Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion - Forever Outdated :(

[deepseadiva]

sorry if this is a noob question or if its already known. i just thought i'd share this

Don't all grabs have super armor to them? Maybe just pivots...

Well, Peach's does at least - and it's known of course.

And concerning our Q&A... The threads around here somewhere, oh here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201128

 

[Airgemini]

does peach's grab have super armor?

Don't all grabs have super armor to them? Maybe just pivots...

Grabs do not have SA frames, it does however have those non flinching armor for like one frame.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BAcZLy353o <--- Shows the non flinching thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeuXNw5P3G4 <--- Proves they do not have SA

 

[jog]

Don't all grabs have super armor to them? Maybe just pivots...

Well, Peach's does at least - and it's known of course.

And concerning our Q&A... The threads around here somewhere, oh here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201128

thank you sir

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Sorry levitas but the dash grab chain grab is escapable but I've never played a lucas who could get out of it more than once every 5 or 6 tries. It's not hard at all just buffer the dash.

 

[P.O.P.]

You need to learn to space fairs and fsmashes in this game ALOT because you want to get your hits in without having to trade hits.
DONT TOAD lucas' fsmash. His fsmash has reflective properties and if u toad it, the spores come back and hit you.
Peach bomber works to a good degree when it comes to lucas' recovery where he uses pk fire and downb to go from right to left or vice versa.
Dair combos and sheild grabbing are also excellent strategies against him

 

[JigglyZelda003]

can Lucas OoS against peachs Dair w/ his Nair?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

-Sonic- 60-40

Discussion: Posts 1499 - 1560

What to Watch out For:
-Fastest ground speed in the game
-Spin attacks
-Good, versatile recovery
-Excellent punishment game
-Up Tilt and spaced Bair, both of which are good anti air/float moves

Matchup Mentality:
-Play defensivly and make Sonic approach you
-Be patient
-Don't do anything slow
-Make good use of Turnips
-Don't be predictable
-Use aerials such as Nair to knock him out of his spindashes

Did you know?
-Peach has a lot more priority than Sonic does. All her aerials will knock him out of his spin dashes
-If Sonic uses Homing Attack, it's a free chance to land a Nair or an Up Smash if you're on the ground
-If Peach plays defensivly, Sonic will always have to be the one who approaches
-Sonic excels in his punishment game. Being predictable and overly agressive will lose you the match
-A lot of Sonic's will use their Dair after using their Up + B. Punish accordingly as they land
-Many Sonic's will try and kill you vertically by means of using their Up + B and then following up with a Uair. Counter by using Floating Dair/Dair or airdodging
-If you grab Sonic out of his Up + B over the ledge, do not hit him. Instead, air release him and he will air trip
-Steak

Quotes:

Sonic, really has no priority when compared to Peach, floating nairs are more than enough to hit Sonic out of SpinDash Rolls (SDRs), HA becomes absolutely useless in this matchup, as it is easy to see coming and easy to hit.

Knowing that, Sonic is going to pick his approaches carefully, because this isn't March/April where Sonic is all about spin attacks.

You're going to want to float a little bit higher than usual, because Sonic's ground spacing tool is FTilt, rise above the distance even angled up, and Sonic loses a lot of moves for uses.

Knowing that, expect Bair/Hyphened USmash as the normal approaches. Fair/Dair can be used ifyou get really predictable/careless. Sonic is the king of punishment, don't leave yourself open too often. Take in mind that Sonic can angle his FSmash upward, so if you really get predictable with your float, Sonic is just going to wait for you to slip somewhere and have you fall on his fist.

Sonic can use turnips against you if not easily avoid them, because the SBR THAT right when they said Sonic is top-tier with items, I would use Turnips for just getting around/tossing them straight up into the air to cause a distraction.

Sonic will use UTilt to knock you out of your float as it has decent disjointedness at Sonic's shoes.

Don't float to get back on the stage, you'll leave yourself open for Sonic to use Bair to either push you further away from the stage, or just outright kill you. I recommand recovering very high or low, just be careful when recovering high because Sonic is going to Spring to Uair to kill you. He'll even use this after an U-Throw and you are up there in the air.

Use a retreating Toad if you want to punish Sonic trying to recover by locking on to you with HA, the spores should teach him a lesson.

Take Sonic somewhere where his kill options become even more limited than usual. Japes is a good palce to play against Sonic because the usual U-Throw -> Uair K.O. won't work due to the very high ceiling, and with Peach getting horizontal K.O.s are harder than usual.

That's all I got... that, and the matchup ratio is a solid 6:4 Peach's favor, nothing more, and nothing less.

Something about the Homing Attack... If he ever really uses it, Peach can do a lot to punish him. Using it as a recovery option is a bad idea, because we can either dodge/get out of range, and he'll fly downward. Alternatively, once you get the timing down, you can hit him with a nair, a possible fair(if you REALLY know the timing), or the very odd usmash if he's too close. There's even a chance you'll hit the big sweetspot.

Oh, and if Sonic EVER gets in grabbing range from his up B, treat him like Snake. He won't regain his up B if you just hold him and let him break free.

Turnips are nice, but Peach's priority is good, too. If you can't toss around turnips, which you probably won't get much chance to do because of Sonic's sheer speed, this is one of those cases where it isn't a complete loss. Both sides are damage builders in this match, and landing KO moves kinda depends on tricking opponents. Peach's priority makes damage-building for her a bit easier in this match, though, and because Sonic is also decently light, unless you don't know what moves of Sonic's can KO, Peach just might have an easier time KOing.

Not by much, mind you, but easier because her aerials, in which bair and nair are decent killers, fair is slower but more powerful, dair shouldn't kill, and uair will have a tough time KOing, too, are all easier to connect with than some of Sonic's. His fsmash is his most powerful smash by far, but with proper spacing is decently easy to avoid(basically our usmash). His usmash is a multi-hit, and can be DI'ed out of. Dsmash is long and only hits once, like Wario's(though not NEARLY as long), so if it's blocked things go badly for Sonic.

On Peach's side, where Sonic has the knowledge of proper spacing since he only has one variety to work with, her fsmash is random. Frying pan will pop him into the air, which is a good thing for us because his speed is severely limited in the air(as well as his options). Tennis racket can kill quick, and golf club can keep him away. The drawback for Peach is it's random, so we can't always rely on it to do what we want like Sonic can. While our dsmash is a multi-hit and is less easy to punish, if Sonic sees it coming or he shields the hits, we're open to be punished. That and there's practically no KO potential unless we somehow stage spike him(aka not gonna happen). Our usmash, which by far outclasses Sonic's in terms of KO potential, is sadly the HARDEST to land on Sonic. We'd have to be really lucky, break his shield, or he HA's/dairs into us. Circumstances like these are so rare that our usmash is practically taken out of the equation, sadly... It'll remain as a highly circumstantial ace in the hole as per usual.

As for gameplay, I'll have to leave that to others. I have yet to face a good Sonic, especially IRL, so any other comparisons I can make would be speculation at best.

I main both characters so I reckon I have a pretty good understanding of this matchup. I've played quite a few of the Sonic mains and I know all Sonic's techs (kind of). I think this match up is 60:40 in Peach's favour. Though, if you don't know what you're doing, it can feel like 70:30 in Sonic's favour

Sonic is fast. Very fast. It is crucial you don't do anything too slow (no pun intended) because Sonic can very easily punish you. You have to play very smart in this match because good Sonic's will have all kinds of trickery up their sleeve. He has a very good grab game. If you do get grabbed, learn to DI. Sonic's Up throw is the most powerful in the game and can be followed up with the embarrasing Up + B ---> Uair kill. DI left or right for that. DI up for his Down throw and start a lot. A lot of Sonic's like to punish a failed tech from their Down Throw via a tech chase with another grab

Sonic's Side B/Down + B are not simply for rolling around - they can be jumped out of and cancelled in a huge variety of ways (see my thread it's number 17). You have to be extremely careful that you don't get baited by Sonic because of Sonic's speed. Fair/Toad/Turnip use will have to be well planned and carefully used because of Sonic's ability to cancel his approaches with ease

Peach's priority trashes Sonic's. Nair (heck, even jab) will hit him out of all his spindashes. Dair will cut through his moves. Peach Bomber will also knock Sonic out of his spindashes but it's a risky move to pull off. Sonic's Homing Attack is his worst enemy in this match up. Nair will hit him out of it and if he tries to hit Peach whsilt she's on the ground, Peach can land her Up Smash on him (believe me, it won't be the sourspot)

A very very very common thing that all Sonic's do now and then is to use their Up + B (Spring) and then use Dair which will make them land on the ground again (lagless if timed right). Abuse this by either Up Tilting them out of the Dair or grab them when they land! Throw Turnips up in the air if you have them in hand

Gimping Sonic is not going to happen often since he has very good recovery. Turnips are pretty much useless. You can do the grab trick if Sonic is near the edge. If he's recovering from below, predict where he'll spring up and start a Float and get ready to hit him out of his Up + B. You have to outright kill Sonic as gimping is hard to do...unfortunetly, landing a kill move on Sonic is hard. Fair is too slow a lot of the time

One of the most irritating things Sonic can do (and indeed a lot of other characters) is continually space aerials (in this case, Sonic's Bair). It has surprising range so watch out. Jump up and Toad it if he gets sloppy or outrange it with your Fair, or go for the good old F Tilt. Peach's Bair will trade hits with Sonic's Bair


This match up is about being smart and making the right choices. If you rush in, you'll get owned. Personally, I sometimes like to try and play Sonic's at their own game (e.g. grab use, baiting)

Watch Sonic's fall animation after he's used his Up + B. You'll notice it's different - he spins around rather than falls normally

When he is in this state he cannot use any of his B moves. He can't use his Spin Dash or his Spin Charge or Homing attack or his Spring again when he's in this state unless

- He gets hit (hence why Turnip gimping is useless vs Sonic as Spring recovery >>>> Turnip knockback)
- He gets Footstooled
- He grabs the ledge

Grabbing a Sonic and forcing him to air trip will very very very rarely ever happen thanks to Spinshot, Fair use to help him move forward and (lolno) Homing attack I guess. Most Sonic's only use Spring as recovery as a last resort

Speaking of Spring, don't be an idiot and immediatly drop down from your returning platform when you lose a stock back onto the stage, only to see yourself zooming sky high into the air because Sonic planted a grounded Spring underneath you

How's this Edreese? I'll ask the Sonic mains to have a look through it to make sure I haven't missed anything out

 

[Chis]

Seems good to me Rick.

 

[Jim Morrison]

didn't bother reading the quotes, but did you talk about ASC, ASCcancel and SDSC?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hmm...not specifically. I did them in my other thread. I'll find some way of incorperating them into the review

 

[Napilopez]

Sounds pretty good. You should note that the best way to punish Sonic from a Dair after a spring is with a grab. People tend to try to punish the landing with an attack, which is usually futile as Sonic can turn the landing into a shield simply by holding the shield button. Since grabs go through shields however, this is not a problem.

 

[Kinzer]

You should've put Steak as something to watch out for, but other than that, it looks pretty dang good to me at least.

Also we are invading your boardz... AGAIN!

Muahahahaha!!!

 

[Tenki]

Why do you keep talking about outprioritizing spindashes?

If you want it to be useful, talk about outprioritizing Sonic's other moves.

 

[Dark.Pch]

which a Jab takes care of, even his spindash.

 

[Kinzer]

I thought it would just clank with spindash if it was fully charged, but we all know what comes after. -_-

Anyway I guess Tenki has some kind of point, even though Peach really gets off easy with outprioritizing most things in Sonic's arsenal, it's still good to talk about it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

which is not the time. this is about lucas.

 

[NinjaLink]

well lucas can nair out the shield as well as uair.

 

[gantrain05]

yeah...i don't really have anything to add with the lucas discussion, can't say that i have ever played any lucas main...at all. so i'll be back in a week fellow peaches.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Why do you keep talking about outprioritizing spindashes?

If you want it to be useful, talk about outprioritizing Sonic's other moves.

This isn't really the final version and I'm not asking Edreese to use it. Spindashes were first on my mind as people get ***** if they don't know how to stop them, hence my emphasis on them

What moves do you reccommend I talk about outprioritizing Tenki? Sonic's Uair can be stopped by Peach's Dair (correct me if I'm wrong) which I've put in, Peach's and Sonic's Bair will trade hits (that's in my quote I think), Peach's F Tilt will stop Sonic's Fair/Bair when properly spaced, Peach's Up Tilt can stop Sonic's Dair (then again it can stop pretty much all Dairs...all that stuff is in there but it's in my quote so I didn't want to repeat myself and make the match up review too long

 

[Dark.Pch]

This isn't really the final version and I'm not asking Edreese to use it. Spindashes were first on my mind as people get ***** if they don't know how to stop them, hence my emphasis on them

What moves do you reccommend I talk about outprioritizing Tenki? Sonic's Uair can be stopped by Peach's Dair (correct me if I'm wrong) which I've put in, Peach's and Sonic's Bair will trade hits (that's in my quote I think), Peach's F Tilt will stop Sonic's Fair/Bair when properly spaced, Peach's Up Tilt can stop Sonic's Dair (then again it can stop pretty much all Dairs...all that stuff is in there but it's in my quote so I didn't want to repeat myself and make the match up review too long

dude keep the sonic talk about of here, it is wasting post and pages, dont you guys have a back room for this? This is about lucaus right now.

 

[deepseadiva]

dude keep the sonic talk about of here, it is wasting post and pages, dont you guys have a back room for this? This is about lucaus right now.

Dark, it's our matchu up thread. Discussion is supposed to go here.

Lucas is just our "main topic" at the moment.

 

[crazycrackers]

Out-prioritizing spindashes? Theres no question. Peach can out prioritize them with air attacks and ground attacks. Even Peach's jab can stop it. Even though I think those two will clank, the spin-dash will be canceled and Peach will then have the advantage. Her jab is two frames so you can just do it again and that will lead into a grab. For that matter, Peach might just be able to go strait to grabbing after she cancels the spin-dash. Spin attacks are not effective against Peach at all, nor are any of his special attacks. The focus in this matchup is the rest of Sonic's moveset. Sonic's punishment game is where he accels against Peach. If she tries basically ANYTHING slow (like smash attacks, turnip draws, etc) without being absolutely sure she's safe Sonic can punish her. One thing Peach users should know is that after doing a move which temps Sonic users to run to Peach (in an attempt to punish) is that they shouldn't shield. Its completely in-effective. If a Sonic user runs up to you, jab them. A lot of the time, Sonic will grab and your shield won't be worth anything. Otherwise, the Sonic user can dash attack you. With proper spacing, this will go past your shield too far for you to bair/grab him. If you do lots of spaced aerials against him, he will eventually try to catch you by suprise and hit you with one of his aerials (if you space right he'll probably try fair). When he does you can Nair him or drop your float with timing. If you drop your float, you might be able to get away with a Ftilt/Utilt. Peach's air game vs Sonic's air game isn't a big deal. Peach's airs have more range than Sonic's and therefore have better priority. They also have nice hitboxes to cover her from all angles. When Sonic tries a ground approach you can Dair them. If Sonic gets Peach high up and tries the old Uair maneuver, Dair will beat it I believe. Turnips should barely be used in this matchup at all. Play defensive and Sonic has to approach. Peach has counters for basically every approach Sonic has. Don't go on offense or Sonic will own you. As long as you play smart, quick, and defensive this is in Peach's favor 60-40. Everything has basically been mentioned by other people at this point so I only got into this broadly. Also: Utilt his UpB>Dair. If you can't, then don't punish it. It has no lag.

 

[crazycrackers]

dude keep the sonic talk about of here, it is wasting post and pages, dont you guys have a back room for this? This is about lucaus right now.

Good point lol. Although mostly everyone has agreed that Peach vs. Lucas is 60-40 Peach. Still, we might as well wait till we're officially done with it. Plus we do need some vids.

 

[Levitas]

You really don't get it. First off. Don't act like we will never be kicking your azzes in the air. it will happen. We won't be grounded 24/7 and we won't be in the air 24/7, So let me get that out the way now.

When did I say ANY of that. ALL I said on this matchup was that IF I can limit your game, you will have less option. And having less options is better for me. That's the ONLY thing I've said. I don't know where you're getting this notion that I've expressed an opinion regarding matchup numbers, who beats who in the air, or anything else comes from.

Oh, i guess I did count out the ways you can approach on the ground if I'm keeping you out of the air, but that's more of a concrete expression of my claim that if set A contains set B, set A has more elements than set B.

If you PK fire in the air, I will just glide toss to get close and even clack you with a turnip in the process. You seriously believe the air is all we really have, if that is what you really think, you know lil about this character at all to be talking like you know it all. Peach has a good air and ground game. And the Fact that Peach can use her air game on the ground makes up for for air PK fires.

Is that how you deal with lasers, too? Most of the time when we say PK fire, it's a SH pk fire. There are a lot of ways to get around them, but glide tossing isn't one.

Funny thing happened last night. I Fsmashed a glidetossed turnip for a KO. The turnip hit, then the fsmash hit, btw.

I NEVER said that the air is all you guys had. Quote me saying that. You're taking what I said and stretching it past any claims I've made, then critiquing and INSULTING that version. I don't appreciate this.

If you PK fire in the air, it is easier to hit you and get close, since she is faster on the ground. And you know nothing of her jab game to talk like this:

Instant float>Nair/Bair/Fair>Jab>w/e you want next. And to make this better add a turnip to this. I can jab first to w/e. I mix and match. So Please don't act like PK Fire is your god, cause it is not in this fight. I said how Peach can fix you if you PK fire in the air. so use being grounded means nothing at all to a good Peach player. Nothing. And if you do it on the ground...........I don't even need to say it. When fighting this campy lucaus in a tournament match, He PK fired in the air and ground, all that crap and what I speak here is exactly what I did about the PK fire and he got beat up.

Allow me to express another opinion. Jab doesn't get you whatever you want. You can't even jab to grab lucas if it's not spaced with super humping range.

And I want to know who's lucas you played. PK fire can be done right, but it can also be done wrong. The way you're acting like using PK fire is a hinderance to the lucas using it makes me think that perhaps you don't know as much as you claim. Whoops, I guess that was verging on ad hominem. I'll count that as even with the several instances you called my strawmanned argument out as being ********. My strawmanned argument that for some reason was representing believes that I hadn't even come close to expressing.

A Peach that is skillful in both air and the ground, PK fire not much to worry about. You keep thinking about the typical Peach thats just floats and Dairs alot. Quit it and look on about Peach players that know how to fight air and ground and know what they are doing.
[/COLOR]

lol. You got me. I totally was implying that I am thinking about a peach that Dairs a lot and floats. WRONG.

Think about what you're saying. You need to start basing your claims off of evidence that at least has some basis in fact.

Right now, you're probably thinking "man, I want to eat a hamburger", aren't you? See, I can do that mindreading thing, too. And I'm about as good at it as you are.

Besides, If I'm pk firing at SH spacing, that cuts off ground and lower floats. You're gonna be at a spacing where only your Dair is effective if you want to float over it. So I'm not sure what you're implying when you say something like that.

Sorry levitas but the dash grab chain grab is escapable but I've never played a lucas who could get out of it more than once every 5 or 6 tries. It's not hard at all just buffer the dash.

I'm a little sad that nobody you've played felt like having enough skill to escape it.

It's still not a combo. It's still escapable.

can Lucas OoS against peachs Dair w/ his Nair?

no. Lucas has to retreat from Peach's floated Dair and try to prevent her from doing it.

Lucas tends to have to full hop fair to prevent this, I use fair way more in this matchup than any other.

Oh, and for the record, I think 6:4 peach is right. I'm arguing to help you guys get some facts straight, and because I don't like the tone that Dark Pch decided to take with me. For some reason, he thinks he's just flat out better at knowing things, I guess. And when people commit ad hominems, I consider it a free license to rip apart their posts.

 

[crazycrackers]

"Is that how you deal with lasers, too? "

No. This isn't how Peach deals with lasers. If you haven't noticed, lasers like Falco's are WAY better than PKF and WAY different. Comparing SH PKF to a projectile like that is simply unrealistic. Then again, I've been wrong before. -.-

 

[Levitas]

"Is that how you deal with lasers, too? "

No. This isn't how Peach deals with lasers. If you haven't noticed, lasers like Falco's are WAY better than PKF and WAY different. Comparing SH PKF to a projectile like that is simply unrealistic. Then again, I've been wrong before. -.-

Let me express why this situation is the same graphically:

As you can see, a glide toss would get the peach hit by the laser,but if the laser were a PK fire, the sheer fact that PK fire isn't as good as the laser would allow Peach to glidetoss through the fire without getting hit.

 

[deepseadiva]

I lol'd. 10lols

 

[Dark.Pch]

Is that how you deal with lasers, too? Most of the time when we say PK fire, it's a SH pk fire. There are a lot of ways to get around them, but glide tossing isn't one.

Funny thing happened last night. I Fsmashed a glidetossed turnip for a KO. The turnip hit, then the fsmash hit, btw.

I NEVER said that the air is all you guys had. Quote me saying that. You're taking what I said and stretching it past any claims I've made, then critiquing and INSULTING that version. I don't appreciate this.

First off, I said don't act like it, cause how you sound, thats how you came off. So 'll said it again, don't act like it.

And for your PK fire, you do it ground to mid level, we full hop to Dair/Fairs or float to the moves. Better to go with Full hopping, it is faster. Now if you do it above this point, we glide toss and its a done deal.

And a difference between you and falco, he can shoot a laser in the air, and then while comming down, he can D-B and relfect the turnip. So how would you handle falco? Power shield the ground lasers and move close to falco. And this can also be done to lucas. so in a way...you can deal with his PK fire just how you can deal with his lasers and get close to him.



Allow me to express another opinion. Jab doesn't get you whatever you want. You can't even jab to grab lucas if it's not spacedwith super humping range.

You just said my favorite word. Ever played a Peach that spaces like hell? Her Jab is quick and has range. it's one of the best combo breakers. And you can jab to grab lucas. You can jab to almost anything. Where in the word are you getting this idea from, just what Peach players have you been facing to give you this idea? Her jab to so much stuff. The hell? So yes Jab can get me what I want. Then again this is your opinion and not even knowing Peach like that. So Moving on past post like this......

And I want to know who's lucas you played. PK fire can be done right, but it can also be done wrong. The way you're acting like using PK fire is a hinderance to the lucas using it makes me think that perhaps you don't know as much as you claim. Whoops, I guess that was verging on ad hominem. I'll count that as even with the several instances you called my strawmanned argument out as being ********. My strawmanned argument that for some reason was representing believes that I hadn't even come close to expressing.

I have no clue what in the world you are talking about. Tis is for the people who are going on about PK fire being thier key to victory. PK fire can be dealt with n both air and ground. This is not a toll that you can depend on to get you the win as people are thinking.



lol. You got me. I totally was implying that I am thinking about a peach that Dairs a lot and floats. WRONG.

Think about what you're saying. You need to start basing your claims off of evidence that at least has some basis in fact.

Right now, you're probably thinking "man, I want to eat a hamburger", aren't you? See, I can do that mindreading thing, too. And I'm about as good at it as you are.

What????????????????

Besides, If I'm pk firing at SH spacing, that cuts off ground and lower floats. You're gonna be at a spacing where only your Dair is effective if you want to float over it. So I'm not sure what you're implying when you say something like that.

Full hops as I said already or powersheild and then move in with a glide toss/ running out and getting close, etc. Done.

Now as for the other post:

Let me express why this situation is the same graphically:

As you can see, a glide toss would get the peach hit by the laser,but if the laser were a PK fire, the sheer fact that PK fire isn't as good as the laser would allow Peach to glidetoss through the fire without getting hit.

- Peach can float at a height over that, get close to you and do her thing after.
- Which that turnip Full hop and throw it to snipe you
- Power shield to Glide toss
- Jump over it and toss turnup to air attack.

See how easy that was?

Oh and let me add this, you will still get crak with a turnip of it leaves her hand before it hits her (if it even touches her to begin with.)

 

[crazycrackers]

Now as for the other post:



- Peach can float at a height over that, get close to you and do her thing after.
- Which that turnip Full hop and throw it to snipe you
- Power shield to Glide toss
- Jump over it and toss turnup to air attack.

See how easy that was?

Oh and let me add this, you will still get crak with a turnip of it leaves her hand before it hits her (if it even touches her to begin with.)

The truth is here.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

dude keep the sonic talk about of here, it is wasting post and pages, dont you guys have a back room for this? This is about lucaus right now.

.....

Look 'dude', I'm trying to do Edreese a favour by writing up a match up. If it's garbage, he doesn't have to use it

Why should I take it to a backroom of only specific Peach/Sonic mains? It seems logical I post it in both places so that if I/Peach/Sonic has got something wrong, somoneone else/Sonic/Peach can point that out

I don't see what the big deal is about using up...what, another few pages for a match up with the same match up ratio as Lucas (60:40 Peach) by the looks of things?

Whatever, carry on discussing Lucas - or rather, who's jab is faster

For ****'s sake...

 

[gantrain05]

i don't see the problem with PK fire, just walk towards lucas, powershield the stupid PK fire, and force him to the edge where his options are limited....PK fire works as spacing only for so long, when you don't have anymore room you are gonna have to do something else. basically what i see is peach's Ftilt beats pretty much any attack lucas is gonna throw out, if he comes at you with a Nair > jab combo, Ftilt it, if he comes with a Dair, Ftilt it, if he comes with an Ftilt, Ftilt it.

 

[PRINCESS PEACH777]

Let me express why this situation is the same graphically:

As you can see, a glide toss would get the peach hit by the laser,but if the laser were a PK fire, the sheer fact that PK fire isn't as good as the laser would allow Peach to glidetoss through the fire without getting hit.

lol love the drawing X3

 

[JigglyZelda003]

no. Lucas has to retreat from Peach's floated Dair and try to prevent her from doing it.

Lucas tends to have to full hop fair to prevent this, I use fair way more in this matchup than any other.
.

**** so that was just a lag trick after all. and yeah i did find that moar Fair helps here.

Why should I take it to a backroom of only specific Peach/Sonic mains? It seems logical I post it in both places so that if I/Peach/Sonic has got something wrong, somoneone else/Sonic/Peach can point that out...

QFT
at least according to the PBR, many of our members are absent there.

 

[Levitas]

First off, I said don't act like it, cause how you sound, thats how you came off. So 'll said it again, don't act like it.

LOL. Nice. So, apparently I haven't been stating my opinions, I've been acting in a manner that adequately represents them to the extent that you know more about what I'm thinking than you should. From what you've posted, I see a descrepency between what you think I'm acting out (as words seem to be inadequate to express the kinds of thoughts I have, the gestures I must be using are probably grunts of various pitches and scratching motions centered around my armpits or butt).

In fact, this descrepency has been the subject of my last few posts. Here's the formula:

1. I make ONE claim. That if A contains B and some other stuff, B must have fewer elements than A

2. You call me out on being wrong

3. I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say, so I restate it in a clear manner (perhaps a little sarcasm for flavor)

4. You clearly misunderstand my posts to the point of deciding that everything I say is wrong despite the fact that on the only non-trivial fact here, I've agreed with every person who's put down a 6:4 for peach. In fact, there are two disagreements I've had. I'll give each a full line so maybe you'll see them and stop to think about them (both of them) for a second.

FIRST: If I'm limiting your options with a well placed PK fire, you don't have more options than if I'm not limiting your options.

SECOND: Your jab is not a 100% "look at me, I can use this to combo into anything I want" move.


Now, check this out. This part is the part where I support my claims.

For my first point, I would like to mention that if I do a PK fire at a SH level, this cuts off your immediate approaches on the ground and in the air at anything below a full hop float height. You'll note that the number of options that I have blocked is above zero. This is what I, and a few others, like to call a "positive number". Now, if I take the "positive number" of options you have in total, and subtract the "positive number" of options I have cut off, I get a smaller "positive number" than the "positive number" of options you previously had. I beg of you, don't argue against this. I really really really hope that you got that far that you know that subtracting postitive numbers makes the result less than the value you start with.

Since you like the word spacing so much, I'll contend with your point when I get to that point in your post.

And for your PK fire, you do it ground to mid level, we full hop to Dair/Fairs or float to the moves. Better to go with Full hopping, it is faster. Now if you do it above this point, we glide toss and its a done deal.

There is a difference between you having fewer options and you having no answers. I can list an answer to every single option peach has, but you aren't arguing against what I said by posting this. In fact, you've ignored it and posted something completely unrelated.

In logical terms, I made a claim A. You refuted that because B therefore C and B. You'll note that C is not the same as "not A".

The claim I made boils down to the fact that since you cannot do certain things after I pk fire, I am limiting your options to fewer ones than what you otherwise would have had. I'm astounded that you would (try to) argue against that.

And a difference between you and falco, he can shoot a laser in the air, and then while comming down, he can D-B and relfect the turnip. So how would you handle falco? Power shield the ground lasers and move close to falco. And this can also be done to lucas. so in a way...you can deal with his PK fire just how you can deal with his lasers and get close to him.

So you took that much space to say "no, that isn't how I deal w/ lasers, I do this instead, because that other thing I mentioned doesn't work"

I just want to point out that a SH pk fire will repel a glide toss, as the turnip will either hit the bolt and ignite it, hitting peach, or the bolt will just ignite on peach before she throws it.

I have no problem with you saying you can approach with powershields, because that's legit.

You just said my favorite word. Ever played a Peach that spaces like hell? Her Jab is quick and has range. it's one of the best combo breakers. And you can jab to grab lucas. You can jab to almost anything. Where in the word are you getting this idea from, just what Peach players have you been facing to give you this idea? Her jab to so much stuff. The hell? So yes Jab can get me what I want. Then again this is your opinion and not even knowing Peach like that. So Moving on past post like this......

Don't talk to a lucas player about jabs like they don't know. Our jab is at least as fast as yours, and our game is centered around trapping people into it and other quick, low lag moves.

Now, I don't know why a peach that spaces particularly well would be more menacing than, say, any other character that spaces well. Since you don't elaborate on that point or provide any support for it, I'm gonna assume that the correct answer here is, "If peach is spacing right, she'll never get hit and will always hit the opponent with every one of her moves".

I have news for you. It takes two to space. Every time you're moving to position yourself, I'm moving to make it a bad idea to be where you are. So, in a way, saying that I spaced well in a game is the same as saying that my opponent spaced poorly.

Oh, and Jab to grab doesn't always work. Ankoku's been doing that since melee. It didn't suddenly get better.

I have no clue what in the world you are talking about. Tis is for the people who are going on about PK fire being thier key to victory. PK fire can be dealt with n both air and ground. This is not a toll that you can depend on to get you the win as people are thinking.

People like me? who openly state in multiple threads (including this one) that pk fire is bad? In fact, I have posted in this thread that float is better than fire. I'm not really sure what the second to last and last sentences in that quote even mean. They're kind of incoherent. You missed a word (maybe just a few letters) in the first of the two, and the second one just has too many missing words for me to make sense of it.

Also, it's spelled their. and this.

Additionally, This was in response to a response I had because you decided it was worthwhile to say that you beat some scrubby lucas that thought he could win with PK fire.

What????????????????

Hey, you're the one that decided that I was talking about a number of unrelated aspects of the matchup, and then decided to argue against whatever it is that you thought I was talking about.

Full hops as I said already or powersheild and then move in with a glide toss/ running out and getting close, etc. Done.

I'm sick of you arguing against what you think is my argument. So I'm gonna say this again. I'm NOT saying you don't have an answer. I'm saying you have FEWER options because I'm PK firing.

- Peach can float at a height over that, get close to you and do her thing after.
- Which that turnip Full hop and throw it to snipe you
- Power shield to Glide toss
- Jump over it and toss turnup to air attack.

See how easy that was?

Oh and let me add this, you will still get crak with a turnip of it leaves her hand before it hits her (if it even touches her to begin with.)

Cool. I wanna try this. You know, the thing where I wait for you to do your option and then list the things I can do to beat it.

After your glidetoss turnip starts, I can:
-intercept with an fsmash for 1.5 x turnip damage +14 and possibly lethal knockback
-powershield the turnip, jump out with a dair. I can combo you to death if you're at 80%
-powershield the turnip, jump out with nair, with numerous followup options
-retreating aerial pk fire, comes out way faster than a sh laser from falco, and I can retreat quite far. bolt will light on your turnip, and the pillar will hit you.
-skip the shielding and full hop dair at you.
-hell, if I see you glidetossing at me, I can roll behind you and grab. how embarrassing would that be?

i don't see the problem with PK fire, just walk towards lucas, powershield the stupid PK fire, and force him to the edge where his options are limited....PK fire works as spacing only for so long, when you don't have anymore room you are gonna have to do something else. basically what i see is peach's Ftilt beats pretty much any attack lucas is gonna throw out, if he comes at you with a Nair > jab combo, Ftilt it, if he comes with a Dair, Ftilt it, if he comes with an Ftilt, Ftilt it.

True words. The trick is for the lucas to realize a losing battle before his opponent. PK fire isn't so slow that you can't mix up pk fire retreats with aerial approaches sometimes.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I'm putting those diagrams on my all is brawl page they are amazing.

Levitas, its not so much that I haven't played anyone with the skill to dodge them, (and sorry for this) but I have really good timing and I'm really good at buffering things consistently. Lucas has a real small window to avoid it, I don't think EIDI is practical to be consistently be done on someone who buffers perfectly. It's possible but it still makes them take a lot of hits. I'd say that being able to avoid that dash grab chain grab consistently is saying that the Lucas player has perfect skill.

I'd match that by saying Peach can back air lock Lucas , which is a combo that does about 80% and can result in an upsmash kill. It's a gauranteed combo, it's possible to do, and can be set up. So, Peach beats Lucas really badly because of back air lock. See how it's not right to use things that aren't practical? EIDI will sometimes get you out but honestly, against a buffered chain grab it's not reliable. Do you have any videos of anyone using it in a real TOURNAMENT match and consistently nail it down? As a Ness player I've practiced it and it sometimes works, but it doesn't mean I can do it consistently and I don't consider it a real defense against dash grab chain grabs

By the way Rickedy, THANKS a lot for the Sonic write up. And you guys are free to discuss any matchup you want here, I don't care if its been gone over before. We're here for accuracy and if there's something relevant to be added there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Dark and Levitas' dicussions make my eyes hurt! D=

I think it's because there's too many filler words.

Personally, I think Peach's Glide Toss out weighes Lucas' PK fire because the bolt kind travels slowly and Peach's Glide toss isn'y jsut about forward glide toss. I love glide toss up. I like reverse glide toss, and I like backward glide toss. =3

And I don't know about everyone else, but Peach's godly secondary jump can space right over it like a hurtle.

Ooo Edreeses! I could analysis the individual pokemon for Pokemon Trainer if you want.

 

[ViceGrip]

someone poke me when u guys get around to discussing a competitively legitimate earthbound character ;P

 

[Dark.Pch]

Levitas I am gonna put it like this Cause i'm getting tired or going back and forth with you:

You went on about PK fire, I explained how we can deal with it. And your lil example about how you can deal with the list of options I made. This is when you PK fire man. Pay more attention You can not do all that you said when you do PK fires.

I never once said here that I won't get get. No one goes into a match and not get touched with ANYTHING. You will get hit. my point here is PK fire is not your key to victory. And we can still take it to the skies in this fight, PK in the air or not. Done.

Jab to grab works, thats the point, Done.

This is all about his PK fire, which I said the many ways to deal with it, the others already got on the match up in general and it comes out that we have the advantage over you. 60-40: Peach Done.

 

[Kinzer]

Post.

Just some things to clarify BTW.

Sonic's Uair, has got to be one of the most disjointed in the game, if not the most ranged in its class (...okay, maybe not D3's, but it's still Godly), so if Sonic is doing Uair while he's ascending, you will probably still get star K.O.ed.

Another thing I need to mention is that I'm not sure how disjointed Peach's Bair is, but Soni- ... you know what, fudge it, Peach's comes out faster, she has better aerial mobility, and sticks out moreso than Sonic's. So yeah your Bair > ours.

Anyway I'll be taking my leave, seeing as how we're not really wanted here.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You are wanted =)