Max?
Smash Champion
I just think a majority of the planet is absolutely god awful vs. Falcon for some reason.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Why don't the stale shines work? Are you talking about just when they miss techs? If I push someone up there and I they miss a tech and my shine is staled then I either wait for them to move so I can shine them out of stun or I just hit them with Uair or something(depends on %). That waveland thing is good too but I always forget about it haha. OH, and they usually tech against me if I push them up so that's kinda weird as well because I don't think I'm in that situation much(Twitch techs like everything though so I'm probably biased lol....Mango would probably miss techs on purpose like a bit guh).Trying to improve my spacies matchups, but I am finding it difficult without actually being able to practice against Fox/Falco players just because they have so much more freedom of movement than other characters (against whom I can reasonably figure out general stuff for and then calibrate for specific players).
Specifically, one of the issues I keep running into is my shine staling as I try to shine-waveland onto plats to continue combos. I am dropping combos much earlier than I should be, and it's definitely one of the main reasons. I was trying to substitute waveland-utilts/tech chasing when I get them on the plats, but I'm just struggling to keep them on the defensive as it's hard to follow their DI after an utilt and if I tech chase I typically end up grabbing them and am not too good at punishing off of throws (though I probably just need to work on those vs. CPUs).
The second major issue I have is what to do after spacing past them. Sometimes I nair or dair past their shields (too far to shine) and I've tried utilting as well as bairing asap, but neither seems very reliable. I find myself trading a lot or just whiffing completely, and I'm starting to wonder if this is just a bad idea in general because shine OoS tends to destroy any options I have from this spacing.
Third issue I feel is holding me back are lasers. When I'm playing against Marth, I have no problem at all spacing lasers and pinning down my opponent, but Fox is much more agile on platforms (I laser them from the bottom, they jump up to side platforms, I make a futile attempt to dash dance to outspace their aerial from above). As far as Falco, I just get caught in seemingly random laser fights where we SHL eachother and one of us gets flattened by an approach because they couldn't react to the laser or because they shielded.
Examples of all of these from my most recent tournament (albeit, pretty long ago...). Not trying to turn this into a critique of me specifically though, just general stuff that applies to anyone. >_>
0:45- Spaced past Fox and ate a shine OoS
1:10 - Spaced past Fox and whiffed a bair
2:50 - Giving up way too much space because Fox is using the side plat (feels very similar to Peach floating above your lasers where I just have to run from a fair or roll behind them...)
I didn't shine-waveland then, so there aren't any examples of that.
That depends on how far your spacing goes. Technically the other spacie can react first usually, so I'd say just observe what they do instead of always trying to beat their move out if it's not working. If they WD away then start lasering, and if they jump then....I guess punish that however you want lol. If you're close enough to get shined OOS then you should probably be delaying your move so you can shine first. Not sure what else to say about that lol.
The shiz/chops- DJ double lasering onto a side platform when the Fox goes up. A pretty reliable method but you could get baited and ***** for it so don't ALWAYS do it imo. also, if you know the aerial is coming, then DD but then crouch so you can CC punish. If you can't CC punish then move in such a way that you are only around to get hit when they aren't quite there and then you can WD/SHL away and see what you get off of positional baits like that.
Falco dittos you should mix in PS'ing and how high you laser and lasers from platforms/DJ double lasering. That tends to give variety and strategy and approaches to the matchup haha.
Well if Mango can do it I suppose you can too haha. I've tried doing things like that before and either I don't react/predict correctly or that style just isn't for me. Props for doing it your own way though. I find that lasering a little less allows one to read more, so good stuff. =)
Pretty much exactly how I feel lmao. Although I never get to fight Falco with Marth. =(I hate fighting Marth when I play Falco its so gay.
But I also hate fighting Falco as Marth sometimes cause it can also be really gay.
I don't know if you're asking specifically about Samus combos, but here's my advice.
Don't worry about combos. The reason most Samus players don't combo that much is because frankly her combos don't hold a candle, control or damage-wise to her edgeguards. And her most effective combos usually aren't that long, and tend to lead into her edgeguard game. But as combos go, it'll be important to start hitconfirming as soon as possible on dtilt, utilt and dash attack, as all three are really good combo moves at varying percents.
Little England
Smash Master
I've never wavedashed towards Marth in my life lol, but I can see how it would be effective. Can you explain your application of this?
Well, coming from a more defensive base, I tend to only attack still when I feel secure in doing so. I don't always make the best moves that give me an easier/trickier time attacking though, as my offense is still somewhat patterned. This leads to me screwing around outside of Marth's range(which is quite far) and I can't bank on surprise approaches like I like to do against Marth. I decided that the reason I can't do that is because I act too predictably once I am forced to respect that range, so I'd need to push into Marth's "wall" in some way in order to offset his spacing, and I would rather do it with movement than lasers because I understand movement better and Marth handles lasers really well. *Note: Anything that allows me to use less lasers sometimes is great, because not expecting the laser is the best way to make the laser better when you use it again. I really need to write about this idea I have(deals with any big move).....anyway....*
So, if I can commit to a WD out of a DD or a laser or just from standing still, then that is quick space I can take against Marth. I feel comfortable taking this space occasionally because Marth won't be looking to punish DDs but mostly aerials and lasers from set distances he can usually control. If I begin WD'ing in on him then that's another trick he must take into account and have to adjust his spacing for, even though I believe the trick is suboptimal as a standalone tactic(haven't tested yet though so I could be wrong).
Side comment, but WD'ing in general is just **** because you get all of your standing options out of it, and momentum if you want to do an aerial. This is basically why walking helps as well, because you have all of your options but you're moving around so it's a subtle but potent type of spacing in my opinion. That's why all the old school Marths walked a lot, he had big moves to constantly threaten with and he moved around somewhat quickly via walking so he could Fsmash or Fair at any time to beat out most moves if he wanted to.
Uhhh, that's pretty much it lol. I guess all that's left is what I would do out of the WD, which would be aerials or maybe dash attack but probably not, or Ftilts(I see myself WD Ftilting some but I'm not sure if I'll commit to that yet or not despite it's potential....hard tactic for me to understand and use properly). or momentum-based Bair. I guess it could help me grab too haha.
I wanted to play Twitch's Marth again since I thought of this idea but didn't get the chance. =( Hopefully I'll get to play it tonight/tomorrow before I leave for a tourney.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What sort of applications were you thinking about using WDing forward for? I frequently WD towards Marth, but I pretty much only use it for chasing them down. Most Marths prefer to WD/dashdance away from spacy approaches rather than shield because his shield is so bad, and getting out of shield pressure is so dangerous. When they retreat to avoid a SHFFL, I dash into a WD to close the gap and then aerial. Unless Marth is retreating like that though, I don't know how else I would use a forward WD. Any time Marth is facing me, I'm too worried about getting grabbed to WD in. I'd rather be lasering or using an aerial.
Winston
Smash Master
is using a WD faster than just running? Or do you use it because the animation is trickier/you have more options out of it
Veetaak
Smash Lord
I feel like mixing WD with running is the fastest for some reason 
Fortress | Sveet
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i think walking is actually falco's fastest movement. I know its faster than his run for some weird *** reason
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
the bird's double WD is the true hotness
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
ron knows.
cause he's ron.
:falcodorf:
edit: i imagine falco with ganon's fair. LOL. falcodorf would ****.
cause he's ron.
:falcodorf:
edit: i imagine falco with ganon's fair. LOL. falcodorf would ****.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
falco with knee is better. shine knee
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Falcon with Falco's lasers?
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
falcon chooses to make this game fair by keeping his piece in the holster
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
^this guy knows
First of all, I would never worry about getting grabbed WD'ing into Marth because he should never be just sitting around waiting for me to do that. If he's just standing around, then I need to shoot him to get him to move. WD'ing is more about pushing into his space and forcing him off balance than an actual approach you can do whenever you feel like it(I'm not sure how common those types of approaches are anyway but I had nothing to compare my actual intention to lol).
On top of this, WD'ing forward forces Marth to add another thing he must remember I'm doing to his head. He has to learn to look for the WD as well as everything else. The more you force Marth to deal with, the better you can use each option in a tricky way. If I always laser at a certain spacing, but then wait, aerial, DD, WD, or laser again from that position, then that is quite a bit for Marth to react to. If I don't laser at all and just move around, then Marth has to take a second to readjust, since I wouldn't be shooting. It's little things like that which net you hits and kills and such that I'm working with here, but overall my goal is to expand my approach and my movement game with Falco. Marth is a big challenge to that though, so I have to be sure I can move well to get in on his range because lasers don't make his sword length go away and they certainly don't force his approach usually lol.
Really? Very interesting.
crush
Smash Master
Little England
Smash Master
loool. This was funny to me for some reason. Thanks for these recent posts man. Really got mah wheels turnin.
mers
Smash Ace
Wait, no way.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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I thought characters had to accelerate to a top walking speed unlike dashing which consists of a fixed initial dash speed straight into a top running speed.
100% sure. Falco's max walking speed > Falco's max run speed. It's really odd.
But yea as someone else has said, you have to accelerate into a walk whereas a dash accelerates faster. Dash -> WD -> Walk is what I do to move quickly, but I'm unsure of whether that's optimal.
But yea as someone else has said, you have to accelerate into a walk whereas a dash accelerates faster. Dash -> WD -> Walk is what I do to move quickly, but I'm unsure of whether that's optimal.
Pi
Smash Hero
i wasn't talking strictly about hitstun combo's, but more of after i get the hit how do i continue pressure and preserve momentum, that's what i lack. i hitconfirm too much and end up hesitating on my follow ups, which even though i might not be able to hit them again i should be in a much better position if i didn't hesitate, and be able to trade/make them scared and put pressure on them.
i'm not going for long outrageous combo's that aren't effective, i just am bad at riding momentum after the first hit
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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- 19,345
Mogwai, you should tell me what type of dog this is.
I'm liking it as much as I like beagles.
I'm liking it as much as I like beagles.
It's a corgi
All my gifs and avatar are corgis.
EDIT: Technically they're Pembroke Welsh Corgis, there are also Cardigan Corgis, but people usually think of the Pembroke when they think of Corgis.
All my gifs and avatar are corgis.
EDIT: Technically they're Pembroke Welsh Corgis, there are also Cardigan Corgis, but people usually think of the Pembroke when they think of Corgis.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
why so many corgis?
the fact that you're even asking the question means that you just don't get it.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Too many corgis is like too many lasers.
It just doesn't happen.
It just doesn't happen.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i obviously dont get it, which is why I asked. you didnt really answer anything.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
i like the second one the most
Sinji
Smash Master
Too much corgis too much lasers+camping falco
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I do have a question, what do Falcos do when being pressured by spaced aerials and mixups in shield.. I seem to have a hard time responding to pressure like that, I'm not exactly sure what to do since I feel like if I do throw out an aerial it'll probably miss because I think obviously I'm being baited. Is Falco forced to go back into a somewhat neutral position in order to find another opportunity to attack? Or is there something you can do instantly? I'm looking at this from like Falco dittos or Fox/Falco I guess. I mean spaced aerials like for example fade back dair on shield or overshot aerials when you cannot shine OOS. Or just spaced bair too I guess.
Winston
Smash Master
laser out of shield
Dair OOS, laser OOS, WD OOS, FH OOS. Those are the main responses to situations like that. If one of those doesn't work, then you executed at the wrong time lol(they expected one of those responses in other words).
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya of course, you gotta obviously recognize what the opponent is doing first to respond correctly and he won't always do the same thing either.. it's pretty tough. =P Thanks. =) Well I guess that's another reason why it's more mind boggling since Falco does have more options than I'm used to, so guessing correctly seems even harder. I guess I gotta find ways to limit options the best or something along those lines.
D
Deleted member
Guest
if falco had knee for a fair, he still wouldn't be the best conclusively.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
lol indeed. we ganon mains are used to picking the one option that almost works.
rolling.
and maybe aerial oos.
lol.
rolling.
and maybe aerial oos.
lol.
G
genkaku
Guest
yeah, but who in their right minds would main any other character?
Fortress | Sveet
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Actually... i might disagree. Knee is ****ing broken and kills at 70%, making falco combo off shine and kill at much lower percents than fox.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
giving him knee would be a significant improvement but i think not a gamebreaking one. I'd agree he'd probably be the best at that point (since he's already pretty close), but like, landing a shine against most characters around 70% already gives you a pretty reasonable chance at landing a kill. upping that chance to near-100% wouldn't revolutionize the game.