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Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

D

distructo91

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
62
Location
Toronto, ON
SmashBrosForce said:
You're pretty right dude. I noticed that too.

Let's talk about Falcon's Nair which is the same Nair of Ganondorf.
Cap. Falcon's Nair is very useful cause his Nair doesn't have lag and it's a fast attack. I saw one match between 5ive (Cap. Falcon) vs Distructo (Marth) which showed the potential of Falcon's Nair.

The Falcon mainers uses Nair a lot without fear, cause that attack inflicts 10% (Not bad, I guess) and it doesn't get stale. Falcon's Nair is a dangerous attack.
Click to expand...
I was the falcon, 5ive was the Marth. Not that it matters though...
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
leafgreen386 said:
...

The current nair... is his vbrawl nair. We didn't change anything about it. It just has less landlag due to the universal ALR.

And I see no reason to make his nair like falcon's. It already has uses. It doesn't need to be a falcon wannabe.
Click to expand...
I think Ganon's vBrawl Nair is useful for juggle breaker and gimp. If you could reduce the knockback of the first hit, his Nair would have more Combo potential. It's just my opinion to improve his Nair. The Brawl+ creators knows what the best thing to do.


EDIT: LOLOLOLOL !!!! 5ive (Marth) vs Distructo (Cap. Falcon).
Distructo, I just liked the way you used the Falcon's Nair.
 
5ive

5ive

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,008
Location
USA USA USA
Distructo's Falcon is nothing compared to Eugene's. <___< Go watch more Eugene guise.
 
ZeonStar

ZeonStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Messages
601
Location
Rome, GA
Not sure if you know or not Force, but I think they are going to take out the Uptilt Cancel, ive been in talks with the backroom, and they dont like it :/
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
ZeonStar said:
Not sure if you know or not Force, but I think they are going to take out the Uptilt Cancel, ive been in talks with the backroom, and they dont like it :/
Click to expand...
Oh man...:(

I didn't know that, cause I was very inactive in these days.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS...

Man... I was pretty Thrilled about Utilt Cancelling, cause it was being pretty useful for us.

Please, keep trying to talk with the WBR.

Zeon, if they take out the Utilt Cancel, we will lost the chance to improve the Ganon's Metagame.

The thread creator almost never appear here. I don't know the reasons, but I would like if goodoldganon could post something about that here.

We will really lost a good improvement which was given to Ganondorf. You know that my friend.
 
A

Andarel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
159
Location
New York City
Nice as the utilt cancel is, it plays awkwardly. No other move in the game cancels in the same way, and it just...doesn't feel right to utilt -> shield or utilt -> grab during its startup. While it is a nice way to take advantage of the nice-sized suction box on its startup, it just doesn't feel right - I think the WBR made it known a long time ago this was just an interim change and they were trying to fine-tune it into something useful but not odd.
 
goodoldganon

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
SmashBrosForce said:
The thread creator almost never appear here. I don't know the reasons, but I would like if goodoldganon could post something about that here.
Click to expand...
U-tilt canceling is being removed. Sorry.

Is this what you wanted?

Code: 
Ganondorf
	D-Throw:
*Test*		-Angle to 105 from 65, KBG 60 from previous 40. New:[7 Dmg; 70 BKB; 50->60 KBG; 65°->105°] Old:[7 Dmg; 70 BKB; 50->40 KBG; 65°]
	Jab:
		-Frame speeds repolished. IASA on 23, animation redone to be more organic
		-Angle changed to 40 from special 40
		-All flags set to 39030203 from 39030283 and 39030280. All hitboxes electric element and uses a different sound effect
		-9 damage hitbox reduced to 7. KBG compensated 105->135
		-Outer hitbox shifted inward one unit to 17 from 18
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.30x (9 dmg hitbox); 1.00x->1.20x (7 dmg hitbox)
	U-Tilt:
		-IASA removed
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.50x (Sweetspot)
	F-Smash:
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.20x
	F-Air:
		-Extension of frame 16 shifted to frame 15. New:[0.250x Frame 15; 1.00x Frame 16];Old:[0.250x Frame 16; 1.00x Frame 17]
	Neutral-B (All):
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.50x
	Side-B:
		-Initial Grab Box size: 5.00x->12.00x
	Up-B (Grab):
		-Holding Hits: Damage increased to 2 from 1
		-Final Hit: Damage increased to 9 from 7; KBG lowered to 63 from 82; BKB increased to 75 from 40 [7->9 Dmg; 82->63 KBG; 40->75 BKB; (40)°]
	Down-B:
		-Speedup on grounded endlag of grounded-version removed
		-Aerial endlag of grounded version now 150% faster from 185%
		-Aerial endlag of aeiral version now 150% faster from 185%
		-Grounded endlag (Quake) of aerial verions now 150% faster from 185%
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
goodoldganon said:
U-tilt canceling is being removed. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Finally ! You posted here dude. I tried to talk with you, but it didn't work. lol

Well... is very sad to see Ganondorf losing a great improvement, but I can understand the WBR.

I hope that the WBR can make something useful for the Ganon's Utilt.

goodoldganon, Can you post here more frequently here ? I need your help to improve your own thread. I want to help you, if you want.
 
goodoldganon

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Lots of school and frankly I've been playing a lot of new console games. The little time I get with Brawl+ and Smash Boards is spent in the WBR keeping caught up. I'm sure I'll be around more that I'm settled in.
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
goodoldganon said:
Lots of school and frankly I've been playing a lot of new console games. The little time I get with Brawl+ and Smash Boards is spent in the WBR keeping caught up. I'm sure I'll be around more that I'm settled in.
Click to expand...
It's ok man, I understand your reasons now.
That's Good dude. You really should post here more frequently.;)

I have some suggestions to improve this thread.
You should make a section for:
- Combos
- Videos about Good Ganon Matches
- Combo Videos (ZeonStar's Combo Video deserves something good, cause he made an AWESOME Brawl+ Ganondorf Combo Video)

When you will fill the Match-Up section ?

I dunno... It's just suggestions. I would like if you make a section about Combos, cause we could discuss everything about the truly Ganondorf Combos.

Thanks for your attention dude.
 
GHNeko

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
SmashBrosForce said:
I have some suggestions to improve this thread.
You should make a section for:
- Combos
- Videos about Good Ganon Matches
- Combo Videos (ZeonStar's Combo Video deserves something good, cause he made an AWESOME Brawl+ Ganondorf Combo Video)

When you will fill the Match-Up section ?

I dunno... It's just suggestions. I would like if you make a section about Combos, cause we could discuss everything about the truly Ganondorf Combos.

Thanks for your attention dude.
Click to expand...
...*cough*

AHEM.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=384
 
Shell

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
I'm sorry the U-tilt was left in the build for so long. I know many of you really enjoyed it, but it didn't quite meet our standards of quality and polish.

Additionally, I had some ideas for U-tilt and Warlock Punch that may or may not make it to testing. They are....

UTILT
-IASA is already removed
-Add very light hitbox to initial raising-swing of foot (frame 20-25ish) that knocks opponent into wind
-Raise Explosion KBG
-SA on down swing, possibly?

I tried to increase the power of the wind, but it just blew the opponent past Ganon. If someone wants to experiment with this further in PSA, be my guest, it's pretty easy to change.

Here was my proposal for Warlock Punch, built on Cape's idea:

Windup [0-34] -- currently 0-60
Hitbox [35-55] -- currently 3 frames
Cooldown [56-79] -- same

Hitbox size 1.5x

Punch takes out 3/4 fresh shield
Ganon takes 6% DMG to self on frame 35

Does 12% damage with low KB

He can SH towards someone while winding it up, and the opponent can't spotdodge it or shield it very effectively, but if they can get out of the way Ganon will eat damage. It puts pressure on the opponent, but can easily backfire if spammed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to do self damage yet, so that idea is kinda on hold. Discuss.
 
BG3

BG3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
294
SHeLL said:
I'm sorry the U-tilt was left in the build for so long. I know many of you really enjoyed it, but it didn't quite meet our standards of quality and polish.

Additionally, I had some ideas for U-tilt and Warlock Punch that may or may not make it to testing. They are....

UTILT
-IASA is already removed
-Add very light hitbox to initial raising-swing of foot (frame 20-25ish) that knocks opponent into wind
-Raise Explosion KBG
-SA on down swing, possibly?

I tried to increase the power of the wind, but it just blew the opponent past Ganon. If someone wants to experiment with this further in PSA, be my guest, it's pretty easy to change.

Here was my proposal for Warlock Punch, built on someone (who?) else's:

Windup [0-34] -- currently 0-60
Hitbox [35-55] -- currently 3 frames
Cooldown [56-79] -- same

Hitbox size 1.5x

Punch takes out 3/4 fresh shield
Ganon takes 6% DMG to self on frame 35

Does 12% damage with low KB

He can SH towards someone while winding it up, and the opponent can't spotdodge it or shield it very effectively, but if they can get out of the way Ganon will eat damage. It puts pressure on the opponent, but can easily backfire if spammed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to do self damage yet, so that idea is kinda on hold. Discuss.
Click to expand...
That Warlock Punch idea is great. Don't know what to do with U-tilt though. It did look unpolished, but I'm not sure what else to do with it. How about give the whole move SA?
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
GHNeko said:
...*cough*

AHEM.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/forum.aspx?fid=384
Click to expand...
Thanks Neko ! :laugh:


SHeLL said:
UTILT
-IASA is already removed
-Add very light hitbox to initial raising-swing of foot (frame 20-25ish) that knocks opponent into wind
-Raise Explosion KBG
-SA on down swing, possibly?

I tried to increase the power of the wind, but it just blew the opponent past Ganon. If someone wants to experiment with this further in PSA, be my guest, it's pretty easy to change.

Here was my proposal for Warlock Punch, built on someone (who?) else's:

Windup [0-34] -- currently 0-60
Hitbox [35-55] -- currently 3 frames
Cooldown [56-79] -- same

Hitbox size 1.5x

Punch takes out 3/4 fresh shield
Ganon takes 6% DMG to self on frame 35

Does 12% damage with low KB
Click to expand...
I'm counting on the WBR to make something good for Utilt as I told. Well, these ideas for Utilt seems to be interesting and I liked the "Raise Explosion KBG" change. Utilt's Wind could have something good too IMO.

About Warlock Punch, I thought these ideas very interesting. I think you are trying to make the WP useful and viable, since WP was an awful and laggy move in vBrawl.
That's good SHeLL.

How Ganondorf will take the damage ? I got a little bit confused... lulz
 
ZeonStar

ZeonStar

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Messages
601
Location
Rome, GA
Lets just make uptilt really fast and low damage and knockback, but the same range, thatd fix it. But not sure what you guys would think, or exactly how that would work

Ganondorf taking damage during warlock punch....really? Pichudorf confirmed.
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
ZeonStar said:
Lets just make uptilt really fast and low damage and knockback, but the same range, thatd fix it. But not sure what you guys would think, or exactly how that would work

Ganondorf taking damage during warlock punch....really? Pichudorf confirmed.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with ZeonStar. Would be nice if Utilt could be more fast and inflicting less damage (Maybe 20% - 23%).

Yeah... Ganondorf taking damage during Warlock Punch is very weird IMO.

SHeLL, I think Ganondorf shouldn't take damage during WP, unless you do something very good to WP to Ganondorf take that damage.
 
Shell

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
@SmashBrosForce: An attack that can't be sidestepped or shielded isn't good...?

Imagine this: You pressure the opponent's shield until they're at 50% shield-power, then land a WP on their shield --> Shield Break --> U-tilt --> Good game.

Obviously the move needs trade-offs, and I thought him taking damage would be an interesting one. Brainstorm with me here.

Also, giving the entirety of U-tilt SA would be silly.
 
BG3

BG3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
294
I was just throwing out ideas, LMAO. How about making it a tad slower than Captain Falcon's u-tilt?
 
goodoldganon

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
How about we leave Dorf moves alone? He great as is and though a few fine tweakings went into the latest Dorf (5.0) the slightly larger side-b grab range is certainly helpful. Anything we do to those two moves will be seen as gimmicky and stupid. Characters don't need a moveset will all good moves. Dorf only having 2 or 3 is better than a lot of the rest of the cast.

How about you guys work with what you have and tell me what you can't combat at all instead of trying to fix those two moves.
 
K

kciD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
225
Warlock Punch is a move that isn't supposed to work in a 1v1-no-item-tournament-like-game. It's supposed to be used when either A) it's a multiplayer game with casual players probably play the game with items on and it being much more like a party game, or B) when your opponent's shield button gets stuck during the finals in a $1000 tournament and it's their last stock. It's not supposed to work otherwise.

U-tilt is made the same way...BUT being a tilt move makes it extremely dumb that it takes so long to pull off. This one I can see tweaking a bit...maybe making it a lot more like Falcon's, except slower, and of course a lot less damage than it does now.
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
SHeLL said:
@SmashBrosForce: An attack that can't be sidestepped or shielded isn't good...?

Imagine this: You pressure the opponent's shield until they're at 50% shield-power, then land a WP on their shield --> Shield Break --> U-tilt --> Good game.

Obviously the move needs trade-offs, and I thought him taking damage would be an interesting one. Brainstorm with me here.

Also, giving the entirety of U-tilt SA would be silly.
Click to expand...
SHeLL, I thought your ideas for Warlock Punch very good dude. If you do something REALLY nice and useful for WP, Ganondorf should take damage. Can you understand now ?

I totally agree with your ideas.

As I told in my last post...:
SmashBrosForce said:
SHeLL, I think Ganondorf shouldn't take damage during WP, unless you do something very good to WP to Ganondorf take that damage.
Click to expand...

EDIT: goodoldganon, I see no problem in trying to improve 2 Ganondorf's awful moves (Utilt and Warlock Punch).
Ganondorf was the worst character in vBrawl and he deserves to shine in Brawl+, IMO.
 
Shell

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Yeah, he's definitely shining right now. U-tilt / WP changes would likely need some compensation.

For anyone that hasn't played 5.0 yet, Animation-matching-grab-range + Good D-throw = Game changer.
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
GHNeko said:
I thought he already shines in Brawl+ xd
Click to expand...
LOLOLOLOL NEKO !!!!

He is SHINING in Brawl+ dude... of course !

:laugh:

SHeLL said:
Yeah, he's definitely shining right now. U-tilt / WP changes would likely need some compensation.

For anyone that hasn't played 5.0 yet, Animation-matching-grab-range + Good D-throw = Game changer.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about the Cooldown...

What can you do about Warlock Punch's Cooldown ? or You won't change it ?

Yeah... Utilt / WP changes need definitely some compensation.
 
SmashBrosForce

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
goodoldganon said:
U-tilt canceling is being removed. Sorry.

Is this what you wanted?

Code: 
Ganondorf
	D-Throw:
*Test*		-Angle to 105 from 65, KBG 60 from previous 40. New:[7 Dmg; 70 BKB; 50->60 KBG; 65°->105°] Old:[7 Dmg; 70 BKB; 50->40 KBG; 65°]
	Jab:
		-Frame speeds repolished. IASA on 23, animation redone to be more organic
		-Angle changed to 40 from special 40
		-All flags set to 39030203 from 39030283 and 39030280. All hitboxes electric element and uses a different sound effect
		-9 damage hitbox reduced to 7. KBG compensated 105->135
		-Outer hitbox shifted inward one unit to 17 from 18
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.30x (9 dmg hitbox); 1.00x->1.20x (7 dmg hitbox)
	U-Tilt:
		-IASA removed
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.50x (Sweetspot)
	F-Smash:
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.20x
	F-Air:
		-Extension of frame 16 shifted to frame 15. New:[0.250x Frame 15; 1.00x Frame 16];Old:[0.250x Frame 16; 1.00x Frame 17]
	Neutral-B (All):
		-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.50x
	Side-B:
		-Initial Grab Box size: 5.00x->12.00x
	Up-B (Grab):
		-Holding Hits: Damage increased to 2 from 1
		-Final Hit: Damage increased to 9 from 7; KBG lowered to 63 from 82; BKB increased to 75 from 40 [7->9 Dmg; 82->63 KBG; 40->75 BKB; (40)°]
	Down-B:
		-Speedup on grounded endlag of grounded-version removed
		-Aerial endlag of grounded version now 150% faster from 185%
		-Aerial endlag of aeiral version now 150% faster from 185%
		-Grounded endlag (Quake) of aerial verions now 150% faster from 185%
Click to expand...
Yeah... Thanks for posting these codes.

If you have anything important, post here dude. Is always good when you post something interesting.

Well, I didn't understand the Fsmash change. What happened to Fsmash ?

ZeonStar said:
I forgot about the sideb grab range buff..thats pretty exciting. Cant wait for the next build.
Click to expand...
I think these Side-B changes may compensate the Utilt changes.
 
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