PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Tekk]

pretty much everyone except Unknown522 (who thinks it and Fox-Marth is 4-6 for fox...)

LOL way to ruin his credibility there, learn ****ing respect godamnit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

if a jigglypuff as good as hungrybox started planking properly and with no ledge grab limit she would definitely be better than metaknight is in this current ruleset (when MK has a LGL). I still stand by that. It makes getting a lead way too rewarding vs the 3 fast fallers.

Can't she get shined by Fox or spiked by Falco? If she's just attacking by the edge she can get shot or hit OOS and put into a bad position. I want to test this theory.

I think the whole matchup chart thing is ********. "This character is better b/c assuming top level play, blah blah blah". Assumptions are ******** 99% of the time, unless you're assuming you shouldn't be making assumptions.

IMO there's no way to truly tell who has an advantage in a matchup unless there's sufficient and consistent results to "prove" so.

the fox/falco matchup is so stupid honestly, lol. i dont see any reason why it shouldn't be considered even. some fox's like it some dont. i think more falco's seem to enjoy it than not though. falco's probably have a better history vs. fox. if you were gonna go on anything i dont see how you cannot go on that

It's not an assumption more than just providing the framework for a discussion. Why is assuming top level play bad?

I don't think we should just look at results and consider them the end all be all determinants of matchups. New tactics and character abuses are discovered, and that is all still ignoring things that also should be considered like hitbox size between common moves used to space or approach/defend.

 

[choknater]

ice climbers beat puff 55-45

including planking puff

 

[GOTM]

It's not an assumption more than just providing the framework for a discussion. Why is assuming top level play bad?

I don't think we should just look at results and consider them the end all be all determinants of matchups. New tactics and character abuses are discovered, and that is all still ignoring things that also should be considered like hitbox size between common moves used to space or approach/defend.

i dont think assuming is BAD. i think it helps, but i dont think it should be like the end all to an argument over which char is better.

it would be like saying in the superbowl, if each player played at their peak levels, this team would be better, but when that team doesn't win, you dont say they messed up, you say the other team was a better team.

thats the only reason why i say we should be looking at results. if we constantly assumed fox was better b/c of what top level perfect play is telling is, and no player can execute that consistently, how is fox still the best? you've ***** everyone recently with falco, just b/c fox should "technically" be a better character - doesn't mean players will play him like he should be played, lol.

 

[leffen]

It will be posted on the general boards anytime anyway (@Tekk).

The reason the Fox-Falco matchup is so important (other than its the 2 most played characters) is that it more or less decides who is the best character in the game. This is kinda imo but I think most would agree that Falco has worse matchups vs the other top tiers (Jigglypuff and Sheik) so unless Falco wins it by a fair amount he won't really be the best character or smth.

 

[Niko45]

What is the definition of top level of play, though? Top 5? Top 20? Top 50 players? There's a wide range of skill even among just the best and 20th best player, but if you are defining it as only a few elite players you don't have very many opinions being input.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i dont think assuming is BAD. i think it helps, but i dont think it should be like the end all to an argument over which char is better.

it would be like saying in the superbowl, if each player played at their peak levels, this team would be better, but when that team doesn't win, you dont say they messed up, you say the other team was a better team.

thats the only reason why i say we should be looking at results. if we constantly assumed fox was better b/c of what top level perfect play is telling is, and no player can execute that consistently, how is fox still the best? you've ***** everyone recently with falco, just b/c fox should "technically" be a better character - doesn't mean players will play him like he should be played, lol.

I'm fine with your first line.

I am uncomfortable with sports references related to smash because I feel like there is so much more support for sports teams that their metagames or whatever are pushed farther(vs a few hundred Melee players and of those only a handful really advancing their characters) than any metagame of a character in Melee.

I don't want to assume perfect play. I find that shine beating everything stuff silly lol. I do stress that there are ways these characters, Falco included, could be played much better than they are despite looking at results, especially in this day and age where skill level is so spread out geographically and just in relation to other skill levels. I merely speak from the Fox-type perspective on it more because I feel as though people overestimate Falco and that has become more pronounced due to a few tournament performances lately. I'm not saying the results prove it or not but used alone and as truth that Falco wins a matchup and is the best character or something just gets to me I suppose. Maybe in this metagame that is the truth(Falco is that good) but I guess I try to speak independently of that. Maybe that's a wrong way to feel about it haha.



Edit @ Niko: Yeah it technically doesn't encompass many players(top level play tends to work among only the top level players....not trying to be insulting with that comment), but the point is to argue that players will have mastered their characters and will be able to adapt well and other such top level things that keep people from arguing janky things like DD'ing 3 times to a grab or Nair with Fox is good because it works on this higher level player a lot or something(horrible example but maybe it gets my point across lol I'll think of a better one later hopefully).

It's all theoretical abstract discussion anyway so assuming equal top level play to remove as much human error and focus on the characters as much as possible seems like a good grounding for discussion to me.

 

[GOTM]

haha idk. im an idiot. i always use obscure metaphors. and i havent played the game competitively in a while. when i used to play fox i tried to do the same **** everytime, and that was trying and be more technical then the other player and i got *****. with falco it seemed to work better, haha

either way, there both **** chars. prob comes down to who is playing better that day. i dont think either one can afford to make too many mistakes

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

leffen a lot of your posts are straight ********.

no marth did uthrow->dthrow->fsmash before m2k in 06/07, how can you say m2k didnt do it?

you use dtilt in the dthrow dtilt trap because it has frames so that you don't even have to react between the dthrow and the dtilt to cover every option (except i guess the one niko pointed out).

i like how you made that post about MBR stuff to make it seem like everyone in the MBR backs you in saying falco is really bad. Its not true. If you would actually read that thread, the conscensus is that fox and falco are the 2 best characters and the match-up between them is very even. Some people say its very slightly fox's favor some say its very slightly falco's favor. Only you and unknown say anything other than even.

 

[Dr Peepee]

haha idk. im an idiot. i always use obscure metaphors. and i havent played the game competitively in a while. when i used to play fox i tried to do the same **** everytime, and that was trying and be more technical then the other player and i got *****. with falco it seemed to work better, haha

either way, there both **** chars. prob comes down to who is playing better that day. i dont think either one can afford to make too many mistakes

Haha I totally feel you dude. Falco definitely can get away with some silly tech skill things sometimes hahaha. =)

 

[leffen]

Sveet:
You have to be kidding me. Watch ken/Ek videos from 2005 or smth lol.

I know why you use it, and it doesnt cover Niko+Slipoffs. Im just saying that you should react instead of being lazy and doing suboptimal punishments.

Reading through my previous post I realized it came out very wrong lol, didnt mean to put it that way. Whatever, whats done is done.

 

[DoH]

****ing Caveman used to do up throw down throw fsmash in 2004

 

[Deleted member]

wow the MBR must have become total garbage to have you guys as members lol

talk about a *******ization of something that was awesome before.

 

[choknater]

yeah man. let me in there

 

[leffen]

wow the MBR must have become total garbage to have you guys as members lol

talk about a *******ization of something that was awesome before.

Man, completely changing the subject when you realize that you are wrong and instead start insulting me? What a new and exciting strategy bro.

 

[ChivalRuse]

wow the MBR must have become total garbage to have you guys as members lol

talk about a *******ization of something that was awesome before.

Yeah! Since when do we start letting top European players into the MBR? We needs standards, people!

 

[Deleted member]

Man, completely changing the subject when you realize that you are wrong and instead start insulting me? What a new and exciting strategy bro.

strategy is for people that want to win. it doesn't take long to go into the MBR and find your awesome posts, which are basically "everything americans think is wrong, falco is bad, im amazing at everything"

as usual, i pretty much agree with sveet. sveet you definitely should have been in the MBR before it was ***. my fault man, my fault.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Meh its for the best. I worked hard to get where i am now, i didn't have it handed to me because someone thought i had potential. That is a lesson that took me too long to learn.

 

[Mew2King]

As far as ICs vs Jiggs planking, I don't think so dude. I forget if it was Zhu or DSF but I believe one of them played puff against fly and won, and they don't even use puff, but they could do that from just planking. It's pretty dumb if you consider the risk/reward ratio she has and that she can do it infinitely, but the only really good singles puff, Hbox, won't do it, cuz he doesn't want jiggs to be banned or for people to hate him for doing it.

as far as what PP said - it's not that easy, and you have to shinespike her 3 times for her to die.

but honestly, it doesn't matter, because hbox is never going to do this, and no one is top level with her besides him (she's boring =/ )

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hbox, won't do it, cuz he doesn't want jiggs to be banned or for people to hate him for doing it.

Because people love Hbox's Puff already? A lot of smashers aren't that receptive to him, from what I can gather.

I would support him doing that only to piss off everyone. =P

 

[Druggedfox]

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Start the dair 1 or two frames earlier than is given by that; that leaves the window at the end as 6-7 frames, which is effectively ungrabbable (if you do 6 frames it IS ungrabbable, 7 frames is humanly ungrabbable if you're going for consistency).

They can only start their grab on frame 11, if we're using your assumption for around 12 frames to be ungrabbable (I think depending on your spacing, it can be less, but w/e) then you become ungrabbable by frame 20. This leaves your opponent with a 9 frame window to grab, so with a 7 frame startup, your opponent has a 1-2 frame window to actually time their grab.

This is assuming it indeed takes 12 frames to be at ungrabbable ranges; depending on your positioning you could be at 10 degrees above the horizontal. That would save you more than two frames.

With your assumptions they only have a 1-2 frame window to time a grab, and I think if you space it at the right horizontal ranges it would take less than 12 frames to become ungrabbable. If you read my last post I even said: "It's probably possible that there's maybe a stray frame or two where falco ends up in the grab range despite good spacing, and sorry if that's the case."

It is effectively ungrabbable, as I'm pretty sure none of us play super theory bros. Once again this leaves a 2 frame window with your 12 frame assumption.

Also, your counter tactics to this are meaningless in this argument. I never once said its unbeatable. If you would read my posts you would see that I specified that aerial OoS is a *direct* counter to this, and you have time to do other things. The idea isn't to be unbeatable, but rather to allow you to react to more options while being nigh impossible to grab.

So yeah, that's that.

 

[Mew2King]

hbox won't do it for 2 reasons
1) he wants to be liked more
2) he doesn't want puff banned

so that's why it doesn't matter about planking puff, because ur never gonna see anybody good ever doin it

 

[ShroudedOne]

I guess not...

But the thought of any character being banned from Melee shocks me. That will truly be the beginning of the end.

 

[Druggedfox]

If there's room to slip off, the marth player should know not to do it. You're seriously using an argument that goes like this:

The reason your trap doesn't work is because if you do it in a situation its not supposed to, it doesn't work.

That's stupid. Why would marth dthrow if you can slip off.

Niko's thing? If you see them DI in, just choose to react and regrab normally. The reason you wouldn't want to regrab normally is that the dtilt would send them off stage, an amazing position for marth to be in. If they're in a position where dtilt isn't going to send them offstage, you shouldn't be dtilting.

Your arguments assume the marth player is just going to braindead use the trap in every situation somewhat near the ledge. If the marth is intelligent and has practice using the trap, they won't do it in situations where it doesn't work.

I can't believe I had to say that.

Edit: Your AIM's not working with mine winston, I keep getting "error sending message"

 

[Dr Peepee]

As far as ICs vs Jiggs planking, I don't think so dude. I forget if it was Zhu or DSF but I believe one of them played puff against fly and won, and they don't even use puff, but they could do that from just planking. It's pretty dumb if you consider the risk/reward ratio she has and that she can do it infinitely, but the only really good singles puff, Hbox, won't do it, cuz he doesn't want jiggs to be banned or for people to hate him for doing it.

as far as what PP said - it's not that easy, and you have to shinespike her 3 times for her to die.

but honestly, it doesn't matter, because hbox is never going to do this, and no one is top level with her besides him (she's boring =/ )

It is that easy. Make a situation and beat it. Puff gives you the whole stage and she's weak from above. Shining comes in from above and Dair pushes are down as well if she spaces and then floats to the edge and you can't make it in time to shine(even though you should be able to).

Falcon is kinda bad vs this but his Bair and uptilt are pretty sick vs Puff recovering so even then.

And Falco can just spike or Dsmash her and force her to lose jumps before doing it again.


All of this fails to take into account you can just grab the edge and hit her too. Unless she pounds you then you won't even die from trying anything and Pound has a ton of lag so Puff can't commit to it much.

It is that easy and basing it on a friendly or two isn't that good imo. I'd rather test things vs puff players or players with very good puffs than just write it off as broken because you did it or someone else did it once or twice in a friendly when the opponent may not have even been trying hard to beat it since there's less pressure to adapt.

 

[Veetaak]

hbox won't do it for 2 reasons
1) he wants to be liked more
2) he doesn't want puff banned

so that's why it doesn't matter about planking puff, because ur never gonna see anybody good ever doin it

Are you sure that not one of the reasons is that he wants to enjoy the game?

I don't know but it feels like atleast some top players still enjoy the game and that planking will only take that away...

 

[Fly_Amanita]

As far as ICs vs Jiggs planking, I don't think so dude. I forget if it was Zhu or DSF but I believe one of them played puff against fly and won.

Neither of them have ever done this to me.

 

[Van.]

strategy is for people that want to win. it doesn't take long to go into the MBR and find your awesome posts, which are basically "everything americans think is wrong, falco is bad, im amazing at everything"

as usual, i pretty much agree with sveet. sveet you definitely should have been in the MBR before it was ***. my fault man, my fault.

Very accurate post.

Leffen it makes me sad that you throw away all of your oppurtunities to do good for the community/in your life in general.

You have the placings you would need to be well respected, and you would be liked if you made even a little less effort to be an *******, but you constantly choose not to do it .

Honestly, it makes me think that something is really wrong in your life that causes you to be so insecure about yourself and your region.

 

[JPOBS]

I liked the part where Mow pretends the MBR was ever any good.

His 2006 rose tinted glasses get so foggy sometimes.

edit: to clarify, the level of skill in the mbr was probably higher because they just let all the good players in regardless of whether they even posted on the boards. but as an organization/group, the MBR has never been worth a s**t

 

[leffen]

They can only start their grab on frame 11, if we're using your assumption for around 12 frames to be ungrabbable (I think depending on your spacing, it can be less, but w/e) then you become ungrabbable by frame 20. This leaves your opponent with a 9 frame window to grab, so with a 7 frame startup, your opponent has a 1-2 frame window to actually time their grab.

12 frames FROM THE START OF THE JUMP, so 14 from when they can start grabbing.

Start the dair 1 or two frames earlier than is given by that; that leaves the window at the end as 6-7 frames, which is effectively ungrabbable (if you do 6 frames it IS ungrabbable, 7 frames is humanly ungrabbable if you're going for consistency).

You can react to how late he does the dair and "humanly ungrabable" is bull**** since the falco has a way harder time perfectly timing these than the one doing the grab (Dair on the exact right frame, FF on the right frame, Lcancel and shine on the right frame versus Pressing A on the right frame). Oh and dont forget that you can press A when you are in shieldstun without suffering at all while Falco gets grabbed if he presses jump/shine during shieldstun and because it becomes harder and harder for both to time perfectly when you count in stale moves it is even worse for Falco.

You can actually doublepress grab with the 4+ frame window and come very close to 100% consistency against this pressure, and you can use fun buffers as early A press->jump->shine or A->Roll.

It is effectively ungrabbable, as I'm pretty sure none of us play super theory bros. Once again this leaves a 2 frame window with your 12 frame assumption.

4 frame window ASSUMING the Falco does everything frame perfectly (again, harder) AND hasnt used the moves earlier. Who is really talking about Super Theory Bros.?
I didnt really say **** about using it in a match or anything, I just said that it is impossible to do a ungrabbable pressure.

And really, this pressure gives you a nigh impossible time of NOT getting grabbed assuming the opponent plays the mixup game as good as you.

 

[leffen]

If there's room to slip off, the marth player should know not to do it.

If you watch vids where you see them do it you can see that they can slipoff with proper DI >_< and when you cannot slipoff you can DI in and force a normal tech chase where roll outwards is a viable option.

Niko's thing? If you see them DI in, just choose to react and regrab normally.

You are doing the dtilt way before you can react to a normal tech and you can then mix it u with no tech to counter grab.

The reason you wouldn't want to regrab normally is that the dtilt would send them off stage, an amazing position for marth to be in. If they're in a position where dtilt isn't going to send them offstage, you shouldn't be dtilting.

When you get sent offstage from the dtilt close to the edge you can slipoff 99% of the times.



I can't believe I had to say that.

EDIT@Van:
You honestly think I'm here to get respected and "to do good for my life in general".
I post exactly what I think if I believe I'm right, its not like I'm insulting people because I failed during the discussion (Intuition/Mow style) or hate on America at all (Mikehaggar style). If people cannot take anything from the recent discussion other than that I insult someone then you sir, are blind because of bias.
And you arent even in the MBR so you cannot see how accurate that post is >_>.

 

[strawhats]

my marth is like 10 times worse than it was last year. he's like my 6th best character now. I know cuz I've played cactuar recently with every character, and my marth can't do half the **** I could do last year and it's nothing like I was at FCD or super champ combo. As an overall player I've improved, maybe, but it's only with a ton of useless characters so as a tournament threat i would be worse.

as far as brawl goes, before brawl came out I said to myself I want to be the best at this game, and I decided BEFORE the game came out, to only focus on one character and fully master them for every matchup, on every stage, and for teams too. First 1-3 weeks it was marth and DDD, then just DDD (and I was very very good with him, I won all the NJ and md/va tourneys [except when azen would beat me twice] for many many months) then after I won fast1 with ddd (i even 3 stocked seibrik in dittos back then and beat his snake/mk too all 6 games in grand finals of a FL tourney the week after) i decided I'd go all MK. I put more work into metaknight totaled than i ever did with any 1 melee character, by far. In melee I actually enjoy playing the other characters. I'm addicted to 0-death type of things, and many melee characters can play like that.

edit - pp my falco is stupid LOL cuz all my habits are based off my other characters

I Know you hardly practice anymore, but maybe somewhere you can find that will and fire that once drove your marth to be as **** as it used to be. It seems from your most recent posts that you kinda miss the days where your marth would just get off. I mean mango did mention how he remembers you ****** his puff with your marth. (Oh how times have changed). Its really all up to u though in the end.

 

[crush]

And you arent even in the MBR so you cannot see how accurate that post is >_>.

I lul'd

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i wonder if marths dtilt is any different in pal...

maybe NTSC has more hitstun so the slipoff->edge grab happens less?

 

[leffen]

You slipoff before you get hit by the Dthrow, just like you do with sheiks/CF dthrow on a daily basis (I hope...)

 

[crush]

Very accurate post.

Leffen it makes me sad that you throw away all of your oppurtunities to do good for the community/in your life in general.

You have the placings you would need to be well respected, and you would be liked if you made even a little less effort to be an *******, but you constantly choose not to do it .

Honestly, it makes me think that something is really wrong in your life that causes you to be so insecure about yourself and your region.

yeah i definitely agree with this very well thought out post :battlefield64:

also a new marth edgeguarding techique that is very useful can be found here if any of yall wann see it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXTFuZ7eCWo&feature=feedrec_grec_index

it takes place on :dreamland: not a garbage stage like :mkII: that is terrible for most matchups especially roy dittos

:yoshis: is also what i believe to be the most neutral stage in the game due to the way the plats aka platforms are. they are similar to :venom:'s plats

 

[Druggedfox]

Leffen, they can't start grabbing until two frames after the start of your jump according to the frame data posted in mogwai's thread. Falco's jump starts on frame 8 of the pressure string, and the first "red" frame isn't until frame 11. You're suggesting they can start grabbing two frames *before* the jump. Either I'm super confused on what the red and green means, his frame data is wrong, or you're saying completely nonsensical stuff. If someone wants to clarify for me that'd be pretty nice

 

[Redd]

Lol... posted from the wrong page.

Really wanna see someone do srs planking with jiggs!

 

[Van.]

EDIT@Van:
You honestly think I'm here to get respected and "to do good for my life in general".
I post exactly what I think if I believe I'm right, its not like I'm insulting people because I failed during the discussion (Intuition/Mow style) or hate on America at all (Mikehaggar style). If people cannot take anything from the recent discussion other than that I insult someone then you sir, are blind because of bias.
And you arent even in the MBR so you cannot see how accurate that post is >_>.

Fine. If you're against being respected and liked, thats your business- I'll respect that.

But your posts are very often indistinguishable from mow and mikehaggars posts (although i don't think mows posts are bad, he does insult people sometimes). You've told DF to "learn how to play this game" like 3 times today.

I don't really know what to say to your claim that you don't hate on America at all, because you and I both know it isn't true, and anyone who is unsure can just browse through some of your posts and detect that rather blatant regional bias.

As for me not being in the mbr, upon further investigation, I've concluded that you were correct. I should have mentioned that my bases for agreeing with mows post was that his description of your posts in the mbr seem to match your posts everywhere else pretty precisely, as I see it.

 

[leffen]

Leffen, they can't start grabbing until two frames after the start of your jump according to the frame data posted in mogwai's thread. Falco's jump starts on frame 8 of the pressure string, and the first "red" frame isn't until frame 11. You're suggesting they can start grabbing two frames *before* the jump. Either I'm super confused on what the red and green means, his frame data is wrong, or you're saying completely nonsensical stuff. If someone wants to clarify for me that'd be pretty nice

I count start of jump as when he start MOVING, it takes 14 frames before that point until he can FF (until the peak of his jump).

And I just tested this out in AR btw, guess who's right

"I don't really know what to say to your claim that you don't hate on America at all, because you and I both know it isn't true, and anyone who is unsure can just browse through some of your posts and detect that rather blatant regional bias."
Lmfao, are you kidding?
Show me your work kid (I trolled at BEAST2 thread btw since there were ppl saying stuff like "europeans have a well deserved reputation for smelling bad/showering less" >_>).