PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

Is there specific input data on how to break out of tumble?

And I need to do that more. Cause I don't at all....

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Is there specific input data on how to break out of tumble?

And I need to do that more. Cause I don't at all....

Just spam wiggle when you're in that situation. Beats using a move and being stuck after.

I'm starting to play Melee more these days, probably not ready for tournaments yet but I'm making combo videos out of people again yeeeeeeeee

 

[Pi]

i feel like something bad has just occured.

@strongbad i'm pretty sure, at least certain wiggle animations, can be broken with 1 flick of the control stick
the one i have in mind, and the one i'm pretty sure i've done it out of before, is when samus rising grapple gets interrupted and she enters that tumble animation
if i just tap away, she'll right herself, idk if that differs but i'm fairly certain i've done that before, and showed it to others


grabs vs. samus are good, but if she get's a good spot dodge dsmash off you can be ****ed

and if a missile comes out, you're forced to react to it in some way or another, which hinders your laser play, and allows her to reposition herself on the stage to a more favorable place, if you're just laser camping

also, if you factor in powershielding, the dead zone where falco is in danger from samus countering his lasers becomes pretty large, so i really don't think that sitting and gaying samus out by lasering is the end all option for falco, since he doen't really have reliable kiill setups from the middle of the stage till high high %'s, and 1 bad dsmash/dtilt from samus coupled with a read or two, could be a stock for the bird

samus is anti approach, and her shield is dangerous, but certainly don't think you can't challenge them, i don't want to go into a lot of detail since the bird is already really annoying when he doesn't know what he can do, but there are certainly anti samus shenanigans that are really annoying to deal with. if you think samus is annoying to fight, fight falco as samus.


but any way what i came here to ask was...
my combo's are lacking man, idk what to do, i think i just hesitate and make poor decisions in my follow ups, i give up too many options on prediction and fail to cover as many of my opponents as i could
any advice on going about improving these?

 

[Jake13]

doing so once does not cancel the tumble animation.

Can't say I specifically recall it not getting me out of tumble

But it gets me out of samus' up B stun

Which was the point

 

[Vaccine]

does wiggling out of falcon and ganons dair work?

 

[Pi]

does wiggling out of falcon and ganons dair work?

just to head this off before the confusion and misconceptions set in

wiggling out of the tumble animation, has nothing to do with the hitstun, it's duration, it's speed, it's anything

the only thing you are achieving by 'wiggling out' is stopping your character from 'tumbling' in the air, so that you can air dodge immediately

 

[SSBMLahti]

Just spam wiggle when you're in that situation. Beats using a move and being stuck after.

I'm starting to play Melee more these days, probably not ready for tournaments yet but I'm making combo videos out of people again yeeeeeeeee

*Waits for Happy Feet 4.567*

 

[Biglard]

There's a reason she's never put out to Mario or Luigi.

They're low tiers to her.

What she wants is at least a Captain Falcon.

 

[Mogwai]

1. untumble gives you a chance to accidentally tap jump.
2. you don't have to mash. once you get the timing you can just press it once. mashing b is stil leasier.
3. why would you go off stage?

it just sounds like you haven't tested it. it's seriously good, try it.

1. As errybody else is saying, I just go back and forth so I don't really have this issue

2. probably a pretty good point in this particular case since Samus up B has set hitstun/knockback afaik (thus making the timing easier), but

3. I'm just saying that I get out of all tumbles with control stick wiggling so I don't really see the need to make an exception for coming out of Samus's up B.

mogwai, you dont have to break tumble to grab the edge. i agree with the laser thing, ive been using it for years since i saw chillin do it vs hugs. Whether u use wiggle or laser, the result is the same, laser just gives you a better output/input effort ratio

really? I must be trippin' balls then. still useful so that you can airdodge, but I also thought you missed the ledge while in tumbling... oh well, I'll trust people who play the game regularly over myself at this point.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just spam wiggle when you're in that situation. Beats using a move and being stuck after.

I'm starting to play Melee more these days, probably not ready for tournaments yet but I'm making combo videos out of people again yeeeeeeeee

Niceeeeeeeeee =)

i feel like something bad has just occured.

@strongbad i'm pretty sure, at least certain wiggle animations, can be broken with 1 flick of the control stick
the one i have in mind, and the one i'm pretty sure i've done it out of before, is when samus rising grapple gets interrupted and she enters that tumble animation
if i just tap away, she'll right herself, idk if that differs but i'm fairly certain i've done that before, and showed it to others


grabs vs. samus are good, but if she get's a good spot dodge dsmash off you can be ****ed

and if a missile comes out, you're forced to react to it in some way or another, which hinders your laser play, and allows her to reposition herself on the stage to a more favorable place, if you're just laser camping

also, if you factor in powershielding, the dead zone where falco is in danger from samus countering his lasers becomes pretty large, so i really don't think that sitting and gaying samus out by lasering is the end all option for falco, since he doen't really have reliable kiill setups from the middle of the stage till high high %'s, and 1 bad dsmash/dtilt from samus coupled with a read or two, could be a stock for the bird

samus is anti approach, and her shield is dangerous, but certainly don't think you can't challenge them, i don't want to go into a lot of detail since the bird is already really annoying when he doesn't know what he can do, but there are certainly anti samus shenanigans that are really annoying to deal with. if you think samus is annoying to fight, fight falco as samus.


but any way what i came here to ask was...
my combo's are lacking man, idk what to do, i think i just hesitate and make poor decisions in my follow ups, i give up too many options on prediction and fail to cover as many of my opponents as i could
any advice on going about improving these?

Wish I knew the details =(


And, honestly, I'd combo CPUs to practice learning to combo people. M2K did it pretty well so I imagine you could too. Take all kinds of percents on every stage and see what you can do after every launcher. Sure DI can factor in here but you can also manipulate that and/or combo differently as needed.

Also watching videos of yourself and seeing where your string ended and seeing if you could have followed up at all is really nice, in addition to watching how other Sami combo given similar situations.

Basic combo things I've learned are:

-grabs are beast at lower percents because they can't be CC'd

-tech chases on platforms at any percent are the same so if you can set those up and work them out then that's something reliable(beware of edge canceling opponents!)

-weak moves **** at mid to high percents(mid for gimp type hits and high for flowing into kill moves)

-just because the opponent comes out of hitstun doesn't mean the "combo" is necessarily over
You still get momentum after hitting someone and they'll still feel like they're on the losing end of things until they reset or reverse the momentum, so keep that in mind if you hit someone high or ground them kinda far away after a few successful hits.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus just blows *** at comboing deal with it.

Or fish for more dairs and hit them. I actually think there's a lot of good DI traps with her down smash that could be used more, and her fair is also untapped in terms of combo potential but yeah... I dunno. Her d-tilt seems so unbelievably laggy at times. Maybe I'm missing something but her ground combo potential seems... bad.

I think another common issue I see for Samus players is they don't know how to sweetspot the bair that effectively 'cuz it seems like a way more powerful / good combo finisher than nair.

 

[choknater]

shoutouts to dynadash and uair->fair

 

[Winston]

Samus just blows *** at comboing deal with it.

Or fish for more dairs and hit them. I actually think there's a lot of good DI traps with her down smash that could be used more, and her fair is also untapped in terms of combo potential but yeah... I dunno. Her d-tilt seems so unbelievably laggy at times. Maybe I'm missing something but her ground combo potential seems... bad.

I think another common issue I see for Samus players is they don't know how to sweetspot the bair that effectively 'cuz it seems like a way more powerful / good combo finisher than nair.

Dsmash either sends spacies offstage into a vulnerable spot or combos into bair ><

(Unfortunately at those percents survival DIing the bair means they aren't that bad off, but still...)

So like wd back utilt ground meteor -> dsmash -> profit is pretty good

Also dair on platforms seems to cover hella options. like at least 3 out of 4.

Uhh... that's all I got for samus. Are we sure he was asking about Samus and not Falco though?

 

[flaw]

I have a beginner type question and sorry if it's been covered before. This is a spacing problem I have in most matchups but I'm specifically choosing fox here. So approaching from neutral position, I come down from a SHL and find myself in a weird position. I'm too far away to do any standing move (jab, grab, shine, turn around utilt) but I'm too close to do a run->jump->aerial comfortably, meaning if they shield it I will likely go too far past them to shine when I land.

For an example of what I mean look at 3:21 of this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuCBSNN5v78

What mango does here is dash dance away to get a bit more space and then commits to the aerial. In other situations though he does an awkward aerial, which never seems to work for me. Is running up and grabbing the best choice?

I'd like to maximize my pressure game, and I often build up a lot of momentum in the match and lose it all when this spacing happens

 

[Biglard]

I'm not really a Falco main, but have you tried to run away and start shl over until you're at the right distance?

 

[flaw]

I'm not really a Falco main, but have you tried to run away and start shl over until you're at the right distance?

I can usually reset the situation but I'm not sure that's ideal. A lot of the times the Fox will escape to the platforms again if I back off once I have momentum.

 

[EWC]

The real answer to this question is probably "don't get in that situation in the first place". Ie you need to spend more effort ensuring that your approaching lasers are properly spaced.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a beginner type question and sorry if it's been covered before. This is a spacing problem I have in most matchups but I'm specifically choosing fox here. So approaching from neutral position, I come down from a SHL and find myself in a weird position. I'm too far away to do any standing move (jab, grab, shine, turn around utilt) but I'm too close to do a run->jump->aerial comfortably, meaning if they shield it I will likely go too far past them to shine when I land.

For an example of what I mean look at 3:21 of this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuCBSNN5v78

What mango does here is dash dance away to get a bit more space and then commits to the aerial. In other situations though he does an awkward aerial, which never seems to work for me. Is running up and grabbing the best choice?

I'd like to maximize my pressure game, and I often build up a lot of momentum in the match and lose it all when this spacing happens

Well, there is no "best" solution to this scenario, but rest assured I find it silly myself lol. The fact that it's a pretty good grab spacing means most people will flip out when they see it happen and do something OOS/maybe even roll, so that's why Mango did the DD. Well he either did it for that reason or because he thought Fox would have stayed in shield a split second longer and he wanted to either space his aerial properly or catch him coming OOS with it since Foxes don't ever like sitting in shield long.

Since they like to jump OOS at this spacing, I like to aerial through people at it. Lets me potentially shield stab if I'm wrong or I get a hit while moving with the opponent, which is pretty good for followups usually. Throwing in a DD messes with this timing and can punish OOS attempts executed to counter a quick move to beat out a crossup aerial.

Something Lambchops did that you may find useful here is he would laser at that spacing and then do a tiny dash to laser or just laser forward a little closer before going in. This gave an added layer of depth required to be aware of, and since Falco was closer it tended to scare the opponent way more if they didn't move. Usually though, Falco is close enough to beat out OOS options at that point so it's what you want, unless you just do a really close grab they can't react to in time. The other common option vs spacies from this position is to run up shine/SH shine from that spacing because it will catch them jumping on reaction OOS and usually net good damage since it's a shine.

I suppose you could just wait a second, observe their reaction to your first laser, and then go from there if you want, or you could try more movement ideas like a small WD towards them, or other stuff you might deem to be good. There is no one correct answer, but there are usually a few good mixups you can put together to make the situation come out in your favor if you know it really well. =)

 

[flaw]

Thanks, just that you have thought about this too makes me happy that it's not some mental block I have or that I'm alone. One of my problems is good foxes don't respect my pressure and one reason why is because I fail at this type of situation. It just feels like a big "gap" to me in falco's offense.

I never thought about the grab threat making them jump OOS. I will watch carefully for this next time, I usually don't care to aerial past them but now I understand why, thanks for pointing that out. And as always mixups is the best option

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo Falco's pressure is tough to do on its own so you have to always make them scared of being controlled to lead into it.






I'm getting better vs Fox. Shining to punish landing on platforms is huge, as well as an incredibly well thought out laser game. Also, Bthrow has shown me mad love lately in this matchup <3

I rediscovered that Marth is ******** and Twitch is gay =( I can't get control of the tempo against Marth usually and that makes me too predictable since that means I have to space outside of his range and move slower until I try to find a way in. I think I just need to think on it more and record myself playing it more though.


Not necessarily a discussion topic, but I figured I'd post some of my thoughts after today because I really wanted to haha.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Marth is a really annoying character, for like, everyone. I have the worst time getting in as Fox, cause Marth can just wait for me to try something, and then punish it, and I'm quickly finding that I don't have the patience for that matchup.

Armada has fun with Marth, apparently, but Peach has to be so frustratingly patient in that one, as well. But at least she has turnips.

In short, Marth is very ********. =P

 

[Pi]

marth is easy, learn to samus

 

[choknater]

itt we are ******** and gay

 

[Dr Peepee]

I played it tonight with Fox and Marth in a ditto and I just felt like I could move and get in so much easier than with Falco. This could be a creativity of understanding block or some kind so I'm not sure if that will stay the same or not.

My problem ended up not being with Marth's shield(which I am usually afraid of for some reason) but with him moving so I couldn't get a solid hit or traded a ton/beaten outright. I suppose I need to find a way to force out moves while advancing/getting close, but I have a hard time pulling that off. I'm pretty certain I need to WD forward to solve this problem though, at least in part that will help with it. I'm always afraid to WD towards the opponent and it's such a good idea because it's not a laser or a jump so it's not a typical approach type of thing and it's pretty quick AND Falco can act out of it. This is my reminder to use that stupid thing because I thought of it a few weeks ago and keep forgetting lol.

Also I think Marth himself benefits from WD towards the opponent greatly, especially when the spacing/DD'ing game is going on. I'm sure most characters can find a unique way to use WDs though, just like with any other technique haha.

 

[genkaku]

I was playing around with marth's dair. I think I might switch mains, haha

 

[Strong Badam]

um why? falco has a better one.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Summary of the Falco boards right now: Omg Marth is gay ugh

Summer of the Marth boards all the time: Lol Marth sucks and should be mid tier

 

[genkaku]

for fun!

10funs

 

[Bones0]

Trying to improve my spacies matchups, but I am finding it difficult without actually being able to practice against Fox/Falco players just because they have so much more freedom of movement than other characters (against whom I can reasonably figure out general stuff for and then calibrate for specific players).

Specifically, one of the issues I keep running into is my shine staling as I try to shine-waveland onto plats to continue combos. I am dropping combos much earlier than I should be, and it's definitely one of the main reasons. I was trying to substitute waveland-utilts/tech chasing when I get them on the plats, but I'm just struggling to keep them on the defensive as it's hard to follow their DI after an utilt and if I tech chase I typically end up grabbing them and am not too good at punishing off of throws (though I probably just need to work on those vs. CPUs).

The second major issue I have is what to do after spacing past them. Sometimes I nair or dair past their shields (too far to shine) and I've tried utilting as well as bairing asap, but neither seems very reliable. I find myself trading a lot or just whiffing completely, and I'm starting to wonder if this is just a bad idea in general because shine OoS tends to destroy any options I have from this spacing.

Third issue I feel is holding me back are lasers. When I'm playing against Marth, I have no problem at all spacing lasers and pinning down my opponent, but Fox is much more agile on platforms (I laser them from the bottom, they jump up to side platforms, I make a futile attempt to dash dance to outspace their aerial from above). As far as Falco, I just get caught in seemingly random laser fights where we SHL eachother and one of us gets flattened by an approach because they couldn't react to the laser or because they shielded.

Examples of all of these from my most recent tournament (albeit, pretty long ago...). Not trying to turn this into a critique of me specifically though, just general stuff that applies to anyone. >_>

0:45- Spaced past Fox and ate a shine OoS
1:10 - Spaced past Fox and whiffed a bair
2:50 - Giving up way too much space because Fox is using the side plat (feels very similar to Peach floating above your lasers where I just have to run from a fair or roll behind them...)

I didn't shine-waveland then, so there aren't any examples of that.

 

[JPOBS]

specifically t the spacing at 0:45 you definitely could have shined, or probably even shielded, but you let him dair you oos.

usually though if I overshoot an aerial past their shield I just gtfo and run away and restablish laser positioning. Or shield->wait for their oos option-> punish

at 1:10 you only whiffed the bair cuz you tried to run away->bair and had too much momentum. You couldnt shine cuz you were a far bit pass him. Again, if you had just shielded, you could have easily punished OOS. Depending on the situation and your percents, sometimes I go for a uptilt in those situations, it intentionally trades, but falco recovers first and you can death combo. Also, you *might* be able to aerial past->CC if you anticipate a bair like he did, and then cc shine. Idk how reliable it is though because I don't do it much but the theory seems sound

Lasering vs fox is hard. I can't really help you because I try not to use many lasers vs fox unless my opponent seems particularly inept at dealing with them. I try to use less lasers because they tend to leave you very vulnerable. I try to limit my lasering and not "lock him down", and instead shoot lasers only situationaly and rely on other tactics like cc, shild, uptilts, and defensive bairs to deal with him. This is a stylistic thing though. Lasers can't contain fox well enough and I don't trust them. But I know a lot of people will read this and think I'm crazy for not trying to shoot his brains out.

What do you mean you stall in your shine during platform combos? sounds like some simple technical practice could work throguh it. at 2:50 you could have shined him in mid air and wavelanded to the top platform and did more stuff di dependent

 

[Winston]

^He said 'stale', which I assume means it stales to the point where if they miss the tech on the platform and he shines them they float up without stun.

uhh, some quick thoughts @ bones:

-if you land too far to shine them, why are you getting shine oosed by them?

-if you delay your aerial slightly you can usually control where you land relative to them a bit better, as well as being safer on block.

-some options you have if you land behind them:

for the most part them going for a bair oos or something like that shouldn't hit you. they don't have enough time to do that

utilt/bair should beat an immediate action from them, but if they just wait for it they get to reset. If you cross them up with an early aerial and you go for a bair, be aware that they could wd oos before the bair and then punish, so don't always do this

you can also just... turn around and laser them again

 

[mers]

If shine is staled AT ALL (as in, you've hit with it at any point during your stock), you can't shine someone who has been knocked over. You generally shouldn't be trying to do this ever. Just jump/DJ above them, or stay below them, or waveland onto the platform and wait if you think they won't getup attack.

 

[Niko45]

Summary of the Falco boards right now: Omg Marth is gay ugh

Summer of the Marth boards all the time: Lol Marth sucks and should be mid tier

I hate fighting Marth when I play Falco its so gay.

But I also hate fighting Falco as Marth sometimes cause it can also be really gay.

 

[Max?]

People need to take notes from PC Kip.

 

[Mogwai]

he's just a carbon copy of my vs. Marth game as far as I can tell

pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair pew pew pew bair bair bair

 

[Bones0]

specifically t the spacing at 0:45 you definitely could have shined, or probably even shielded, but you let him dair you oos.

usually though if I overshoot an aerial past their shield I just gtfo and run away and restablish laser positioning. Or shield->wait for their oos option-> punish

at 1:10 you only whiffed the bair cuz you tried to run away->bair and had too much momentum. You couldnt shine cuz you were a far bit pass him. Again, if you had just shielded, you could have easily punished OOS. Depending on the situation and your percents, sometimes I go for a uptilt in those situations, it intentionally trades, but falco recovers first and you can death combo. Also, you *might* be able to aerial past->CC if you anticipate a bair like he did, and then cc shine. Idk how reliable it is though because I don't do it much but the theory seems sound

Lasering vs fox is hard. I can't really help you because I try not to use many lasers vs fox unless my opponent seems particularly inept at dealing with them. I try to use less lasers because they tend to leave you very vulnerable. I try to limit my lasering and not "lock him down", and instead shoot lasers only situationaly and rely on other tactics like cc, shild, uptilts, and defensive bairs to deal with him. This is a stylistic thing though. Lasers can't contain fox well enough and I don't trust them. But I know a lot of people will read this and think I'm crazy for not trying to shoot his brains out.

What do you mean you stall in your shine during platform combos? sounds like some simple technical practice could work throguh it. at 2:50 you could have shined him in mid air and wavelanded to the top platform and did more stuff di dependent

I meant what Winston said, when your shine stales and they don't go into tumble so they can nair/jump away immediately after the hit. The rest of your advice sounds pretty solid and I'm definitely remembering seeing other players shield after crossups so I will have to try that out and see how I can use it.

^He said 'stale', which I assume means it stales to the point where if they miss the tech on the platform and he shines them they float up without stun.

uhh, some quick thoughts @ bones:

-if you land too far to shine them, why are you getting shine oosed by them?

-if you delay your aerial slightly you can usually control where you land relative to them a bit better, as well as being safer on block.

-some options you have if you land behind them:

for the most part them going for a bair oos or something like that shouldn't hit you. they don't have enough time to do that

utilt/bair should beat an immediate action from them, but if they just wait for it they get to reset. If you cross them up with an early aerial and you go for a bair, be aware that they could wd oos before the bair and then punish, so don't always do this

you can also just... turn around and laser them again

I have definitely been getting hit OoS mostly by stuff I could have avoided by simply dashing/WDing away after the aerial so shielding will help on that account. I'll also keep in mind lasering again.

Thanks both of you. I can see a lot of new ways to abuse the cross up spacing. Still curious on tips to deal with shine staling for platform wavelands if anyone has anything specific. Should I just be ending the combos after a single shine on a plat by bairing them off stage and trying to edgeguard?

 

[Max?]

For the record Mogwai is pretty ****ing good vs. Marth.

 

[Mogwai]

I'm not much good vs. anyone right now, lol. But I used to be ok at that matchup.

I think the only matchup I'd still be good at is the vs. Nando matchup since I'm still in TFS, .

 

[Max?]

Nando is like 0 - 10000 vs. our crew.

Whoops, had that backwards there. Can't be letting people think that kid is good.

 

[Mogwai]

Nando is good. Just not vs. TFS, it's a curse.