PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Fortress | Sveet]

were talking about knee->jab on shield. Of course you can shield the other 2.

 

[crush]

Anyone know the percents on certain stages for when dthrow knee kills peach?

 

[JPOBS]

were talking about knee->jab on shield. Of course you can shield the other 2.

how tho?

Aren't jabs typically at frame disadvantage on shields? and if thats the case, should you be able to grab between the first and second jab of the gentlemen because shield stun doesn't stack?

or am i missing a fundamental concept..

 

[Bones0]

StrongBad just needs to come in here and clear all this **** up. :|

 

[~Tac~]

Anyone know the percents on certain stages for when dthrow knee kills peach?

Yoshi's center stage when grabbed at 65.

FD's center stage at 95. Somewhere between 85-90 anywhere else if sent outwards.

Dreamland doesn't exist.

Stadium at 85-90, center stage.

IIRC, reverse kneeing from dthrow kills at about +10-15% to those.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

how tho?

Aren't jabs typically at frame disadvantage on shields? and if thats the case, should you be able to grab between the first and second jab of the gentlemen because shield stun doesn't stack?

or am i missing a fundamental concept..

how do you shield multiple hits on your shield? you continue to hold L/R...

am i speaking english wrong or something?

 

[Strong Badam]

Aren't jabs typically at frame disadvantage on shields? and if thats the case, should you be able to grab between the first and second jab of the gentlemen because shield stun doesn't stack?

gentleman's too fast to shieldgrab. you need 7 frames of advantage to do so and there are definitely not even 7 frames between each hit.

 

[Bones0]

Jeez, thanks. I thought I was losing it when people were like "yeah man, just shield grab IN BETWEEN HIS JABS." @_@

 

[Pi]

phew
i was scared you guys were actually discussing samus in here

 

[unknown522]

how tho?

Aren't jabs typically at frame disadvantage on shields? and if thats the case, should you be able to grab between the first and second jab of the gentlemen because shield stun doesn't stack?

or am i missing a fundamental concept..

i think he was talking about gentlemen

but yeah, when you finish jabbing, then you are at frame disadvantage, but you can't grab between the hits.

 

[Mokumo]

Knee on shield -> grab can work too but I feel safer going for the gentleman instead

 

[Mogwai]

holy ****, next comment asking something about Falcon is getting infracted.

 

[Cactuar]

What if it is specifically about Falco vs Falcon?

 

[Mogwai]

What if it is specifically about Falco vs Falcon?

You know what I mean

 

[Max?]

I have bad news for you...

LOL, I def meant the knee, but still Falco with shine is pretty good.

 

[Lightsyde]

So what do you guys think Falcon uses his gun for?

It's obvious he'd have a much better match up vs spacies, Marth or Peach if he busted it out. His run speed and aerial momentum would make camping pretty viable.

Also, do you think Falcon's visor just has little white triangles painted on to it or are his eyes legitimately shining so brightly (and triangularly) that they show through a solid black visor?

These questions need to be considered amongst the brightest minds of Melee. Falco players obviously know best, here with the likes of greats like Doctor PeePee, Mang0 and Mogwai-are-you-so-mad.

 

[Lightsyde]

Alright, cool, now that I have my infraction, I'll make my argument.

It is ridiculous to complain about people coming into a thread labeled "Dr Peepee's Discussion thread" asking questions/having general Melee matchup discussion. He is, for all intents and purposes, the best Melee player/spacies player who can actually (and does) post on SWF. He is a Falco main so this thread was made in the Falco boards, however conversation topics have broadened to a lot of general discussion.

From a moderators perspective, I could see why people posting non-Falco specific things on the Falco baords would be annoying. But realistically, any conversation that sparks up about a technique (eg: Frama data conversation about Falcon's Gentlemen) is still super useful information as you will undoubtedly have to fight Captain Falcon at some point. There is literally no free exchange of information of that nature which can hamper or hurt your understanding of Melee, which is the inevitable goal if you are, in fact, trying to be pro/top level.

Rather than complaining, infracting, or whatever, why not guide conversation about something not directly Falco related to be understood as information which can be utilized while playing Falco? Think of a technique another character can do that you understanding will hurt your ability to Falco. There isn't one.

I understand keeping things on topic, but people of all skill levels come here to get advice from Dr Peepee, as well as the slew of MBR members and other notables who frequent the thread. There is literally no reason to stress in this manner, if you understand the importance and use of this thread in a more full context.

 

[Max?]

The moral of the story here? Don't **** with mogwai

 

[Lightsyde]

The moral of the story is mods are super short sighted when it comes to the actual purpose of threads if they are only dominantly just serving their own need to be in control. I got infracted on purpose and it will expire in two weeks and nothing in my life will be one iota worse for it.

I hope that Mogwai will post a legitimate response; I am fairly certain it will either be a) fallacious and guilty of what I am basically insinuating, which is power tripping while neglecting that everyone is here to learn or b) a really rational argument which he has not made here so far that explains how general knowledge will not benefit your Falco playing abilities.

EDIT: And for reference, I don't have a problem with Mogwai, I don't really know him at all, and he knows a lot about Melee. I have a problem with him criticizing and self-imposing limitations on flows of information (about a game we all play) in a widely utilized and watched thread. All information pertinent to tournament Melee is also pertinent to Falco in that regard, as he is a character in that game.

 

[sanchaz]

so...why is samus in the title? lol

 

[Mogwai]

Alright, cool, now that I have my infraction, I'll make my argument.

It is ridiculous to complain about people coming into a thread labeled "Dr Peepee's Discussion thread" asking questions/having general Melee matchup discussion. He is, for all intents and purposes, the best Melee player/spacies player who can actually (and does) post on SWF. He is a Falco main so this thread was made in the Falco boards, however conversation topics have broadened to a lot of general discussion.

From a moderators perspective, I could see why people posting non-Falco specific things on the Falco baords would be annoying. But realistically, any conversation that sparks up about a technique (eg: Frama data conversation about Falcon's Gentlemen) is still super useful information as you will undoubtedly have to fight Captain Falcon at some point. There is literally no free exchange of information of that nature which can hamper or hurt your understanding of Melee, which is the inevitable goal if you are, in fact, trying to be pro/top level.

Rather than complaining, infracting, or whatever, why not guide conversation about something not directly Falco related to be understood as information which can be utilized while playing Falco? Think of a technique another character can do that you understanding will hurt your ability to Falco. There isn't one.

I understand keeping things on topic, but people of all skill levels come here to get advice from Dr Peepee, as well as the slew of MBR members and other notables who frequent the thread. There is literally no reason to stress in this manner, if you understand the importance and use of this thread in a more full context.

That might be how you feel about the thread, but I consider this the last bastion of intelligible discourse related to Falco in melee. I let the little side tangents go, but we've been stuck on talking about Falcon for too long and I put my foot down. You wanna talk about Falcon, I hear he actually still has his own character section too. Besides, you didn't bring the conversation back to Falco, you just trolled me for telling the thread to get back. Don't dig yourself into a deeper hole by martyring yourself in the war against the mods.

Also, you know better than to double post.

 

[Bones0]

Samus is in the title because there was extensive discussion of Falco vs. Samus a few pages back.

Lightsyde, your argument is shaky at best. PP hasn't contributed anything to the conversation about Falcon because it was simple frame data stuff in relation to knee -> gentlemen. The entire conversation only started because people were lulzing at the idea of Falco having his own knee, and it never should have gone further than that. Obviously if someone wanted PP's input on something not related to Falco, they could either PM him or link him to the discussion in another forum. If it's some real quick question it won't be a big deal, but a page long discussion completely devoid of anything Falco related is pretty stupid considering this is a thread by a Falco main in the Falco forums that has been dominated by Falco discussion since its creation.

 

[JPOBS]

I still really wanna know the frame data about knee->gentlemen. I don't see how that not falco related, cuz I'm pretty sure falcon's do knee gentlemen on shield vs falco anyway.

I guess I could pm someone like strongbad, but just happened to come up in this thread. *shrug*

 

[Lightsyde]

That might be how you feel about the thread, but I consider this the last bastion of intelligible discourse related to Falco in melee. I let the little side tangents go, but we've been stuck on talking about Falcon for too long and I put my foot down. You wanna talk about Falcon, I hear he actually still has his own character section too. Besides, you didn't bring the conversation back to Falco, you just trolled me for telling the thread to get back. Don't dig yourself into a deeper hole by martyring yourself in the war against the mods.

Also, you know better than to double post.

It's not about how I feel about the thread; it's the fact that general information is pertinent to Falco in a Falco thread. You put up with people talking about Falco having a knee but "put your foot down" when people started discussing frame data on the gentlemen. I have no problem with you stopping silly discussion, but most the time I see you whine about being off topic, people are actually discussing things related to Falco, directly or indirectly.

And this thread is infinitely more helpful and informative and easily accessed by anyone who wants general discussion with high level players. We get people who main tons of characters in this thread talking, it's obvious this is not a Falco only thread.

EDIT: I super do not care about being martyr'd and I extra don't care about the war vs mods. I just wanted you to seeing you let stupid discussions slide all the time and then interrupt half the time during interesting stuff, if it doesn't align with your strict definition of "relavant to Falco".

Samus is in the title because there was extensive discussion of Falco vs. Samus a few pages back.

Lightsyde, your argument is shaky at best. PP hasn't contributed anything to the conversation about Falcon because it was simple frame data stuff in relation to knee -> gentlemen. The entire conversation only started because people were lulzing at the idea of Falco having his own knee, and it never should have gone further than that. Obviously if someone wanted PP's input on something not related to Falco, they could either PM him or link him to the discussion in another forum. If it's some real quick question it won't be a big deal, but a page long discussion completely devoid of anything Falco related is pretty stupid considering this is a thread by a Falco main in the Falco forums that has been dominated by Falco discussion since its creation.

You misunderstood the point I was making. I used the Falcon gentlemen discussion, as explicitly stated, as an example. I have seen Mogwai stop numerous discussions that were interesting/informative purely because they did not pertain purely to Falco, which I was saying, is ridiculous because if happens in tournament play, it does pertain to Falco. Where was Mogwai ending that silly discussion?

Obviously, if they didn't know PP but wanted to ask him a question, they would go to a thread with his name on it and just ask because they aren't concerned with a black and white view of how to post in particular threads. Most people who read this thread probably just check their User CP. People obviously find this a good medium to ask questions about anything so they do, and they should be able to, whether or not it has direct implications about Falco. Saying they should PM him or link him outside creates more work for him (he already gets a ton of these type of questions/requests for critiques), when he could just answer in his discussion thread for everyone's benefit. A lot of the time people come in asking questions for Kevin, but other knowledeable players answer before he gets to answer.

EDIT:

I still really wanna know the frame data about knee->gentlemen. I don't see how that not falco related, cuz I'm pretty sure falcon's do knee gentlemen on shield vs falco anyway.

I guess I could pm someone like strongbad, but just happened to come up in this thread. *shrug*

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Do people not listen in this thread? I swear the knee and gentlemen frame data has been posted like 5 times. Then theres 10x that many posts in spam and i guess people miss the answer and just repost the question. Then we get stuck in loops like that.

Actually i'm pretty frustrated with how much bull**** is repeated on this site. Can we start a rule about frame data that you MUST USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION FIRST? I mean, knee to gentlemen is very easy to look up.

 

[Mogwai]

It's not about how I feel about the thread; it's the fact that general information is pertinent to Falco in a Falco thread. You put up with people talking about Falco having a knee but "put your foot down" when people started discussing frame data on the gentlemen. I have no problem with you stopping silly discussion, but most the time I see you whine about being off topic, people are actually discussing things related to Falco, directly or indirectly.

And this thread is infinitely more helpful and informative and easily accessed by anyone who wants general discussion with high level players. We get people who main tons of characters in this thread talking, it's obvious this is not a Falco only thread.

Fine, propose to MLG that the entire concept of sub-forums is pointless then. At this point, you might be right. However, as long as this is the Falco specific subforum, I'm going to hold discussion to stay relevant to that. Sure, the Falco having a knee tangent was silly, but w/e, I'm not going to shut down the thread when it gets a little silly, we're all friends here. However, when this thread starts dealing with discussion of when Falcon's dthrow will kill Peach, I intervened. Note that this whole argument could've just been avoided by making this post:

Ok, well, if I'm Falco, what am I supposed to do when Falcon knees my shield?

But instead you're instigating drama when I try to prevent the thread from derailing.

btw, the answer is roll or don't get caught with a knee all up in your shield to begin with. Being -1 and caught in your shield isn't a good place to be.

 

[JPOBS]

Do people not listen in this thread? I swear the knee and gentlemen frame data has been posted like 5 times. Then theres 10x that many posts in spam and i guess people miss the answer and just repost the question. Then we get stuck in loops like that.

Actually i'm pretty frustrated with how much bull**** is repeated on this site. Can we start a rule about frame data that you MUST USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION FIRST? I mean, knee to gentlemen is very easy to look up.

I'll admit I somehow missed strongbad's post the first time around.

I saw yours though, and all you said was "ya, just continue to hold L/R", which didn't answer my question at all.
And unknown pretty much said "ya you can't grab it"

which is fine I don't really mind. Like I said, my fault for missing SB's post but like, chill out bro.

 

[Lightsyde]

Fine, propose to MLG that the entire concept of sub-forums is pointless then. At this point, you might be right. However, as long as this is the Falco specific subforum, I'm going to hold discussion to stay relevant to that. Sure, the Falco having a knee tangent was silly, but w/e, I'm not going to shut down the thread when it gets a little silly, we're all friends here. However, when this thread starts dealing with discussion of when Falcon's dthrow will kill Peach, I intervened. Note that this whole argument could've just been avoided by making this post:

But instead you're instigating drama when I try to prevent the thread from derailing.

btw, the answer is roll or don't get caught with a knee all up in your shield to begin with. Being -1 and caught in your shield isn't a good place to be.

This is an argument only in so far as I am questioning why you allow spam and not pertinent discussion of any topic. You say "we're all friends here" but that is definitely not the way you act, post or the vibe you seem to shoot for in this thread...unless you're talking to MBR members. Kevin mods this thread too and doesn't make it feel nearly as unpleasant.

And you can call it instigating drama if you want, I just wanted to point out that you complain and derail good conversation semi-regularly while claiming to be upholding some misplaced sense of zeal about your "last bastion" of Falco elitism.

I obviously did not need/want to ask the above question; I took this opportunity to demonstrate how I thought you do things wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its not just you. Seriously, the majority of smashboards is just recycling information. I'm sure literally everything in this game has already been discussed, all you have to do is look in the right places. We have guides for common strategies and combos, we have charts and formulas for all the frame data you can imagine, but still people ask the questions. I suppose its partially my fault, and the fault of the people who answer the questions. We should have said a long time ago "this is public information, stop being lazy and search"


edit- @lightsyde you mind cutting the crap? The moderators on these boards are VERY NICE. They don't infract as often as they could, and i'd definitely like to keep it that way. Mogwai clearly said "cut the falcon talk" and you took that as an opportunity to push him. Grow up.

 

[Lightsyde]

Its not just you. Seriously, the majority of smashboards is just recycling information. I'm sure literally everything in this game has already been discussed, all you have to do is look in the right places. We have guides for common strategies and combos, we have charts and formulas for all the frame data you can imagine, but still people ask the questions. I suppose its partially my fault, and the fault of the people who answer the questions. We should have said a long time ago "this is public information, stop being lazy and search"


edit- @lightsyde you mind cutting the crap? The moderators on these boards are VERY NICE. They don't infract as often as they could, and i'd definitely like to keep it that way. Mogwai clearly said "cut the falcon talk" and you took that as an opportunity to push him. Grow up.

You could say "this is public information, stop being lazy and search" but people like having information explained specifically to them, in the context of their question. This thread does serve as a quick "answer my question" for more complicated things, whether you like it or not. Also, the search function on this site is confusing/annoying to new users/people who don't use it very frequently.

And I took the opportunity to question why he acts like he does when plenty of other moderators do not act this way. Some of them are nice, some of them are not. I've been on forums for a long time and have experienced both extremes; I was merely trying to demonstrate my point. Nothing about the way I argued (point by point, even cited examples) necessitated a "grow up"; you just don't agree with me.

EDIT: And yeah, basically the point Winston makes. All the threads you propose searching for are massively outdated by a constantly evolving metagame. This thread is where a lot of the newest stuff comes to light.

EDIT: And honestly, I've said all I wanted to and Mogwai is clearly not going to take this advice to heart, so I am done with trying to push this further.

 

[Winston]

Its not just you. Seriously, the majority of smashboards is just recycling information. I'm sure literally everything in this game has already been discussed, all you have to do is look in the right places. We have guides for common strategies and combos, we have charts and formulas for all the frame data you can imagine, but still people ask the questions. I suppose its partially my fault, and the fault of the people who answer the questions. We should have said a long time ago "this is public information, stop being lazy and search"

I agree that a lot of discussion on smashboards is rehashing the same questions that come up over and over, but it's partially because most of our stickies/guides in the character forums are so outdated/bad. They don't talk about the basic flowchart combos, edgeguarding option coverage, important zones for matchups, neutral game RPS situations, etc. It's mostly specific details about mechanics (how to do techniques, frame data) or purely qualitative writeups of matchups.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You could say "this is public information, stop being lazy and search" but people like having information explained specifically to them, in the context of their question. This thread does serve as a quick "answer my question" for more complicated things, whether you like it or not. Also, the search function on this site is confusing/annoying to new users/people who don't use it very frequently.

Underlined Johns and bolded laziness

If you want to get good at this game you have to put forth some effort. Even if everything about the game was shoved in your face it wouldnt make you good until you worked your *** off.

And I took the opportunity to question why he acts like he does when plenty of other moderators do not act this way. Some of them are nice, some of them are not. I've been on forums for a long time and have experienced both extremes; I was merely trying to demonstrate my point. Nothing about the way I argued (point by point, even cited examples) necessitated a "grow up"; you just don't agree with me.

EDIT: And honestly, I've said all I wanted to and Mogwai is clearly not going to take this advice to heart, so I am done with trying to push this further.

Rules are rules. He used his own discretion, like every other moderator on this site. If you want to know why he thinks what he thinks, maybe you should have a cup of coffee with him and discuss it. In any case, the actions you took were very childish. Thats why you deserved a "grow up"



edit- @Winston, thats true too. Again, i want to take partial blame for it since my own laziness contributed to not having guides like that even though i know a lot of that information.

 

[Bones0]

If someone could link me to the thread that explains how to calculate shieldstun, I think I may just add all of the shieldstun values for each move into my hitbox thread.

And yes, I searched for it but can't find it. >______>

Actually, may have found what I wanted. Can anyone confirm phanna's values before I add all of this to the thread? First two digits are hit stun, the second two are shield stun.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2690107&postcount=22

 

[Mogwai]

If someone could link me to the thread that explains how to calculate shieldstun, I think I may just add all of the shieldstun values for each move into my hitbox thread.

And yes, I searched for it but can't find it. >______>

Actually, may have found what I wanted. Can anyone confirm phanna's values before I add all of this to the thread? First two digits are hit stun, the second two are shield stun.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2690107&postcount=22

the hitlag and shieldstun time depend entirely on the damage of the attack

the formulas are :

hitlag = (2 + damage/3) frames ; half of it when crouch cancelled.
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames

when you use a move a lot, its damage is reduced and so are the hitlag and shieldstun, and this makes them a bit less efficient at pressuring.

Searching for threads SCOTU created is the best way to stumble on Frame data goldmines.

 

[JPOBS]

I agree that a lot of discussion on smashboards is rehashing the same questions that come up over and over, but it's partially because most of our stickies/guides in the character forums are so outdated/bad. They don't talk about the basic flowchart combos, edgeguarding option coverage, important zones for matchups, neutral game RPS situations, etc. It's mostly specific details about mechanics (how to do techniques, frame data) or purely qualitative writeups of matchups.

Precisely.

Also, the alternative is to not have any discussion at all. If everything really has already been talked about, and is just a search function away, then why even have threads or discussion topics at all? Just turn smashboards into glorified google for smash and be down with the forums entirely.

Furthermore, I don't really have a problem with having the same questions being asked over and over again, over a sufficiently long length of time. The solution is simply don't read threads if you don't want to see discussion about topics already answered. Afterall, what are you reading this thread for anyway Sveet? Discussion about Falco? Why don't you just search whatever pops into your head (cuz aparently you already think everything has been discussed anyway), avoid this topic entirely, and save yourself the frustration of having to read the same discussions ad nauseum.

This is not an attack on you in anyway Sveet, I just find the logic of coming into a discussion thread, and complaining about the presence of on going discussion, to be rather silly.

 

[Lightsyde]

Underlined Johns and bolded laziness

If you want to get good at this game you have to put forth some effort. Even if everything about the game was shoved in your face it wouldnt make you good until you worked your *** off.

Rules are rules. He used his own discretion, like every other moderator on this site. If you want to know why he thinks what he thinks, maybe you should have a cup of coffee with him and discuss it. In any case, the actions you took were very childish. Thats why you deserved a "grow up"

edit- @Winston, thats true too. Again, i want to take partial blame for it since my own laziness contributed to not having guides like that even though i know a lot of that information.

They aren't MY johns or my laziness; I don't have a problem with these things. I was just illustrating why some people come here to do that. Coming into this thread and having things specifically explained to them is just how some people learn. I don't know why you're talking down your nose to me (or to those people indirectly) about their means of getting better when as Winston points out (and you agree with) a lot of those threads are really out of date.

I've been through the whole process of learning and understanding a lot about this game and I can safely say that what you are proposing for new players is "laziness" is actually them realizing that the threads are old and that this one is more cutting edge...because they are.

I made a post for the sake of claiming his "next person to post about Falcon gets infracted" and then followed up by making the point I wanted to make. Again, you say childish, I say effective for getting Mogwai's attention since he's super dismissive to most the people who post in her anyway.

 

[Mogwai]

Just drop it. This discussion is derailing the thread and producing nothing.

I wish I were better at moving after doing a platform drop canceled bair where you drop and bair, then immediately land on the platform. I think there are some really cool shield pressure and combo options using it, but I have a lot of difficulty moving immediately after it.

 

[Winston]

Why is that? What's different about the bair lag after it's platform canceled?

It also doesn't seem like the situation would come up much without you going out of the way for it. What are some example situations/setups?

Same reason I never learned how to do Luigi's platform nair stuff, when he's a character that legitimately needs better shield pressure options... (well, that gave me an excuse at the very least. The real reason may have been that it was difficult >__>)

 

[FrootLoop]

mogwai are you lcanceling the platform cancel?

 

[Mogwai]

mm, I think it has something to do with just confirming that I've managed to stay on the platform with it. It's a really fast hit-confirm for this game.

Any time I get into a shield pressure situation on a platform it seems like it's strong as you can link like 3 of them in a row with no real counter play and that ***** most shields. As for combos, basically and low % shine on a fast faller near a platform can lead into doing one of those to screw with their head. It's not optimal from a damage perspective, but when they see you staying grounded following their DI, they assume shine/utilt, and then doing one of those bairs while they DI in can lead to a cheap fsmash or pivoting a combo towards the edge. Eh, it's mostly needless flash, but that's what I like nowadays.

EDIT: and yea, I don't have problems l-canceling it, but I guess I haven't trained the muscle memory for dashing out of the l-cancel into the whole sequence.