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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Druggedfox

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I sort of agree with you .. but can you give some examples?

:phone:
M2k has option coverage tricks like dthrow-->turn around dtilt (near the edge) and if they tech roll to the middle he turns back around and grabs. That's a more obvious one that everyone probably knows, but to this day pretty much no one does it as well as him. That's a well known one, but he has a *lot* of things like that with all his characters that are really good.

Another thing is his punishment game, also pretty self explanatory.

M2K also is really really really good at turning situations into 50/50s, or RPS situations... something most other marths can't quite do as well. This is particularly useful for him in situations where he can vastly outpunish the opponent, or the risk of the opponent guessing wrong can lead to a gimp etc.

Idk, its hard for me to explain really, without writing literally pages upon pages, or having a relatively in depth discussion. There's years upon years of discovery, can't really put it in one post. I just named a couple of random things as reference, and if you wanna talk to me some time about it I can... not gonna get the falco boards any more off topic though xD
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Hey yall, thought I'd ask since you guys have helped out in the past a very long time ago, but ca someone explain the rock, paper, scissors theory behind smash and how to apply it to your game? --particularly followups and ways to land for aerial attacks; also prediction, and playing proactively when against opponents...is it better to Calculate all the answers beforehand in your head like options you can use, or is it mainly reading opponents? I hear that word used a lot lately. What is "reading" in smash?
 

FoxLisk

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2 things:

1) the fact that mango still says m2k is the only person he's afraid of because m2k can sometimes just ****ing kill him off one grab speaks to m2k's as-yet-unreached punishing brutality

2) yesterday i did a sweet string of falco pressure that landed with me knocking my opponent offstage and then instead of kill him i taunted because i was up a stock and felt good about myself and he SD :D
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I don't think mango has said that in a while (kinda hard since he's been banned for over a year now) but honestly I think he would view pp or armada as more serious threats than m2k

:phone:
 

choknater

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come to think of it, i think fly amanita has a similar play style to mew2king

except fly is harder LOL

at least, the current mew2king
 

trahhSTEEZY

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i'm sure he also thought his crazy aggro fox would be enough to win genesis2

talk is cheap!

but i guess talk is hype, so continue on :D
 

Mr Wizzrobe

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Well I don't think Mango has played a serious Falcon against Armada, so we have no way of knowing how well he'd do.

I don't think he'd win, but I'm betting he would certainly surprise us. After all, he said his Fox was the best in the interview with stab and it CLEARLY was.
 

leffen

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quick points:
Mango shield pressure is NOT ungrabable, why the hell do you think he uses it so sparingly. Its just conditioning and the opponent being bad. Check any frame data and you'll understand. Oh, and please go on doing your "ungrabable" pressure, I see it has carried your falco very far.
dthrow dtilt is a horrible "option select" and you can easily DI out of it, please learn this game Druggedfox. And please explain how his RPS technique is good or even unique.

Walling sucks vs spacies, play m2k/ice style vs them. Fair/Dtilt/Jab give too little reward imo.
Armada > Mangos Falcon.
Everyone knew Mangos fox were "the best"
 

Druggedfox

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Leffen, I never said its ungrabbable due to frame data, its a spacing thing. As far as how far its carried me... My last tournament losses with falco are something along the lines of: mew2king, mew2king, mew2king, dr pp... That's better than a lot of people can say. Just because I cant travel hardly means my falco isn't effective.

When I get on a computer ill post some hitbox images so you can appreciate falcos tools instead of ignorantly assuming you know stuff.

:phone:
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Leffen, I never said its ungrabbable due to frame data, its a spacing thing. As far as how far its carried me... My last tournament losses with falco are something along the lines of: mew2king, mew2king, mew2king, dr pp... That's better than a lot of people can say. Just because I cant travel hardly means my falco isn't effective.

When I get on a computer ill post some hitbox images so you can appreciate falcos tools instead of ignorantly assuming you know stuff.

:phone:
All his hitbox images are here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300397
 

Druggedfox

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^Thanks mogwai :) :)



Okay, so look at that. There are two "sweetspot" ranges I generally go for.

1) At the max horizontal range for the grab, but slightly above it (it's a circle, it goes farther out to the right at 0 degrees than it does at say, 45 degrees, obviously). This creates the illusion of being within grab range when you're not. Even if you're fighting someone like marth, who has better grab range, it still works because you can be above that part of it.

2) Be essentially "inside" of your opponent, though you don't have to go to that extreme. Rather than be at somewhere between approximately 15-75 degrees on the circle, you can go for 105-165. It's the equivalent range, but on the side of the circle closer to your opponent.

If you short hop *immediately* out of your shine, and you're already in the correct horizontal position, you can momentarily be right outside the range of their grabs. As soon as you're about to descend back into the range, you can use a down air/neutral air/whatever and it creates delayed aerial pressure. Assuming you achieve the right spacings, they can't grab you on the way up, and because you're delaying the aerial they can't grab you between the aerial and the shine either (This is all assuming you land the initial aerial-->shine on shield).

A direct counter to this is to immediate aerial OoS. However, when fighting someone like falcon (who iirc has a grab hitbox that's shifted horizontally towards falcon, more than most characters' grabs) you have a lot more room to abuse something like this. It can be done on anyone, but you might not want to risk it against a peach (who might nair OoS and completely shift momentum) as much as you would against a falcon. Either way, its useful vs all characters, and is NOT a matter of frame data.

Falco's pressure is NOT frame safe, I know this. If you have the right spacings you can cover the wholes in the frame data by putting yourself in ungrabbable areas when you are vulnerable.

After this post, I don't care what you say. Here's a picture, there's my argument, there you go. It's probably possible that there's maybe a stray frame or two where falco ends up in the grab range despite good spacing, and sorry if that's the case. I've been doing this for a while, and its worked on every single opponent I've fought, bar mistakes from my end. I've also seen mango do it for quite a while. Even if its IS somehow grabbable at certain times, its a small enough window that it is 100% worth the risk/reward.

It's obviously not always the ideal choice, but its often a good way to feel out your opponent, as well as a good go-to option against characters with less defensive options (like falcon).
 

Dr Peepee

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Oh I don't disagree. But I would rather deemphasize finishers that KO when talking to new players, because you can gain such a huge advantage from a solid combo that it would be a shame to overextend yourself trying to get a KO. A perfect example that breaks my heart every time I see it is C.Falcons going for the dj.Knee after two uairs that have been DI'd hard down and away. They end up flubbing their opponent out of hitstun with no more options but to recover at the same time as their opponent, possibly even losing the race back to the ledge.

Once you know how your combos work, and why, then you'll know the times you can land finishers, and then you can do whatever you want. But until then, I'd rather see players playing solid.


I'd say more than anything that real world performance data can really only inform the discussion by possibly bringing to light effective strategies that aren't readily apparent in the frame data. But yes, frame and hitbox data are really all we have to go on. And that's not really a bad thing as long as you recognize the topic of discussion is abstract.


Word.
Ohhhh so you include hitbox data. I find hitbox data to be super important in matchups actually as it's a raw character trait that compares between two characters on commonly used approaches and defenses(like Fox Nair vs Falco uptilt or something). Frame data I'm not as big on though.

so like...when you play this game, are you supposed to actually think throughout the match? or is it more of a case-by-case thing
Well, typically when one is playing a match, you're always mixing prediction and reaction to adapt to the various situations you and your opponent find each other in. Since there's reacting involved, you have to know things to look for and how to respond to them. You, ideally, want to know as much about your opponent's style and character as possible so you know the possible adjustments they'll make when you play them. Because of these two things, I suggest that there is a lot of "pre-thinking" that occurs before even playing your matches.

This somewhat depends on your character and playstyle, but a lot of your big thinking will come before the match. While playing, it's usually tough to analyze everything while also keeping yourself tricky and try to react/predict quickly in response to your opponent. Personally, I like to slow the game down if something is happening that I don't understand so I can think about it more no matter who I'm playing, but also because Falco requires too many inputs for me to just slow down and think through my opponent. I also recommend taking time on the respawn platform to think about what happened the previous stock and how to beat it, because that can vital to changing a match when you don't want to wait until in between matches when you can't remember it all or it's less useful then.

Does that help or am I not quite getting at the problem?

Real fast stingers, I actually just read a great book and one of the things discussed was:

Practice -> Perform: Evaluate ----> Analyze ----> Practice.

I think in smash to improve your game and do the stuff peepee is talking about you have to put them in your game during the practice stage. You should already have all that down by the time you are performing. And the only things that should be changing is you adapting to your opponent...

So you should probably think in friendly games and have it all down in tournaments

Sorry my post is rushed
A very simple but very effective answer. =)

I find sometimes you have to break old habbits in order to improve as well.

like, right now I am working on trying to incorporate rolls into my game (which seems backwards at first glance)

I realized a while back that people actually do pick up on things like you never rolling just like they pick up on it if you roll often, and it makes it so people that play me do not have to guess as much.
Yup, rolls are definitely useful in anyone's game. Rolls and shields are actually pretty good in Melee(not much is safe on block and rolls end pretty quickly and you're invincible and take space lol that's beast).

It seems like yea ideally you would wall really well with Marth while maximizing punishment, but to what degree is that actually possible? Marth's ability to punish off of, say, a retreat rising fair is not comparable to Marth's ability to punish off of an advancing nair.

You can just retreat fair and then take space/tech chase and look for a grab with some pressure maybe and of course marth is going to punish mid/heavies and fastfallers very hard with grab. But that's kinda been the Marth gameplan for a long time I'd say. I guess you're just saying to mix it up? Between walling and aggressively taking space?

Yea I really like Marth's jab in that way you're talking about.

Marth's shield sucks.

So overall you're saying Marths need to focus on more of a walling style against Falco?
WAYYYYYYUL

I forgot to mention DD'ing LOL. F....

Alright but basically, yeah a solid walling type style combined with some variation in DD'ing is probably what Marth needs to be all about, and both of those tricks alone set aside from together could always use improvement.

Oh, and you misunderstand the concept of the wall. You cannot ONLY focus on the punishment aspect of this or you will get angsty and screw yourself over. Think about the wall's effects psychologically for a moment. If you are constantly outranging the opponent, then they will likely slow down in order to figure out how to beat it. This is when you could manipulate them more once you establish the threat of the wall or you could just approach and THEN punish lol. But, I mean, if you just beat out someone's approaches a few times then they may get desperate or really campy so it's not like getting a few individual single hits is some insane task you won't get rewarded for. Besides, CC'ing at low percents is weak to being outspaced, and you can rack up damage to beat CC'ing or to condition them to quit using it at certain times. I guess, thinking on this more, there's a better way to say it, but I'm looking at all the advantages and aside from a quick punishment rather than a psychological and then quick punishment this seems like a really sick tactic to use.

How about.......walling is great even if you can't punish because of its psychological effects and setups, and constantly outspacing your opponent keeps you safe and them taking damage. That seems good.

I think Marth's shield is great actually. It's pretty big and covers his big character, and being able to WD out of it opens up a lot of doors for him, especially with that big WD he has.

vs Falco, well sort of but Falco's lasers make it so you have to almost threaten more than you wall. That's a pretty good way of describing it I think.

The threat of trading a laser with like Ftilt or Fsmash or them Fair'ing OOS at me or other such Marth tricks are what the matchup is all about for Marth, and it effectively slows down Falco so Marth can then establish his regular type of game over a slower character with big moves that really only exist behind him(Dair kinda but you can outspace that eaiser than uptilt or Bair). Not sure how useful this explanation is but I'm assuming you'll ask questions if it's not clear haha.

^Thanks mogwai :) :)



Okay, so look at that. There are two "sweetspot" ranges I generally go for.

1) At the max horizontal range for the grab, but slightly above it (it's a circle, it goes farther out to the right at 0 degrees than it does at say, 45 degrees, obviously). This creates the illusion of being within grab range when you're not. Even if you're fighting someone like marth, who has better grab range, it still works because you can be above that part of it.

2) Be essentially "inside" of your opponent, though you don't have to go to that extreme. Rather than be at somewhere between approximately 15-75 degrees on the circle, you can go for 105-165. It's the equivalent range, but on the side of the circle closer to your opponent.

If you short hop *immediately* out of your shine, and you're already in the correct horizontal position, you can momentarily be right outside the range of their grabs. As soon as you're about to descend back into the range, you can use a down air/neutral air/whatever and it creates delayed aerial pressure. Assuming you achieve the right spacings, they can't grab you on the way up, and because you're delaying the aerial they can't grab you between the aerial and the shine either (This is all assuming you land the initial aerial-->shine on shield).

A direct counter to this is to immediate aerial OoS. However, when fighting someone like falcon (who iirc has a grab hitbox that's shifted horizontally towards falcon, more than most characters' grabs) you have a lot more room to abuse something like this. It can be done on anyone, but you might not want to risk it against a peach (who might nair OoS and completely shift momentum) as much as you would against a falcon. Either way, its useful vs all characters, and is NOT a matter of frame data.

Falco's pressure is NOT frame safe, I know this. If you have the right spacings you can cover the wholes in the frame data by putting yourself in ungrabbable areas when you are vulnerable.

After this post, I don't care what you say. Here's a picture, there's my argument, there you go. It's probably possible that there's maybe a stray frame or two where falco ends up in the grab range despite good spacing, and sorry if that's the case. I've been doing this for a while, and its worked on every single opponent I've fought, bar mistakes from my end. I've also seen mango do it for quite a while. Even if its IS somehow grabbable at certain times, its a small enough window that it is 100% worth the risk/reward.

It's obviously not always the ideal choice, but its often a good way to feel out your opponent, as well as a good go-to option against characters with less defensive options (like falcon).
S this is some S

I need to shield pressure more.
 

leffen

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1) At the max horizontal range for the grab, but slightly above it (it's a circle, it goes farther out to the right at 0 degrees than it does at say, 45 degrees, obviously). This creates the illusion of being within grab range when you're not. Even if you're fighting someone like marth, who has better grab range, it still works because you can be above that part of it.
1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again
This is the pillar you are talking about (any earlier would be grabbed after aerial).
It has 18, EIGHTEEN, free frames. This means Falcon can (for example):
-WD oos->Shield before your next aerial
-Jump Uair
-UpB oos.
-FH away
-FH stomp.

This is when neither dair or shine is staled at all, so you'll probably have ~20 frames at the start and ~7 on the end on average.
As for grab: Falco takes 14, FOURTEEN frames before he reaches the peak of his jump (where he is needed to be to avoid grab, give or take 2 frames, so lets say 12).
Falcon grabs him when he has traveled for 5 frames, where he can EASILY grab you. If I had to guess I'd say he can grab you until frame 9 (prob frame 7 if he jumps backwards). This gives falcon a 5 frame window for him to grab you ASSUMING you have never hit shine before.

Oh, and any "horizontal" spacing can easily be defeated by Shield DI, not that it is required in this case.
2) Be essentially "inside" of your opponent, though you don't have to go to that extreme. Rather than be at somewhere between approximately 15-75 degrees on the circle, you can go for 105-165. It's the equivalent range, but on the side of the circle closer to your opponent.
Except for all the previous options, he can now also SH bair. Probably though, you'd just Shield DI a tiny bit backwards and grab before the aerial, or after the shine that'll miss.
Easy.


@All your bull**** johns.

I never said it wasnt good or that it didnt work at times. Im just saying its not ungrabable, and you knew this from the very start.
Please do not ignorantly assume that you know stuff and read what the fk Im saying.

EDIT:

@PP: You should use Multishines since normal aerial to shine is like playing RPS with your opponent where you cannot pick Rock.

@M2K: First off, I'm a Yoshi/Fox main. Secondly, I'm not sure I think he loses to any of em, I'm just saying I can see him losing them/going even but not winning them.

And you REALLY shouldnt talk lol, you wanted to ban Jigglypuff cause you lost to her when you play Meta Knight in brawl LOL.
 

leffen

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Jeez Mogwai. I said I can SEE him losing, not that I necessarily do. I however cannot see him winning any of those matchups bar Sheik.

Oh, and him not having a winning matchup vs anyone else in the top 6 doesnt mean he is worse than any of them (he has the best matchup vs fox imo, while still losing and does better than Marth and Sheik vs Jigglypuff )
 
D

Deleted member

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Honestly, I can see falco losing to Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Puff. I dont see him winning any of those at least tbh.
lol how did I miss this.

"Dear Nintendo,

Please nerf paper. Scissors is fine.

Love, Rock"

dthrow dtilt is a horrible "option select" and you can easily DI out of it, please learn this game Druggedfox.
Actually Marth's downthrow dtilt is an excellent trap and it doesn't matter whether you DI it or not. Marth has several very good traps that I'm pretty sure no one in this topic knows except m2k, me because he told me, and the people I've told (pp/druggedfox).
 

ShroudedOne

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I think the Falco/Fox MU in terms of who wins should be banned from discussion, cause that one changes so much that it doesn't even matter to discuss who wins. Just discuss the options one has against the other.

=P
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Jeez Mogwai. I said I can SEE him losing, not that I necessarily do. I however cannot see him winning any of those matchups bar Sheik.
He beats Fox. Super Theory Brothers doesn't mean anything, Falco players have consistently put up a > 50% winrate vs. Fox players and I just don't understand how anyone who's played the matchup can seriously say that there's no way it's better than even for Falco. I can see people saying they think it goes one way or the other or is even, but it's just flat out silly to suggest that it's at best even and there's no way that Falco wins it.

I personally think he wins every single one of those matchups, but I have my biases and I know that everyone else will have their's. I accept that people will think whatever they want about those matchups and they're all close enough to even that personal bias can drive it either way until you get to Falcon who he pretty clearly ***** sideways. But to say that you see no way that he's better than even vs. them is just dumb IMO.

Oh, and him not having a winning matchup vs anyone else in the top 6 doesnt mean he is worse than any of them (he has the best matchup vs fox imo, while still losing and does better than Marth and Sheik vs Jigglypuff )
I don't care about how you chose to stack them all up, I'm saying that it's silly to say that you can't see any of the top 6 being winning matchups for Falco. I'm not saying anything about where they fall tier list-wise or anything so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.
 

leffen

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1+ to Mow for not understanding a ****. I didnt complain or do ****, since I dont even play falco anymore, it makes even less sense to accuse me of whining.

Dthrow Dtilt on the edge can easily be beaten by just DI'ng to the ledge to slipoff (from the throw or the Dtilt). And when you consider the much better options at hand I really cant see why you would chose to Dtilt. For example, you can easily dthrow and just react and tipper fsmash notech/roll away.

What does dtilt have over fsmash/upthrow? 0~24%, Uthrow CG/Tipper/Jab reset gives much better reward. 24~70%(after that they can DI waaaaayyy too much for it to ever really work) you still have Uthrow ->tipper/utilt/uair etc, or a normal tipper/dash attack/Side B/Dsmash/Ftilt.

I've tried and talked about this with Ice and Hack and they both agree with me that you should just use it as a mixup and hope they don't react to the throw with correct DI when you use it.
And jesus, I really hate you talking 2006 metagame and thinking it's oh so secret and new. Please
 

Mew2King

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my marth is like 10 times worse than it was last year. he's like my 6th best character now. I know cuz I've played cactuar recently with every character, and my marth can't do half the **** I could do last year and it's nothing like I was at FCD or super champ combo. As an overall player I've improved, maybe, but it's only with a ton of useless characters so as a tournament threat i would be worse.

as far as brawl goes, before brawl came out I said to myself I want to be the best at this game, and I decided BEFORE the game came out, to only focus on one character and fully master them for every matchup, on every stage, and for teams too. First 1-3 weeks it was marth and DDD, then just DDD (and I was very very good with him, I won all the NJ and md/va tourneys [except when azen would beat me twice] for many many months) then after I won fast1 with ddd (i even 3 stocked seibrik in dittos back then and beat his snake/mk too all 6 games in grand finals of a FL tourney the week after) i decided I'd go all MK. I put more work into metaknight totaled than i ever did with any 1 melee character, by far. In melee I actually enjoy playing the other characters. I'm addicted to 0-death type of things, and many melee characters can play like that.

edit - pp my falco is stupid LOL cuz all my habits are based off my other characters
 

Dr Peepee

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Lmao Jason I was being sarcastic. Top level players seem to handle 99% of Falcos just fine so either it's a player thing(Mango, Zhu sometimes, and I) are just good and would do well anyway(which Mango has proven and maybe I'll prove eventually), or those other Falcos aren't doing something right.

Wasn't actually calling out your Falco. XD
 

leffen

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Mogwai:
I'm not gonna discuss this here, we have a thread in the MBR and Fox outperforms Falco by a fair bit currently (no top fox vs top falco have been played recently that a falco has won). If you just read the thread you can also see that pretty much everyone except Unknown522 (who thinks it and Fox-Marth is 4-6 for fox...) thinks Falco is both worse and that he loses in the matchup.

@Mew2King

I didnt ask for why you played MetaKnight, I just said that it's hypocritical since you have a very biased view 99% of the time.
 

Mew2King

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if a jigglypuff as good as hungrybox started planking properly and with no ledge grab limit she would definitely be better than metaknight is in this current ruleset (when MK has a LGL). I still stand by that. It makes getting a lead way too rewarding vs the 3 fast fallers.
 
D

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What does dtilt have over fsmash/upthrow? 0~24%, Uthrow CG/Tipper/Jab reset gives much better reward. 24~70%(after that they can DI waaaaayyy too much for it to ever really work) you still have Uthrow ->tipper/utilt/uair etc, or a normal tipper/dash attack/Side B/Dsmash/Ftilt.
that'd be great had I not banned FD like any reasonable fox player against marth.

in 2006, marths still killed you when they did stuff. i'll stick to what works thanks.
 

GOTM

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I think the whole matchup chart thing is ********. "This character is better b/c assuming top level play, blah blah blah". Assumptions are ******** 99% of the time, unless you're assuming you shouldn't be making assumptions.

IMO there's no way to truly tell who has an advantage in a matchup unless there's sufficient and consistent results to "prove" so.

the fox/falco matchup is so stupid honestly, lol. i dont see any reason why it shouldn't be considered even. some fox's like it some dont. i think more falco's seem to enjoy it than not though. falco's probably have a better history vs. fox. if you were gonna go on anything i dont see how you cannot go on that
 

Niko45

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You can also DI the Marth down throw in, tech in place, and then CC the non-tipped dtilt and proceed to ****. Dthrow dtilt is a very good mixup but it's not a full proof "trap" at all.
 

leffen

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that'd be great had I not banned FD like any reasonable fox player against marth.

in 2006, marths still killed you when they did stuff. i'll stick to what works thanks.
I like how you assume that you cannot use Fsmash on platform stages.

Oh and the new ruleset (along with the old european one) doesnt have bans.

Old marth style classic was Uthrow->dthrow Fsmash, M2K was the only one that didnt do it lol (and he didnt need that one since he was far beyond the spacies he faced at that time).
 
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