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Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People
- Thread starter goodoldganon
- Start date
Veril
Frame Savant
Wifi is crap. Wifi+ is crap+.
It would be a glitch if it hit
Anyway, Ganon is fine now with the latest series of buffs. He feels so solid to me. <3 down-b. The only issues I have are the completely useless warlock punch and nearly useless up-tilt. People say you can edgeguard with that move... but not against anyone with a decent recovery. Besides, Ganon has so many other edgeguarding options, why bother? Two useless moves
I really do think he's reached the point of being a viable character, though I think the idea of a single main is antiquated in a well balanced CP system. Anyway, I'm starting a monthly blog, and I'll be posting a bunch of stuff on Ganon+. You may want to check it out later.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I'm currently brainstorming on possible modifications to the Punch, leaving the U-tilt to be a lulzy whiffed-rest-punisher / occasional edgeguard.
Let's avoid cluttering this thread with buff talk, but feel free to send me PMs or hit me up on IRC to talk about possible Punch changes.
Also, I've found ledge-hopped Uair and ledge-hopped AD to be solid ways to get back up from the ledge. Were both of these in vBrawl? I haven't seen enough people (including myself) taking advantage of these quick and decently safe options. Also, you can ledge-hop stomp, although you only really hit someone practically teetering on the edge.
Let's avoid cluttering this thread with buff talk, but feel free to send me PMs or hit me up on IRC to talk about possible Punch changes.
Also, I've found ledge-hopped Uair and ledge-hopped AD to be solid ways to get back up from the ledge. Were both of these in vBrawl? I haven't seen enough people (including myself) taking advantage of these quick and decently safe options. Also, you can ledge-hop stomp, although you only really hit someone practically teetering on the edge.
Revven
FrankerZ
Ledgehop AD was definitely possible in vBrawl (just really freakin' hard to do) but, Uair was not.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
So I think ganon's actually tourney viable now...maybe...That excites me.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Certainly viable, but I'd still argue he hangs in the lower half of the cast.
But, as you said, that excites me about the potential for character diversity.
timothyung
Smash Ace
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
So, tell me, have you removed that bug where a recovering Ganondorf has that frame lag from the ledge?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Yes, that was know as the triple jump glitch and only Lucario is still affected by it.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Oh goody.
Now, since the topic of how to make utilt and WP useful has come up again, here's my two cents.
For utilt, there're two ways that you can change it. The first would be to simply keep it like it is, and speed it up drastically, making actually usable as an edgeguard or normal move.
The second, however, is the one that you might do, and is probably the more complicated one at that. It would involve changing the wind effect surrounding it, and improving it to such a degree that it sucks characters into the sweetspot not only from in front of Ganon, but also behind, and even affecting the momentum of characters in the air. Once trapped in the wind, they would have a hard time getting out with simply ground movement, requiring something like a jump or a roll in order to escape.
Now, since the topic of how to make utilt and WP useful has come up again, here's my two cents.
For utilt, there're two ways that you can change it. The first would be to simply keep it like it is, and speed it up drastically, making actually usable as an edgeguard or normal move.
The second, however, is the one that you might do, and is probably the more complicated one at that. It would involve changing the wind effect surrounding it, and improving it to such a degree that it sucks characters into the sweetspot not only from in front of Ganon, but also behind, and even affecting the momentum of characters in the air. Once trapped in the wind, they would have a hard time getting out with simply ground movement, requiring something like a jump or a roll in order to escape.
Zerxion
Smash Apprentice
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
So can anyone answer me this:
When doing a ledgehopped Uair, sometimes it'll be lagless while other times it'll have a hint of crouching land lag. Can anyone tell me what is the determining factor for this?
Last week I spent the better part of an hour trying to figure out what it is. It's not that you have to input things fast enough to get the attack out fast enough to AC -- varying the speed from fast and precise to slow and more relaxed produced successes and failures across the board.
I thought it might be important to land as close to the ledge as possible, maybe negating the lag with some strange form of ledge-cancel. However, the exact distance landed from the edge didn't seem to matter.
I also thought it'd only work if I tapped the stick away as lightly as possible to let go of the ledge to stay close to it. Variations in this didn't seem to matter, either.
I also made doubly sure that I wasn't buffering in a crouch afterward.
The most consistent way I found of doing it was letting Ganon drop for several frames before initiating the ledge-hop, and then imputing things as quickly and fluidly as possible.
When doing a ledgehopped Uair, sometimes it'll be lagless while other times it'll have a hint of crouching land lag. Can anyone tell me what is the determining factor for this?
Last week I spent the better part of an hour trying to figure out what it is. It's not that you have to input things fast enough to get the attack out fast enough to AC -- varying the speed from fast and precise to slow and more relaxed produced successes and failures across the board.
I thought it might be important to land as close to the ledge as possible, maybe negating the lag with some strange form of ledge-cancel. However, the exact distance landed from the edge didn't seem to matter.
I also thought it'd only work if I tapped the stick away as lightly as possible to let go of the ledge to stay close to it. Variations in this didn't seem to matter, either.
I also made doubly sure that I wasn't buffering in a crouch afterward.
The most consistent way I found of doing it was letting Ganon drop for several frames before initiating the ledge-hop, and then imputing things as quickly and fluidly as possible.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
"It" being the soft landing uair, right? Yeah... it's because it's determined by how long you're falling for. If you drop more before performing the uair, you won't have to fall as far after the jump. Apparently, a few frames is enough to make the difference, even though I thought you had to fall a lot longer to get a hard landing than that. It could also be because the "soft landing" is due to a true autocancel, whereas you're getting the "hard landings" when you fully finish the move and have gone into your falling animation, which would make sense if the game puts you into fall 2 (hard landing fall animation) after you've performed a DJ instead of fall 1 (soft landing fall animation).
edit: 2550 posts =)
CO18
Smash Hero
I main ganon. Fits me perfectly for brawl+
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I have good news guys!
We are very very close to cracking the puzzle at Ganon's side-b. Hopefully the next nightly will include untechable side-b
We are very very close to cracking the puzzle at Ganon's side-b. Hopefully the next nightly will include untechable side-b
Sounds awesome
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
omg....GANON!!!! <3
All we need now is OOT Ganon texture and I'll be happy
All we need now is OOT Ganon texture and I'll be happy
Veril
Frame Savant
untechable side-b would be amazing...
I posted the KO% w/o DI for the stomp. The % with DI are literally only a few points higher so I stopped testing after going through Jiggs (easiest ko) and Snake (hardest) and seeing how little difference there was.
Anyway, jump-canceled down-b is pretty cool. It has pretty low lag and can combo. I'm looking into it.
I posted the KO% w/o DI for the stomp. The % with DI are literally only a few points higher so I stopped testing after going through Jiggs (easiest ko) and Snake (hardest) and seeing how little difference there was.
Anyway, jump-canceled down-b is pretty cool. It has pretty low lag and can combo. I'm looking into it.
Doesn't the stomp kill off the top? And as such, wouldn't a fastfaller like Captain Falcon die off the top later than Snake?
Or am I misunderstanding how the gravity in Brawl+ works?
Or am I misunderstanding how the gravity in Brawl+ works?
Veril
Frame Savant
You aren't misunderstanding. It makes sense that CF would die later, but he's actually one % behind Snake. Again, DI makes a pretty small difference in the KO%, so I haven't really been motivated to test everyone. Its
KO% w/o DI: from earliest to latest KOed
Jiggs: 70 (72 w/DI)
Squirtle: 74 (77 w/DI)
GW: 75
Kirby: 77
MK: 78
Pika, Zelda: 79
ZSS: 80
Olimar: 84
ICs and Sheik: 85
Luigi and Toon Link: 87
Fox: 88
Lucas: 89
Diddy, Marth, Pit: 90 THE AVERAGE KO%
Falco, Ness, Wolf, Ivysaur: 91
Mario: 92
Sonic and Lucario: 93
Wario and Samus: 94
Rob: 95
Zard and Yoshi: 96
Ganon: 97
Ike, Link, Bowser: 98
DK: 103
DDD: 104
CF: 108
Snake: 109 (114 w/DI)
Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
Is there really any reason for an untechable choke...?
Revven
FrankerZ
Yes... it allows guaranteed follow-ups which were destroyed when it was accidentally made techable. The move now really requires you to techchase, which is actually hard for Ganon because of his slow speed!
(Though he has some good momentum).Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
That does make sense. I just thought it'd be a little unbalanced as all of Ganon's ideal follow-ups are pretty hard-hitting but I'm sure if it's put in, it won't be too noticeable!
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Trust me, it'll be noticeable. It better be fricking noticeable. SideB's followups were a HUGE part of his game before we got the teching code. Getting grabbed by ganon's sideB at a low percent meant that you were going to take a lot of damage, and getting grabbed by sideB at a high percent meant that you were going to die. We want to bring that back, as currently ganon is one of the characters in need of help, and restoring a core part of his game would be the best way to do so.That does make sense. I just thought it'd be a little unbalanced as all of Ganon's ideal follow-ups are pretty hard-hitting but I'm sure if it's put in, it won't be too noticeable!
Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
Ganon does have a lot of trouble against the rest of the cast and does need some buffing. However, it sounds like it's essentially a guaranteed KOing follow up which sounds a bit off to me. A character should never be able to control the situation like that to such an extent. Even with a good pressure move like Choke, the other player should be able to do something about it.
Sorry to bring to make this comparison but it's almost analogous to a D3 infinitegrabbing a DK in Vbrawl to kill%s and bthrow. lol
*killed by B+ gods*
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Because avoiding and punishing the choke is obviously one of the hardest things to do in the game! Oh wait...
The choke isn't an easy move to land against a good player, so landing it should be rewarding. It isn't an automatic 0-death move, but it will let him build a lot of damage, and if he gets you with it over 90 or so, you're getting sparta'd. Still doesn't make it broken, though. A character is allowed to have good combo and kill setups, especially if they're hard to land, not to mention on a character that's already subpar.
CO18
Smash Hero
Truuuuuuuuuuuu
RPGsFTW
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 754
You know, like it was said before, I thought it was a guaranteed attack set-up. That is until my friend did it to me and I teched it by accident. That was kinda disheartening as I thought it wasn't.
Hopefully though, like you said, Ganon's Side-B will be made untechable in 4.2 or whenever. He definitely deserves it. Seriously too!
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
Quick question will there be any chance of him getting the second jump after down b trick returned to him as a buff? I don't main G so I normally don't keep up with his changes.
YOUR TOO SLOW!!!!!!!!! STEAK
(he already has it)
Edit: Sorry, I've always wanted to say that to a Sonic main
camelot
Smash Ace
Because apparently it "has no utility in the air and it doesn't help him to have it". If it doesn't help him, why would it matter if he had it? (I mean, it adds another option, at least...)
But, eh... that's discussion for the Captain Falcon board. Not here.
RPGsFTW
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 754
I can sorta say the same for Ganon. Rarely ever do I see a Ganon recovering with: aerial down-b, 2nd jump, up-b. Their down-bs send them too far to help sometimes =P
D
Deleted member
Guest
ganon downB is a VERY good option for horizontal edgeguarding, you can be almost level with the stage and still be able to make it with downB, jump, upB
RPGsFTW
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 754
^ I don't agree. A down-b both ways, grounded or aerial, to off-stage puts Ganon in a bad position. He could easily get edgeguarded himself. I know this from experience, both as the Ganon, in Brawl AND Melee, and as the enemy attacking Ganon.
I think it's much safer to do a reverse u-air to gimp them. That and d-airs work, though I wouldn't call them as safe.
I think it's much safer to do a reverse u-air to gimp them. That and d-airs work, though I wouldn't call them as safe.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Yea a D-air hit is a kill.
A u-air hit is a safer way to get em.
Down B is just putting yourself in danger.
A u-air hit is a safer way to get em.
Down B is just putting yourself in danger.
cobaltblue
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 455
Ah ok. I wasn't sure if he had it or not.
Ganondorf's an amazing character to use. He deals an excellent amount of damage, has a very good hitbox, and can easily destroy anyone on the battlefield. Sure, he may be a big target, which makes him susceptible to combos, but that's what shielding, and dodging are for. I think the most satisfying thing to do, as a Ganondorf player, is to make a Sudden Death happen in a stock match by using Flame-Choke to make you, and your opponent, lose that lost stock.
Kage is **** with Ganon.
He almost beat Holy at It's a Trap!
LOL. He was also playing Captain Ganondorf, so that could have meant something.
He almost beat Holy at It's a Trap!
LOL. He was also playing Captain Ganondorf, so that could have meant something.
Might be funny yes, but I believe that in case of a sudden death there are other rules for determing the winner than playing that sudden death, am I right? You never actually play the sudden death if I remember correctly.
Yeah, one combo with Ganon = 1 stock ^_^ He kills CPUs I realized, they never tech the choke so you have a guaranteed f-smash XD I did a 0-death on a CPU MK, that was one silly combo:
choke -> usmash -> uair -> fair
I beg to differ sir!
You also said that you haven't seen anyone down-b to get their second jump back. I do it all the time, makes it scarier to follow me in the air to since you might get spiked and harder since down b sends you down so low many characters can't follow. I guess it's kind of like toon link is hard to gimp since he can get so low and still get back up.