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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Van.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
744
Location
St. Pete, FL
okay i noticed a bad habit of mine and i want to correct it but i need a little guidance.
sometimes when i dair my opponent they will smash di away, and then im in this weird position where i cant shine them, but ill instinctively go for shine -> wavedash, cause i hit them with the dair and i want to pull a **** combo, but then ill miss and sometimes get grabbed -.-
what could i do in this situation instead of being stupid? id like to do some damage and avoid getting grabbed.

i just thought of one more bad habit id like to break
whenever im in a neutral sutuation with my opponent and we're just spacing and whatnot and i c an opening ill always approach with a nair i never approach with dair. it doesn't matter who my opponent is playing or what % hes at
id like a general idea of when its better to approach with dair instead of nair

one more thing (last one)
sometimes is fine myself in this janky situation where ill approach with a nair and my opponent will wd back and shield the tip of my nair and then ill b out of shine range (but i try it anyways -.-) and ill get grabbed.
im not sure if i can get out of this situation without giving them an easy opportunity to grab me? if there is id like to know it.
Thank You
Firstly, you just sort of have to learn the percents that dair won't combo into shine. Just more playtime, probably. Alot of people have this problem, even mid level falcos.

Approaching with nair everytime is not good. Against peach, its really, really, really bad, its really, really bad vs. samus, puff, fox and maybe sheik too. But nothing is good if done predictably (unless its garunteed, obv)

As for the last problem, well... you can try overshooting the nair, or nair less predictably.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I assume you are talking about them SDIing the dair in the low % pillar combos, like on CF? I think if you space it correctly you can guarantee you land the shine, but the only way I've been able to do that is to barely hit the front of their character so that if the SDI in front I will have my momentum still be going that way and I won't miss, and if they SDI behind then the back end of my shine still hits (Shine is much more disjointed on Falco's back than front). Unfortunately, unless this a punish on lag, it usually feels too risky because it is horrible spacing if they WD back or just dash dance (since you usually want to overshoot aerials to cover those options). So if you overshoot your aerial and they SDI behind you can utilt (harder to hit and kind of risky, but a higher reward) or do a quick autocancel bair.

As far as nair vs. dair, I think my tendency is to approach with dair when I am more confident it will hit. Nair feels like it reaches further, and it comes out faster, so it's usually easier for me to space. When I dair it's usually when I know they can't avoid it because they are stuck near the ledge and that doubles as an advantage for if it hits that it's much easier to dair -> dair spike someone than to nair and try to edge guard at the ledge height which always seems awkward.

That's my take on those questions, but I'm interested to hear what other players think because this is mostly stuff I've just learned to do instinctively; I never really put thought into them when deciding what would be good.

And yeah, like Van said, just overshoot those aerials. I would just get grabbed constantly for that **** until I realized I should just run a little bit further before SHFFLing. If you DO **** up spacing, jab usually covers you pretty well. It is at least better then spot dodging immediately to avoid the grab (something else I used to do all the time lol).
 

Van.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
744
Location
St. Pete, FL
^I think he's just phrasing it incorrectly. I think he's talking about linking SHFFL'd dair directly into shine.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Messages
11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
Low % pillars are SHFFLed dairs into shine...

I mean obviously it can happen just from neutral, but the opponent SDIing dairs (in my experience) usually happens in the auto-pillars because they are just waiting for that next dair. It can apply to both though, so w/e.
 

Van.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
744
Location
St. Pete, FL
My bad. What I mean is I think his opponents aren't sdi ing the dair, he's just doing it at too high percents. I could easily be wrong though.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Jarrettsville, MD
My bad. What I mean is I think his opponents aren't sdi ing the dair, he's just doing it at too high percents. I could easily be wrong though.
Ohhhh, yeah, that can definitely confuse some people. If they are at too high of a % they'd be falling over/teching, so I just thought that would be obvious since I'm used to it.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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BRoomer
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Messages
27,766
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okay i noticed a bad habit of mine and i want to correct it but i need a little guidance.
sometimes when i dair my opponent they will smash di away, and then im in this weird position where i cant shine them, but ill instinctively go for shine -> wavedash, cause i hit them with the dair and i want to pull a **** combo, but then ill miss and sometimes get grabbed -.-
what could i do in this situation instead of being stupid? id like to do some damage and avoid getting grabbed.

i just thought of one more bad habit id like to break
whenever im in a neutral sutuation with my opponent and we're just spacing and whatnot and i c an opening ill always approach with a nair i never approach with dair. it doesn't matter who my opponent is playing or what % hes at
id like a general idea of when its better to approach with dair instead of nair

one more thing (last one)
sometimes is fine myself in this janky situation where ill approach with a nair and my opponent will wd back and shield the tip of my nair and then ill b out of shine range (but i try it anyways -.-) and ill get grabbed.
im not sure if i can get out of this situation without giving them an easy opportunity to grab me? if there is id like to know it.
Thank You
Okay so you're talking about when they pull back right? Well, you can wait a second and shine them when they come back into you, or you could actually Dair again(you'd have to do an earlier Dair than before obviously) to see if they don't do that DI a second time(they usually don't). You could also turnaround uptilt but that usually doesn't get you much since they like to DI away. You could also grab which can be good since people aren't ready for that. Anyway yeah delaying the shine is best lol.

Lower %s Nair is better if they're not CC'ing and farther away/trying to jump away from your attack. Nair sticks out farther so it catches them sooner than Dair.

Dair is better at low percents if you know you'll get the hit usually because it negates CCs mostly and people can't DI it far enough away to avoid the followup.


Higher percents Nair is better to hit someone offstage or out of shield/running away once again. Also it can set up for a kill offstage better depending on DI.

Dair is better to set up a spike or Bair or Fsmash at higher percents but if you use it too high DI won't matter and then they'll fly away so Nair is better for super high percents.


Just see what works in between all of that for you.


For the last one, you need to approach at different times so your opponent can't always WD back on you. Or, you could approach deeper into someone(overshoot your aerial from where they are to behind them) so that you'll hit them where they go.
 

Vaccine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
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491
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Bloomfield Hills MI
Okay so you're talking about when they pull back right? Well, you can wait a second and shine them when they come back into you, or you could actually Dair again(you'd have to do an earlier Dair than before obviously) to see if they don't do that DI a second time(they usually don't). You could also turnaround uptilt but that usually doesn't get you much since they like to DI away. You could also grab which can be good since people aren't ready for that. Anyway yeah delaying the shine is best lol.

Lower %s Nair is better if they're not CC'ing and farther away/trying to jump away from your attack. Nair sticks out farther so it catches them sooner than Dair.

Dair is better at low percents if you know you'll get the hit usually because it negates CCs mostly and people can't DI it far enough away to avoid the followup.


Higher percents Nair is better to hit someone offstage or out of shield/running away once again. Also it can set up for a kill offstage better depending on DI.

Dair is better to set up a spike or Bair or Fsmash at higher percents but if you use it too high DI won't matter and then they'll fly away so Nair is better for super high percents.


Just see what works in between all of that for you.


For the last one, you need to approach at different times so your opponent can't always WD back on you. Or, you could approach deeper into someone(overshoot your aerial from where they are to behind them) so that you'll hit them where they go.
yeah he pulled back super far! i usually wait to shine them but he was out of range and i tried it anyways and i got grabbed -.-
i was thinking of this particular instance when i asked that question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi9rbKM6Ct8&feature=channel_video_title#t=1m48s
i thinking i should have grabbed?

can i get out of getting punished if i hit the edge of my opponents shield with the tip of a descending nair? i no its best to avoid that situation but im a scrub and i mess up. ive tried spotdodging and then rolling that has worked for me in the past lol. but id like to find a not so janky solution to that predicament. spotdodge -> rollaway does not feel legit.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Well you could walk up and get the shine maybe, or yeah in that situation particularly you might have only gotten a grab.

And if that happens then maybe jab to stuff their OOs options like grab or an aerial that's trying to get you or just rolling away or something to reset is good. Might as well spotdodge roll in that situation if you want lol but just rolling is probably fine.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Well you could walk up and get the shine maybe, or yeah in that situation particularly you might have only gotten a grab.

And if that happens then maybe jab to stuff their OOs options like grab or an aerial that's trying to get you or just rolling away or something to reset is good. Might as well spotdodge roll in that situation if you want lol but just rolling is probably fine.
yeah, in a lot of Shiz's vids vs characters like marth and sheik, if they pull back from being hit by a d-air, he would run and do a jumping shine to hit them.

I've tested it a lot, and it will still combo if you walk or run so yeah.

Also, turnaround u-tilt is a good choice too
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Nah it is faster than run, it's just the lower acceleration on the walk(since you won't be max speed by the time you get to the opponent I'd think) that surprises me on that.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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it is, but it takes really long time for it to get to full speed.

I'm considering starting to use falco some again in the matchups I like him in (Fastfallers more or less) and doing dash(dance) to jc shine (grounded) is one of the things I have started using ;o
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I saw the Foxes talking about that a while ago. Is it useful just in the scenario brought up or there other weird things for that dash JC shine like countering approaches or spacing quickly to catch someone OOS or something?
 

leffen

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I havent explored that much but following up utilts (low percent)/dash attack (a little higher) and catching notech/normal tech from dthrow when they DI away have been the other situations I've really used it in.

Catching landings etc is usually done better with WD->shine or jump-> shine in midair since you move much faster that way.
 

Jim Morrison

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PP, you have all the things you discussed in the OP, but no links to the post, so I have no idea where to find those :o. Can you put the links to the posts in the OP?
 

Bones0

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Messages
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lol That's weird. I could have sworn he had those hyperlinked before...


Fun fact: you can auto cancel reverse bair into grab on spacies. It's completely useless, but I just did it so suck it.
 

Bones0

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Leffen, is it just my imagination, or do Europeans use secondaries in tournament A LOT more than US players? I was watching all the Beast 2 stuff and was surprised by all the character changes. You play Fox/Falco/Yoshi. Ice plays Marth/Fox/Sheik. Faab and Calle W play Falco/Fox. Fuzzyness plays Falcon/Fox (and mains Marth now apparently?). I just thought it was really interesting because when you look at the US our top players have good secondaries, but not often used in tournaments. Just looking at the Genesis 2 results, the top 9 had PP, Hbox, Shroomed, S2J, SFAT, MacD, Hax, and Wobbles, all of whom (to my knowledge) only use a single character.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
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I dunno if it is just a coincidence, maybe it comes from us having a harder time traveling and so we get bored playing the same characters all the time? I dunno really.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Okay edited them back in! Man seeing some of that material again really made me wanna write lol. If I sleep well tonight I think my itch will be bad enough. =p

Also no dude ICs are lame =( They can be mad creative and interesting though haha.
 

Bones0

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Okay edited them back in! Man seeing some of that material again really made me wanna write lol. If I sleep well tonight I think my itch will be bad enough. =p

Also no dude ICs are lame =( They can be mad creative and interesting though haha.
I think he was just giving you an opportunity to practice saying "no." lol
 

Bl@ckChris

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Oct 4, 2009
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funny thing is, it worked.

kevin, we should ganon ditto soon.

and by ganon ditto, i mean i should play your falco because it actually helps me get better.
 
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