PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

speaking of shield DI, how prevalent is it in todays metagame?

as in, do people currently actively think "if he does X, I'm going to shield DI to adjust my spacing, then counter with Y" or is it mostly something that happens willy nilly?

i consider it to be really essential, could mean difference between getting shield pressure ***** from falco (instead he hits air cuz you shield DI-ed) or peaches downsmash on shield (shield DI away so you don't get ****ed)

you want to maximize every little advantage you can get in smash... all the little things build up

 

[Jake13]

you smash DI during hitlag on your shield.

EDIT: basically I only ever think to Shield DI in spacy matches when someone hits my shield at a slightly questionable range for Shine OoS so that I can get close enough to Shine OoS.

Can't you asdi it?

 

[Mogwai]

no, holding the cstick will just buffer a roll/dodge/jump. at least afaik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've started consciously shield DI'ing, cause it gives me grabs, good OoS options, and escape options. For me, I just slightly hold to the left or right, depending on where I want to shield DI. When Mogwai says "You smash DI during hitlag on your shield," I feel like I should be tapping in one direction...

 

[Winston]

no, holding the cstick will just buffer a roll/dodge/jump. at least afaik.

He means tilt the control stick, I think.

 

[Jake13]

He means tilt the control stick, I think.

You are correct good sir


I meant tilting the control stick


When holding down/right on the analog while shielding peach's dsmash, I always get right up in her face

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, you don't have to SDI. Easiest example for shield DI'ing is getting jab comboed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bair stats
Auto cancel: <3 23>
Lcanceled: 10

First Jump (short hop)
SH Air Time: 25
SH FF air time: 17

So if you can autocancel on the 23rd frame and there's 4 frames of regular landing lag (I think) that's 27
And fastest possible short hop + FF = 17 + 10 frames of landing lag on Bair is also 27

But I might be wrong with some of my numbers / interpretation of the frame data

I don't think spamming AC Bairs is terribly effective though, if they react fast enough and are fast enough to close the gap or have really long moves (like Falcon's Nair) they can catch you as you're retreating

A pretty cool thing to know. =)

AC bairs are better because they leave a proportionally higher number of frames of the hitbox out.

I wouldn't make such a bold statement, but having more frames of a move out can be more useful at certain times(such as when covering a recovery move/airdodge for example) and less useful at other times(what leffen and unknown had to say lol).

I think AC bair is EXTREMELY overrated by the average to slighly above average smash player. A bair that doesnt hit anything is very bad for falco and a bair hitting something isnt that big of a deal anyway. If you are "walling" someone with AC bairs you're doing it wrong, if you are stuffing/punishing someone trying to break your wall of dash dancing / lasering with a relatively safe, autocanceled bair then you are doing it right.

Falco is way to slow to actually wall someone with bair in the way Fox/Sheik/Puff can use theirs.

Well a Bair hitting someone at most percents is either an edgeguard setup or a cause for momentum at the least usually, especially if it's the strong hit. In that sense I would consider Bair hits great, but perspective(in general and related to any given situation) can vary.

I generally agree with what you're saying though.

I agree with leffen on this.


More to add: a lot of time that b-air is out, is mostly the weak hit. It's pretty susceptible to CC, or getting straight up beaten. Also, depending on when you hit on the shield it is usually unsafe (the strong part hits high, and if you hit it low you will get the weak hit. So less shield stun).

Oh, and on top of that, b-air has pretty low range compared to a lot of characters' moves, so not only do you usually have to retreat with it but also it can still be punished by some characters even if you are retreating

ye

Another good one would be pivot bair. It covers a lot of options and almost always stops your opponent's dash dancing momentum in tight areas.

not sure I understand this one......I know m2K said pivot Bair when close to Fox covered most of his OOS things but beyond that I've never heard of it being very good. Seems kinda funky though so now that I remember it I should play with it haha.

spoiler alert!

Spoiler

it's possible to do retreating aerials from different spacings. in fact, there are all sorts of different spacings in this game and talking about what "works" from a spacing standpoint is fuzzy science at best.

i know, i know, mindblowing.

always something great to bring up, but it never hurts to have general rules so long as people understand that concept/keep it in mind.

speaking of shield DI, how prevalent is it in todays metagame?

as in, do people currently actively think "if he does X, I'm going to shield DI to adjust my spacing, then counter with Y" or is it mostly something that happens willy nilly?

Well I'm not sure how prevalent it is but it's an extremely useful technique. I hope to play with it more myself because that extra bit of spacing variety can make all the difference(as S2J said).

no, holding the cstick will just buffer a roll/dodge/jump. at least afaik.

I thought similarly.




Anyway thread, I've had an interesting week of Melee. Pushed farther against Fox and Falco particularly. I'm really hoping I can have another decent article or idea to discuss soon haha.


Falco's jab is very weird but good in the ditto by the way. Moreso than in his other matchups I feel because of how close the Falcos need to be to each other and the way they end up pressuring and countering one another. /random tidbit

 

[Pi]

also, i'm pretty sure you can smash di while in shield hitlag, and it acts similarly too regular smash di in regular hitlag

 

[Bones0]

also, i'm pretty sure you can smash di while in shield hitlag, and it acts similarly too regular smash di in regular hitlag

That was the first thing we established. lol

 

[Pi]

idk why but i thought some people were disputing that/not touching on that or something, just figured i'd mention it

 

[Strong Badam]

I shield DI a lot... but I do a lot of things most people do. Mechanics research etc. It helps me get grabs a lot w/ DK haha.

 

[Pi]

yooo i just got my hacked melee working w/ debug menu via tournament mode
SO CASH

 

[weon - X]

canada knows whats up.

and when you coming back to pittsburgh

One of these days I will return Johnny. 'Till then, hold down the fort for me

- Unknown522

 

[Kason Birdman]

I swear to god Toronto players post more on other peoples accounts then they do on their own.

 

[Sinji]

With the proper spacing, Shield DI can be countered.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

With the proper spacing, Shield DI can be countered.

certainly so



and the co-adaptation continues....




EDIT:

DK should have the longest grab range in the game, though

 

[DippnDots]

can you buffer smash di with the cstick?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1) smash DI cannot be done with the cstick, period.
2) what makes you think you could buffer smash di?

if you hold the Cstick you can do ASDI, which i guess is kinda like buffering half an input of SDI

 

[Sinji]

can you buffer smash di with the cstick?

Not possible. Buffer Smash di does not work. Tilt the Analog stick for better results in SDI. You'll see the animation once you do this. Hope I helped.

 

[DippnDots]

So you'd rasther tilt the control(edit: analog) stick than mash it whatever direction when you get hit?

Sveet: Curiosity made me wonder ;p

 

[wootayng]

hold up so you can move(just a little) while someone is hitting your shield by moving the grey stick either left or right? and also what does the A in ASDI stand for? i'm assuming the SDI stands for shield directional influence correct me if i'm wrong. this game goes a lot deeper then i previously thought chits redic

 

[Mokumo]

SDI is SMASH Directional Influence. If you notice after you get hit by certain moves (like samus's fully charged shot), your character kind of freezes for a sec. Any direction you input during this period can effect your trajectory. That's smash DI.

ASDI is AUTOMATIC smash DI. by simply holding the cstick when you get hit it automatically moves you in that direction on the first frame of stun.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

 

[wootayng]

^^ohh ok . thank for the link much help

 

[Bones0]

this game goes a lot deeper then i previously thought chits redic

You have no idea. @_@

 

[Winston]

At the same time I feel that understanding the subtleties of the game mechanics is far, far less important than the fundamentals (which I still struggle with at times)

 

[Bones0]

I also think it would be a mistake to label the fundamentals as shallow, though. I think that's what makes Melee such a difficult game is that simple fundamentals such as spacing and SHFFLing end up branching off into the subtleties, and drawing a line between the two is really difficult. While I used to consider being able to dash dance and SHFFL fundamentals, I've added a bunch of different conditions to how to use each one in different scenarios, such as knowing to cross-up SHFFL to avoid getting grabbed or dash dancing further or faster. Then once you learn the subtleties, they end up becoming a fundamental part of your game (Ex. SHFFLing in different ways to avoid getting grabbed has transformed from a subtlety to a fundamental part of my game as I improved). So it feels like sometimes the only subtleties are the things you aren't yet comfortable applying in-game. I imagine if I could shield DI all the time without any hesitation and knew exactly how to use it, I could simply consider it a fundamental element in my gameplay.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Sometimes, I think about how difficult this game is, and wonder what would have happened had I stayed with Brawl...there's so much to think about, and consider...

 

[choknater]

the only difference is that brawl is way slower and far less technically demanding. also the pace of the game and the design of the characters don't allow for much aggression

however same fundamentals still apply in both games

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

and BORING

 

[choknater]

yeah that too!

 

[unknown522]

I swear to god Toronto players post more on other peoples accounts then they do on their own.

yes,indeed.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

-kirbykaze

 

[choknater]

i wonder what their collective post count is

 

[Dr Peepee]

All I do is push fundamentals usually lol. I've found that any problem I've had is either my lack of fundamental knowledge or a need for expansion on a weak fundamental area I had. For example, my current issue vs Fox is my movement and how to react after I shoot a laser. These are extremely simple concepts but I have to think of good/better ways to act on that basic skill or I can't even begin to play the matchup correctly, much less think about a more micro mixup game.



Edit: Brawl helped/helps me see Melee more clearly sometimes. I played and play that game a lot at tourneys and it is good to lose my speed I rely on a lot at times.

That game teaches you to abuse big moves LOL which is why I <3 Falco's Bair so much usually.

 

[FoxLisk]

SDI is SMASH Directional Influence. If you notice after you get hit by certain moves (like samus's fully charged shot), your character kind of freezes for a sec. Any direction you input during this period can effect your trajectory. That's smash DI.

ASDI is AUTOMATIC smash DI. by simply holding the cstick when you get hit it automatically moves you in that direction on the first frame of stun.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

this is false. It affects your position before you start moving, not your trajectory.

 

[Bones0]

Doesn't ASDI also only move you on the last frame of hitlag, not the first frame of hit stun? That is probably just nit picking though.

I know for sure that ASDI'ing with the c-stick is pointless. Just use the control stick because it's hardly ever beneficial to ASDI in a different direction than your trajectory DI. I think it's only really used for teching after a missed rest when you want to ASDI down and DI down-left/right, but I also read ASDI'ing down-left/right goes just as far to the side as full ASDI left/right so idk... Magus? lol

 

[Druggedfox]

I don't think the fundamentals of brawl are more similar to melee than any other fighting game fundamentals might be.

The approach to brawl involves a lot more safe option selection, understanding the game's RPS situations, and walling (I'd argue the same for something like Street Fighter).

Melee *has* all of these, but there is less of a focus on such fundamentals than there is in brawl. Additionally, the speed in and of itself doesn't change much; rather, its about how the speed affects our ability to perceive situations. For example, understanding every little RPS situation in brawl is far more important, because you have the time to mentally process every option and go through the whole [psychology, reverse psychology, reverse-reverse psychology]/[yomi levels]/[whatever you want to call it]. Games where constant split-second decision making is necessary may still have RPS situations, particularly, but not limited to, general neutral situations, however there's far less emphasis on them; instead, there's an emphasis on reactions, instincts, and reads.

I was gonna say more... then I got side tracked... I'll leave it at that, I guess, unless anyone else has something to say about it.

 

[Mokumo]

this is false. It affects your position before you start moving, not your trajectory.

ah, that makes way more sense

 

[ryulord_678]

I feel like a lot of the times, I just run around on stage trying to not do something stupid against my opponent. I feel like I should be controlling the stage or forcing my opponent to do something, but I just don't know what I should be forcing them to do.

Sigh, it's hard being a melee noob when everyone else is already good.

-rl