Playing Ganondorf in Brawl+ and How to Continue Murdering People

[SmashBrosForce]

I apologize if I came across as too assertive -- you are correct. I just did a quick test and you can tag on the damage of the jab to the U-tilt's KB.

No problem dude.

Everything need be tested and you were pretty right when you asked if Jab cancel or not Utilt's KnockBack.

This Thread should have a section of "New Finds", "New Combos". Since Brawl+ allows you to perform different things.


*SHeLL do you main Ganon in Brawl+ dude ?

 

[Shell]

The closest thing to a main I have is Mario, followed by Lucas and Ganon, with a side of Falcon and Falco.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

The closest thing to a main I have is Mario, followed by Lucas and Ganon, with a side of Falcon and Falco.

Ohh good.

If you find something useful post here. =]

goodoldganon
If you think that [Utilt -> Jab] is a new find or a new combo, make a section in the Thread's description and put this information. Would be nice.

Link's thread has a section of Combos and it's nice.

 

[THO]

The u-tilt being cancel-able is awesome. For me it has two new options. The first is obviously as a fake out. Other characters have the ability, due to their speed, to do a move knowing that they will be safe, and make their opponent react prematurely (most classically this was seen in dash dancing). Ganon hasn't really had this option before, but now I can up tilt as some one is coming in from above and they think it is an up-smash or a jump and they air dodge to avoid it and I punish.

The second use, and what makes it badass as ****, is the vacuum effect. Its like a reverse water gun. You can do crazy **** (i've only been messing around for a few hours so I obviously haven't come across a fraction of the applications). You can mess with peoples spacing, move them into jab/ grab range. You can pull them up during recoveries. One of the coolest things to do is, if you hit your opponent in a way that they will land just out of forward-b distance (so if they tech away its would previously be impossible to catch them), you can start the up-tilt and pull them so that if they tech away, you may be able to catch them with the wizard kick.

I haven't even considered the application of this in teams.

All in all, this move doesn't really do a lot, its not character breaking, it doesn't move ganon to top ten in the game, it just gives a character with very few options the chance to have some unique and possibly potential mix up game.

People have been posting about how its stupid and being spammed and that the cancel frame should extended so that people can't spam it, but doing that would make it into nothing more than a gimmick move again. Something that you throw out in a free-for-all match with items on and somehow everyone gets hit by it.

Adding this change doesn't just add a neat trick for ganon, there are definite applications, his game does change due to this and it does move him higher on the tier list. It also is really ****ing cool and makes me want to main ganon. Thus for me at least it makes the changes I wanted to see in Brawl+: a game where all characters are viable, and where I can have fun and be a badass at the same time.

Also, landing the up-tilt and grabbing them before they get out of range, then throwing to aerial combo is one of the coolest things i've seen.

 

[ZeonStar]

Recent changes:

-SideB is now techable, damage now at 13, endlag sped up 250%
	-Jab sped up 350% until frame 8, then normal speed, 1200% speed-up on frame 10 until 22, then 50% speed until 35, then normal speed.
	-IASA frame for Bair changed to 29 from 36 to enable SH-Bair-DJ within 4 frame window
	-IASA frame for Uair changed to 28 from 34 to enable SH-Uair-DJ within 5 frame window
	-Grab Collision Box 1 size increased to 8.8 from 4.8 to match the animation
	-IASA frame for U-tilt changed to 31 from 114
	-AC frame on Dair changed to 31 from 32
	-Air mobility raised to .04 from .03
	-Downthrow KBG to 40 from 50
	-Upthrow KBG to 55 from 105	

	New Physics:
	-SH 1.050 (was 1.025)
	-FH 1.100 (was 1.050)
	-FF 1.075 (was 1.100)
	-DG 1.025 (was 1.000)
	-FG 1.050 (was 1.000)

I'd appreciate as in-depth of feedback on all of these changes as possible. We're aware that U-throw needs less cooldown to be useful, we just haven't gotten to it yet.

Holy mentioned that his D-throw was "broken" and (almost?) always leads to a chain-grab. It would be super helpful if someone were to get a rough list of what's possible on a couple floaties, normal fallers, and fast-fallers in a given percent range with full DI, if anyone wants to help.

A lot of people are loving the U-tilt, but most agree it needs some polish. I wanted it to be a seldom used move that, when used creatively, opened a lot of rewarding possibilities. However, right now it's easy to spam it often and land it rarely. Of course not spamming would help you land it more () but I think it can be better.

GoG suggested moving the IASA frame back to 40/45 from 30 or only allowing certain moves from out of it. What are your thoughts? If it should be limited to certain moves, what would they be? Or are there other ways you'd polish the move?

Since when could Ganon chaingrab his downthrows? Ive NEVER been able to chaingrab with Ganon's downthrow, unless the opponent didnt DI at all, or just sucked balls. If anyone knew what they were doing, they could even DI behind ganon so that the only thing gauranteed was a Bair. Id like some proof of this -_-

Also, during the tournament when I was testing downthrow and such, it was pretty much useless, the change made it so the opponent could DI away and tech the stage, meaning it was useless, grabbing was actually a worse option than jabbing at that point.

 

[BG3]

I can't find this anywhere within this thread or in the changelist of Brawl+, so I'm asking here. Does Ganon's d-smash connect much better than it did before? What's changed about it, and how has it gotten better? Thanks in advance.

 

[GHNeko]

It connects better.

 

[BG3]

It connects better.

Does it always connect? Is it faster? Is it stronger? Is it used often by most Ganon+ pros?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Dair->Usmash->Uair->Fair.

This is probably the BEST Combo for Ganondorf in Brawl+.

Today, I'm testing new Combos & Follow-Ups.

I don't know if it's truly guaranteed or common knowledge but, I want to help.
Here's the Combos:

*Opponent at 0%
Dair -> Dthrow -> Fair [Does 46%]

*Low Percents
Dthrow -> Nair -> Wizkick [Does 37%]

Dthrow -> Nair -> Dtilt -> "Follow Up" (If anyone find a way to guarantee this combo, please post here. =])

I will try to find new combos in High Percents.

 

[BG3]

Does it always connect? Is it faster? Is it stronger? Is it used often by most Ganon+ pros?

Can somebody please answer this?

 

[GHNeko]

It's not faster. I cant remember if its stronger, and if the first hit connects, the second one usually does as well.

 

[Rkey]

I have a pretty weird combo that's not expected, but it's difficult to pull off:

You dair, and the you d-tilt. However, you have to d-tilt so close that the opponent gets launched behind you (reverse d-tilt if you will), and then you can get a grab. From here you can go to a lot of things, mostly this is just to get a grab. So:

Dair -> reverse d-tilt

 

[WheelOfFish]

I managed to d-air, grab, down throw, side-b, down-tilt, and forward air a few times on my friends. Really low percents and it's not a true combo, but it's pretty awesome if you can land it.

I think it only works on fast-fallers and heavies but I could be wrong.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can't cancel utilt with anything for some reason.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I have a pretty weird combo that's not expected, but it's difficult to pull off:

You dair, and the you d-tilt. However, you have to d-tilt so close that the opponent gets launched behind you (reverse d-tilt if you will), and then you can get a grab. From here you can go to a lot of things, mostly this is just to get a grab. So:

Dair -> reverse d-tilt

I will test this dude. If the opponent gets launched behind...

Dair -> reverse Dtilt -> Bair

Let's improve this.

I managed to d-air, grab, down throw, side-b, down-tilt, and forward air a few times on my friends. Really low percents and it's not a true combo, but it's pretty awesome if you can land it.

I think it only works on fast-fallers and heavies but I could be wrong.

Dair -> Dthrow -> Side-B -> Dtilt -> Fair
That's a good combo. The problem is, If Dtilt doesn't connect ?


I'm trying to Guarantee:

Dthrow -> Nair -> Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> "Follow Up"

These combos works very well in Low percents, but is hard to perform.

I can't cancel utilt with anything for some reason.

Are you sure that your Nightly Builds is 5.0 ?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Pretty sure. I downloaded and used the mac installer from brawlplus.net... Any fast way to check?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Pretty sure. I downloaded and used the mac installer from brawlplus.net... Any fast way to check?

Man... I installed the Nightly Builds 5.0 by my own.

I didn't use the Mac Installer.

Utilt Cancelling works pretty well here.

You should re-install everything and don't use the Mac Installer.

Idk... I prefer make everything by my own, It's much more safe for me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It said it was a lot of files so I trusted them... I'll do it manually and go from there.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

NIGHTLY BUILDS 5.0



Utilt Cancelling->Jab DATA

I will show here in which Percents the combo Utilt->Jab is Guaranteed. It's just an additional information.

*The Jab DOESN'T cancel the Very High Knockback of Utilt.

Percents:

*Low Percents
Guaranteed at:
0%

10%

20%

30%

40%


*Mid Percents
Guaranteed at:
50%

60%


*High Percents
Guaranteed at:

(Only For Big/Heavy Characters)
70%

80%

90%

100%

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So whatever happened to the match up discussion, as I recall it started with falcon and then it just disappeared lol? I would really like some advice on how to deal with characters that exploit ganon's weakness of being easily gimped, preferably mk and or jiggs. Any feedback on these two characters specifically or a way I could learn to at least lessen the impact of being gimped I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

So whatever happened to the match up discussion, as I recall it started with falcon and then it just disappeared lol? I would really like some advice on how to deal with characters that exploit ganon's weakness of being easily gimped, preferably mk and or jiggs. Any feedback on these two characters specifically or a way I could learn to at least lessen the impact of being gimped I would greatly appreciate it.

I tried to talk with goodoldganon, like 3 times through PM and Brawlplus chat and he didn't answer.

I would like if the thread creator make a section for Combos. Would be interesting if we have more information.

About the Match-Up section, I don't know what happened.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is Nair a useful approach/combo move? I know it's CF's bread and butter approach, but is it any good for us?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Is Nair a useful approach/combo move? I know it's CF's bread and butter approach, but is it any good for us?

Nair is being much more useful now.

For Combos:
I'm trying to guarantee: Dthrow -> Nair -> Dtilt -> Uair -> Fair.
If you guarantee any combo with Nair included, it can be useful.

For Approaches:
Well... Since Nair almost hasn't Start Up/Ending Lag, it can be useful for approaches sometimes. I recommed use Nair for follow ups, juggle breaker and gimp.

It's still a good move.

 

[Rkey]

I hardly ever use Nair, the fact that the second hit is hard to connect and actualy has LESS knockback than the first one just makes the move feel ******** to me. It's like the second kick is part of the "ending lag".

 

[BG3]

Is it possible to give him back his Melee nair? That move was awesome. Made him less clonish than Falcon, because the first hit had the knockback while the second one didn't have as much. Thoughts?

 

[Rkey]

Is it possible to give him back his Melee nair? That move was awesome. Made him less clonish than Falcon, because the first hit had the knockback while the second one didn't have as much. Thoughts?

That's exactly what it's like right now?

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Would be nice if Ganondorf's Nair could connect all the hits until mid percents (50%-60%).

Guys, we need to wait for the next Nightly Build. Basically the first hit should has less knockback and the second hit should has more knockback to connect all the hits.

Today, Nair is being much more viable in Brawl+, but you can't connect all the hits everytime, unless you're fighting a heavy character like Bowser.

 

[BG3]

Ganondorf isn't exactly the character that gets in a lot of hits on you, so I think nair should just be powerful enough that he doesn't need to have both hits connect. However, if this change was made, then there would have to be a small chance that both hits of it would connect, since it would already be powerful enough.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ganondorf isn't exactly the character that gets in a lot of hits on you, so I think nair should just be powerful enough that he doesn't need to have both hits connect.

Well... Would be nice if Nair could inflict more damage. But it would be unbalanced.

I think if you could connect the 2 hits all the time, it would be much more interesting. I sometimes get mad when I didn't connect the 2 hits during the battle.

 

[ZeonStar]

Ive noticed when I play alot of fast characters that approach in the air, like say, captain falcon, ive noticed Nair is a good approach or just keep away move in some situations.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ive noticed when I play alot of fast characters that approach in the air, like say, captain falcon, ive noticed Nair is a good approach or just keep away move in some situations.

You're pretty right dude. I noticed that too.

Let's talk about Falcon's Nair which is the same Nair of Ganondorf.
Cap. Falcon's Nair is very useful cause his Nair doesn't have lag and it's a fast attack. I saw one match between 5ive (Cap. Falcon) vs Distructo (Marth) which showed the potential of Falcon's Nair.

The Falcon mainers uses Nair a lot without fear, cause that attack inflicts 10% (Not bad, I guess) and it doesn't get stale. Falcon's Nair is a dangerous attack.

 

[Hyrus]

Today, Nair is being much more viable in Brawl+, but you can't connect all the hits every time, unless you're fighting a heavy character like Bowser.

So what?

Not every move in a character's moveset needs to be in excellent standings. Nair has unique properties and applications that set it apart in Ganon's air game. Now, if we're just buffing every shortcoming he has for the sake of our dark master, hey i'm on board.

===

I must observe. Ganon was a relatively grounded character in vBrawl. His short hopped Uair substituted as an Utilt while a thunderstorm felt more like a grounded defense. In the transition, Ganon is steadily becoming far more aerial. A spaced Fair is just so juicy, and the Bair is excellent when the spacing calls for it. The 8/13 physics changes make him feel less rigid in the air. While it certainly improves his game, it also blurs his individuality. But maybe a little compromise is what it takes to create a balance.

 

[stRIP]

You're pretty right dude. I noticed that too.

Let's talk about Falcon's Nair which is the same Nair of Ganondorf.
Cap. Falcon's Nair is very useful cause his Nair doesn't have lag and it's a fast attack. I saw one match between 5ive (Cap. Falcon) vs Distructo (Marth) which showed the potential of Falcon's Nair.

The Falcon mainers uses Nair a lot without fear, cause that attack inflicts 10% (Not bad, I guess) and it doesn't get stale. Falcon's Nair is a dangerous attack.

Ganons nair is nowhere near Captain Falcons.


While Falcons nair firsthit nearly has NONE knockback, our first hit of it has more then the 2nd one.

They just look really similar, thats all.

Startuplag is different, endlag is different, the frames in which the hitboxes are out are different.


Im using nair combined with double jump uair to ISJR uairs. AIRCAMPING GANONDORF; LOOOLLOLOOLOL

 

[Rkey]

I guess what's really cool with Ganon's nair is it's strange knockbacks. I have to agree with Hyrus, since this is the case:

- The first hit comes out VERY quick, unlike Ganon's other aerials. It works as a combo breaker.
- The first hit has enough KB for ganks and the like (not like fair, think of it as gtfo like zeon said)
- The fact that the second hit has less knockback allows you at higher percents to either: 1. Knock people away with it or 2. Combo by hitting with the second hit, dealing more damage but actually getting less knockback.

The move is pretty useful. The fact that it is not easy to conenct both hits is just part of the challenge : )

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Ganons nair is nowhere near Captain Falcons.


While Falcons nair firsthit nearly has NONE knockback, our first hit of it has more then the 2nd one.

They just look really similar, thats all.

Startuplag is different, endlag is different, the frames in which the hitboxes are out are different.


Im using nair combined with double jump uair to ISJR uairs. AIRCAMPING GANONDORF; LOOOLLOLOOLOL

I would be very glad if shanus change the Ganondorf's Nair. The first hit with Less knockback and the second one with More knockback. If he does that change, God bless him.


One question:
Assuming that Ganon's Nair was changed and it has The first hit with Less knockback and the second one with More knockback.
Would you like that ?

 

[BG3]

I think they wanted to give him more individuality as a character, so the current nair right now is different from Falcon and it still has its uses, which was the aim, I guess.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think they wanted to give him more individuality as a character, so the current nair right now is different from Falcon and it still has its uses, which was the aim, I guess.

...

The current nair... is his vbrawl nair. We didn't change anything about it. It just has less landlag due to the universal ALR.

And I see no reason to make his nair like falcon's. It already has uses. It doesn't need to be a falcon wannabe. The only thing I would change about the move is its hitbox duration, to actually last the whole time his legs are out there (like was done for falcon), and maybe messing with its AC frame a bit. But we don't need to completely change the archetype of the attack.

 

[ZeonStar]

If falcon approaches you with nair, nair back. The main thing about ganon's nair is that its great against characters with weak priority approaches, the hitbox is much bigger than that of falcons nair, flub knee, possibly sonic's fair, and such, eh....its really situational but useful if used right, I dont think anything needs to be done to it.

 

[5ive]

You're pretty right dude. I noticed that too.

Let's talk about Falcon's Nair which is the same Nair of Ganondorf.
Cap. Falcon's Nair is very useful cause his Nair doesn't have lag and it's a fast attack. I saw one match between 5ive (Cap. Falcon) vs Distructo (Marth) which showed the potential of Falcon's Nair.

The Falcon mainers uses Nair a lot without fear, cause that attack inflicts 10% (Not bad, I guess) and it doesn't get stale. Falcon's Nair is a dangerous attack.

I don't use Captain falcon.

 

[BG3]

...

The current nair... is his vbrawl nair. We didn't change anything about it. It just has less landlag due to the universal ALR.

And I see no reason to make his nair like falcon's. It already has uses. It doesn't need to be a falcon wannabe. The only thing I would change about the move is its hitbox duration, to actually last the whole time his legs are out there (like was done for falcon), and maybe messing with its AC frame a bit. But we don't need to completely change the archetype of the attack.

Oh wow, my bad.