Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

[ZeonStar]

Is it actually useful now, or is it still useless like it was in vbrawl?

Im pretty sure its pretty useful now, I havent got that much use out of it because i havent tested it that much, but depending on which direction they DI after murder quake, you can get a free bair or possible fair or upair depending.

 

[Rkey]

Im pretty sure its pretty useful now, I havent got that much use out of it because i havent tested it that much, but depending on which direction they DI after murder quake, you can get a free bair or possible fair or upair depending.

It's usefull, it combos to a jab. And:

GO LEAFGREEN!

That idea is nice, go for it. Also, with this Ganon will murder n00bs even moar!! (missed tech = smash in the face)

 

[Finns7]

Ok sorry Ive been gone soOoooooooooooooo long but falco400 is right, and its what Ive been saying it should get a damage buff and stay techable cus a legit ganon will **** you hardcore if your predictable if you roll behind a legit ganon your gonna get a fsmash to the face all the time gg's, thats just rollin though idk if its the same as when you techroll behind.

Thing is when it wasnt techable so long ago Life was great cus it was the old formula, then when it was I got pissed and others did but we slowly adjusted and it was **** plus the fact that the opponent could not john was the best part because it wasnt automated, they HAD options to not be mindraped. When they changed it back to being not techable and then rechanged it back again it felt foreign, all this changing needs to stop and a decision needs to be made, I side with falco, we just have to adjust...again O_o

I wish ganon had a way to defend against projectiles like he did in all his games. I think it would be hella legit if we got a reflecting projectile code and had ganons arieal punches reflect projectiles if sweetspoted.

OH and Zeonstar is right about the upthrow it was pointless. It was better the old way, ganons upthrow has too much lag.

 

[ZeonStar]

Ok sorry Ive been gone soOoooooooooooooo long but falco400 is right, and its what Ive been saying it should get a damage buff and stay techable cus a legit ganon will **** you hardcore if your predictable if you roll behind a legit ganon your gonna get a fsmash to the face all the time gg's, thats just rollin though idk if its the same as when you techroll behind.

Thing is when it wasnt techable so long ago Life was great cus it was the old formula, then when it was I got pissed and others did but we slowly adjusted and it was **** plus the fact that the opponent could not john was the best part because it wasnt automated, they HAD options to not be mindraped. When they changed it back to being not techable and then rechanged it back again it felt foreign, all this changing needs to stop and a decision needs to be made, I side with falco, we just have to adjust...again O_o

I wish ganon had a way to defend against projectiles like he did in all his games. I think it would be hella legit if we got a reflecting projectile code and had ganons arieal punches reflect projectiles if sweetspoted.

OH and Zeonstar is right about the upthrow it was pointless. It was better the old way, ganons upthrow has too much lag.

Well, I wouldnt agree with the upthrow being better as it was before..at least at really low percents you can upair them now, compared to before where you couldnt do anything, and just wait for them to fall back down.

As for projectiles...eh...I really dont think he needs an anti projectile game, thats one of the things that balances him out, lrn2powershield.

What he really needs if we were ever to seriously give him something in any way is to somehow keep him from getting gimped so easily, thats really his biggest downfall right now. Ive seriously been in situations where someone backthrows me at early percents and just hugs the edge.

Because of his easy to gimp recovery, im still not sure how legit Ganon would be in extreme high level play, id be afraid of just being tapped by metaknight on the edge and being faired a couple of times and being laughed at because Ganon never was viable.

 

[Finns7]

Idk dude, to me what balances him out is how slow he is, his wieght (combos) and recovery, its not like its going away from his character..........................

Thats kinda lulz though on the uthrow thing with the old one you could upair and if they ad''ed you could mindgame into choke, Ganons upair has alot of priority so most chose to AD it unable to fathom the mistake they just made.... I dont think it would be too much trouble to speed up the animation. Make more sense than speeding up falcos utilt way back when..............cmon.

 

[leafgreen386]

For some reason most members of the WBR feel that the only thing throws need is kb changes, when this really isn't the case. So far, no character has received a throw speed mod in any set, with the exception of when we were trying to fix certain CGs before we had access to the throw mod, which ended up failing miserably. And then long ago, before the WBR was formed, there was a movement to universally speed up throws by 1.1x, which ended up failing because of the resultant glitchiness. Let's face it, we've had some bad experiences with modding throw speed.

Of course, there's another bigger reason we don't use frame speed as much as we use kb mods. One of the biggest reasons the WBR has tended to stray away from modding frame speed is that frame speed lines right now are scarce to come by. We can't just put in as many as we choose, and are in fact limited by the code, so this is probably actually the primary reason we tend to stray from giving out frame speed adjustments to fix throws like this.

That said, there are truly some throws that just have too much lag to be useful, no matter how "good" of a trajectory they send at. And now that dthrow consistently combos into things, there's almost no good reason to use uthrow at all. This is definitely a case where it would've been better to cut off some winddown, and once we get the new frame speed engine, expect it to be a lot more likely to be implemented.

 

[Finns7]

rgr, I remember thoes days XD back in the begining (remember 256 lines of code -_-), its not worth it really.

 

[GameSystem]

Can't you add hitstun to negate the throw lag? It might break it in teams but in single's it'll work.

 

[ZeonStar]

Sounds good..yeah, I guess dthrow should be the main ****.

 

[leafgreen386]

Can't you add hitstun to negate the throw lag? It might break it in teams but in single's it'll work.

The short answer: No.

The long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

But seriously, we can't edit hitstun of moves directly. Hitstun is derived from knockback, and there is no value in the game that denotes a move specific hitstun multiplier. The only way to change hitstun is to change the knockback.

 

[Rkey]

So, with the decision of murderchoke to be techable, is Ganon starting to get "done"? I want to start praticing for real, and with the thought "this is not going to be techable later", you can't really do that. Are there any further mayor issues on Ganon as a character?

I'm asking because I can't think of any.

Edit: Well, that's because I'm still pwning my little brother with him, and we're not really proffesionals I mean, when we're talking recovery, Ivy's recovery SUCKS, and she's good.

 

[ZeonStar]

Well, it seems pretty evident that Ganon is viable now, but not top or even one of the better characters by any stretch of the meaning, but if there are any changes, they will probably be subtle, or small tweaks to his game, and not something as huge as a sideb tech change.

 

[Rkey]

Well, it seems pretty evident that Ganon is viable now, but not top or even one of the better characters by any stretch of the meaning, but if there are any changes, they will probably be subtle, or small tweaks to his game, and not something as huge as a sideb tech change.

Great, then I'll start working on Ganon's flight again ^_^

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ganondorf's Chainchoke abilities is better in Brawl+ ?

Cause when I use Aerial Flame-Choke, it's hard to make a sequence of more chokes, since my opponent get up much more faster.

 

[Rkey]

Ganondorf's Chainchoke abilities is better in Brawl+ ?

Cause when I use Aerial Flame-Choke, it's hard to make a sequence of more chokes, since my opponent get up much more faster.

But your own lag is reduced by... 200%? Am I correct?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Something else worth mentioning.

Ganon's aerial murder choke gets a very strange but awesome boost from momentum. He'll fly you forward in true warlock style and brutally slam you into the pavement, so to speak.

What this changes most though is his ability to Ganoncide! On an equal level offstage, with an opponent onstage, ganon will Not take his opponent down unless he's far enough away, farther than in vBrawl.
But this isn't all bad news. That itself is a bit trivial compared to what he attains, which isn't Huge but immensely awesome.

Ganondorf can ganoncide an opponent when they're on the edge. What's so different about that, you say?

Well, he can be onstage too now. He's got a decent birth of room to do this if the opponent doesn't realize what could go down, and short characters are more difficult to target with this, but it's absolutely possible.

Hell, try it on the highest part of Luigi's mansion, or on one of the floating platforms there if you've got deadlands. If they're on the edge, he'll take them to the abyss along side himself.

It's absolutely one of the most gratifying things you'll ever do.

I swear to god I love this. I still need to try it on norfair and brinstar though. Does it still work that Ganon spikes the opponent through the lava and doesn't die there with the ganoncide? If so, people need to watch the hell out on norfair... because that is sick.

Also, I'm having trouble following up murder choke into jab or dtilt... dunno what I'm doing wrong.

I totally love the new ganon though. He's awesome and one of my B+ mains.

 

[:034:]

Cancelling utilt in 5.0 is the best thing that has happened to me. Really. It's awesome. Especially now that I have my friends addicted to B+, so I actually have people to play with.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You can cancel it?

I just thought of something cool... Make it faster and you can combo dair into utilt. 0.o

This is getting on my nerves... How can I get around a lucario who does nothing but spam aura sphere and roll?

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I guess you could jab the smaller Aura Spheres and take advantage of WizKick's rather persistent hitbox when you bait them into rolling...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That's what I've been trying... >.> It's annoying how much trouble he can cause me with one attack and a roll. I'm having similar troubles with most chars I play as except Zelda (reflector).

 

[Rkey]

I can't wait for 5.0 to go PAL, canceling the u-tilt is gonna be awesome. Ganon will be so mindgames ^_^ Can you cancel it with ANYTHING? Like a jump or a shield?

Oh, and perhaps lucario is just a bad matchup for ganon? Idk, haven't played any.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't wait for 5.0 to go PAL, canceling the u-tilt is gonna be awesome. Ganon will be so mindgames ^_^ Can you cancel it with ANYTHING? Like a jump or a shield?

Oh, and perhaps lucario is just a bad matchup for ganon? Idk, haven't played any.

He does this to me when I use Luigi and fox too. >.> Which is pathetic because fox has his shine.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

How the **** Ganondorf is able to cancel his Utilt ?

Cool.

 

[:034:]

I can't wait for 5.0 to go PAL, canceling the u-tilt is gonna be awesome. Ganon will be so mindgames ^_^ Can you cancel it with ANYTHING? Like a jump or a shield?

Oh, and perhaps lucario is just a bad matchup for ganon? Idk, haven't played any.

Yeah, you can, it has IASA frames at like frame 30, meaning you can just cancel it into anything.

 

[Andarel]

How the **** Ganondorf is able to cancel his Utilt ?

Cool.

Codes were ported into PSA, which lets you tweak IASA frames. 'tis amazing.

 

[Shell]

Recent changes:

-SideB is now techable, damage now at 13, endlag sped up 250%
	-Jab sped up 350% until frame 8, then normal speed, 1200% speed-up on frame 10 until 22, then 50% speed until 35, then normal speed.
	-IASA frame for Bair changed to 29 from 36 to enable SH-Bair-DJ within 4 frame window
	-IASA frame for Uair changed to 28 from 34 to enable SH-Uair-DJ within 5 frame window
	-Grab Collision Box 1 size increased to 8.8 from 4.8 to match the animation
	-IASA frame for U-tilt changed to 31 from 114
	-AC frame on Dair changed to 31 from 32
	-Air mobility raised to .04 from .03
	-Downthrow KBG to 40 from 50
	-Upthrow KBG to 55 from 105	

	New Physics:
	-SH 1.050 (was 1.025)
	-FH 1.100 (was 1.050)
	-FF 1.075 (was 1.100)
	-DG 1.025 (was 1.000)
	-FG 1.050 (was 1.000)

I'd appreciate as in-depth of feedback on all of these changes as possible. We're aware that U-throw needs less cooldown to be useful, we just haven't gotten to it yet.

Holy mentioned that his D-throw was "broken" and (almost?) always leads to a chain-grab. It would be super helpful if someone were to get a rough list of what's possible on a couple floaties, normal fallers, and fast-fallers in a given percent range with full DI, if anyone wants to help.

A lot of people are loving the U-tilt, but most agree it needs some polish. I wanted it to be a seldom used move that, when used creatively, opened a lot of rewarding possibilities. However, right now it's easy to spam it often and land it rarely. Of course not spamming would help you land it more () but I think it can be better.

GoG suggested moving the IASA frame back to 40/45 from 30 or only allowing certain moves from out of it. What are your thoughts? If it should be limited to certain moves, what would they be? Or are there other ways you'd polish the move?

 

[GHNeko]

I'm more surprised that this utilt isn't falling flat on its face really. <_>

The concept seems mad farfetched to me than anything else. :V

It'd seem better as an attack you could charge but what do I know. He's nothing more than a sandbag character to me. >:

 

[Finns7]

I think charging it would be better also.

 

[Hyrus]

Firstly, why does Utilt need changed? Ganon is massively improved in Brawl+, removing just about every weakness he ever had. Jab, DownB, Stomp combos, every aerial is useful, skyride is crazy fun, etc. Diminishing returns on KO power hampered Ganon more than most, and that's gone too.

What does changing Utilt add to his game? Granted, there are several moves of his that are complete s*** (Dsmash, Utilt, NeutralB), but a move shouldn't be buffed just because it's crappy, unless it can add a missing element to a character. Between his already strong ledgeguarding game, thunderstomping, buffed air game and ridiculous KO power, I don't see the point in making a riskless ledgeguard into a baitable Fair/Dtilt/Jab with a nasty suprise if the enemy doesn't move.

I've mentioned before that it feels glitchy. No move in the game can be interrupted before dealing damage, with the exception of charged up B moves that can only be interrupted by firing prematurely or going into a defensive maneuver. If it had to stay, i'd recommend only canceling Utilt into a shield/roll, making it far less flexible to spam. Heck, at least being able to cancel it into a shield means an accidental Utilt isn't a free smash to the face.

I'm more surprised that this utilt isn't falling flat on its face really. <_> The concept seems mad farfetched to me than anything else. :V

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Man.. I finally acquired my Nightly Builds 5.0.

Will Utilt be much more useful ?

Finns7/ZeonStar I'm testing new combos with Ganon. I think [Dair ->Dair -> Usmash -> Uair] constantly can become a little bit boring.

I'm thankful now, cause Flame-Choke is now techable.

Brawl+(5.0) Ganondorf = BRUTAL/Too Good ?

 

[Bakuryu]

I know they tried to keep Falcon and Ganon apart, but at this point who cards if hes similar in one way another, why not there utilts? As for keeping it unique to the character, if you want to make it useful why not make it so you can end the move sooner, but with less power? Other then that I like the cancel in to roll or shield, it could make for some good mind games maybe or at least save your *** when you accidentally utilt.

 

[GHNeko]

Because Utilt is known to be a retardedly powerful move with alot of lag? Just like how the knee is know to be...well..the knee?

Utilt is known to be an amazingky slow, and amazingly powerful move that is extremely situational.

Giviing IASA frames in the double digits near the start of the move pretty much removes practically alot of the commitment with no nerf to the reward.

It's a situational move that is used extremely intellegently and rewards the player with a move that is probably has one of the highest potentials to KO.

That and it looks MAD WEIRD.

And being able to cancel it into shield also removes a nice chunk of risk, and if you "accidentally" utilt with ganon...

Well...sorry, but oh well. Get fsmashed. V:

 

[Hyrus]

And being able to cancel it into shield also removes a nice chunk of risk, and if you "accidentally" utilt with ganon...

Well...sorry, but oh well. Get fsmashed. V:

When you input a jump (with any character), there is a very small frame window where the jump will be canceled if you input an up tilt/smash. That's how you're able to perform those moves with tap jump on. Unfortunately, if you're trying to input an Uair from the ground as fast as possible, you can Utilt by mistake. Not very often, but it happens.

Prior to the 8-13 nightly, Utilt didn't exactly have a high risk factor since, to even land it, an enemy had to be recovering. You say that shielding would remove a lot of the risk, yet as of now Ganon can Uair, Dtilt, Jab, DownB, and even walk/dash out of an Utilt. Shielding or rolling out of Utilt is not the most favorable position to transition to, feeling more like a bandaid to an otherwise uninspired attack.

 

[GHNeko]

When you input a jump (with any character), there is a very small frame window where the jump will be canceled if you input an up tilt/smash. That's how you're able to perform those moves with tap jump on. Unfortunately, if you're trying to input an Uair from the ground as fast as possible, you can Utilt by mistake. Not very often, but it happens.

Prior to the 8-13 nightly, Utilt didn't exactly have a high risk factor since, to even land it, an enemy had to be recovering. You say that shielding would remove a lot of the risk, yet as of now Ganon can Uair, Dtilt, Jab, DownB, and even walk/dash out of an Utilt. Shielding or rolling out of Utilt is not the most favorable position to transition to, feeling more like a bandaid to an otherwise uninspired attack.

JC Usmash. I know, which is why you use the c-stick because you can't get a Utilt out of a C-stick without trying ie Jumping than C-Stick up really never gets you a utilt. ANd usmash or an uair, but never an utilt.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

GHNeko, Do you main Ganondorf too ?
I think Ganondorf is literally able to break shields now. Since Utilt inflict a HUGE damage and you can instantly cancel it to perform another attack.

Just Imagine:
Utilt (Your Opponent Shield it) -> "Follow Up" (You Break the Shield of your Opponent) -> Warlock Punch

Hey guys Let's Find Something Useful for Utilt !

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, as far as the utilt goes, I need to test it to be sure, but the first IASA frame is still 34. That means it's not quite fast.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Some random stuff with Utilt:

- Utilt -> Jab [Does 34%/36%]
It seems to work at ALL percents.

It's pretty useful, since Jab ADD more damage.

*The Jab DOESN'T cancel the High KnockBack of the Utilt.



I'm testing it in all percents and with all characters right now.

 

[Shell]

Are you sure Jab doesn't cancel the KB? That's how Falco can CG heavies, D-throw, Jab, re-grab, D-throw etc. -- the jab stops the KB of the D-throw and allows for a re-grab.

Regardless, I'll try to find a way to make it un-interruptible just before / during / after the actual U-tilt attack.

@Hyrus: Shield and roll are some of the safest actions Ganon has next to spot-dodge and jab. I don't think allowing those two in particular would do much to combat the move's unfortunately spammy nature. Rather, B-moves are all a bit higher risk and might work well (Cape's suggestion). However, if someone's developed any legit tactics using it I don't want to ruin those prematurely, which leads me to...

What all have you guys landed from U-tilt in a real match so far? Is it actually useful once an opponent "gets wise"?

Lastly, I haven't heard any feedback on the gravity / aerial mobility tweaks -- like 'em, no like 'em, just okay? I though they slightly accelerated his SHFFL game nicely, but I want more feedback.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

SHeLL test by yourself dude.

It's kinda Hard to perform, unless you get the right Timing.

In my tests I killed many CPUs with Utilt -> Jab (CPU with 70%) and the Jab didn't cancel the KB. My opponent got launched with a High KB and with a ELECTRIC EFFECT of the Jab.

I edited my post many times dude. I put in the first time "The Jab cancel the High KnockBack of the Utilt.".

You should test by yourself and Post here your RESULTS dude.

We need find something useful.

 

[Shell]

I apologize if I came across as too assertive -- you are correct. I just did a quick test and you can tag on the damage of the jab to the U-tilt's KB.