Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

[ZeonStar]

Ok, from this point on, after Ganon's sideb is polished and finalized, I dont think Ganon needs anymore buffs. He feels very viable and very dangerous in high level play, his size and bad recovery is his only downfalls. Only thing that needs to be done now is little fixes and tweaks, for example, after upb, characters can attack IMMEDIATELY after ganon releases them from his electric hump, depending on their percent.

Also, im not sure how youd do it, but getting the downsmash so both hits could connect consistently would also be ideal, other than that, theres nothing else on ganon that really needs done IMO.

 

[stRIP]

Ok, from this point on, after Ganon's sideb is polished and finalized, I dont think Ganon needs anymore buffs. He feels very viable and very dangerous in high level play, his size and bad recovery is his only downfalls. Only thing that needs to be done now is little fixes and tweaks, for example, after upb, characters can attack IMMEDIATELY after ganon releases them from his electric hump, depending on their percent.

Also, im not sure how youd do it, but getting the downsmash so both hits could connect consistently would also be ideal, other than that, theres nothing else on ganon that really needs done IMO.

They already added hitstun to the UpB ~

 

[ZeonStar]

They already added hitstun to the UpB ~

Really? When? Because I was hit with an attack right out of my upb recently, not sure when, but if it comes to memory, im pretty sure it was recent. Ill need to do some testing.

 

[VietGeek]

Really? When? Because I was hit with an attack right out of my upb recently, not sure when, but if it comes to memory, im pretty sure it was recent. Ill need to do some testing.

We added attack ID 0F (hitstun), however that didn't fix the problem at all.

This is probably a throw and not a move. We do not have a throw modifier so it's not fixable yet.

Just time your Shoryukens. With NASL the hitbox seems to deceptively last for quite a while and it should ridiculously kill at 60 per-

nvm wrong project. <.<

 

[ZeonStar]

We added attack ID 0F (hitstun), however that didn't fix the problem at all.

This is probably a throw and not a move. We do not have a throw modifier so it's not fixable yet.

Just time your Shoryukens. With NASL the hitbox seems to deceptively last for quite a while and it should ridiculously kill at 60 per-

nvm wrong project. <.<

Ahahaha, I think I dont blame them for doing that, ganon blows hard, even if you buff him pretty hard, youd have to buff him SERIOUSLY ****ING HARD in vbrawl to make him balanced, which is why they did all that crazy ****, so if your metaknight, and you want a free easy gimp on ganon, you better be scared mah boi.

Basically, without his lcanceled Fair, ive learned hes pretty much trash unless you double his damage or some **** LMFAO

 

[RPGsFTW]

I beg to differ sir!

You also said that you haven't seen anyone down-b to get their second jump back. I do it all the time, makes it scarier to follow me in the air to since you might get spiked and harder since down b sends you down so low many characters can't follow. I guess it's kind of like toon link is hard to gimp since he can get so low and still get back up.

What are you talking about? I said that Captain Falcon DOES NOT get his 2nd jump back from his aerial Down-B, not Ganon.

And the thing about his Down-B I said earlier is that it is not the safest way to kill someone off stage. If I Down-B sideways, that means on stage to off stage, or jump to aerial Down-B off stage, I am being put in a bad position, as it is very easy to dodge such an attack, and if dodged, leaves Ganon very vulnerable to edgeguarding =P

And recovering with his Down-B, double jump is both safe and dangerous. I don't know where you thought I said it was bad :/

 

[Rkey]

What are you talking about? I said that Captain Falcon DOES NOT get his 2nd jump back from his aerial Down-B, not Ganon.

And the thing about his Down-B I said earlier is that it is not the safest way to kill someone off stage. If I Down-B sideways, that means on stage to off stage, or jump to aerial Down-B off stage, I am being put in a bad position, as it is very easy to dodge such an attack, and if dodged, leaves Ganon very vulnerable to edgeguarding =P

And recovering with his Down-B, double jump is both safe and dangerous. I don't know where you thought I said it was bad :/

Yeah ok, I'll just stop. You probably know what you're talking about but I don't understand.

 

[ZeonStar]

Im not sure if Ganondorf's downb as an edgeguard could be considered too good or not, it almost seems like if mastered, could be too easy to edgeguard opponents with the right precision. But then again, if you miss, you might be pretty much screwed. What are your opinions on this?

 

[Shell]

WizSpike is quite balanced right now.

On the good side, the first hit is a very strong meteor, and the rest of the attack has a large hitbox and long duration capable of catching spot dodgers.

On the bad side, the main hitbox of the move isn't really too strong of a "spike" until 60ish percent provided your opponent can MC. Furthermore, while the first hit is strong, it has 16 frames of telegraphed, stationary startup, requiring some mindgames to land. Finally, the move puts him in a worse position than any other spike that I can think of, with Mario's horrible Fair endlag a close second.

 

[CloneHat]

Ganon's dair has less lag and doesn't go as far as in Melee, however, so he can perform it much lower on the screen, say, from a ledgegrab, and still make it easily to the ledge. It's very good at spiking at people's recoveries, and even if you miss it is still relatively safe. (Missed Wizkick>Double Jump>Stomp>UpB)

 

[ephtaup]

wiztruck to dair is one of my favorite set-ups to a spike

but you have to learn where to do wiz truck so your right on the edge

 

[Rkey]

Will we be posting combos soon? I have a nice one:

Dair -> d-tilt (make sure it makes them go slightly backwards) -> turnaround grab d-throw -> uair -> fair/wiztruck

0-death if finished near the edge ^_^ DI-able, but whatever

Oh, and did u know u can dair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> fair/wiztruck a bowser? Wieeee!!

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Ganon stomps on stuff and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[leechiahan]

Will we be posting combos soon? I have a nice one:

Dair -> d-tilt (make sure it makes them go slightly backwards) -> turnaround grab d-throw -> uair -> fair/wiztruck

0-death if finished near the edge ^_^ DI-able, but whatever

Oh, and did u know u can dair -> uair -> uair -> uair -> fair/wiztruck a bowser? Wieeee!!

You can pretty much just combo naturally by playing Ganon for a while. I don't see a need for a combo list, other than the obligatory D-tilt/F-tilt after murder choke for the new Ganons.

 

[Shell]

I think Vex already made the Ganon combo list.

Seriously, though, I don't think he needs cookie cutter combos spelled out, but what would be more helpful is a list of what attacks certain moves link into at X percents on most characters given Y DI.

 

[quinnydinny]

Ganon is way too good on Warioware.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ganon is way too good on Warioware.

It was even better with the smaller sides then what we have now. I got legit jab kills.

 

[Swoops]

Alright, seeing as I'm really into Brawl+ right now, and especially Ganon+, I think I better mention some stuff I found that is awesome...extremely awesome. This is all the 4.2 nightly by the way, because they can't tech.

First off, most testing is done by myself with two controllers >>, but most of this seems to be pretty solid.

Both of the things I found were with murder choke, which seems to have gotten some interesting new properties. The first is, if you catch someone who is in the air with a ground choke, a interesting effect happens. Instead of your opponent dropping right to the ground, he'll do this weird twitching animation first. It kinda looks like the animation that happens when the character is sliding, from something like Jiggz' d-smash. The cool thing about this animation is that they're stuck in the air for a bit, while you continue through with your animation. This gives you a good bit of extra advantage. What can you do with this extra advantage? You can land any smash you please. You can land a free f-smash for the kill, an u-smash to chase them into the air for extra damage, or a d-smash if...you feel like d-smashing.

I thought this would be pretty situational, because you have to catch them with the choke right above the ground for it to work. But, I seem to be doing it on accident a lot, and I've found pretty reliable ways to set it up. We all know stomp has a lot of stun, but for quite a few characters, at certain percents you can stomp them and they can't do anything but tech. They can't even DI, all they can do is input an initial DI and then they fall straight down. U-smash seems to do this too, as well as the second hitbox of the air wizkick. I'm currently testing to see if d-throw can set this up too. The stomp stun is the craziest on Falcon...it seems like he can't do anything but tech until around 58%.

The second thing I found with choke is much more situational. But it means an instant death if you can land it. A lot of people are already using the huge momentum boost of choke to take people to their dooms. But, I found something weird around the edge. If you get them at a certain point with the air choke (usually right near the ledge if they are on the ground, and farther into the stage the higher you both are) you'll take them right to the edge and, if you do it right, you'll slam them right off the edge. Only, unlike vBrawl, they end up going right into a freefall state where, they can't do anything whatsoever. They can't double jump, they can't use their upb, they can't attack or even airdodge. They are completely screwed. Oh and the animation doesn't look like it's wall-techable either.

Thought some of you guys might want to see this, I thought it was pretty **** cool. If this stuff has been mentioned though, well...my bad >>

 

[Finns7]

true about last thing I got a replay of this, personally I dont like no tech in choke

 

[Swoops]

true about last thing I got a replay of this, personally I dont like no tech in choke

Eh, I'm okay with it. At first I liked the tech being in there for some reason, but now I'm glad I still get the guaranteed follow ups that I've always known. It's not like I lose mindgames with no tech.

 

[Finns7]

It just feels too automated to me, in normal brawl I loved it cus we all kno ganon NEEDED it but in plus idk.
It feels rewarding to mindgame someone with tech.

GUYS remember in Oot when you fought ganon as link? when you reflect his energy beams he reflects them back, SO LETS MAKE GANONS BAIR AND FAIR HAVE PROJECTILE PROPERTIES

 

[goodoldganon]

Eh, I'm okay with it. At first I liked the tech being in there for some reason, but now I'm glad I still get the guaranteed follow ups that I've always known. It's not like I lose mindgames with no tech.

Agreed. Ganon needs no tech on side-b it's just the current one is a little buggy. Leading to things like a guaranteed smash attack.

 

[Swoops]

Agreed. Ganon needs no tech on side-b it's just the current one is a little buggy. Leading to things like a guaranteed smash attack.

-_- don't you dare try to take away my guaranteed smash attacks.

 

[goodoldganon]

-_- don't you dare try to take away my guaranteed smash attacks.

I'll look into it. I haven't played Brawl+ in 2 week. I got a bunch of cool new Wii games I've been playing instead.

 

[Swoops]

I'll look into it. I haven't played Brawl+ in 2 week. I 'obtained' a bunch of cool new Wii games I've been playing instead.

I'm 99.9% positive it's guaranteed. "Obtained?".......you stole them?! O.o

 

[goodoldganon]

Well from a friend. He's going to study abroad for 6 months so I stole a bunch of his games while he is gone. He's not using em.

 

[Swoops]

Well, as of the July 21st update...I don't think the free smashes are possible anymore -_-...****. Oh, at least you get free reverse jabs out of aerial choke.

EDIT: Ugh, I don't know...I keep trying to download the nightly build with the automatic update file, but it keeps giving me a build with techable gerudo. I'm tired and I'm going to bed >>

 

[goodoldganon]

They removed untechable side-b at the moment because it was too buggy I guess.

 

[shanus]

Agreed. Ganon needs no tech on side-b it's just the current one is a little buggy. Leading to things like a guaranteed smash attack.

Aren't you the one calling the game too easy, but require sideB give guaranteed connections beyond just a jab?

lol


Hence why we thought about doing this:

Techable sideB, damage increased to 13 from 9, sped up with fast enough endlag to guarantee a jab. This will give him a guaranteed 20 dmg OR he can go for the tech chase and get 13 + techchase. This gives him probable odds of prolly 3/4 times going for the tech chase but with a guaranteed damage builder in proportional damage to sideB dtilt.

 

[goodoldganon]

Side-b being untechable is huge because it keeps Ganondorf unique as a character and gives him the move that defined him from Falcon. Like Falco has stun lasers and Toon Link has aerial game, Ganondorf has a Murder Choke. By not allowing any setups that do something beneficial for Ganondorf you are gonna basically remove the move from his moveset.

Let me just pick apart the current idea we have and why it's just wrong and frankly not fun. First off, side-b was never about the damage. Sure 9% is nice but I'll land 1 or 2 a stock at most. I can go whole matches and never land one. If untechable side-b did 0% I'd still try for it because:

Of the setups, specifically d-tilt and it's ability to pop people into the air. For some bizarre reason Old Manondorf is an aerial machine, specifically U-air and F-air. Jab was only used if the was a propable chance you could set up an edgeguard, but it's all about the D-tilt.

By removing those options you put all the pressure on Ganondorf and less pressure on the defender, the one who ****ed up royally to get hit by a side-b. With your idea people are either going to get jabbed (which isn't all the useful for a number of reasons) or they have a number of options each of varying speed and invincibility to escape Ganondorf. Sure, I've caught people next to an edge with the untechable side-b and watched them try and roll behind me only to get F-smash'd, but catching a decent player next to the edge is something you'll rarely see.

So basically we give Ganondorf a ****ty guaranteed option because it knocks people back a pretty far amount away meaning Ganon has to approach again. Or we leave him having to predict a number of options from other characters. Once grabbed the opponent is either:

-Hit with a jab
-Techs left
-Techs right
-Techs in place
-Waits then rolls left
-Waits then rolls right
-Waits then stands up
-Get up attack

Since any speed up to the release will have to make sure Ganondorf can't tech chase the side-b on reaction he will have to have already partially committed to an attack after he releases.

So even though I was able to grab someone with a slow, predictable move I now have to guess one of 7 different outcomes, or just jab then knowing it's basically fruitless. Screw that, I'm just gonna thunderstorm em. It puts people in ******** hitstun so I can get a shadow shoryuken off if they don't die, or I'll at least have them above me so I can start a juggle. Or maybe I'll do a d-throw and hope to get a F-air off.

Side-b is what made Ganondorf unique in Brawl. By removing side-b you are basically making Brawl Ganondorf into Melee Dorf who was awesome, but had his time for 7 years. We gave him a Melee F-air, a melee-esque b-air, a melee wiz kick, the melee down-b jump thing, and by making side-b techable you'll be giving him another mostly useless side-b. Without that side-b I have almost no new Brawl tactics to use for Ganondorf and frankly I don't want to play a character I played for 7 years.

With a techable side-b Ganondorf is just boring. He loses a massive mindgame advantage by always having that card up his sleeve and he loses major coolness points. Believe me, if anyone understands the work it takes to code this crap, it's me but I refuse to let us take what I feel is the easy way out on the problem instead of trying to fix a slightly buggy untechable side-b.

 

[leafgreen386]

I've made this suggestion numerous times, but it would require a new code in order to make it work.

Basically, the choke would have IASA with jab and dtilt starting the moment he releases the character, enabling him to get either off on every character in the game. If ganon wants to try for an outright kill move off of the sideB, he'll need to try to techchase, but if he wants to combo, he's free to do so. It preserves the combo followups without making the techchasing too easy, and it looks awesome, too.

 

[shanus]

a guaranteed tech chase is far from useless side-B, gross over exaggeration.

It's not what he is used to, but you also have the potential for so much more than just a dtilt.


You say predict one out of 7 options. If they don't tech, you can dtilt or jab ON reaction. That means you *only* have to predict 1 of 3 options if you choose to not jab, and that can be influenced by environmental hazards or stage positioning as well.

Also, you make no sense "He loses a mindgame advantage." Clearly having guaranteed follow-ups is a mindgame advantage. 20-22% or 13% plus a chance for a kill set up or a defined kill. Being punished out of shield? Already something I'm concerned about.

It's funny how I see you complain the game is too easy, but untechable sideB seems to be the easy route to me.

 

[Revven]

Yeah umm, Side B techchases are legit. See Zeon plz, he ***** you out the *** with Side B...

I call you guys out on Side B fixing as a way of saying "I can't techchase with Side B!" Because after seeing what Zeon can do and playing him (even if it WAS online, it wouldn't be any different offline) it is very possible to techchase with Side B and get at least more than 30% on someone if you predict right and have taken time to practice all the options from Side B...

IMO, it should stay techable + add damage onto the Side B.

Edit: I am not saying that you can't techchase with it GoG and I'm not saying that to Zeon either (as it is, he also wants Side B guaranteed follow-ups) however, it is still making the game easier regardless... at least for Ganon.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well boys we are outnumbered. Unless there is a radical change of mind side-b is probably gonna be made techable. Ganon mains are better then everyone else so we'll just rise to the challenge to overcome new obstacles, instead of whine and get it changed. So what are your guys ideas for the new side-b?

Speed up the start and a little bit of the release to help him have any chance of a tech chase. Leave damage alone. Speed up should be enough of a buff if it's techable and you'd honestly see it a lot more helping keep him diverse.

Go with Shanus's idea

Find a way to give an option at getting people into the air after a side-b.

 

[ZeonStar]

Aren't you the one calling the game too easy, but require sideB give guaranteed connections beyond just a jab?

lol


Hence why we thought about doing this:

Techable sideB, damage increased to 13 from 9, sped up with fast enough endlag to guarantee a jab. This will give him a guaranteed 20 dmg OR he can go for the tech chase and get 13 + techchase. This gives him probable odds of prolly 3/4 times going for the tech chase but with a guaranteed damage builder in proportional damage to sideB dtilt.

This sounds good, I personally would like to be able to have sideb gauranteed hits, but this route doesnt seem too bad either. Damage increase is a MUST on sideb, 12-15 sounds about right, and 13 hits the mark id say.

Also, in the latest nightly build, Ganons upthrow doesnt really work the way it should, ive said countless times that Ganon's upthrow lag is HUGE and even in the lower position that it puts the opponent in now, Ganons upthrow endlag is way too massive to even jump and follow up with an attack before their hitstun ends, it literally lasts for almost 2 seconds.

 

[Swordplay]

I actually really like Leafs idea.

I've been playin ganon for a bit now and GOG is right. Jab isn't that great out of choke. The real gravy is landing that d-tilt as it can lead to juicy stuff like u-air combo's or even fair/bair on poor DI.

Ganon needs to be able to hit with D-tilt. Considering how often you land murder choke is only 1 maybe 2 times a stock, the move needs to be a little more rewarding than a tech chase situation or a free jab for extra damage. D-tilt is more or less a setup move which makes the move more rewarding than a jab for extra damage. I'd rather have choke and D-tilt do 1 damage each if they connected and I could combo out of them. Ganon is suppose to **** you if he gets you, not let you get away.

You need to kick people while their down on the ground helpless :D How evil is that :D. Look I am FINE if its made techchasable if you choose to not use jab but jab isn't rewarding enough. D-tilt should also be in there.

I know my logic is not as solid as yours but its just my opinion. Thus, I think Leaf's idea is the best but without the code, I'll agree upon shanus's.

 

[metaXzero]

Is it already known that you if you do the airborne Wizard Kick shortly after jumping, you can skip to the landing part almost instantaneously?

 

[ZeonStar]

Is it already known that you if you do the airborne Wizard Kick shortly after jumping, you can skip to the landing part almost instantaneously?

Yeah, its called Murder Quake, pretty much known since brawl came out.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Is there a OoT Ganon skin? Need more nostalgia.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah, its called Murder Quake, pretty much known since brawl came out.

Is it actually useful now, or is it still useless like it was in vbrawl?