choknater
Smash Obsessed
what about turnaround wd back b-tilt?WD forward f-tilt is the only way Marth can beat Sheik in this metagame.
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
what about turnaround wd back b-tilt?WD forward f-tilt is the only way Marth can beat Sheik in this metagame.
Ahh mk, I can see where you're coming from a bit better now; I definitely think the speed aspect is really really important.Hm you think about it in terms of option coverage, while I just learned to slow the game down since Melee went too fast. Maybe since the other games went by slower like brawl they could teach similar things? Though I feel that even Brawl's limited movement engine is still smash-oriented which allows transfer of the option coverage easier than from one fighting game to another to Melee. Although I suppose if one is dedicated enough to figure out what's going on in a manner that you're talking about coming from a fighting game then it may not matter.
Curiously enough, Hugs has a theory that most talented smash players tend to not perform as well in 2D fighters. Pink Shinobi rose to the top of the Norcal PRs quickly, but I don't believe he's achieved similar performances in SF or whatever he went to(from when I was stalking that noise anyway) lol. Any comment on why you think that may be?
WD Ftilt hits so many things hfuidjgnggdgldfgdjkngd freakin Marth ***** lol. soooo many things to say lol
survivor bias thoi think the simple explanation for smash players not performing as well in other 2D fighters is because they don't dedicate as much time to it. i honestly think it's that simple
falcomist is a clear example of being able to excel in another game. (mvc3) because he put the time and practice into marvel, and he surely applied things he learned from melee.
(he played mvc2 before melee as well.)
i don't understand thissurvivor bias tho
Thats not how RPS works.With the proper spacing, sure why not. Isn't RPS supposed to be like that? I throw out something, then you throw out something. If my move is better than yours then I win... simple. lol. Of course, understanding the physics of the move itself has to be known for that to work. It's part of my gameplan often.
Maybe you're just bad at playing RPS in the kitchenI've only won 2 games of RPS against my girlfriend ever.
definitely not luck
we exhibit survivorship bias when we only focus on people/groups who succeed or excel at a task, i.e. "survive" the process, and ignore those who don't, often b/c they are invisible. success stories like justin are highly visible, whereas we never hear about anyone who fails at it and that will naturally skew perceptions of how easy/hard it is. it's an extremely common mistake we tend to make when analyzing resultsi don't understand this
I thought you are somewhat in a constant state of RPS. When you are in a neutral game.. what will your opponent throw out.. what will you throw out? If you can guess correctly then you can counter him. Like Falcon/Ganon matchup, how he's going to approach will possibly determine my defense. If he Nairs, I can bair to beat it or Nair myself to trade. If he bairs or dair, I can upair. If he tries to raptor boost or grab, I can Dair. See what I mean?Thats not how RPS works.
First of all, there needs to be atleast 3 equally valuable/useable options. Both players throwing out a move and one player winning based on spacing/range/priority (which is what would happen in melee) is not RPS.
In fact, I would say there are very few real RPS situations in melee.
Well it can trade and I think Sheik's Bair beats Uptilt outright, and Sheik is SH'ing so long that uptilt won't always beat her Fair.I have a question. Utilit stops sheiks aerials. So what is the best option when sheik approaches on the ground and CC? Falco's bair wont work and dsmash will require a lot of frames before sheik reacts.
LOL That is such a great way of describing Melee techniques. It's so true. Whenever I read video critiques or try to describe a situation myself, I always end up seeing/listing a bunch of disclaimers for what situations **** doesn't work and random things that can counter other things.If you have to put a ton of disclaimers on every single thing in melee to account for all the possible counters your opponent could do and all the million counter-counters you can do, then whats even the point of talking about rock-paper-scissors anymore?
RPSception!So many tiny rps games within other rps games.
Maybe it is, that easy.. you just have to light up the darkness in your heart. lol.CC > attack > Grab > CC
imagine if the game was that easy (I guess you'd just have to be a Warrior)
I quit trolling many months ago >_>lmfao. the crush avatar and the existence of crush the poster just increase the trollness of that post by a lot
hm. cc to grab? divided by zero.
That last question is definitely the same one I'd ask. XDI definitely agree that brawl would have an edge over 2D fighters in learning melee! I just feel that if you had a continuum of some sort, I'll just number it 0-10: If SF is a 0 and melee is a 10, I'd probably put brawl as a 6 or 7 if we're strictly speaking fundamentals. So I guess it was more that... while as a melee player you could learn from brawl, brawl would probably help you more in a traditional 2D fighter than it would in melee.
M2K as a SF guy? Yeah, for sure. The way he approaches the game as RPS, the way he figures out his best option (or options, in which case he simply mixes up between them, proportional to how good each option is), the way he can simplify the game... it all seems perfect for something like street fighter imo.
If talented smash players going into fighting games could simply take their smarts and leave behind everything else they have, they'd probably do a bit better. I think drawing parallels to melee is definitely helpful/good, but not until *after* you learn the fundamentals of the other game. If you approach a 2D fighter with the concepts you already know, it will negatively affect your ability to accept and internalize the new concepts. Understand that X character is almost useless right outside the range of their low roundhouse first, then after that is 100% intuitive to you, apply your ability have good spacing, whiff punishing, baiting etc. from melee.
..............
Okay, I started typing that at like 1 pm today and thought I finished the post........ I just came back to it, realized I hadn't posted it, and had no idea what my train of thought was. So i'll go ahead and post this, and maybe expand later.
Choknater... how good, exactly, is falcomist at mvc3? I know he plays and does well in norcal, but that's about all i know.
Whoa never thought about those types of differences before. Everything being so non-standard in Melee that I really shouldn't be surprised but I guess I can't help it haha.I kind of like this discussion of games so I'm gonna add more! Although this isn't my forte so tell me if I say something dumb.
I think something that makes these models more appropriate (?) in more traditional fighters is that some traditional titles put effort into ensuring every character has a decent generic tool like a jab or whatever. And they do this by giving a common jab speed across the board (I think GNT4 had 2 jab speeds) and other things like that. I believe the example Raynex gave me was Tekken. I don't remember if it was a specific installment or not, but he said they don't have as much variety between jab speeds. I would think this would make jab a decent tool with every character, or at least useful for stuffing actions and things like that. Whatever one character can do with jab, you can do it too... just at a different range if your range is different. This obviously... is not even close to the case in Melee.
So I would also argue there's more of an effort to keep the characters' movesets more similar in other fighters or at least to make sure characters have some similar basic tools. I know this discussion started about 2D fighters and Tekken is 3D, but I wouldn't be surprised if the variance between jab speeds was closer in the traditional 2D fighter titles either. If someone wants to verify that for me, that would be great.
In that same vein, I also would be surprised if they had as much variance between jump speeds as we do (Bowser's 9 frames of jump startup is so needlessly horrible; I don't know why they decided to make him horrible for no reason but whatever). I mean, I don't have experience with SF4's frame data but at an aesthetic level it looks like the characters are all leaving the ground as quickly as one another. I could be wrong, but the jump speed differences in Melee just look really noticeable with the more extreme cases.
So yeah... Melee's high range in attack (and to a lesser degree jump) speeds between the characters and lack of effort to really balance the cast by giving the bulk of them useful generic combat techniques (I might be forgetting something but I don't think so) plus all the other crap that's come up in this topic so far (did anyone mention stages yet?) is part of why Melee RPS has to be narrowed down to specific situations so much... too many factors to make any sort of all-purpose RPS rules for common situations.
.
Well yeah they all respect Melee because it's so hard, so if you take your understanding of fighters and your probably well-honed reaction time then I'm sure you or any other competent Melee player could do at least decently at 2D fighters.some friends from the DR say that the best melee players also have a hold on all the competitive fighters down there, and he was telling me i should pick up another fighter and it would be easier since i played melee
WD jab against Puff.WD Ftilt hits so many things hfuidjgnggdgldfgdjkngd freakin Marth ***** lol. soooo many things to say lol