Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion - Forever Outdated :(

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RicardoAvocado
#1
As of 19th February 2009, I have recieved control of this match up thread due to Edrees' retirement. I'd like to thank him for the great job he did whilst this was still in his possesion and I hope I can do just as good a job. Any complaints/ideas should be forwarded to me from now on.​



PEACH CHARACTER MATCH-UP THREAD:


WEEK - : -



So I noticed there's like four threads going on where people are discussing various Peach match ups and a lot of the same questions and points are coming across in different places. Us Peach players need a centralized thread to find out tips and discuss these match ups. Also it would be nice to have every character eventually discussed. That's why I'm starting this match-up thread. Each week we'll discuss a different character.

I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THIS QUOTE FROM THE FOX FORUMS:


Anyone still reading up to this point clearly wants to make their fox as good as they can, otherwise they'd've stopped reading long ago dismissing this as something that they cannot understand, or because they already agree with this. To anyone still reading this, to improve yourself, you must first understand your own weakness to learn how to correct it or to minimzie it's effects. Every competitive player realizes this. The same goes for a character's matchups. You have to realize why your character has a disadvantage, so you can try to work around the disadvantageous points and try to get a win out of a situation that's 70-30 against you. Being ignorant of this and assuming your character goes even (or close to) with MK for whatever reasons, is just going to get you owned hard at your next (or more likely, first) (real) tournament; at which point you'll realize that you've been cheating yourself out of a lot of time you could've been improving in

Rules:

-SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EXAMPLES/EVIDENCE/THOUGHT/VIDEO. Do not say "Snake beats Peach" or "Peach owns Wolf" or something out of the blue without explaining why, you are just wasting thread space. Keep intelligent discussion.

-We are here to learn, not fight. We're all trying to become better Peach players, so please don't get into over heated discussions - learn and be be reasonable.

-This thread serves two purposes. A) To determine how the matchup goes for Peach. B) To determine how to handle the matchup. So not only post why you think it goes (see guideline below), but post strategies and what you do that works.

-One character a week, sometimes I might be too busy to update the thread, so it might be two weeks for some. We'll see how it goes.

-Feel free to add really good tactics you discover of a character already discussed. New tactics are helpful and don't think just because its already been discussed not to add anything, or we will never get better information on the matchup as the meta game progresses!

- PLEASE let me know if you want me to highlight anything from the thread discussion into that respective character's "summary" on this page. I'm not always sure whats the best advice and whats not so help point it out to me for me to highlight




Overall Match-ups:

100-0 : Completely Peach's advantage
75-25 : Solidly in Peach's favor
50-50 : Dead even
25-50 : Peach at a solid disadvantage
0-100 : Impossible for Peach

Note: You don't have to follow only these choices. You can do something in between, this is just a guideline (46 to 54 is acceptable for example)


Character Matchups

-Bowser-:bowser2: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 1561 - 1633

What to Watch out For:
-Long range attacks
-One of the heaviest characters in the game
-Very strong attacks
-Good tilts
-Side B which is a grab and can cause Bowsercides!
-Up + B which gives Bowser invinciblity frames when grounded (OoS Fortress)
-Grab release shenanigans

Matchup Mentality:
-Bowser is big and heavy. Get Dair combos in
-Don't be predictable with Floating as Bowser can grab you using an aerial Side B
-Counter aerial approaches such as Fair and Side B with F Tilt or a spaced Fair
-Float just above Bowser's head so he can't hit you with an OoS Fortress when trying to Dair him
-Get him offstage as his recovery isn't great. Toad his Up + B if you find it eating your Turnips
-Space well so Bowser can't grab you. This unfortunetly can mean a lot of Fair use which stales your best kill move
-Don't go agressivly Glide Tossing Turnips at Bowser or you might get an OoS Fortress in your face
-Watch out for Bowser's Up Tilt which is not only very strong but a good anti aerial move
-If you get grabbed by Bowser's Side B, you will be launched towards the way Bowser is facing. Try to force yourself away from the stage boundries as far as possible, avoid platforms and DI diagonally upwards when you land

Did you know?
-If Bowser grabs you, he can grab release you. If you are grab released onto the ground, Bowser can hit you with his jab, F Tilt or just re grab you again. If you are grab released into the air, Bowser can follow up with a Fair. Your best bet is to air release and be prepared to DI when the Fair hits you as you don't want to get infinite grab released on the ground
-If you get grabbed by Bowser's Side B, if you are losing (e.g. you are a stock behind) you can control the direction he goes in the air and where he lands. But, if you and Bowser end up going over the stage, you will go flying down to your doom! Watch out for these Bowsercides as they can result in you losing your matches!
-Bowser's F Smash can bypass Toad completely and hit you with massive knockback if you're too close

Quotes:

Bowser is tougher than he looks. By now, you should have learnt in Brawl that heavies like Bowser are no longer pushovers

Bowser has surprisingly good range and power on his attacks. His tilts have long range and an up angled F Tilt (if you're low enough) and Up Tilt can knock you out of the sky. This makes approaching Bowser on the ground a bi of a pain. His F Smash is horribly strong when all the hits connect and it can even go straight through Toad and hit Peach. Peach's F Tilt clanks with Bowser's F Smash

Bowser also has a surprisingly good aerial game. His Side B can be used in the air and will laglessly cancel into anything if it doesn't connect when he reaches the ground (when used properly). His Fair has long range, his Bair and Uair are both strong and his Dair has multiple hits. Peach's Bair and Bowser's Bair trade hits btw.

There are two things you really really have to watch out for in this match. First off his Bowsers Side B, the Koopa Klaw. We did it a while ago on my thread if anyones interested. It's basically a special kind of grab and a very good anti air move. Once he grabs you, he'll spin in the air and then come crashing down. If you're losing, you can control where he goes in the air. When he lands it is CRUCIAL you DI correctly. Bowsers Side B has enough power to kill Peach who uses bad DI

Then there's Bowsers grab release. He can continually ground grab release Peach. The only way for her to truly escape is to jump release. Unfortunetly, Bowser can follow up with an F Tilt (or another grab) if she ground releases and a Fair if Peach jump releases

I find staying in the air for short bursts at a time works best. Turnip barrages are a key to winning. Fair is very good at defending yourself against Bowser's Fair and aerial Side B. Unfortunetly, this stales her best kill move. Don't be surprised if Bowser stays alive for such a long period of time

Bowser is big and heavy. If you get a Dair in, go for another one and another if you can manage. Bowser has poor recovery as well so gimping him is a good way to KO him...easier said than done though. Bowser's Up + B, which is not only a horribly surprisingly OoS option (and KO move), will cancel Turnips out the majority of the time. Good ledge play is needed here. Toad his recovery if all else fails

I personally think that the match up is somewhere around the 55-45/60-40 area in Peach's favour. Bowser is not to be underestimated
Okay, quick matchup summary coming!



Okay, first of all, you need to avoid Bowser's grab. This is a problem for some characters, but not for you. That's because you are Peach, and you should not be grabbed. If you're not floating in this matchup, then you're doing it wrong. :p

What sort of horrors can Bowser unleash out of his grab? Grab releases. If Bowser grabs Peach and you get a ground release, he can grab you again for more pummel damage and he can even use a Klaw, which will do a sizeable 18%. You fare a little better if you jump out of Bowser's grab with a jump release, but it's still not a very good thing. If you jump out, Bowser can Fair you, which can KO at the ledge. However, you should not be overly scared of this. Remember that you are Peach, and if you're using Peach, you are floating. If you're not floating, you're doing it wrong. :p


Bowser also has a very large shield, which he an use to absorb attacks and counterattack with his OoS options. Large shields are not a problem for you, because you are Peach. If you're not floating and Dairing/Fairing your opponent, you're doing it wrong. :p

Bowser's OoS options are pretty beastly though. His Fortress has invincibility frames and comes out instantly. If you're not floating at head height, which you should be, you'll probably be hit by it. Just make sure you're floating high enough for this to be ineffective. Then again, I think the hitbox might have some vertical disjoint, so I'll test it to see if the Fortress can stop Dairs and such. (probably not, but I mind as well)


Oh, and there's a move that deserves it's own paragraph. The Utilt. Bowser's Utilt is absolutely beastly, and it's one of the most powerful Utilts in the game. It comes out fast, has lots of priority (it will beat all your aerials), and a very bogus hitbox. Did I mention it'll probably kill at 110%? The reason I mention this move is that it's simply too good. It's very hard to predict, and it's one of Bowser's most usable killing moves. Watch out for this, especially if there are platforms around.


Other then that, watch out for the occasional aerial and Bowser's edgeguard shenanigans. Make sure you save your killing moves, otherwise he'll be a nightmare to kill.

So yeah, I would agree on something like 60-40. I might go as far to argue that it's 55-45, but that seems a bit low.
Videos:
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-Captain Falcon-:falcon: 70-30
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What to Watch out For:
-Strong Smash attacks
-Uair has range and priority. Dair spikes
-Bair autocancels very well. Fair (Knee) hurts when sweespotted and can trip
-Side B spikes and Up + B can set up stage spikes
-Good jab, multi hits and racks up damage quickly

Matchup Mentality:
-Overwhelm him with priority
-Watch out for his Uair, he'll try and juggle you as much as he can with this
-Avoid Floating too much as it sets you right up for a Knee
-DI away from his Jab. Watch out for grab to jab tricks
-Nair outprioritizes most of what he can do as does Bair
-Use Turnips if you want to play defensivly, he doesn't have a projectile. Use them to gimp his recovery as well as it doesn't take him very far. Be ready to grab the edge to egdehog him

Did you know?
-Falcon PAWNCH

Quotes:

I think i've 3 stocked every falcon player I've ever faced in tourney,in at least in one of our matches. And these aren't bad falcon players, these are falcons who were beating other good players. This is probably Peach's easiest match up. It's HEAVILY, HEAVILY in her favor. I'd say 70-30 in Peach's favor.

This is mostly for 3 reasons.

-Falcon's weight is perfect for Peach combos. Even with smash DI it's hard for him toe scape dair, and you can chain grab him for a lot and finish it with several moves like up tilt up air or even f-smash at some percents (which combos into something else)

-Edgeguarding: It's very easy to control his recovery. Just throw a turnip where you DONT want him recovering and then follow his recovery and attack it. Or edgehog if the turnip hits.

-Peach's moves pretty much all have priority over all of his moves. You can n-air spam to avoid almost ANY string of consecutive hits he can try to muster on you.

If you just stand there and back air any of his apprpoaches, he really can't approach you. Just jump and back air and retreat while you do it, it's a wall of defense he can't really break. But actually you want to play aggressive in this matchup (rare in brawl) because he's going to get overwhelmed by your priority. The closer you are and the more you rush him the better.
K

when Niko and I were in our Prime of Brawl we played this match-up ALOT

I'm pretty much the best and most consistant placing Falcon to date. Never got first though. Wreck MKs like there nothing.

I know what I'm talking about.


Anyways I conclude that this match-up is 70:30

reason is because Dair combo's Falcon who is still considered a fast faller REALLY well. Her Nair as an edgeguard is pretty **** and her Z-drop turnip to Dair is way too good. This isn't to say Falcon can't win this match-up but it requires Falcon to keep peach in the air.

Falcon can easily win if he always has peach in the air, her AD sucks and Uair cuts through her bloody Dair. Also floating as an approach is not very effective against Falcon......if Falcon is fast enough he WILL knee you. His AC knee sweetspots against a floating peach........ if you're leading into a float then it's fine, but remember that there is a risk.

But Peach players know that Peach is weak in the air so they avoid this at all costs.

Watch out for jabs.........they can stop you in your tracks..........pretty much Falcon's best move
Videos:
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-Charizard-:charizard: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 1718 - 1760

What to Watch out For:
-Side B (Rock Smash). Huge damage, huge killing power, good priority and has Super Armour frames
-Good grab range
-Decent range
-Strong smash attacks
-Gliding
-Flamethrower (Neutral B)

Matchup Mentality:
-Avoid Rock Smash like the plague. Don't go charging head on into it or you'll get destroyed
-Punish the ending lag on Charizard's moves
-Gimp his recovery, he doesn't have many options. Watch out for Rock Smash and his Up + B, both of which have super armour frames
-Toad his Glide Attack or get below/behind him and hit him out of it
-Use fast attacks
-DI away from his Flamethrower. Toad him if he's being persistant on using it

Did you know?
-Charizard's Fair has no knockback or hitstun unless he's close to you. It sends you at a downwards angle as well so be careful when recovering
-Like all of Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, Charizard suffers from fatigue. Whenever a fresh Pokémon is sent in, the Pokémon will have exactly 2:00 minutes until they become tired and fatigued. Whenever the Pokémon performs a Smash Attack, Aerial Attack, Special Move, or Tilt Attacks, exactly 0:01 second will be removed from the Pokemon’s current 2:00 timer. Running, Walking, Jumping, and Throwing has no effect on the timer. Fatigue reduces the attack power and knockback of moves

Quotes:

Rock Smash destroys everything you do. It even destroys MK's tornado. Charizard WILL use Rock Smash. There is no exception. Its priority and power (could do 44%+ in one move) will ensure its use. A Charizards bair, fair (and IIRC nair, and uair) can all be short hopped with no landing lag and thus a Rock Smash will often be waiting for you at the end of these moves. Approach with care. You will more then likely die at stupidly low percentages if you get hit by his head during Rock Smash, so don't get hit. Rock smash weakness is it's bad ending lag so try to punish it frequently.

His usmash is also very good. It's speed and relatively far range of the first hitbox makes it great for follow ups especially after a Rock Smash. It's possible to DI out of his usmash by smash DI'ing towards him after the first hit.

He has melee marth's grab range so expect lots of shield grabbing. His Dthrow can kill (only at mid to high percentages though.)

Most of charizards good moves have noticeable ending lag, so punish away!..carefully (I.E. watch for sudden rocks lol.) Charizard has very little recovery options. Seriously, the best he can do is to either glide or rock smash on the way down. Take immediate advantage of this weakness and edgeguard the living daylight out of him. Overall Charizard hates pressure and doesn't like to be punished. His size doesn't help mich either.

Another thing about Charizard is that his fair has melee sheiks knockback (IMO). Only the initial hit within the wings and one of the ending hits will cause the knockback. All other hits in between has no priority and will cause little to no hit stun.
Charizard - You gottta be careful when approaching, he is hard to approach. I suggest using a lot of moves that come out quick. Jab to grabs are really good, downsmash is a good shieldpoke. Treat him like you treat DK with all those megazords of heavy/super armor attacks.
Videos:
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-Diddy Kong-:diddy: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 412 - 456

What to Watch out For:
-Banana combos (Trip to dash attack, trip to grab, trip to forward smash)
-His UP B can spike you so be careful if under him
-Peanut gun is deceptively useful against your approaches
-He's very quick
-Glide tossing, other bananas trixies

Matchup Mentality:
-Catch and use bananas to your advantage
-If you see diddy trip or know he's going to, use peach bomber to tech chase.
-Down air is still really good but you need to have the timing down well on Diddy to chain 'em
-Edgeguard him and gimp him if you can. Neutral air is good to override his recovery priorities
-Be creative, don't follow usual Peach patterns. diddy isn't too versatile so you should be able to create a playstyle to work around him

Did you know?
-You won't trip on a banana while ground floating
-Use an aerial while ground floating over a banana, then let go of float and you'll catch the banana
-Reverse glide toss (throw down though) is a good way of retreating, dropping a banana and having him trip on it

Quotes:

You can definitely space your glide toss to get him with a sweet spotted racket. It's actually as easy to find as just standing in front of Diddy and rolling back. If you glide toss properly, you have a 50% chance of sweetspotting if you've used your frying pan. I just tested it and Peach can definitely fsmash before Diddy can react. A frying pan will not hit if you're in racket sweet spot range.

ALSO, and this one is good. Peach can pick up bananas with NO LAG with an auto-floated auto-cancelled aerial. So, instead of grabbing a turnip on the ground with a dash attack, you can run, auto-float, and immediately fall out of it with a dair or fair and you get no lag. Even if it's Diddy's banana on the ground, it won't trip you if you're floating.

More random throwing information... Peach throws bananas one character space farther than she throws turnips. Standing in the middle of FD, a grounded smash throw will land right in front of a Diddy standing on the edge (bad idea), and a banana thrown at the top of her full hop or timed double jump will hit him.
To me this match is not as simple as it may sound. You need a mix of Both air and ground game. Your air game is recommened a lil more.

Bananas can screw up your Ground game, which forces you in the air. But in the air diddy can take you down easy with his spaced moves or a banana itself. While Peach is a god in the air, that also comes with a price.

- You are slow in the air.
- You are a sitting duck You cant attack quickly from the front or back over and over unlike from below or above Peach
- If you dont space in the air, you are easy to punish. even if you try to Fair to jab

Diddy is Faster than you are. so a mix of that speed and banana tricks make it hard to kill him. So I limit the use of turnips here. If he is all over you and has bananas going around it will be hard to get one out unless you guys are far from each other. Use his bannas against him and even glide toss them. when there is one near you, always grab it. And to even screw up his banana set up, fight in the air holding one. So for the limited turnips you can pull in this fight, you have his bananas. It's a good trade.

The common thing diddys will do is Banana>grab or Banana>dash attack. Also the #1 way to get a banana for diddy is dash attack. So if there is a banana in front of him, expect him to dash attack it. You can set him up with a clean Fsmash/Ftilt or jab. These are quick/good ways to abuse him with in the dash attack.

Diddys Jump kick (or w/e that move is called, goes through most of your attacks. ( I think all of them from what my friend NinjaLink was doing to me) Dont even try and toad that move. it does not work. Every time I tried, diddy went through it and I was left a sitting duck. You can toad his bananas but I do this with care. If he baits you to toad, you will eat a banana>grab/attack and it can do some serious damage to you.
Videos:

Dark Peach (losing) vs Ninja Link (winning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u4kU06kpb8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMV0lBxOYQc

Dark peach (winning) vs Ninja Link (Losing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XBXxm2VQcU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjwJmlOTbPE
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Donkey Kong:dk2: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 924-1019

What to Watch out For:
-Great range on back airs
-Donkey Punch super armor
-Cargo grab stage spike
-Insane ground game
-Three different spikes (down air, forward b, and forward air)
-Smashes with high range and KO power

Matchup Mentality:

-DK's strongest on the ground, that's where he wants you, and he will use his decent aerial game (back air is good but forward air..only when he can predict and space)
-Want to play defensive while you find a way in (usually through the air) then do damage-racking combos
-Forward smash is very good against him
-Land upsmashes as he lands or air dodges. He's a big target so you can land these. You will need him because its reallyy hard to KO him with other moves. Duck and upsmash may work sometimes.
-Can camp and play well defensively on stages with platform cover like Yoshi's Island

Did you know?

-His DK punch has super armor, you cannot knock him out of it though he will take damage. this is dangerous, and he will gladly sacrifice the damage to kill you at like 75%
-His up B is really hard to edgeguard but you can down air out of it if spaced just right
-his back air will cancel out your turnips
-9 winds on his DK punch is stronger than fully charged
-Luigi's mansion isn't that bad, don't waste a ban on it....he's great on levels with water because of free spikes. Lylat cruise is a good stage for him too.
-Press L right as he releases you to tech his back throw stage spike.

Quotes:
I play this match a LOT.

I recommend turnip to float dairs, and don't ever land next to DK ever, float away or combo him or anything but don't even land next to him.

Also don't worry about damage, just try not to get hit and let the damage rack up on DK. Keep doing dairs if you're unsure what to do. He'll die eventually, so just let the damage rack up.

Also, camping is limited since he can just walk @ you and block turnips slowly and when he gets close just put hitboxes on you via dtilt, down B, etc. Don't get pinned.... float dair your way out.

float so your dair tip is DK's head height, all he can hit you with at that height is bair and you can avoid it easily.
Peach is great against DK on yoshi's (I agree) but I know why. It's because the platform prevents any real approach for him if you decide to spam turnips and space yourself away. He cannot take the air to go around them and it makes it easy to camp him real bad on that stage. I suggest doing this til he gets pissed off and loses patience, then going in and being a bit aggressive when he doesn't expect it.

Also, if he shields your down air, I suggest you slightly float away right after doing it. If he tries to up tilt, you can nail him with a forward air. Or what you can do is neutral air right after that down air and if he tried to up tilt he'll get hit by the neutral air. If he continued to shield the neutral air do jab after the neutral air, then if he shielded the jab, try to grab him.

It is definitely hard to kill him but I always seem to manage to do it with up airs. For some strange reason I find them real easy to land on DK, at least in my experiences.
Dk is a interesting fight for peach. at first glance it would appear that dk just can dish back whatever peach may have due to his rapetastic hitboxes and quick and hard hitting smashes. i personally think that dk is a much faster version of ike with almost (or maybe just as much) killing power.

But once you look alittle deeper with this particular match up it is probably in peaches favor. her options with glide tossing and just turnips in general are invaluable in this match up. cause you have something dk doesnt have, and that is a range game. a sub par one but hey atleast you got it.

now for things to look out for.

-Dk's Smashes: these things are crazy fast and strong, most notably his dsmash and usmash. they have HUGE hitboxes and disgusting killing power, and if ur not careful can clip u right out of the air. but most of ur aerials are faster then dks smashes, but still its sumthing to watch out for. His Fsmash is alittle less of a threat, cause it has some start up lag to it. but if it hits it can kill peach at around 60% ish or lower i think.

-DK Punch: one of dk's SA moves. i think its the 17th frame that the SA initates and... frankly thats not alot of time to counter act againt him, so if u see him do it, eather grab/toad/shield/roll away IMMEDIATELY, use a slower move or what not and ur gonna be sent flying. but heres sumthing interesting, if dk uses dk punch in the air he will be sent into a helpless state. not sure if they would ever use it in the air but its something to keep in mind tho

Dks Spikes: He has 3 of them and his dair is the best of them and the one u should watch out for. if ur recovering from under the stage, u may have ur dk opponent jumping off to send u crashing down and Up B does not beat dk's Dair, the hits will trade and dk will get a little dinky hit while peach gets acquainted with the bottom blast box.

Cargo Spiking: Probably the biggest threat for peach against a dk, if a dk feels inclined to quickly change the flow of the match and possibly turn it around in his favor, he would probably do this. he will fthrow u, jump off the stage and toss u towards the ledge and stage spike u, and it works at any percent i think. so be really careful if he is near the ledge and grab happy
Videos:

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-Falco-:falco: 40-60
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Rediscussion (Old): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226354

Discussion: Posts 327-412

What to Watch out For:
-Lasers. Lots and lots of lasers
-Extended reflector
-D Throw and follow ups
-Fast, high priority Jab
-Good Bair, multi hit Nair and Uair with a strong 2nd hit
-Side B that spikes you when you're airborne

Matchup Mentality:
-Falco's lasers are a huge hassle to get around. Unlike many projectiles, attacks will NOT cancel them out. Therefore, the only way to avoid them is to actually avoid them or block them. Be patient, work your way around the lasers. Powershielding is by far the best method to safely deal with lasers but normal shielding will work just as well. Lasers are fast, you may not be able to powershield the lasers. You can duck underneath the lasers if Falco fires them high enough but you can't move whilst crouching which doesn't really get you anywhere. Spotdodging means that you stand in one spot and rolling leads you vunerable to Falco's follow ups or another laser. Airdodging past lasers requires care due to how little of invincibilty Peach has on her air. The reason lasers are such an irritating part of the match up is because all of these methods can be used to get past Falco's lasers but all have their drawbacks. Choose wisely
-Dash attack is an excellent move in this match up. Falco has significant ending lag when firing lasers whilst grounded so most Falco will short hop and fire two lasers at a time in the air so as to avoid this ending lag. Dash attack, especially the 2nd hit, will hit Falco out of his short hopped lasers whilst Peach effectivly runs underneath Falco's lasers. You can also do this with Turnips if you have one
-Falco's reflector is thrown out in front of him unlike the other space animal's reflectors which gives it reach. Falco can reflect your Turnips even from behind when the reflector has returned back to Falco. The reflector will send any Turnips you throw back at you for the whole duration that it is out which makes it very difficult to get a Turnip in when Falco is using his reflector. You may want to Z drop the Turnip and simply Fair Falco
-Be careful with your aerials. Lasers go through them and Falco's Bair has a lot of priority and is much faster than your Fair. Use Dash attack/F Tilt/F Smash to combat Falco's aerials or an OoS glide tossed Turnip if you have managed to pull one up
-Falco's Up + B doesn't send Falco very far and has noticable start up time so Falco will try and use his Side B to recover. You should always take the chance to punish his Side B as it sends him completely horizontal. If he goes for the ledge, edgeguard him. If Falco goes for on stage, punish him. If you're good at reading where he's going, you could ground Float and Nair him as he zooms into you or even charge an Up Smash and time it so that you hit him with charged sweetspot as he zooms past. If you have a Turnip, throw it with the intention to gimp Falco. If it hits, you force him to use his Up + B allowing you to edgeguard him. If it misses, you still have time to punish whatever he chooses to do. The Turnip provides another obstacle for Falco to avoid. Be very careful of going offstage to gimp Falco as his Side B is a fairly strong spike
-Nair is a multi hit move, do your best to DI up out of it. Falco's Jab is quick and very good at interuptting moves up close. Falco will either do a one jab hit and normally follow up with a grab or Jab combo you. If he single jabs you, DI away and be prepared to avoid the grab or hit Falco. If he Jab comboes you, DI up and behind you and Bair him

Did you know?
-Falco cannot chaingrab Peach unless buffered at 0 percent and he can only get about 3 grabs max. If Falco D Throws you and goes for another grab, Nair him. Falco can however follow up with other moves such as Up Smash after his D Throw
-Falco has a long DACUS and is one of the few characters who can Up Smash after his Dash attack connects

Quotes:


Videos:
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-Fox-:fox: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts 1454-1499

What to Watch out For:

-Fast ground speed
-Fast laser
-Dair to Up Tilt/Up Smash combos
-Strong Smash attacks (very strong Up Smash)
-Reflector

Matchup Mentality:

-Don't Glide Toss Turnips right into Fox's Reflector. Don't Toad his reflector
-Up Tilt Fox out of his Dair's and F Tilt Fox out of his aerials
-You can punish Up Tilt juggles by using Nair
-Bair outprioritizes Fox's aerials or will at least trade hits
-Dair works well on Fox
-At higher percents, watch out for Fox's very strong Up Smash. Time and place your Floating attacks carefully

Did you know?

-Peach has a chaingrab on Fox by using her D Throw, turning around and re grabbing Fox. She can get Fox from 0% to 26% using this chaingrab and finish off with an F Tilt
-Fox's Reflector when used in the air will cause Fox is slow down a lot. Watch out for him using this to bait your attacks and slow his falling speed
-You can Nair or even Up Smash Fox out of his Side B

Quotes:

Pros

- Peach can chain grab Fox to about.. 35? (maybe more) before doing Using the Ftilt, and chasing the air dodge with another grab. aka The easy 50%
- Fox can be triple Dair'd > Uair
- Peach can out camp fox
- Nair beats fox's FowardB
- Fox's UpB is slow and predictable so you can toad it.
- Turnips **** his recovery
- Peach can float away from Fox's Utilt spam
- Fair will out range all of Fox's moves (this does not mean try to challenge Usmash.. you will lose)

Cons

- Fox's Usmash is extremely effective and can kill peach somewhere in the 80s on most stages.
- Powerful aerials. a smart fox will learn to bait you into over using float approach.
- Peach can be shine-locked against a wall. and shined down the wall on Yoshi's Island.
What it breaks down to is that both characters will get each other to very high percents to get a kill. Fox's upsmash will be VERY hard to land on Peach because she will dair if you approach her float. Like Gea said you can float out of it's range but if he tries it and misses down air has enough range to get him for it. Also, Peach's back our outprioritizes any of Fox's aerials, at the very least trading hits with it if Fox spaces right and Peach spaces wrong. What Fox can do in this matchup is play really defensively with lasers and run away and play defensive, and throw hits in when she's showing openings because of these lasers. This makes the matchup closer and attainable for Fox, but if he plays aggressive he's going to get crushed by Peach's priority. I like to just shield to neutral air the drill - you have enough time before he can follow up, even if he mixes it up and tries a grab after the drill (what a smart fox may try if you keep shielding drill to up tilt). Fox can have a chance with Peach in the air but he must space those back airs realllly well in the air. Fox can land many grabs on Peach due to his speed so that helps him for damage, but he won't get any follow up attacks (besides more damage with lasers) out of it.

Peach has a very strong Gimp on fox. Down air. If you down air fox during his up b but do not execute the final hit of down air, he will just fall down wards. You simply need to do this once or twice to get him under the stage enough for an edgehog. It's a really, really effective tactic forcing Fox to always side B. Which forward smash outprioritzes (and if you space yourself right, just shield it and upsmash out of shield, it's a way for Peach to get a good early kill in ) I know the matchup insanely well as I have played and defeated Champ, Uchiha and Gamble . Peach definitely has some solid advantage.
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-Ganondorf-:ganondorf: 70-30
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What to Watch out For:
-Very powerful moves. Dash attack can kill you fresh at around 90%
-Up Smash has deceptive range
-Dair is a very powerful spike
-Side B when used in the air will send you and Ganondorf straight down

Matchup Mentality:
-Turnips, Dair, the usual for damage racking
-Gimp his recovery
-OoS attacks are good in this match
-Camp him. He's slow and has no projectile

Did you know?
-Ganondorf's Side B can actually be used to suicide both of you if he grabs you in the air. Depending on your controller port, this can make you lose if you're both on your last stock
-You can Nair Ganondorf when he releases you from his Up + B

Quotes:

Videos:
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-Ice Climbers-:popo: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts 1188 - 1274

What to Watch out For:

-Infinite chain grabs
-Quick and high priority side B (spinning hammer thing)
-Desynched strategies ; such as blizzards
-Strong smashes can kill very early

Matchup Mentality:

-Avoid getting grabbed at all costs. DO NOT RUSH IN without thinking about how you will approach without risking getting grabbed.
-Strategies to avoid grabs include high use of turnips, staying higher in the air and down airing using the tip of her feet, killing Nana as fast as you can, wiggling extreme amounts when you do get grabbed, downsmashing if you are ever close to them on the ground but behind them, spacing properly as well as baiting by appearing in grab range, and extended use of attacking nana to mess up their positioning and timing
-SPECIAL ATTENTION TO HOW TO AVOID GRABS: JAB A LOT IF YOU ARE CLOSE. This jab is so fast and will save you alot!!! Do first jab then grab or jump and down air.
-DO NOT THINK THIS MATCHUP IS JUST LIKE IT WAS IN MELEE although the floating idea is the same
-WAIT for blizzard to decrease/waste up energy then approach.
-Z dropping turnips work well too
-FOCUS ON killing nana early while shes recovering. this is KEY.

Did you know?

-IC is pretty vulernable when sweet spotting the ledge with Up B. Nana grabs the ledge then popo swings himself up later. You have a gimping window to attack popo before he jumps up. Not common but possible.
-IC has several mini ledges he can use to more easily infinite/grab you like on rainbow cruise and delfino. It may be risky to pick these stages.

Quotes:

I love to play against ICs too. If one of your D-airs happens to shield poke one of them, you can immediately follow up with a n-air and pick nana/popo off quite easily. Iirc, if they see you coming from above and decide to down-b, it'll knock you upwards and the only time you should be wary of them landing a grab is if they're desynched as to have nana using down-b while popo is free to smash you to the ground with a f-air or something. If that happens, try not to roll away, its quite a typical reaction and most often then not, they will call it. If you find yourself somewhat close to them on the ground, d-smash, that move is godly in this matchup. Unless both of their shields are full, it almost always shield pokes one of them and launches them away. SH d-air ->d-smash approaches work amazingly well too. And of course, turnips are really useful as an approaching tool, like mr.reese stated~ The ICs don't particularly strike me as a hard matchup for Peach~
If the ICs player is good and he blocks the first dair, he can hit you oos, so just back up your float and retry for a shield stab. also, a good ICs has already learned to powershield everything to grab efficiently, so always space attacks as far out in front of you as possible, or land behind. **** nana whenever possible. when nana is recovering, the AI automatically makes her shoot iceblocks which is kinda annoying when you're engaging the actual player
Okay here's my take on the matchup;

DO NOT under estimate IC just because you can separate them well with D-air and because Peach countered them in Melee. Peach does NOT counter IC in Brawl. I believe it's 60:40 Peach at best. You have to really be careful because IC has a lot more tricks to avoid Peach's floating approaches than he did before. Alternating de-syched blizzards are a real mess, it prevents you from just haphazardly approaching.

To approach I suggest being cautious and waiting for the blizzard and throwing a turnip to knock one of the climbers out of their de-synched blizzards. Once you do that you can approach the down air, but if the blizzard is in the way you have to WAIT til it gets weaker/smaller before approaching. It will get you caught.

IC up b move also has ridiculous priority and is toughhh to punish after wards if he starts retreating. Many times he will use them to get out of a situaiton where he's about to be attacked, kind of like how Peach uses her downsmash. It's annoying and if you try to punish it too hard you will get grabbed or punished yourself.

Stay weary and watch out for tactics that use blizzard or ice blocks well, it really can mess up your approach. Throw lots of turnips upwards to save yourself if you get grabbed, and use that down air to separate them. Edgeguard nana by floating out there and forward airing her (or neutral air if you aren't in a position to time it). Stay far enough where Popo cannot reach you. You gotta find that sweetspot where nana will go before using her UP b.

Once you get grabbed you would lose a stock against a really good IC player - Peach isn't that hard to CG, its one of the moderate timings (not hard not easy) I believe. Just this alone, being able to take that stock back from a grab. gives IC a fighting chance and prevents it from being a Peach counter, and makes it simple Peach advantage.

60-40 Peach don't under estimate 'em just because its 80-20 in melee.
If you think you know how to play against ICs in Brawl with Peach because you knew how to play against them in Melee, you will lose to good ICs in Brawl.

I've actually learned that P bthrow -> N fthrow is really easy on Peach.

I disagree that the ICs' grabs are the only thing that prevents Peach from being an ICs' counter. The ICs are generally pretty good at keeping Peach at bay with blizzard, squall hammer, and, to a lesser extent, nair, and they can KO fine with usmash and fsmash. CGs are nice, but Peach wouldn't counter the ICs without them. I think this match-up is very close to even.
Videos:
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-Ike-:ike: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts xxxx - xxxx

What to Watch out For:
-Huge range on all attacks
-Immense kill power
-A Counter and Neutral B (Eruption) with SA frames
-Jabs and jab cancelling
-Nair and Bair autocancel

Matchup Mentality:
-Turnips. Ike doesn't have a projectile. Use lots of Turnips. Make good use of aerial and ground Turnips
-Don't predictably Float. Ike has very long range aerials (mainly his Fair) and can knock you out of the sky very easily
-DI away from Ike's jab. If he grabs you and tries to trick you into taking more damage by grab releasing and jabbing you, spam your jab back as it's faster
-Toad is very useful in this match. Don't be predictable though as you can be punished harshly
-If Ike doesn't reverse his Aether (Up + B) you can use Toad to counter it and hit him with spores as he comes up
-Ike can kill you really early if you aren't careful. Don't get predictable and keep your cool

Did you know?
-Ike's Eruption has SA frames just as pulls his sword up and then drives it into the ground. Be careful he doesn't bait you into getting hit by a partially charged version and activating it so the SA frames negate your attack
-To counter Ike's Aether when he is using it to recover, you have to use Toad right before he throws his sword up. That way, the spores will come out when Ike is level with you and thus hitting him away

Quotes:

Jumping forward, then using your double jump to float backwards completely destroys Ike. It's one of those Niko advanced techniques he had in his thread but in the air. Basically you are jumping forward at him and the momentum of your second jump is used to go into your float. It's good because Ike's like to jump backwards and aerial or double jump backwards and aerial anytime you approach to get you for it and this punishes him for that. IMO it's 55-45 or 60-40 to Peach. Reverse glide toss camping is pretty effective too.
ike vs peach is weird. usually ike loses when he can't attack his opponent. peach is no exception to this, but she does it differently than shielding and spamming. peach essentially wants to attack all the freaking time with float aerials because she can attack faster by layering attacks than ike can outright. In essence, Ike never gets to start his attacks, as he will get stunned out of their start-up time. Since Peach won't be in front of ike, his jabs/grabs (fastest attacks) are heavily nullified.

on the flip side, peach has extremely minimal defense vs ike's longe range, and her poor air dodge and falling speed make her a hideous victim to falling upair (she literally can't avoid it).

so why do I put this match @ 55/45? The primary reason is that in most cases, peach doesn't have to challenge ike's attacks to land. She can simply fall away from ike and off the stage and up B to the edge with almost no risk at all. ike is also not that heavy compared to what most people expect, so peach won't have a difficult time killing him around 150% ish, where ike will be unable to kill peach until a higher % unless she clearly messes up and basically let's ike hit her, since she can choose not to let ike attack via her own attacks. in essence, peach *should* outlive ike through smart aggression.
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-Ivysaur-:ivysaur: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 1718 - 1760

What to Watch out For:
-Projectile (Razor Leaf)
-Bullet Seed to rack up damage. Bullet seed has invincibilty frames on frames 1-3
-Anti air game, including a long range Bair
-Powerful Uair and Up Smash
-Tether recovery

Matchup Mentality:
-OoS Turnip attacks are good vs Ivysaur
-Get Dairs in. Bait Bullet Seed
-Perfect Shield the Razor Leaf. Bair will eat it as well
-GIMP IVYSAUR! Knock Ivysaur away from the edge via Turnip gimping for example, then grab the ledge for an edgehog. Watch out that Ivysaur's Up + B doesn't stage spike you

Did you know?
-The Ivysaur in Brawl is a female
-Like all of Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, Ivysaur suffers from fatigue. Whenever a fresh Pokémon is sent in, the Pokémon will have exactly 2:00 minutes until they become tired and fatigued. Whenever the Pokémon performs a Smash Attack, Aerial Attack, Special Move, or Tilt Attacks, exactly 0:01 second will be removed from the Pokemon’s current 2:00 timer. Running, Walking, Jumping, and Throwing has no effect on the timer. Fatigue reduces the attack power and knockback of moves

Quotes:

Ivysaur - Already went through this one. Space your down airs properly so bullet seed doesn't come out to break them. Shield an attack--> turnip game is very good here.
Not as bad as everyone makes it seem. Ivysaur does best at Midrange. Basically if you can't hit her with your second Jab, quickly roll away. DON'T roll towards her as you put yourself at risk of rolling right into a fsmash or a badly timed bullet seed. Speaking of bullet seed, did you know that Bullet Seeds initial hitbox (a small quake like feature (or the leaves?)) will only function unless the opponent is firmly on the ground? (*Much like Charizards Dsmash.) DI towards him if you get hit by the initial hitbox to avoid the seeds. Some common bullet seed setups include: FFCancelled Nair to Bullet Seed, Spot dodge to Bullet seed, and if you have bad DI, dthrow to Bullet Seed.

Like GaW, If Ivysaurs back is turned at anytime, expect a bair.

Ivysaur does the worst at the edges of the stage (because of fear of getting gimped) just pressure her and knock her off. Throw a turnip to keep her off. Remember, Ivysaur will try to Razor Leaf you off the ledge in order to secure a tether.

Once your invincibility frames are up, with proper aerial spacing, Ivysaur will try a last ditch attempt to knock you off the ledge with vine whip. A sweet spotted vine whip will more then likely stage spike you causing you to lose a stock before Ivysaur does which in turn wins games. (I LOVE doing this btw lol.)
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-Jigglypuff-:jigglypuff: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 2195 - xxxx

What to Watch out For:
-Multiple jumps. Very good recovery
-Side B (Pound). Enhances Jigglypuff's recovery and has incredibly priority
-Excellent aerial mobilty
-Good aerials
-Very strong Down + B (Rest). Can kill very early when it connects
-Roll out which is also used for recovery

Matchup Mentality:
-Avoid trying to take Jigglypuff head on in the air
-Watch out for Pound. It has insane priority
-Make good use of Peach's anti air ground game
-Use Toad if Jigglypuff gets predictable
-If Jigglypuff uses Rollout, it's a free chance to get a Floating Dair in. Never Toad it
-You can OoS Up Smash Jigglypuff if she gets careless with her spacing or Pounds right into your shield

Did you know?
-You can't fall asleep when Floating
-If Jigglypuff's shield breaks, instead of being sent up and then back down onto the ground to continue the stunned animation, Jigglypuff goes sky high vertically, which will cause her to self-destruct if there is no ceiling abover her. This may have something to do with her being a Balloon Pokémon
-The Jigglypuff in Brawl is actually the Shiny version of Jigglypuff, as it has green eyes unlike the ordinary version which has blue eyes

Quotes:

Jigglypuff is much harder than she looks despite her nerfs from her transition to Brawl from Melee. WoP is still good, Rest still kills fairly early, and she has a fantastic recovery.

Our ground game pretty much dominates hers, Jab to Ftilt is probably one of out best killers here due to her being so light. KOing with Peach isnt as much of a problem as it is with other characters (Snake, Dedede). At the start of the match most Peach's like to Dair into Uair or Nair and follow up. Dair isnt nearly as effective against Jigglypuff because she can DI out of it very well and punish with an aerial, Rest, etc. Jigglypuff's superior aerial movement allows her to space attacks fairly easy, most Jigglypuff's will be throwing out Bairs at you by weaving in and out. Pound is a pretty good way to deal with Peach's float because of it's annoying priority. WATCH OUT for Dair to Rest combo! This is a true combo in Brawl, but in order for it to work Jigglypuff must land her Dair in a certain way so you trip. When you're percent is over 75% watch out for this and keep your eyes opened for it. Also, be cautious when you're on the ledge, Jigglypuff can Sing cancel on the ledge and put you to sleep if you're in range and land land a free Rest on you. Her smash attacks are actually pretty strong because they'll be super fresh throughout the match since most Jigglypuff users stick to her aerial game, her Dsmash sends opponents at a very downward angle but Peach shouldn't fear this too much because of her good horizontal recovery. Dont be afraid of her tilts except maybe Utilt since it KOs pretty early, and her dash attack. Her dash attack has deceptively nice knockback to it and can kill if you're close to the edge. When recovering be wise, Jigglypuff can WoP us and make it back to the stage with Pound. Fortunately for us Parasol works wonders here, since it's pretty fast and has hitboxes all over her body. However you're pretty vulnerable when you drift back to the stage. For stages her best is Jungle Japes as is ours, so it could be pretty even there. I'd suggest GreenGreens or maybe any other stages with relatively small blast zones, ALSO be very careful if you're on stages like Delfino where there's water. Jigglypuff can use Rest and she'll wake up right when she touches the water.


Jigglypuff
What to watch out for:
  • Dair > Rest combo (can sheild if you dont trip)
  • WoP off and on stage
  • Rest on stages with water (Delfino Plaza)
  • Fair (MAJOR killer)
  • DACUS
  • Fsmash and Dash attack is a great killer
  • Her superior aerial movement allows her to space attacks nicely
  • Good recovery
  • Rollout!! This move DOES NOT need to be fully charged to kill!

Bans:
  • Jungle Japes possibly
  • Delfino Plaza
  • Norfair
  • Stages with lots of water

Counterpicks:
  • Green Greens
  • Almost any stage with small blast zones

Misc:
  • Rest comes out on frame 2
  • Jigglypuff can DI multihit attacks fairly well and use Rest
  • Her Dair has slight disjointed range in the front of the kicks
  • Can use aerial movement, Rollout, and Pound to recover
  • Rising Pound can be used to aid in recovery, it gives her a slight boost upwards, can also use falling Pound
  • When landing Rest a flower appears on your head giving continous damage (max damage of Rest is 45%)

What to do:
  • Use lots of Turnips
  • Try to space with Fair
  • Be observant of what Jigglypuff is doing
THIS!! i'm glad that you posted because i really didn't feel like writing an essay about this match up. i wouldn't say it's in jigg's favor because defensive style peach user's will **** puff.

reason: in order to put on ANY damage, jigglypuff must use one of her physical, low range attacks. and with Jigglypuff being a primarily aerial character, Usmash out of sheild destroys Puff at the most embarrassing percentages.

jigg's air battle game makes turnip camping a bit difficult. (she will usually catch turnips w/o trying)

Basically, Peach just has to remain on the ground to win this matchup. Even Puff's spaced bairs are punishable w/ Dash attach out of shield.

50:50 match up. quite possibly 55-45 Peach's Favor. (P.S. i know the match up from both sides :colorful:)
Videos:
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-King Dedede-:dedede: 45-55
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Discussion: Posts 139 - 187

What to Watch out For:
-Large Hitboxes, Great ability to edgeguard
-Up tilt low percentage kills
-His forward B can throw a gordo and kill you at real low percent
-Suicide kills, suck you up and you're dead.
-Chain grabs and insane grab range

Matchup Mentality:
-Pick your spots, his hitboxes are good and can keep you from getting in
-Don't over rush him, he can punish ya and is faster than you expect
-Combo the hell out of him once you are in.
-Poke through his shield, his body is fat. Downsmash can do this for example.

Did you know?
-Throw a turnip and if he does his suck in move he'll eat it instead.
-F-air and b-air's ranges extend way beyond the moves visible range
-You can SMASH DI out of the electricity on the Waddle-Doo's/Dee's

Quotes:


Peach Attacking Dedede:

It's full of spamming turnips and well played Dairs and Fairs. It's always dangerous for peach to approach from the air because if your around 80%, an Up-Tilt from Dedede will kill peach, So I would suggest never trying to approach Dedede from directly above his head; However staying in the air with peach is always a good thing, fairing at Dedede from a decent range stops him from shield grabbing Peach. Remember, if peach is grabbed shes taking about 20-30%plus a possible tech chase off-stage to dying.

Dedede Attacking Peach:
Dedede relies heavy on his grab game, this is true and everybody knows and understands this, however Dedede also has his Bair and Up-Tilt which will make the match up much harder then any Peach would want it to be. I believe Dedede's Bair beats everything peach has besides her fair, but Dedede's Bair is much quicker then Peach's fair. A well placed Up-Tilt can end a Peach at 80% which is pretty good considering this is brawl and everybody lives long.

Pretty much its a tough match for Peach but I would actually think of it as an even match up considering Dedede's grab game is important and Peach is one of the ( If not ) hardest characters to grab, not to mention her overall movement can be too much for Dedede. I really think the only way to fight Dedede with Peach is to use lag canceled fairs into slaps and spamming turnips.


This fight is all about spacing. Space your moves as much as you can. His Range when he spaces can be a pain. If you miss space just for a sec, your gonna get grabbed. Space your moves and pressure his shield as much as possible. You can pressure him better than he can do you.

I dont care how big he is or his speed. DDD is not the character you wanna rush. Cause his grabs are insane. So you mess up once, even through jabs, your gonna get grabbed.

This can lead to a campfest so if you lose your cool easy in fights, your in trouble. Also due to the fact that he does not die so easy. So if your gonna go Fair happy, expect him to live no matter how many times you get him off the stage.

What you wanna do is just rack up damage. Then once he is at a good %, then get some kill moves off him. just do basic combos if you can get them in (yes now I recommend you go combo happy on him) to get some damage off. Since Nair cant really kill DDD that well, but had decent power, use it out the shield alot, or in general if you can. Get some jabs, Dairs, Nairs and grabs in there to start off when he is below 100% Just be quick and get him with those hits, and some turnips. Save your B/U/Nair for after or close to 100%. Also if you can get a pillar off him then go for it. also helps rack up damage and eats the shield (BUT SPACE IT CAUSE HE CAN GRAB YOU IF YOU SCREW IT UP)

When you grab him, dont throw him right away. Kick him a few good times then toss him. He is not gonna die so why not rack up some damage while he is in your grip. For throw options at mid % or higher, just throw him Up. Why? Cause for one thing, Fthrow won't kill him and he will also DI it so he will be at a point where turnips wont hit him, or you for that matter. Now if you throw him up, he is easier to hit with turnips cause he is above field range and you can hit him with turnips easy. And he is not all that fast while airborn. Its kinda slow. Your not gonna kill him off of throws so keep him at a range where you can attack him and get a finisher off. But you can sneak Fthrows in as well and it can screw up thier DI. And will get launched foward in stead of going high up off of the fthrow. And from there it wont be hard to snipe him with turnips or a finisher.

If there are waddledees while in your range, get rid of them. To leave them around the stage, you will regret it.

Don't be in the air too much. Cause it can be clearly seen what you are gonna do. And DDD will just be rolling away. Though making it hard to hit him, no matter how big he is. And you won't be getting anywhere. Mix both your air and ground game. (I recommend you get your ground game on point if you don't have a good one. or your gonna have some trouble. You cant always be in the air)

Get your grabs in there. you can do the most and the easiest damage off of him off your grabs. Mix them up. with your dash attacks. Actually, I limit my dash attacks here. Don't use them so much here.

Videos:
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-Kirby-:kirby2: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 649 - 694

What to Watch out For:
-His kill moves are forward smash, upsmash and the hammer (side b). Back air might kill but it usually is too stale.
-He can spike you with down air, but if you see it coming you can most of the time avoid it
-Very good aerial priority and control, lots of hits will be traded
-Can combo from down throw if you aren't used to it/don't DI properly
-Easy for him to suck you up for free damage
-Don't fall for Kirby-cides!

Matchup Mentality:
-If he sucks up your toad power good for him it's worse than yours!
-Space your movements, watch out for his ground kill moves at higher percentages
-Abuse your turnips as much as you can, he doesn't have insane range or anything and has no projectile, so you can play really defensive and build up damage
-You're gonna float a LOT in this matchup. He can't really knock you out of it until you approach. He's too slow in the air to catch you by surprise so if he approaches you can float backwards.

Did you know?
-You can only grab the stone and even then he can cancel it, so don't try to punish it too much
-His back air and uptilt override a lot of Peach's moves, watch out and don't try to "beat them" too much.
-If Kirby sucks you up and steals your power your break out, if you were holding float you appear right above and can hit him immediately
-You can toad his up B!

Quotes:

I'd place it as 60-40 Peach. This is based of tournament experience.

While getting inside is something of a problem, once you're inside you completly wreck. He's like Falco, but with easier-to-deal with projectiles and worse close combat options.

And that recovery...
If you can manage throwing him off stage for three matches, you win. :bee:
*raises hand*

I think I know this matchup better than most Peaches :) I knew Link was coming soon, so I MM'd Deva three times yesterday- each match was double or nothing from the previous match.

I won all three. And Deva's absurdly good (he can beat the best MK in the state) and I <3 him.

60:40 IMO. Peach has an absurdly good gimp game on Link if played right; float-hogging really destroys Link's recovery. Her jab game messes him up (remember, I'm known for my jab-grabs xD ), which makes fair autocancels and jab-grabs REALLY good, and she can combo the CRAP out of him. Dair beats his arrows, and as long as you can powershield really well, you can get through the projectile game.

You can force his recovery angle with turnips and then edgehog or chase with floated nairs and fairs. Link should not recover if he ever falls below the height of the stage lip in this matchup if you know how to do it.

Honestly, this is why I don't three stock Deva xD I gimp him when he recovers low, so he DOESN'T. He has the most absurdly, retardedly good DI I've ever seen. You can never ever get him where you want him :x

Also, BAN NORFAIR OR DIE. I have nightmares about Deva on Norfair. I've yet to ever beat him there in a match.

I really want to emphasize though; it's Peach advantage, but you have to pay a LOT of attention. You can't just sit back and dair and turn your brain off because it's Link. It's HARD to get inside his range. Once you do, you have him.
Videos:
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-Llamacario- :lucario: 0-100
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Discussion: 519 - 542

What to Watch out For:
-Godly mating call
-Gets stronger as his percentage increases
-Can carry more luggage on his back as his percentage decreases
-King of the desert ninja skills
-his recovery is flying through the night

Matchup Mentality:
-Give up, he is the god of pokemon and llamas
-You must accumulate 999% damage to KO him with your stitchface or bomb (Beamsword might kill at 800%)
-Back air, fail against him
-Edgeguarding is hopeless
-Llamas have an unusual reproductive cycle for a large animal. Female llamas are induced ovulators. Through the act of mating, the female releases an egg and is often fertilized on the first attempt. Female llamas do not go into "heat" or have an estrus cycle. You're goal is to prevent this cycle in hopes that no more llamacarios are born, it is the only way to defeat them

Did you know?
-The height of a full-grown, full-size llama is between 5.5 feet (1.6 meters) to 6 feet (1.8 m) tall at the top of the head. They can weigh between approximately 280 pounds (127 kilograms) and 450 pounds (204 kilograms). At birth, a baby llama (called a cria) can weigh between 20 pounds (9 kilograms) to 30 pounds (14 kilograms). Llamas are very social animals and like to live with other llamas as a herd. Overall, the fiber produced by a llama is very soft and is naturally lanolin free. Llamas are intelligent and can learn simple tasks after a few repetitions. When using a pack, llamas can carry about 25%–30% of their body weight for several miles.

-The gestation period of a llama is 11 1/2 months (350 days). Dams (female llamas) do not lick off their babies, as they have an attached tongue which does not reach outside of the mouth more than half an inch. Rather, they will nuzzle and hum to their newborns.

Quotes:


Videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbPDKHXWlLQ
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-Lucario-:lucario: 45-55
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Discussion: Posts 477-519

What to Watch out For:
-Aura sphere grows bigger as percentage increases. It can get HUGE.
-High priority attacks
-Low cooldown time attacks, especially forward smash is hard to punish after its already come out
-Matchup gets significantly tougher if the Lucario decides to play really campy
-His down-air has huge priority and only your up tilt can beat it. Has to be timed right though.

Matchup Mentality:
-Try to hit him before his attacks come out, they come out slow, just they cool down real quick so punishing after is tougher
-Float can be quite useful if you can predict his ground attacks and jump, float, then punish
-It would be wise to save f-air to kill him slightly after he reaches 110% so he doesn't last to 200% at his strongest.
-Upsmash out of shield can punish him if he doesn't space some attacks
-Lucario's will roll a LOT. Watch for it.

Did you know?
-Lucario gets a slight boost from being multiple stocks behind as well? It's only slight but it's there.
-Lucario gains strength and range after he reaches 100%
-Lucario's UP b can't hit you, Edgehog him if he's out of range.
-His roll is a monster

Quotes:

Guess I'll add what I know.

Dark.Pch says: 50-50

The Good- You can pretty much pressure luigi well with turnips and a good spacing game. Once he is off the stage, he is in serious trouble for he can be taken out pretty easy with good edgeguarding. You can beat him in the ai with good spacing, the only move that he has with good range up there is his Bair. If he dash attacks you, you can end up behind him with TDI (Tap DI) Same with the tornado. Dsmash does not kill so well for when you get it, you don't go straight up. You travel at a angle. And Fsmash does not have that much range. If you save you r moves, Luigi won't be alive for long, really on edgeguards. Done right, he should not be alive past 120.

The Bad- Luigi has the combo and combo breaker on you (Nair). It is not safe to stay inside luigi for too long. A jab combo to Up-B is taking you out quick. And a fresh Fsmash can too. Once you are hit at low percents, Luigi can drag you accross the field. His pressure game is good and can be all over you with his quick air attacks that don't lag. Getting turnips can be a pain sometimes cause he can just tornado you. He can Create a wave of Fireballs to get close to you and screw you both in the air and ground. Thus making it hard to approach him.

Type of style to use: Agressive/defensive (this means use both, not just one)

What to do: You wanna make some openings with turnips and not try to get at luigi too much. remember, most of your stuff can be broken with his N-air. which is strong and can kill well if buffed. If he catches you with that move in the air, he can kill you sooner than he really should be. Once in his face, space you Jabs for incase he is shielding. Cause he can just Nair out of it and can beat you or even trade hits when you go in for another set of jabs or do something else.

If he creates a wave of fire balls what you can do is Crouch the one int the air and if you have a turnip glide toss the ground one. The ground one will hit the turnip and you will glide close to luigi, then take it from there. You also don't wanna try to compete with luigi's Bair. Luiigi just aint having that. What you wanna do is tru and time a snipe with a turnip. Or if you can, toad it. Another good option but requires timing and you being close to him, is her Nair.

Your ground game Vs luigi is pretty solid. Just watch out for tornado and jab to up-B. For the air you need to be more careful cause one again, that nair. That one move can pretty much save his *** the whole match. If you get hit in the air one by luigi, GTFO, screw being arrogant and waiting to him. Get the hell out of there. that can lead to his chain of combos, getting you with his spacing and your death. Just die away when you get hit JUST ONE TIME. seriously don't test luigi, he is not having that, just GTFO.

Videos:
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-Mario-:mario2: 55-45
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What to Watch out For:
-Uair and Up Tilt as damage rackers. Stong Smash attacks. Up Smash is strong has high priority
-Cape which has reflective properties and spins you to face the opposite direction when it connects
-Fair can spike. Bair can be used as a wall
-Fireballs and FLUDD

Matchup Mentality:
-Use Fair to outspace his aerials. Dair as a damage racker works nicely but don't predictbly Float right into Mario's aerials
-F Tilt and Up Tilt can stop his aerials
-Always be on the look out for F Smash and Up Smash as they are his main kill moves
-Powershield Fireballs
-Avoid Toading to protect yourself from being edgeguarded. If Mario Capes you, the spores will be reflected and you will most likely die

Did you know?
-The Cape won't turn you around if you're shielding

Quotes:

Videos:
[/COLLAPSE]

-Marth-:marth: 45-55
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Discussion: Posts 187 - 248

What to Watch out For:
-Great range and strong killing moves
-TIPPER WILL KILL YOU REALLY EARLY
-He can still spike you
-His forward B on the gruond. Very fast, does a lot of damage
-use of jumps and double jumps to space aerials and get you to react
-his UP b out of shield, he'll use it alot, watch out for it

Matchup Mentality:
-Do not down air as much, you'll be on the defense usually
-Turnip anytime you have a chance to pull one out!
-Back airs, float back-then forward air and forward smash spacing to help you deal with his spacing.
-Edgeguard him as much as possible, you'll win if you can get your kills early off these

Did you know?
-Marth can instantly drop from the ledge and forward air, hitting you with it if you're above the ledge
-You can gimp him by holding the ledge, then letting go into a float, then re grabbing it to gain invincibilty. A very long floating ledge stall. Very useful on Marth.

Quotes:

Videos:

Marth-Peach Range Demonstration
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-Meta Knight-:metaknight: 35-65
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Rediscussion (Old): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222777

What to Watch out For:
-Down Smash and F Smash as good kill moves, Down Air gimps, transcendant priority
-Almost impossible to edgeguard without heavily risking being gimped
-Can Up + B OoS poorly spaced moves. Up + B has invincibilty frames on start up and his Glide Attack has huge priority and can be used as a kill move
-Tornado that has insane priority
-Good aerials and tilts. F Tilt is a good anti air move
-Planking (re grabbing the ledge and taking advantage of the invinciblity frames)

Matchup Mentality:
-Punishment and shield. You will be heavily reliant on Turnips, paticularly OoS Turnips and reverse Glide Tossed Turnips, in this match up for punishing MK's moves and camping. Since defensive play is essential, Turnips allow you to punish his attacks quickly and safely and Turnips also provide you with follow ups. Make good use of Bonewalking to safely pull up Turnips if you are about half of the stage's distance from MK. Despite MK's aerial priority, he has the 5th worst horizontal air speed in the game. Abuse this to your advantage. Throw Turnips to counter moves that hit your shield, drop your shield and Jab, you can sometimes even grab him or Nair him after his aerials such as Fair due to his poor horizontal speed if he misspaces or you run in and force him to accidently mis space. Fair is also a useful aerial to use to combat and manuver MK's attacks but can be stopped by F Tilt so keep MK guessing so you aren't constantly getting F Tilted, bait and punish using either Float or Turnips. Unless MK is in the lead, you need never approach him since you have the projectile. If for some reason you do need to approach, keep using Turnips and Fair to combat MK
-MK's sword has transcendant priority. This bad in one respect as he can win many clashes due to his hitboxes not having hurtboxes but extremely good in another sense because attacks such as Fair and F Tilt will not cancel out Turnips. This is very handy if MK is trying to juggle you with Uair as the Turnip creates an obstacle whilst he is trying to juggle
-You can pivot grab MK out of his Tornado if his body is around level with yours. You can also F Smash him out of it. Stitchface Turnips work too if you get one
-You can Bair MK out of his Tornado if you are above him. Do your best to DI up out of the Tornado and punish him with a Bair. If you are falling down and MK uses the Tornado to hit you, use Bair to knock him out of it
-Down Smash, F Smash and Up + B are his best kill moves. Down Smash is quick, expect this at above 100%. Never airdodge into the ground near MK or you could die from his D Smash catching you as you land. Avoid competing his F Smash directly with your Fair, it has deceptive vertical range, hover with your Float to stop yourself if you need to before you punish. Up + B can kill/gimp you if the sweetspot hits. He can use it OoS to punish moves that are not correctly spaced. Don't give him the chance to do so, always space your moves correctly and pull away with aerials such as Fair to avoid punishment and enhance spacing
-Never try to tackle his Glide Attack head, wait for him to either hit your shield or move away. Prepare a Turnip if you have time for punishment. If he is coming at you whilst you're in the air, Toad or airdodge away
-It is almost impossible to safely gimp a good MK. Instead of tackling him offstage directly, throw Turnips up in the air both slightly offstage and onstage to make it difficult for him to return
-MK's Dair sends characters at a downward horizontal angle. Getting hit by this is very dangerous for Peach who has poor vertical recovery. Sometimes it is best to prematurely use your Up + B to recover and avoid MK's Dair. There is a good chance he may hit you with a Uair or Fair but both of these can be DI'ed up and will not kill you unless you are at a very high percent. Taking damage certainly beats losing a stock any day

Did you know?
-MK is light. Throw out the odd Uair to hit through his Dair when he's at a high percentage
-His Up + B has invinciblity frames, this is dangerous OoS. Be on the lookout for this if he has his shield up
-MK's Down + B cause him to disappear. He can technically do this forever but this technique known as the Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned in pretty much every tournament you will find
-Theoretically, MK's planking is nigh on impossible to beat. Planking is nearly always banned in a tournament or hampered by a ledge grab rule. If MK starts planking, you haven't got a huge amount of options. Throw Turnips, try pressuring the MK off the edge, try grabbing it yourself. Hopefully, this should never happen

Quotes:

Highlighted things she can do that are really good

-She can contest him off the ledge and under the ledge. If you drop to up air using the invinicibilty frames, and up b, you can challenge him on the ledge. He will be greedy and keep trying to gimp you and you can keep racking free damage.

-If he whiffs UP B coming back from the ledge, shield it and punish with back or neutral air.

-Down air beats airborn shuttle loop from above, try to catch him into it. If you do it high on the stage you can down air kill him at relatively low percents.

-Turnip game can frustrate him

-F-smash beats tornado if spaced

-Downsmash breaks through his shield. Follow Bone's advice - use the second hit of back air and follow up with downsmash or something else.

-Float above him and wait for him to downsmash or tease him, he will downsmash and you can space yourself to avoid it and punish with f-air

-Up air is a relatively decent killer if it's 100% fresh

-Forward tilt is really good, especially out shield, it keeps him modest and away from you
Some cool things I do though are....

- SH Dair and land behind him the instant the 4th kick htis and grab (Guaranteed Grab)
- SH Dair , start float during 3rd kick (ending up behind him), Double Bair, Down Smash (Guaranteed Shield Poke)
-Delayed Dash Attacks are un-punishable by MK if spaced properly *so only the second hit connects.* Sure it does 4%, but it keeps him away. He has no responses out of shield to this either.

Double Jump U air outranges all of MK's aerials and creates a juggle, you can then read his air dodges and punish.

Shield getting hit?

SH Dair OoS counters D-Tilt
DA OoS counters F-Tilt
F-Tilt/DA OoS counters Fair/Bair
F-Tilt/DA/Nair/Bair/Jab counters Nair
U-Air OoS counters Dair
Nair OoS hits Up B and clashes with it's GA
SDI top left/right to Nair breaks Nado


This match up is a game of cat and mouse. You are always the mouse and can never be the cat, at all. You dare try being the cat, you are asking to get the crap beating out of you. (this applies to Marth as well) how does a mouse come out victorious from a cat? If you ever watch tom and jerry, the way Jerry handles tom. thats how you are suppose to do it here.

You have no buissness approaching meta. At all. Let him come to you. You can attack him from distance. He can't If he wants to hurt you, he has to come to you. Plus need to keep your Kill moves fresh. Meta is not that heavy and lucky for us, he can die well from us.

Lot's have been said here so I'll just add what you need in this match.

- Patience. If you play aggressive, throw this match out the window, you are not winning. Patience is important here for you don't need to be approaching meta. learn to be defensive, playing aggressive will have meta end you sooner than you expect. Certain characters you need to play aggressive. meta is NOT one of them. He is not having that.

- Evasion. You need to have good evasion when Meta is all over you. Once meta gets his hits in and is on you, he can stay on your *** and even kill you for it. So you need to know how to break away. With platforms this makes it hard, but easier at the same time. Learn how to break free him his pressure/rampage. Once you do, you can start the process of getting damage from turnips and having him come to you.

- Spacing. This is also important. With you have good spacing, it will make it hard for meta to touch you. His range is not that good. Only time he has decent range is his Ftilt and and think Fsmash. Bait his moves and space yours. Done right, you can break his crap and hit him. Add turnips to your spacing if in fear you kill moves will get weak. Just don't pick them up at the wrong time.

- Speed/quick relfexes. This is one of the reasons I find meta fun to play against. Cause with him, I have to play so fast. somewhat reminds me of melee. Don't stay in one place for too long. Don't roll alot, you will just eat a Dsmash or move into his attacks. Make it hard for meta to pin point you. This can reduce the chance or stupid kills he can get on you. This is also important cause his range is not all that. Meta hits your shield, recat as fast as possible with a counter attack. Meta sidesteps? short hop Dair or FC>bair if looking the other way. See meata rolling on to the stage? Reverse Fsmash him. But be quick about it all. The faster you are, the more problems meta will have. More than expected. Even for a character like Peach.

To me these are the 4 most important factors for beating this broken character. The most important one to me I would say is patience. Even if you suck at the last 3, patience can make up for it. Use these 4 things and use them as combinations. Or all at once if you are good at them.
The entire top portion of the tornado and the corners will all allow you to hit MK through it with bair. You can actually SH a bair away from an incoming tornado and smack him out of the corner. You can also throw turnips through the top, shield and punish OOS with a turnip/dash attack unless he pulls out way early (keeping your shield fairly strong), and if you are about to get hit you can usually manage to get hit by one of the hitboxes that allow you to escape (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoH_NjsasqA ).

They'll stop nadoing when you can stop an incoming tornado 50% of the time, and then on top of that punish actually getting hit with the tornado 50% of the time you get hit by it. The risk/reward isn't that good at all.

The problem, of course, is him punishing you with tornado when you have a turnip in hand. He can nado away to a platform and you can't really punish it even if you shielded, and when you're in the air you're super limited. But this is where Bonewalking saves you! :) You'll pull away during the turnip pull and if he nados you can pivot and reverse glidetoss away.

As to recovery, it's all about DI. You often have to take a hit, but you can maneuver yourself around MK so that he has to hit you with something you can DI or SDI up and make it over him. You can slip around under him or up-B early when he's going for you depending on how you see him spacing. The key is just to make sure he can't dair you. If you up-B over him, sure, he'll nair, uair, or shuttle loop you, but you just DI the hits up and recover over the stage. If he tornados as you come down, fall on it with bair. Simple as pie.

Sure, you'll take unfortunate damage trying to recover, but by just forcing him to hit you with moves you can DI, you can at least make it fairly certain you'll make it back to the stage. If I get gimped, it's usually my fault. Though it IS still stressful to try to get back.
Videos:

Kyon (Peach) vs M2K (MK)
Praxis (Peach) vs Itakio (MK) 1
Praxis (Peach) vs Itakio (MK) 2
Praxis (Peach vs Itakio (MK) 3
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-Mr. Game & Watch-:gw: 45-55
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Discussion: Posts 96 - 139

What to Watch out For:
-Back airs. back airs
-Smashes that come out real fast and don't lag much after. Careful there.

Matchup Mentality:
-Use turnips to mess up his back air approach
-Hitting with Toad a couple of times will get him to be less aggressive and give you more space
-You want to float, space yourself to punish him after he throws out his attacks, because he will be throwing out a lot

Did you know?
-Up tilt beats the key. Looks like he doesn't have the key to Peaches heart. Ha ha ha ha....
-If Game and Watch UP b's and overshoots the ledge, GRAB him and don't hit him. Just like snake he'll fly off and be unable to UP B again.
-Hitting with the up air fan/lock will contribute to refresh his stale moves!!! Avoid it.

Quotes:

Good summary of what was general agreed upon in the thread:

Videos:

NikoK: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xwckq_ZiZy8
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-Ness-:ness2: 60-40
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What to Watch out For:
-Long range Fair. Aerials are strong. Dair is a very very strong spike
-Bair is a very strong throw
-D Tilt can trip
-F Smash has reflective properties
-Pk Thunder, Flash and Fire

Matchup Mentality:
-Bair his Fair approaches or follow where he goes and hit him. OoS Turnips work nicely
-Gimp his recovery
-Don't fall for Pk Thunder/Flash tricks. Stay alert so you don't get hit by something strong
-Powershield Pk Fire. If you do get hit, DI away as it forms a pillar of multi hitting fire
-If you're at a high percent, try positioning yourself so if Ness manage to grab you and B throws you, you are furthur away from the blast zone which will allow you to survive longer

Did you know?
-Ness suffers from an extra 10 frames of lag when grab released. You can continually grab release and pummel Ness to the end of the stage. You must keep pumelling to force a ground release upon him. When he is released, you can then dash grab him and repeat
-If you force an air release on Ness (which is the standard release as he is above the ground when Peach grabs him), provided it is done correctly, you can jump up and Fair him. You have to input the jump and Fair pretty much at the same time and move towards Ness whilst doing so. The timing is incredibly strict but it can be done easily with practice

Quotes:

Videos:
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-Olimar- :olimar: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 754 - 790

What to Watch out For:
-Pikmin spam will build up damage fast
-VERY strong kill moves, if he uses his throw, up air, upsmash and back air
-UP B can knock you out of float if you are not careful
-Very good grab range
-Super armor on his pikmin call

Matchup Mentality:
-Move very fast and stay in his face
-Use high priority attacks, back air, and down air are excellent. down air combos ruin him
-Try to gimp him by knocking him far away and edgehogging, using the float stall edgehog described in the marth summary. Throw a turnip then do it to force him into a bad position.
-Jab or jab to grab quickly after autocancelling aerials, his grab is slow and won't beat your jab.

Did you know?
-Toad can be used as an attack if you have pikmin on you
-Downsmash kills pikmin off you
-Al your aerials besides up air can attack through pikmin and still hit him in the same swoop
-Blue pikmin have a lot of knockback, dont get grabbed if its the next one. purple pikmin actually have hitstun and can knock you away instead of just grabbing onto you. fear these ones

Quotes:

I would say that the Peach vs. Olimar is 65/35 in Peach's favor. Peach counters (almost) everything that Olimar has. Pikmin throw is easy to deal with for three reasons:

1. Peach has no attacks with an elemental quality meaning that any attack of hers will damage a pikmin. This is different with characters such as ROB. ROB's Bair, Nair, Dair, and Usmash cannot hit off a pikmin with fire qualities. ROB's laser and Fsmash cannot hit off a pikmin with electric qualities. However all of Peach's attacks are regular in terms of the qualities given to them giving her huge options when it comes to hitting pikmen.

2. Peach's hitboxes on her attacks are generaly large in size. For example, her Nair covers her entire body making it easy to hit off pikmen. A sideB will also deal with them well. Again, this is different for other characters.

3. Peach's damage is good and her damage range is small. On average, a move of hers will do between 10-15%. Dair=14%, Nair=13%, Bair=14%, Fair=15%, Uair=13%, SideB=15%, Usmash=12-18% (depending on where you hit), Fsmash=12-18% (depending on what you get), Dsmash= 5-21%, Ftilt=6-13%, Dtilt=10%, Utilt=13%. Those are some of Peach's moves that might be used to hit a pikmin off. All of them are highly capable of doing so and therefore, Peach has many options in this matter.

Olimars grab game is also countered by Peach because of her quick attacks and ability to stay in the air for so long. Because Olimar now cannot grab/camp well, he is forced to use his deadly ground or air game. The problem with this however, is that his ground game is not at all flexible in the way that it cannot deal with diagnol approaches well. As a result, Peach's Dair approach is very difficult to beat using Olimar since his Fsmash will not hit and his Usmash won't do much either. Spaced Fairs/Dairs will do hefty damage to Olimar. Next comes his air game which is just flat-out outranged by Peach making aerial combat also difficult. Finally, there is Olimar's recover which can be gimped by only one turnip if Olimar doesn't have his jump. Olimar's jump is also easy to get rid of in the first place so off-stage he is extremely vulnerable.
i did not mean you but a lot of people in general underestimate oli players (which is good :D) but people forget that we know how to air dodge too and that once we are off the stage it does not mean certain death

it is still peach's advantage but do not, i mean do NOT underestimate our little slave driver :D
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-Peach-:peach: 50-50
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What to Watch out For:
-Everything you can do, she can do as well. It is a ditto after all

Matchup Mentality:
-Aerials can be stopped with F Tilt or F Smash if they are poorly spaced. Dairs can be Up Tilted and Uaired and even Up Smashed
-Spacing is crucial here since you both have the same range
-OoS Turnips are good for punishing. Turnips in general will be very helpful to rack up damage
-Watch carefully how Peach recovers. Get ready to edgeguard with aerials and Turnips. If you think Peach will try and Toad, wait for it and then Up Smash/Fair her to punish it

Did you know?
-Hup CHAAAAAA!!!

Quotes:

Videos:
[/COLLAPSE]

-Pikachu- :pikachu2: 50-50
[COLLAPSE=]


Discussion: Posts 1019 - 1199

What to Watch out For:
-Spammable projectile (thunder jolts)
-Up + B, Quick Attack. Good recovery and can used to perform the Quick Attack combo, leading to enhanced use of thunder jolts/aerial attacking
-Fast movement speed/attacks
-Thunder, a good edgeguarding move. Also a good finisher for when Peach is in the air
-Strong multi hit Down Smash
-Up Tilt/Uair for juggling
-Strong Up Smash/F Smash when sweetspotted

Matchup Mentality:
-Learn to Powersheild his thunder jolts. This is crucial if you want to win
-Nair will hit Pikachu out of his Quick Attack. Nair also outprioritzes all of Pikachu's aerials. Useful for breaking out of his juggling
-F Tilt/Up Tilt will hit Pikachu out of aerials provided you get the hit in first
-Toad works well vs Pikachu
-Use Turnips wisely. Thunder jolts and Turnips will cancel each other out if they connect
-Clever use of Floating, especially to avoid thunder jolts
-Watch how Pikachu uses Thunder. Don't let him trick and don't run into it
-Watch carefully how Pikachu uses the Quick Attack Combo. Nair/D Smash will knock Pikachu out of this

Did you know?
-If you hit Pikachu whilst he is using his Down Smash with an aerial you will always get hit. Wait until he has finished and punish it
-Turnips are bad for gimping Pikachu's recovery
-F Smash is an excellent punishing move after sheilding a D Smash
-If you get caught in Pikachu's D Smash, at higher percents you can Smash DI out of it. Be ready to tech against the floor when you do escape it

Quotes:


I have played anther (yes on wifi, may not mean much from both sides but the matches we had we went even. i won some and so did he) So I learned this match up pretty well. His jolts I just Powershield and run out of my shield too him. if I have a turnip, powershield to glide toss.

His Dsmash, one of the main problems People seem to have with him. I usually bait the move if I tend to know he will Dsmash. Then punish with at air attack, glide toss or grab. if I get caught in it. I smash DI out of it. its not that hard to do so that takes care of that problem.

If pika uses his Quick attack cancels on you, attack out of your shield if he lands near you. But expect follow ups after the quick attacks. i usually do an instand FC>Nair to shut that game down.

Pika does not really have a solid approach on you, nor many options for it. But you do so you beat him there. when Pika starts his combos, he is good at sticking to Peach due to her weight. This would be his air game mostly. But you also got the combos on him. So its 50/50 on this part. Though it is a lot harder for pika to keep it up.

Makes 2 main solid kills on Peach are his Upsmash and thunder. Don't get thunder while off the stage, you will die quickly. Anther once throw me off, than ran next to me and thundered. I was near his body i believe and I died on battle field around 52 or 62%. reason for this was it sent me side ways more than upward.

Dsmash wont kill you until you are at High %. unless the Dsmash sends you upward then he catches you with thunder. Fsmash you can live that pretty well if you DI up and to the stage.

His ground game is not all that. So if you can do damage with Peach on the ground then you are good. turnip follow ups work well against Pika cause not much he can do about it.

Edgeguarding him if not that much of a problem. Snip or Zdrop turnips. If you have quick reactions, you can tell where pika is gonna go when coming back to the stage. so it is not that hard to punish or even gimp him out of his recovery.

Pika is not that hard to kill. If you keep you kill moves fresh, pika wont be un the stage for long. And you have a few kill moves to Pika then he does on you.

I say this is ether 50-50 or sightly in Peach's favor. Me playing Anther made me realize just how tuff Pika is, but being on point, the match seems even for me and him.
i regularly play, what alot of people consider one of the best pika's in the midwest, although i don't know if he goes to any major tourneys, he's always at my monthley tourney tho, he goes by CBK, but i've played pika so many times, and i'd have to say its really close to 50-50 Dair cancels pika's projectiles, and combos really well, and if you can set up a good Fair you can kill pika at pretty low percents, but at the same time, its not easy to land those kill moves on pika, they are always moving and spend alot of the time in the air, and the pika i play uses alot of QAC, i've gotten used to it, and i can just Dsmash to cancel his QAC before it leads to anything, but really this matchup comes down to whoever has the better spacing imo, pikas Dsmash is very easy to DI out of with peach, but still watch for it, it wont kill you but if you keep getting caught in it thats alot of damage your taking, i think the main killer for pika against peach in this one is his Usmash, its comparable to fox's in both speed and power, and try not to give pika the chance to catch a turnip, his glide toss > Fsmash is a very nasty combo.
I personally believe the match up is 50-50. Pikachu has a better ground game but Peach has a better air game

Make use of Dairs in this match but be aware of Pikachus Up Tilt - it comes out fast and if you time your Dairs wrong, you'll get a face full of Up Tilt. If Pikachu attempts to continually Up Tilt you, try Floating out the way and if you think Pikachu will jump up to try and hit you with an aerial, get a Nair in there. Turnips are helpful in this match as well. Glide Tossing works but Turnips are cancelled out by Pikachu's T Jolts. Time your pulls well because Pikachu is quick and can punish you if he's close by with a Dash attack (or worse, an Up Smash). I personally like to save my Turnips and throw them in the air to counter a jumping T Jolt spamming Pikachu

Pikachu has decent aerials. Uair has low knockback and will mainly be used for juggling. Bair is a damage builder - if you get stuck in this, DI upwards out of it. Dair has a very very deceptive hitbox and as an additional hit when landing. If Pikachu uses this above you, get ready for on Up Tilt. If he SH's it, Sheild it/Float out of the way and be prepared to punish his landing lag. Pikachus Fair comes out fast, has reasonable range and has multi hits. If Pikachu SH spams this, counter it with by jumping back and coming down with your Fair which has more range (this is difficult as Pikachus Fair has more range than it would first appear). If Pikachu uses fast falled Fairs, depending on where he his, counter it with an Up/F Tilt. If that doesn't look like it'll work, sheild it and roll out the way (this is by far the safest option). Getting hit with Pikachus Fair can lead into some nasty moves such as following into an Up Tilt/Down Smash. You can punish poorly spaced Fairs by walking backwards and using F Smash as well. Remember, if you're close enough, Nair will outprioritze/trade hits with Pikachus aerials

Pikachu has a variety of kill methods and his killing power is better/more flexible than Peachs. His main ones are his F Smash, Up Smash, Down Smash and Thunder. If you get stuck in his Down Smash, Smash DI up out of it (be prepared to tech on the floor). Never EVER try to hit Pikachu out of his D Smash with an aerial until he's finished using it because you WILL get hit. If you sheild the D Smash, wait until you are out of hitting range and punish Pikachu with an F Smash. Be aware of clever Thunder use! If Pikachu knocks you up into the air and you're at a high percent, don't get tricked as this is a very easy kill for Pikachu. Pikachu can wait for you to airdodge and then punish or run over to where he thinks you'll move in the air and punish you that way. Or if he's feeling really technical, he can use QA to dart about/catch up with you and use Thunder. If you get hit by Pikachus F Smash, your best bet is to DI diagonally upwards as DI'ing straight up risks a ceiling kill

Watch out for Pikachus Quick Attack. Not only is this good recovery, Pikachu can use this to perform the QAC and zoom around the place to enhance Thunder Jolt spamming (jump up and B reversal), rack up damage and jump out with aerials. You can knock Pikachu out of this aerials/smashes with nearly anything in your moveset. Actually doing this though is difficult

So far, after taking everything into account, I think the match up is 50-50. Both characters can rack damage up against each other, both have a decent projectile (Peachs is argueably better in this match) and both have reasonable KO ability (Pikachus is better when he lands them correctly though. Peach's Fair isn't a very good damage builder in this match up so it will be kept fairly fresh which is a bonus)
Videos:
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-Pit- :pit: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 790 - 857

What to Watch out For:
-Lots of multi hit moves (Smash DI out of them)
-Fast, controllable arrows
-Fast start up on attacks
-Has very good recovery, goes under the stage
-Two primary useful reflectors
-Kililng moves of forward smash, up air and back air

Matchup Mentality:
-Powersheild/Dair arrows. Do not let them get to you.
-Spaced Fairs are great in this match
-Gimp his Up + B recovery because if he gets hit whilst using it, he can't use it again until he lands
-Dair combos work well vs Pit
-Throwing turnips out of shield are excellent, EXCELLENT

Did you know?
-Pit's side B has reflecting properties so never attempt to throw Turnips at it/Toad it
-Pit has very little (possibly no) approachs
-Pit has a hard time killing just like Peach
-F Tilt is a good killer as Fair is much better at building damage here

Quotes:

I've got a bit of Pit experience...there's no Pits with me in Eastern WA, but there's FIVE of them in western WA (Sagemoon, Donchan, Hati, someone else, and I think Fear secondaries Pit now).

First thing I discovered was that Pit has no approaches on Peach. A defensive playstyle works really well. Stand under a platform to protect yourself from arrow range and shield and let him come to you, then **** him with retreating fairs or tilts.

If the Pit is smart and patient, pressure him. You can approach with dairs- they block his arrows. Just don't get predictable (drop to the ground before you reach him perhaps).

Peach's dair combos **** Pit pretty bad, and jab grabs are very effective. When you land grabs on Pit, mash A so that you can refresh your moves by kicking him, so your Fair remains an effective kill move- you'll use it a lot on Pit.

Bait Pit a lot. Throw turnips, act like you're going to drop in and fair and then jump backwards. Pit's use Fsmash defensively quite a lot (at least Sagemoon does) because of its wide hitbox, but it kind of pins them down.

Don't glide toss into their face because of the reflector- throw the turnips from overhead and drop and punish if they reflect it.

Every time they shield a fair you should jab once then dash grab. Every single time. Pit's grab isn't fast enough to grab you in the few frames available to.

Turnips gimp Pit's recovery offstage, and he combos with Dair really well. I'm pretty sure Peach has the advantage in this matchup.
I believe Peach has a slight advantage of 55 to 45. Here's my take on the matchup.

Pit's arrows should not bother Peach one bit if you know how to deal with them. On the ground just power shield them, they aren't that fast. It just takes good/decent timing. In the air just down air. Either they will pass through you for some reason, or you'll cancel it out with the down air. Even an arrow from above won't hit your head if you are down airing, I don't know why but I will take it!

Peach can combo him well, but he has some combos on her as well. He can actually be pretty good at edgeguarding her, and his back air might get a nasty early kill on Peach if it catches you by surprise or at full power.

These matches always take awhile since both players will take forever killing each other. I highly suggest you save f-tilt and do a jab to f-tilt combo on him at 150%, sweetspotted it will kill him. I honestly don't believe you can save f-air and be effective, it is far too good of a move to beat Pit's aerials and attacks. I like to do retreating f-air's in this matchup. Jump backwards, forward air. Then jump forwards, forward air. Due to the lag on his attacks (after they come out, because they come out reallly really fast) this strategy works pretty **** well if you are in close combat.

Pit's moves come out fast and have great hitboxes which gives Peach some troubles. You may find yourself caught in a lot of that when you get at medium ranges. His up air has good priority and will give you serious problems even through your down air. That move makes it tough to edgeguard a good Pit , if they really know what they are doing. Try the turnip or down air gimp that Dark Peach mentioned, it is hard to pull off on an aware Pit though. I still see these matches lasting awhile, but I feel Peach has more answers to his threats then Pit does have answers to her threats, so 55-45 Peach's favor.
Videos
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-Pokémon Trainer- :pt: :007: :002: :006: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts 1718 - 1760

What to Watch out For:
-All three of his Pokémon, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard
-Pokémon Change, Down + B. Basically allows him to swap Pokémon

Matchup Mentality:
-If you ever see Pokémon Trainer change Pokémon and you're nearby (unlikely to happen), charge up a smash attack (Up Smash at high percents) or punish accordingly
-When Pokémon Change is used, the Pokémon that was out before recovers from it's fatigue over time. Also, Squirtle will always change to Ivysaur, Ivysaur will always change to Charizard and Charizard will always change to Squirtle

Did you know?
-Pokémon Trainer does not take part in the actual fight. He just stands in the background, issuing commands. How lazy
-The Pokéball he throws during Pokémon Change will not hurt you incase you were wondering

Quotes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbhbLrSQKyY[/URL]
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-R.O.B.-:rob: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts 248-326

What to Watch out For:
-Auto and well spaced aerials
-Campers (top and laser, especially when recovering in the air)
-High priority aerials
-Quick and near lagless side step

Matchup Mentality:
-Approach with turnips as much as you can
-Down air combos really well if you can get in with it
-Toad is quite helpful as you can see his moves starting up
-Neutral air bothers him a lot
-Grab his top so he can't use it, can do aerials and forward smash while holding an item

Did you know?
-To F-smash with item, must be holding A, press forward on C-stick, then let go of A.
-In unifinished down air (last hit doesn't prop him up) can combo into other hits against rob due to his weight
-Rob CAN change direction hes facing while UP Bing if he does it right /a ROB technique

Quotes:

Videos:
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-Samus-:samus2: 50-50
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What to Watch out For:
-Fair and Uair have multi hits. Dair is a strong spike. Bair is a main kill move
-Good Tilts. D Tilt can kill
-Charge shot, two types of missiles, bombs and a Zair
-F Smash and D Smash have decent knockback

Matchup Mentality:
-Floating head on will get you trashed in this match as Samus' Zair will knock you out of the sky. Approach from the ground and always with a Turnip
-Use Fair for killing
-Try to avoid approaching from the air
-Powershield missiles. Nair will also stop them. Shield charge shots. Just avoid bombs you can't actually hit them

Did you know?
-Samus can airdodge and interrupt her airdodge and use her Zair. Watch out for this
-Samus will flash when her Charge shot is fully charged
-Samus can change into Zero Suit Samus during a match by quickly inputting Up, Down and Up Taunt. You are unlikely to see this in an actual match

Quotes:

Videos:
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-Sheik-:sheik: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 1275-1347

What to Watch out For:
-Quick ground speed
-Strong Up Smash and a good DACUS (Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash)
-F Tilt and Up Tilt, both of which can be used as damage rackers
-Needles

Matchup Mentality:
-Float above Shiek's needles
-Dair combos work well vs Shiek
-Peach's Bair will eat any of Shiek's aerials and at the very least trade hits
-Turnips work well vs Shiek's recovery

Did you know?
-Shiek cannot F Tilt lock Peach. If Shiek tries to do this, Peach can Nair out of it
-Peach has a chaingrab on Shiek using her Down Throw up to about 26% which can be finished off with an F Tilt

Quotes:

Peach - Sheik is 60-40. Sheik cannot forward tilt combo Peach Just neutral air out of it. She cannot edgeguard gimp Peach either. Peach can chaingrab Sheik from 0 to 45. Peach can down air combo Sheik VERY well because her weight is set up just for it. Back air will eat ANY of Sheik's aerials, and it, at worst, will trade hits with Sheik's back air. Needles are not exceedingly useful because you can approach with a float, wait for the needles or lack thereof, and respond accordingly.

One thing that Sheik does really have that can kill Peach suddenly is the DACUS (Dash attack cancelled upsmash) What Champ likes to do is if he realizes I'm going to float over his needles he immediately does this to punish me for it, so he might Needle to get me to jump/float over it then DACUS. Watch out for it.
peach does great vs sheik. This is probably the second most knowledgeable match up I understand in this game after peach vs falcon.

First of all, you cannot tilt lock peach. She can nair out of it. This is gonig to surprise a lot of sheik players when you fight a peach the first time. It is also hard to not do it especially if you just fought like a fox or something. The finger memory can actually own sheik herself vs peach. Of course, you can forward tilt to nair or up tilt at certain percentages. Usually though, peach shouldn't be in that predicament anyway. It is very hard for me to land a tilt on edrees because he spaces so well. This can hurt sheik a lot because tilt is the fundamental of sheik's game play. It's like taking away fox's down air. Doesn't make them useless but forces them to fight a new style.

Also, peach can get out of sheik's continuous jab too so you can't even replace the jabs for tilt lock.

Now, besides that, peach rules the air vs sheik. You cannot go head to head vs peach in the air unless u force peach to be above you somehow and that's still risky. You still want to space ur moves but don't worry about being dominate in the air.

Ground game wise, this is where sheik have a chance vs peach. The needles and grabs is ur best bet vs peach which only really work on the ground. Peach can still float over them but it's kinda complicate to explain. You have to trick peach into staying on the ground which is hard to do. Like Edrees stated before too, I DACUS him when I know he's going to float. It's not that hard to condition people to jump/float in general when they r scare of needles hitting them.

When edgeguarding, Peach have nasty stuff vs sheik. The way the turnip is being place forces sheik to up b earlier or lower because sheik's up b have very limited control. Forward b doesn't work too if the turnip is drop right. You'll jsut get hit by it when you pull in the chain. Sheik can edge guard peach kinda but very tricky. You need to fully understand how peach's up b works if u ever want to hit her.

match up wise. Whoever gets the first kill USUALLY wins. When I fight Edrees or vs other peach players, it is always who get the first kill. They both die about 150% against each other since they both lack a strong killing move. Then, you just play really defensive and rack up % on their second stock and do it until it's over.

That's the stuff in my head right now. There's more little detail stuff but I don't really wanna go into it.

60-40 in peach's favor mainly because she can limit a lot of sheik's option and can combo her like no 2morrow. Take sheik to stages that are small. Force her to fight you and you'll win. Don't go to like a giant stage where she can needle camp you. Stages that are easy to edge guard are nice too.
Videos:
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-Snake-:snake: 40-60
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Discussion: Posts 4 - 53

What to Watch out For:
-Up Tilt, Mortar Slide, Various Projectiles
-His tilts in general have insane priority
-Killing him is difficult, some options are the Cypher Gimp and F-air to knock him out of his Up B super armor.

Matchup Mentality:
-Hit and run game
-Patience
-Work around his moves rather than falling into his traps thinking you can beat them head on

Did you know?
-Down air and back air knock him out of his mortar slide. Turnips will explode his dsmash mine.
-His C4 can be toaded. Useful surprise to him (the spores may still reach him)

Quotes:

On grenades:


Videos:
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-Sonic- :sonic: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 1499 - 1560

What to Watch out For:
-Fastest ground speed in the game
-Spin attacks
-Good, versatile recovery
-Excellent punishment game
-Up Tilt and spaced Bair, both of which are good anti air/float moves

Matchup Mentality:
-Play defensivly and make Sonic approach you
-Be patient
-Don't do anything slow
-Make good use of Turnips
-Don't be predictable
-Use aerials such as Nair to knock him out of his spindashes

Did you know?
-Peach has a lot more priority than Sonic does. All her aerials will knock him out of his spin dashes
-If Sonic uses Homing Attack, it's a free chance to land a Nair or an Up Smash if you're on the ground
-If Peach plays defensivly, Sonic will always have to be the one who approaches
-Sonic excels in his punishment game. Being predictable and overly agressive will lose you the match
-A lot of Sonic's will use their Dair after using their Up + B. Punish accordingly as they land
-Many Sonic's will try and kill you vertically by means of using their Up + B and then following up with a Uair. Counter by using Floating Dair/Dair or airdodging
-If you grab Sonic out of his Up + B over the ledge, do not hit him. Instead, air release him and he will air trip
-Steak

Quotes:

Sonic, really has no priority when compared to Peach, floating nairs are more than enough to hit Sonic out of SpinDash Rolls (SDRs), HA becomes absolutely useless in this matchup, as it is easy to see coming and easy to hit.

Knowing that, Sonic is going to pick his approaches carefully, because this isn't March/April where Sonic is all about spin attacks.

You're going to want to float a little bit higher than usual, because Sonic's ground spacing tool is FTilt, rise above the distance even angled up, and Sonic loses a lot of moves for uses.

Knowing that, expect Bair/Hyphened USmash as the normal approaches. Fair/Dair can be used ifyou get really predictable/careless. Sonic is the king of punishment, don't leave yourself open too often. Take in mind that Sonic can angle his FSmash upward, so if you really get predictable with your float, Sonic is just going to wait for you to slip somewhere and have you fall on his fist.

Sonic can use turnips against you if not easily avoid them, because the SBR THAT right when they said Sonic is top-tier with items, I would use Turnips for just getting around/tossing them straight up into the air to cause a distraction.

Sonic will use UTilt to knock you out of your float as it has decent disjointedness at Sonic's shoes.

Don't float to get back on the stage, you'll leave yourself open for Sonic to use Bair to either push you further away from the stage, or just outright kill you. I recommand recovering very high or low, just be careful when recovering high because Sonic is going to Spring to Uair to kill you. He'll even use this after an U-Throw and you are up there in the air.

Use a retreating Toad if you want to punish Sonic trying to recover by locking on to you with HA, the spores should teach him a lesson.

Take Sonic somewhere where his kill options become even more limited than usual. Japes is a good palce to play against Sonic because the usual U-Throw -> Uair K.O. won't work due to the very high ceiling, and with Peach getting horizontal K.O.s are harder than usual.

That's all I got... that, and the matchup ratio is a solid 6:4 Peach's favor, nothing more, and nothing less.
Something about the Homing Attack... If he ever really uses it, Peach can do a lot to punish him. Using it as a recovery option is a bad idea, because we can either dodge/get out of range, and he'll fly downward. Alternatively, once you get the timing down, you can hit him with a nair, a possible fair(if you REALLY know the timing), or the very odd usmash if he's too close. There's even a chance you'll hit the big sweetspot.

Oh, and if Sonic EVER gets in grabbing range from his up B, treat him like Snake. He won't regain his up B if you just hold him and let him break free.

Turnips are nice, but Peach's priority is good, too. If you can't toss around turnips, which you probably won't get much chance to do because of Sonic's sheer speed, this is one of those cases where it isn't a complete loss. Both sides are damage builders in this match, and landing KO moves kinda depends on tricking opponents. Peach's priority makes damage-building for her a bit easier in this match, though, and because Sonic is also decently light, unless you don't know what moves of Sonic's can KO, Peach just might have an easier time KOing.

Not by much, mind you, but easier because her aerials, in which bair and nair are decent killers, fair is slower but more powerful, dair shouldn't kill, and uair will have a tough time KOing, too, are all easier to connect with than some of Sonic's. His fsmash is his most powerful smash by far, but with proper spacing is decently easy to avoid(basically our usmash). His usmash is a multi-hit, and can be DI'ed out of. Dsmash is long and only hits once, like Wario's(though not NEARLY as long), so if it's blocked things go badly for Sonic.

On Peach's side, where Sonic has the knowledge of proper spacing since he only has one variety to work with, her fsmash is random. Frying pan will pop him into the air, which is a good thing for us because his speed is severely limited in the air(as well as his options). Tennis racket can kill quick, and golf club can keep him away. The drawback for Peach is it's random, so we can't always rely on it to do what we want like Sonic can. While our dsmash is a multi-hit and is less easy to punish, if Sonic sees it coming or he shields the hits, we're open to be punished. That and there's practically no KO potential unless we somehow stage spike him(aka not gonna happen). Our usmash, which by far outclasses Sonic's in terms of KO potential, is sadly the HARDEST to land on Sonic. We'd have to be really lucky, break his shield, or he HA's/dairs into us. Circumstances like these are so rare that our usmash is practically taken out of the equation, sadly... It'll remain as a highly circumstantial ace in the hole as per usual.

As for gameplay, I'll have to leave that to others. I have yet to face a good Sonic, especially IRL, so any other comparisons I can make would be speculation at best.
I main both characters so I reckon I have a pretty good understanding of this matchup. I've played quite a few of the Sonic mains and I know all Sonic's techs (kind of). I think this match up is 60:40 in Peach's favour. Though, if you don't know what you're doing, it can feel like 70:30 in Sonic's favour

Sonic is fast. Very fast. It is crucial you don't do anything too slow (no pun intended) because Sonic can very easily punish you. You have to play very smart in this match because good Sonic's will have all kinds of trickery up their sleeve. He has a very good grab game. If you do get grabbed, learn to DI. Sonic's Up throw is the most powerful in the game and can be followed up with the embarrasing Up + B ---> Uair kill. DI left or right for that. DI up for his Down throw and start a lot. A lot of Sonic's like to punish a failed tech from their Down Throw via a tech chase with another grab

Sonic's Side B/Down + B are not simply for rolling around - they can be jumped out of and cancelled in a huge variety of ways (see my thread it's number 17). You have to be extremely careful that you don't get baited by Sonic because of Sonic's speed. Fair/Toad/Turnip use will have to be well planned and carefully used because of Sonic's ability to cancel his approaches with ease

Peach's priority trashes Sonic's. Nair (heck, even jab) will hit him out of all his spindashes. Dair will cut through his moves. Peach Bomber will also knock Sonic out of his spindashes but it's a risky move to pull off. Sonic's Homing Attack is his worst enemy in this match up. Nair will hit him out of it and if he tries to hit Peach whsilt she's on the ground, Peach can land her Up Smash on him (believe me, it won't be the sourspot)

A very very very common thing that all Sonic's do now and then is to use their Up + B (Spring) and then use Dair which will make them land on the ground again (lagless if timed right). Abuse this by either Up Tilting them out of the Dair or grab them when they land! Throw Turnips up in the air if you have them in hand

Gimping Sonic is not going to happen often since he has very good recovery. Turnips are pretty much useless. You can do the grab trick if Sonic is near the edge. If he's recovering from below, predict where he'll spring up and start a Float and get ready to hit him out of his Up + B. You have to outright kill Sonic as gimping is hard to do...unfortunetly, landing a kill move on Sonic is hard. Fair is too slow a lot of the time

One of the most irritating things Sonic can do (and indeed a lot of other characters) is continually space aerials (in this case, Sonic's Bair). It has surprising range so watch out. Jump up and Toad it if he gets sloppy or outrange it with your Fair, or go for the good old F Tilt. Peach's Bair will trade hits with Sonic's Bair


This match up is about being smart and making the right choices. If you rush in, you'll get owned. Personally, I sometimes like to try and play Sonic's at their own game (e.g. grab use, baiting)
Watch Sonic's fall animation after he's used his Up + B. You'll notice it's different - he spins around rather than falls normally

When he is in this state he cannot use any of his B moves. He can't use his Spin Dash or his Spin Charge or Homing attack or his Spring again when he's in this state unless

- He gets hit (hence why Turnip gimping is useless vs Sonic as Spring recovery >>>> Turnip knockback)
- He gets Footstooled
- He grabs the ledge

Grabbing a Sonic and forcing him to air trip will very very very rarely ever happen thanks to Spinshot, Fair use to help him move forward and (lolno) Homing attack I guess. Most Sonic's only use Spring as recovery as a last resort

Speaking of Spring, don't be an idiot and immediatly drop down from your returning platform when you lose a stock back onto the stage, only to see yourself zooming sky high into the air because Sonic planted a grounded Spring underneath you
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-Squirtle-:squirtle: 55-45
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Discussion: Posts 1718 - 1760

What to Watch out For:
-Excellent air game
-Strong D Throw
-Strong Up Smash and F Smash. F Smash has Super Armour frames
-Jab locks

Matchup Mentality:
-Tech on the floor so Squirtle doesn't get a chance to get a Jab lock on you
-Use Bair to stop Squirtle's approaches
-Space well and make good use of Turnips
-Watch out for Hydroplane. Squirtle has a very pivot which allows him to slide all over the place with his Up Smash. Many Squirtle's will try to catch you off guard with this. Squirtle's pivot also allows him to slide around and get grabs/pivot grabs in. Remember, Squirtle does not have invincibilty frames when doing this so feel free to hit him out of it
-Squirtle is light. Fair is a good killer in this match
-Avoid getting grabbed at high percents. Squirtle's D Throw when he's not fatigued is a good killer
-Squirtle has a very good Glide Toss which can lead into all sorts of Up Smash/grab attacks. If he catches one of your Turnips, watch out for a Glide Toss

Did you know?
-Peach can force an air grab release on Squirtle. When Squirtle is released, Peach can follow up with a dash attack 100% of the time
-Like all of Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon, Squirtle suffers from fatigue. Whenever a fresh Pokémon is sent in, the Pokémon will have exactly 2:00 minutes until they become tired and fatigued. Whenever the Pokémon performs a Smash Attack, Aerial Attack, Special Move, or Tilt Attacks, exactly 0:01 second will be removed from the Pokemon’s current 2:00 timer. Running, Walking, Jumping, and Throwing has no effect on the timer. Fatigue reduces the attack power and knockback of moves
-Squirtle's Side B (Withdraw) has the most bizzare priority ever. If you hit him in it, he'll simply be knocked the other way. However, if you footstool Squirtle during his Side B, he flips over and wriggles around. He is helpless and can't do anything until he flips himself back over

Quotes:

A good squirtle can stay toe to toe with a good peach. They are basically dead even in everything except killing power. Squirtle has a real hard time killing in general. Do smart floats every now and then or else you'll constantly eat squirtles fair. Throw many turnips, space appropriately and always tech to make sure you don't get jab locked. At high percentages, one good fair or fsmash will more then likely be enough to stock squirtle.
Squirtle - Back air, back air, back air. You need to it to beat his aerials and approaches. Ground floated back airs are good to stop his hydroplaney thingey approachey. If you see him coming , a ground floated back air hits him out of it. If he reverses direction to dodge it, by the time he can come back again you land to cancel the lag from the back air and can start up a new one. I developed this idea pretty recently and it works quite well. Don't forget the release grab chain grab (though I'm not sure if its gauranteed I think it is), it'll help recharge your moves. Turnips are crucial too since he doesn't have an actual projectile.
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-Toon Link- :toonlink: 40-60
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Discussion: Posts 828 - 935

What to Watch out For:
-Huge variety of projectiles that include a boomerang, bombs and arrows
-Good aerial game
-His Up Smash which is his main killer comes out quick and can be used whilst sliding across the stage (Running upsmash)
-His Zair (it's much shorter than other characters though)
-Good recovery
-His Dair sends him straight downwards, can spike in the air and will bounce off your sheild for a 2nd hit

Matchup Mentality:
-Dair can cancel out his projectiles
-Do not be afraid to approach Toon Link, sheild his projectiles and don't let yourself get pinned down
-Never abuse Floating! Toon Link's giant array of projectiles and good air game will knock you out of the sky
-Always be prepared for his Up Smash, it's his main killer
-Toad his projectiles if you are close enough
-Never attempt to Fair him whilst he is still in Uair/Dair animation. You'll trade hits and you'll often get it worse

Did you know?
-If you get hit by the first hit of Toon Link's F Smash, you can hold the jump to start Floating and you won't get hit by the 2nd hit of his F Smash
-If you sheild Toon Link's Dair, he will bounce off and you can be hit by a slightly weaker part of Dair whilst his sword is still sticking out. Never Toad this and keep your sheild for the whole time
-Up Tilt will beat out his Dair but the timing is difficult

Quotes:


Now as for the match up, I say TL has the advantage. For this you have to be balanced in both offense and defense. If not, get to work. Your air game here will be limited. So a good ground game is a must.

TL is a light character, so if you don't abuse your kill moves alot, he wont be hard to kill. But you fall in that position as well.

If he is camping you block a projectile and run out of your shield to get close or glide toss. When you do, he will have to fight you off so get ready for that. Also if you see him shooting projectiles, Don't always try to get a turnip, you be in risk of getting hit. I see this alot from Peach players. Only do it if he is far away.

Bonus tip- When TL Has a bomb in his had, he can not use any Normal attacks. Air or ground. So keep that in mind.
Okaayyyy ummmm....Peach's Floating Dair causes TL problems because theres really nothing he can do about it other then retreat. Utilt doesn't quite reach a floating Peach if she spaces right. >_< I usually jump back and throw a boomerang after Peach uses her Dair the first time.

honestly all of Peach's floating gives TL problems. It makes him play a lot more defensively. Expect a lot of projectiles.

Both have some problems killing, but Peach kills better horizontally with her Fair. Counterpick levels where its easy to kill horizontally, but not vertically (TL usually kills vertically with his Usmash). Jungle Japes perhaps would be a good level.

Peach can do something like float->Dair->Dair->Fair, land, use jab attack and she should be pretty safe if she spaces correctly.

Peach's glide toss is awesome. Use it to cancel Toon's projectiles when you approach/retreat.

You can glide toss TL's bombs. A SH Fair or Uair would be a good follow up after hitting TL with one of his own bombs.
Umm... Both characters have good recoverys, Peach's being better of course. Edge guard with moves that will force TL to recover high, so you can punish him. I'm pretty sure you can let go of he ledge, float, and Dair to prevent TL from grabbing the edge. (might even turn into a stagespike)

In the Air, TL probably wins. Just space with floating as much as you can.

So yeah...kill him before he kills you pretty much. And watch out for his projectiles.
Floating and dairing is "super effective" as Pokemon Trainer would say, but if you abuse it he can shift tactics (more zair and usmash). You can punish those tactic shifts if you're not getting predictable though.
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-Wario-:wario: 60-40
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Discussion: Posts 542-646

Rediscussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224503

What to Watch out For:
-The Waft. It takes two minutes to build up. Insane kill power, huge percentage damage
-Wario has massive aerial control and can autocancel/has no lag on most aerials. This combination makes it tough to grab a good, smart wario.
-Forward smash has some slight super armor even if you hit him you get hit through it.
-The bite has reallllyyyy high priority
-Auto combo: down air to bite into other follow-ups

Matchup Mentality:
-Bair camp him. To do this, jump into the air and just as you've reached the highest height of your short hop and are falling down, use Bair and move away. For a mix up, start a Float or 2nd jump and Bair or even another aerial. The idea is to get Wario guessing, hit him out of any attempts to approach whilst avoiding punihsment and getting grabbed
-Wario recovers with his bike, so don’t destroy it, so you can get gimps. If he does use his bike he will pop out a certain distance above it. Learn that distance and punish.
-You can do a good job of outranging his attacks if you space. Bair is very useful in this match
-Use lots of turnips, he doesn’t have a projectile, gain position advantage
-Find a way to get a grab for release grab combos and kills. Don't go spamming grabs when he's at a high percent as you leave yourself wide open for punishment
-Bait some aerials out. Forward air is really good and if you are under him , he can’t do much about up air, goes through whatever he has if he’s above you.

Did you know?
-You can release grab combo Wario. Just grab, don’t mash him the instant that he’s going to break out, and you can follow with an upsmash, or any aerial. Do double hit n-air or back airs at lower percents, and upsmash for the kill
-Wario will flash a brownish colour when his Waft is fully charged

Quotes:
3GOD said:
Shield grabbing a good Wario is pretty much not gonna happen (maybe 1 or 2 times per match). He will either get behind your shield or just Chomp you for attempting to shield grab.

Peach's best option for grabbing is probably Jab --> Grab, but even that can be difficult to land. If Peach can catch Wario shielding, autocancel Fair --> Jab --> Grab works great; but again, a good Wario will know to avoid staying still (shielding) for more than a couple of frames in this match-up.

Wario's Uair is great for juggling, and I'm pretty sure it will beat Peach's Dair most of the time. I think they go pretty even in the air since Peach can do things like Dair --> Dair --> Uair/Nair/Fair/Bair. Wario has similar aerial combos on Peach at low %s...for example, full jump Dair --> fast fall Uair --> full jump Dair --> another aerial maybe...this combo can easily deal 40 to 50%.

Obviously, Peach has a better ground game in general thanks to her great jab and good tilts, but Wario does have a slightly better grab range (pretty insignificant though) and good Fsmash.

And of course, when it comes time for KOing, Wario has the Waft, Uair, and powerful Fsmash for KOs just like Peach has Fair and grab release --> Usmash. Waft is probably the easiest/safest of these to land in an actual match, but I think that Peach's grab release --> Usmash is good enough that it makes this match-up dead even...

...one thing I completely forgot about is Turnips. Good use of turnips may be enough to slightly tip the match-up to Peach's favor, but I think that Wario's ability to weave around so much will still keep it pretty much 50-50.
55-45 Peach's favor IMO. Wario's got a lot on Peach; his aerial mobility is godly and really annoying.

He can punish autocancelled fairs on shield that you'd normally be safe from by fsmashing- you'll trade hits, since he gets super armor, and it's a profitable trade for him. His weight and ability to outspace your kill moves will make it hard to land kills.

Avoid his dair and uair, and that Bite is really, really annoying.

The key is the grab release- it demolishes Wario. When I played FICTION, I'd grab release him at low percents to nair, and past 90%, pummel once, then release to usmash for a free kill.

However, Peach can also grab release to footstool to float to unsweetspotted bair for lock to regrab for a chain grab on stages like FD, I'm just out of practice on it (and most Wario's will ban FD). Additionally, I've been told Peach can grab release Wario to double-hit-floated-nair for 20% damage.

Problem is, Wario is the character in this game best suited to avoid ever getting grabbed. And that's the key. You have two good ways to approach this matchup:

A) Make it clear you want the grab, but then dropping your pattern and punishing his best choice to avoid a grab- lands you a lot of free hits, because given a choice between getting hit by a fair or getting grabbed, he'll always take the fair.

B) Don't try for the grab at all, hope he gets lazy, then when he's spacing to avoid attacks, grab.

I usually go for option A. I was probably too aggressive when fighting FICTION in our MM's, and he probably should have camped me more too, but it was very interesting. It was really hard to grab him.

One thing I figured out near the end; we all know that jab-grab is not inescapable, but the window in which to spotdodge is VERY tight, only a few frames. Most players will get grabbed more times than not if you jab-grab. FICTION was the ONLY player at BIO2 that consistently spotdodged every time, and he HAD to spotdodge every time, because if he didn't, the consequences of a jab were terrifying.

I realized during the last match that if I simply jab > fsmash or jab SH Dair...spotdodge would get *****, and Wario couldn't take the risk of getting grabbed, so he'd just have to eat it.

So my advice would be: establish a pattern of going for jab-grabs. When they get in the habit of spotdodging every time, alternate with jab-fsmash, jab-dair, or even just jab and chase if he's trying to roll or something. I dunno if Wario has other options other than spotdodging that'll avoid the grab in time. Worth testing. It's also worth noting that if your opponent IS NOT FICTION, they'll probably not be able to avoid the jab-grab consistently, so it's probably worthwhile to go for it xD

Peach's autocancelling nature and jab game give her a better chance of getting grabs than most characters, and the fact that her ground game is heavily based on anti-air helps against an aerial character like Wario. However, her lack of kill power and the fact that Wario can outspace all her kill moves will cause a lot of problems if you aren't able to land a grab (which is VERY possible with a character like Wario).
Jab > Grab really isn't that hard to avoid if you either a) buffer spotdodges instinctively when you're within kill range or b) space so that you're not close enough to be jabbed in the first place :p

This matchup is way too even for any advantage for either side to matter. Peach has very good aerials but so does Wario. Wario's bite beats a lot of what Peach does, but her fair outranges it. Her fair also reaches above her (similar to Marth's fair), and that's always a pain for us Wario players. Your dair is an OK move here, but it's not too hard for us to SDI out and avoid followups b/c of our aerial movement. Both our nairs wreck, lol.

Don't expect to land any locks on us. After grabs we're used to SDIing to the sides, so should you footstool, we'll be SDIing that as well, making it pretty hard for you to land that weak bair hit. Your smashes outrange ours, and fsmash also does a sweep above Peach (ugh -_-). Don't DSMASH EVER, unless you want to be SDId into a WAFT TO THE FACE. Your upsmash wrecks. Our uptilt/upsmash will beat out any non-fair approach, they're stupidly high priority for whatever reason. Watch out for up-angled ftilts, that move actually kills earlier than you'd expect.

If a Wario likes to fsmash a lot it consider it free dash grabs out of shield.

Our waft destroys you guys, as does our upair, whereas we can live upwards of 160 consistently.

I call it even, the fight is annoying for both parties, though, lol.

Oh, and Bfield is a good stage fir you here, you can camp under a platform quite easily with fair, since it sweeps above you. Flat stages are good as well, but expect us to be extra cautious/campy on them. I honestly don't know where to cp peach aside from maybe Japes or RC.
You can back air camp Wario. Try it. Just float and save your jump. If he comes aligned with you back air him, if he goes higher, float away, use that second jump and back air. Trust me, you can back air camp him. I do this and it's extremely hard for him to get a hit in. Basically both characters can camp each other but Peach has the favor in the matchup because she has turnips to hit him. Predict where he's gonna go and throw a turnip there, then try to guess where he'll go to avoid it and attack and pressure that area. These matches last a looooong time.
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-Wolf-:wolf: 45-55
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Discussion: Posts 687 - 752

What to Watch out For:
-His blaster camping
-his smashes move him a lot and have wayyy more range than yours
-his recovery can spike
-Wall of back airs, wall of lots of moves. His range bugs a lot.
-He will shine whenever you get close

Matchup Mentality:
-Be patient and watch out for that range, find a way to get your down air combos in
-You want gimps in this matchup - with moves that send at odd angles (like racket) or by edgeguarding
-Neutral air out prioritizes his recovery
-Short hop Back airs can be useful though not totally reliable
-Chaingrab him ata low percents but watch out, if you aren't on frame he can shine out of it.

Did you know?
-Throwing turnips up can really mess up his approach due to him worrying about them when he reflects way too often/early. Good scaredsies tool.
-Can't let you do that, Star Fox...
-Lylat cruise is a great stage against him, especially his recovery
-his reflector is used as a 'counter' type move since it comes out quickly in 6 frames and messes up your setups

Quotes:
this match up i think is in wolfs favor. a smart wolf can pick peach right out of the sky with a sweetspoted side b. or a auto canceled fair or even his blaster. so it limits peaches maneuverability in the air and forces her to fight on the ground, and wolf's ground game is much better than peaches so it can be tricky. plus his bair can outreach and comes out faster than most of peachs aerials and it is quite spammable (so your really only options when he is bairing you is eather airdodge away or toad him).
and i think it was mentioned alittle earlier, but wolfs shine can beat out a usmash mostly cause it has a few invincibility frames, so if timed right wolf will go right through peach and can get a free hit off her (note im speculating i havent had time to test this). also due to peaches light weight, his smashes are more able for killing her. also if peach fails to autocancel an aerial. wolf has a free fsmash or dsmash depending on the situation. also if peach toads a wolf using reflector, its gonna go right back at her.

but its not like a omg lose for peach is inevitable matchup, peach can do some nasty stuff to wolf as well. she can dair him at least 3 times and still beable to follow up with a nair or uair (at low percents of course) she has the chaingrab to 30 ish percent, utilt out prioritizing most of wolfs air game when hes above her, and on platforms too. and she can be a total ***** to wolf and gimp him at rediculously low percents, all you need to do is get him off the stage, float right next to the ledge and when he recovers just grab the ledge and down goes wolf.

@praxis. even though peachs fair can outreach a bair from wolf. he will be able to bair way her before she hits him, bair has almost no starting lag. but it does outrange his bair by alittle bit

but overall i think this match up is maybe a 60-40 or a 55-45 wolf
I'd say this is fairly even. Yoshi's Bair approach is pretty annoying, but if you SDI out of it I think it becomes less of a problem. Correct me if Im wrong but Yoshi can't kill really easily like Peach. However, at high percents you want to watch out for Fsmash, Usmash, and Uair (good killer). His Dair is a nice damage racker but really easy to SDI out of, his tilts are all pretty good. I think his Dash Attack has invicibility frames around his head (had them in Melee, not sure about Brawl)? His Fair has a little surprise spike to it incase you didnt know. Eggs can be annoying but I think powersheilding them can solve this.
:yoshi: Peach is fun to fight! A real challenging matchup on its own merits.

Peach should definitely abuse jabs out of floats more than she does with other characters since we can't shieldgrab them like other characters, but any chase game she has can be quickly turned around on her by pivot grab (LOL! Get it?). Both characters have lots going for them in this matchup and it's tough to call for an advantage on either side because Yoshi darn near lives forever and Peach doesn't get edgeguarded easily. I'm interested to see what the Peach players who have played Yoshis think.
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-Zelda-:zelda: 65-35
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Discussion: Posts 1275-1347

What to Watch out For:
-Powerful Smash attacks. D Smash comes out quick, F Smash hits hard and Up Smash can't be DI'ed out of
-Reflector, long range projectile (Din's Fire)
-Decent air game
-Incredibly powerful aerials when sweetspotted (Lightning Kicks). Dair is a spike
-Strong tilts. D Tilt can cause tripping

Matchup Mentality:
-Bait and punish. That's the absolute crux of this match up
-Don't be predictable
-WATCH YOUR FLOATING DAIRS! Zelda's Up Smash will obliterate you if you aren't careful. You can't realistically DI out of it and it will stop or at least clash with all your aerials. It's also a good killer
-Make sure your spacing is perfect or you'll get punished
-Use Floating to bait a mistake but watch out for Zelda's aerials and sweetspotted lightning kicks which kill really early
-Use Turnips. OoS Turnips and Glide Tossing defensivly are essential
-Keep your shield in good condition. Space with Turnips and get some distance so you can replenish your shield
-If you shield Zelda's Smash attacks, keep your shield held down and punish afterwards. OoS Turnips are good for punishing her F Smash and Up Smash
-When recovering, never airdodge Din's Fire. Use Nair instead as it will cancel it out and reduces nearly all risk of getting hit. Use Toad if you're high up in the air
-DI away from Zelda's D Tilt and watch out for follow ups
- Watch how Zelda recovers. Her Up + B has a hitbox when Zelda reappears. Zelda has noticable ending lag and her Up + B cannot maneuver very well. Capitalize on this. If she looks like she's going for the ledge, edgehog her. If you predict where she is going to go, you can hit her with an Up Smash (charged if you know where she's going to go) as she reappears

Did you know?
-Zelda can transform into Shiek by using her Down + B
-Down Tilt actually has a use in this match! Peach's D Tilt will go underneath Zelda's Up Smash and hit her. It also outranges Zelda's D Tilt and is good against spaced Lightning Kicks. It won't do much good against spaced F Smashes though. Try it out sometime!

Quotes:

zelda kills peach early and outranges her on the ground. other than that, this is peach's game to lose. peach's float and umbrella as recoveries are din's bait, but that normally doesn't kill.

*shrugs*

peach just plain baits zelda better than just about anyone else and has some really nice options for punishing when she does. unless zelda can majorly win the mental game, peach has the edge. I also think peach has better counterpicking options in this matchup.

if peach didn't have that **** float technique, this would be easy, but it's too hard to punish that approach unless you predict what she's going to do out of it. because we can conter about anything you CAN do... but we HAVE to know WHAT you are going to do BEFORE you do it.
As for Zelda, she has a lot of stuff that kills Peach, and messes up Peach's flow, but if you change your style for this matchup I find it to be a very easy matchup. And I will say easy with confidence. I basically hold a turnip, and get Zelda nervous with it in my hand. She will respond one of two ways

(1) Try to reflect it
(2) Try to avoid it

Zelda doesn't manuever very well. If she's trying to avoid it, she often leaves herself open for other attacks. What you want to do is throw a turnip OVER her and if she tries to reflect it, you punish instead. Other times throw it right at , or drop it. You basically play this matchup as a bait and punish. Do not approach, do not aggress. Simply use turnips and float movements to wait for her to make a move. Her movements options are limited so you can capitalize on ANY reaction she makes, whether its using a move, dodging, or whatnot. Camp, play defensively. Smash DI out of her smash attack as much as you can.

Approach her from above at low percents , if you get a down air combo in good, but if you don't her upsmash will be weakened making it much harder to kill you at a higher percent with her main move degerated. Zelda doesn't have many multi hit or strings of attacks, so if she weakens that move just once or twice, it's going to be weakened for a VERY long time because it will take a long time for her to use 9 moves on you to fully recharge it again. It's a viable strategy I use. I see this matchup as 55-45 in Peach's advantage. I agree with kataefi that a good zelda may or may not fall for these baits, and can use better out of shield optoinis then just upsmash, so it could pull the matchup closer to 50-50. I find myself struggling on defining this matchup because I see that Zelda can do a lot to Peach but I found a personal playstyle that just wrecks Zelda, but I don't know how to factor that into it.

You don't need to approach Zelda. She has to approach you because you have baiting options. She DOESN"T have baiting options. You can float, throw out aerials that autocancel, throw turnips in random places, and wait for her to react or try to reflect a turnip. You do not need to approach. You can't camp her in the traditional sense, but you can get her to fall for your baits a LOT because if you really understand Zelda she's quite limited - she cannot bait very well. Basically, try to follow her patterns as much as possible. There isn't much she can do to 'mix it up" so try to find her pattern as much as you can, unlike Peach who IMO is one of the best characters at mixing up what exactly she's gonna do because her float, glide toss, down air and ground approaches together. IMO Zelda is bad against characters when she can't track their movements, and thats what you have to focus on doing. Luigi's mansion I find doesn't effect the matchup much, you are as good on that stage as Zelda is.
Videos:
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-Zero Suit Samus-:zerosuitsamus: 50-50
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Discussion: Posts 1347-1457

What to Watch out For:
-1 frame jab
-Strong aerials
-Strong Down + B spike which also acts as another jump for recovery
-High jumps and a tether recovery
-Variety of stunning moves
-Side B which has good range and the tip is powerful
-Armour pieces which she gets at the start of every game

Matchup Mentality:
-Use her armour pieces against her. Throw them away if they are doing more harm than good
-Make good use of SH Dairs and OoS attacks
-If ZSS attacks Peach with a dash attack, shield it and punish it by grabbing her or dash attacking her
-Shield her Side B and attack by with a Glide Tossed Turnip
-Use Turnips for approaching
-Be wary of using Floating as an approach. ZSS has plenty of options to knock Peach out of the air, mainly in the form of her Side B
-If ZSS tries to juggle you, get back on the ground as quickly as you can but don't leave yourself open

Did you know?
-Her D Smash is a stunner which can set you up for a kill. Mix up how you DI from her D Smash to avoid getting killed all the time
-If you use a spaced Peach Bomber, you will go straight past the ZSS' Side B and hit her. The Bomber will only go through the tail end of her Side B. If Peach gets caught in the middle of ZSS' Side B when using the Peach Bomber, she will be hit by the weaker part of the whip and most likely get hit by the tail end as well
-Do not understimate ZSS' recovery just because of her tether. Be careful you don't get spiked by her Down + B when going head on for the gimp
-If you get spiked, you can DI sharply towards the side/bottom of some stages and tech against them. This may save your life

Quotes:


Peach has a good pressure came on ZSS and can stay on her pretty well. For Her F-B spacing, Timed glide tosses can stop that. ot snipe her on the head with a turnip.

Her Lazer is not that good, For Its slow, does not have much distances and lags her. Timed SH>Dairs kill that game right there. And her Dair goes throw her Upsmash/up-b. Yes it does. One for like a sec worth of the attack. if you stay in her umpsmash for too long, your Dair will be beaten by the on going upsmash animation. The attack is a multi hitter. So once you hit her Upsmash/Up-B with her dair, make sure you break through it and get to ZSS before your proirity dies.

Short hop Dairs can screw up most of her stuff and set ups if you are near her. Don't do it from distances, you will eat a spaced F-B She may have more range than you but its slow. you have less range but yours is quick. Input good speed and timing when you attack or glide toss and you can get her before she gets you.

To approach her, glide tossing is the best way to go.if she short hops it, and you glide toss at the right time, you can hit her lower part of her body and attack her out of it. If not full or short hop and throw one at her. all you need is one turnip and you can stop just about what she does and follow up quick.

If ZSS gets you in the air, don't try fighting with her up there. you have a new mission now. It's to land safe on the ground. Forget trying to hit her while you land. You Can Dair her Up-air and beat it if well timed. But I rather not take that risk too often.

Edgeguarding her is one of her fears since you can gimp her. or force her to recover in a way you want to and punish from there. Snipe her with turnips and force that D-B out of her. Then time a good edgehog and its over.

Here is a lil edgeguard trick I just thought about while making this post. If she grabs the edge with her weapon and is hanging by it. Do Below the edge or on the side of it and Dair. She would com eup at one point and timed right, she will be hit by a dair and maybe a possible stage spike.

ZSS love to Dash attack>uptilt or Dash attack>jab. So for this matter, Float out of your shield to Nairs or Bairs. or jab out of your shield/ reverse jab out of your shield. Thats a 2 frame attack you have out of your shield right there.

If he is spacing her moves, don't stay inside her too much. It is sometimes heard to punish out of the shield with her F-B and N-B. Have a turnip ready to stop all of this then go in there and do you justice.
This match up is hard to explain for me. I honestly think I've been fighting the match up wrong, or if not it's at least about even for Peach. I've been trying to play a bit campy like I do against a lot of other characters :(

Peach seems to break ZSS' spacing without too much trouble with her turnips, range, and grab game. I think the ZSS should be using her fast attacks (tilts,jabs, and up air) a lot here

ZSS' speed is a big problem for Peach though, especially while she's in the air. Peach's d-air seems to always stop ZSS' up-B so at least she can't be caught from that high up. ZSS' up air when spaced very well at least trades hits with the d-air so that can be used to KO. If she d-airs over ZSS' head, ZSS can up tilt Peach. Although if Peach moves away from her before the d-air ends this can be avoided (but won't lead in to anything).
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EdreesesPieces

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EdreesesPieces
#3
Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion. Week 17: Pikachu (Congrats to Obama!)

HIGHLIGHTING QUOTES FROM OTHER THREADS:

Week 1 Snake:

That's the reason Peach's have such a hard time against Snake. Snake is even more defensive than Peach. His tilts don't work when he's moving, so it's much better for a Snake player to litter the stage with traps and get you to come to him. The difference between Peach and Snake is that, thanks to the Snakedash, Snake can continue being on the defensive WHILE ATTACKING. Snakedash into your opponent and defend yourself with usmash while you slide and then start tilting. It's a vicious combination.

Unlike Meta, Snake's got a LOT of open spots that can be exploited if you figure out his defensive pattern and alternate between aggressive and defensive play. Play defensively till a hole opens up and then go extremely aggressive. Why do I say extremely? Because once Snake's in the air, he's at a huge disadvantage and you have to exploit it as much as possible before he gets himself settled and still on the ground where he can tilt you.

I do agree that Snake's KO power is very frustrating compared to Peach's lack of it, but Peach can combo Snake very, very well and get that damage up fast, and he IS gimpable in a non-traditional way.

I'm going to write a Snake guide at some point I guess. But some main things to pay attention to:

1) Peach's Bair erases Snake's usmash. If he Snakedashes and you're short on time, Bair it. It'll erase the missle and knock him out of the Snakedash.

2) Peach's Dair will pull Snake out of a Snakedash if used right, and Snake is VERY easily combo'd. I can do ~40-50% starting damage on Kamaji if I get him in a Dair initially. Dair is your best friend in this fight, and easily your best approach (or float to Fair).

3) Peach's Fair is excellent for Snakes who erect a usmash wall (constantly usmash). As soon as a Snake usmashes, learn the amount of time you have, jump in their and hit him with a fair and back out before the missle lands. Do it ASAP because after he ends his firing animation he can utilt you into the missle if you get too close.

4) Once you get a Snake off of the stage go crazy aggressive. Don't necessarily chase after them but rain turnips off of the stage. The moment a Snake up-B's they are INCREDIBLY vulnerable to Peach. Peach's fair knocks him out of the up-B, and the Snake can't actually attack you back without dropping the up-B and not getting it back (thus dying), so he generally has to just take the hit. Throwing turnips will keep him from getting back with his second jump and force him to use up-B, at which point you chase after him and do as much damage as possible (or grab him if he passes a ledge). Kamaji figured this out fast and always recovers high, but then I can engage him in the air as he falls. Uair to Nair works pretty well- if he aerial dodges the uair the nair gets him.

5) Remember the grab trick! Grab snake out of his up-B on a ledge and let him get out on his own without doing any damage.

6) Send every uncooked grenade back at him. Cook the grenades yourself if you have time. It'll make him think twice about using grenades.

7) Snakes expect you to be afraid of their C4. Don't be. While you shouldn't stand on it alone, if Snake's using it as cover just dive into it. He's not going to blow himself up too and you can always float over the C4 or air dodge when he goes "NOW". They're often thrown for a loop if you aggressively dive past the C4 and pound on them because they expect it to give them some breathing room. Instead, KEEP the fight by the C4, throw the Snake at the C4, and keep him in the air as long as possible.

8) KEEP HIM IN THE AIR. Snake's going to try to land as soon as he can, so take advantage of that (dash attack him right before he touches the ground, for example). As long as he's in the air, you have the advantage. Just don't get so aggressive that you jump in front of his Fair and get spiked.

9) Turnips. Use them wisely, but don't abuse them. Snake punishes the glide toss with his ftilt way too easily so don't glidetoss into his face. Throw turnips at range when he's playing defensively, then switch from turnips to aggressive mode when he makes a slip. Once you get him off a ledge launch turnips like a madman to force his angle of approach and make him come on low so you can get a good shot at him when he up-B's.

10) Go for the gimp kills. Grab him out of the cypher, or keep Fairing him out of the cypher till he can't make it up. You may or may not knock him off the side but you can prevent his recovery over and over till he falls off the bottom.


That's how I do it, anyway :) Hope it helps someone.
I play Snake different from most People I guess. I play a straight hit and run game.

I'll use turnips when I can to cut down his field control. and at the same time move in. But not too much. Cause He has range with his Ftilt and even uptilts. So I pay close attention to that. Then I Space a few attacks like Jabs and Fairs. Even back airs. That reduces the risk of me being hit with a Ftilt or up tilt.

Then If I make an opening and can take it, Thats when I switch from defense to offese mode. I'll go wild on snake and pound his *** as much as I can as long as I have him in my range. If he breaks free or gets an attack off me, I GTFO. I leave him alone and go back to defense. Cause now Snake is on the defense. And will set up his field control. So you can just get to him that easy.

Its up to you once again to break his field control and when you get close and have an open shot, pound him. This is how I play Snake. I have to rotate my offense and defense game. And I can play both equally well at that. Snakes are not that hard to me. I dont find snake that Hard to me Cause of the strats I have on aprroaching him, defending against myself, and breaking his field control. And I have beaten Snakes at tournaments alot.

The thing is with me, the way snakes Play, thats nearly how I play against him as Peach.
Week 2 Metaknight

Space yourself for F-smash as MUCH as possible, lol. Feel free to spam it as hes not much of a punisher.

HUGE protip - if you're on the ground and see tornado, ROLL back and charge f-smash. It goes through. THIS IS KEY to beating metaknight as he will be scared to use tornado because your frying pan actually does kill him when charged up like that.

Also back air is your chance at outprioritizing him in the air. It cancels out with his glide attack, even. And trades hits with alot of what he does. If you're trading hits with metaknight you are winning because hes so light. So use that back air.

Oh and tempt him into using down smash and forward smash. Use your second jump but don't use your float quite yet, and fall right next to him, and use your float right before you land. Metaknights tend to wait for people to land then use forward or downsmash by spacing themselves, By saving your float you will bait him into this then you can down air to up air combo him.

I realized if I treat this matchup like I'm facing Sheik in Melee, I can do well. Basically, metaknights are very cocky - they know they have a good moveset, so they try to use their speed. By making them flinch or attack too early and making yourself look open, they'll go for it asap. Bait them alot into these situations. Try to make yourself look open when you're not. (Like Forward smashing to f-tilt when they try to punish)
i main metaknight. and his dsmash is definitely his most reliable kill move. unlike this guy i save it up until my opponent is damaged enough for a quick kill. which i would think is hard for brdy because of diminishing returns. try to stay floating alot because mk's dsmash cannot hit above it. used your turnips for spacing since he has no projectiles.
Final Destination and Battle Field are certainly in favor of Meta Knight. Pokemon Stadium (Melee) and Yoshi's Island stages don't allow metaknight to glide underneath the stage, however.

Hopefully we can analyze Meta Knight patterns to come up with exploits. As of now, I can't really word apparent patterns of Metas.

Toading is absolutely necessary, specially when recovering from the sides. But it can't be abused because it would just make it predictable. I didn't find the parasol useful at all-- you get punished for using it.
 
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#5
Here's a video of one of the best combos to hit a Snake with when the match starts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jxblkSXYhY


Dark.Pch's style sounds very similar to mine in the Snake fight. Use turnips but don't glide toss into his face since he'll tilt you, throw all of his uncooked grenades back at him, block cooked grenades with turnips or shield, and play defensive till an opening arises. Openings can be a Snakedash (breakable by Bair or a well-timed Dair), a usmash (you can slip a Fair in during the animation lag as he fires one off), or simply Snake walking (he can't tilt by moving). Then go aggressive and combo him till he gets back on the ground, then get out of the way once he is standing still.


Half the reason I have little problem with Snakes is that I secondaried Snake for the first month of Brawl. I never realized how good his tilts were so I focused on clever trap placement, so I got grenade and C4 timing perfectly and played based on traps. So now I'm very good at figuring out how Snakes control the field, the tilts are the annoying part.

Don't be afraid of his traps. Learn the size of the C4 hitbox, and you can float over it. Snakes will often throw you at the C4 and detonate, but Peach can hover before she hits the ground and the C4 will just explode under you unless its on a platform.

Also, WATCH OUT for C4 on platforms like battlefield. The hitbox extends WAY under the platforms. Just remember that a Snake will never detonate a C4 if he's right by it too so as long as you're both fighting near the C4, you're safe. If you knock the Snake back or he runs, shield or get out of the way.



Here's an older writeup from another thread as a response to someone's questions.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169907

The trick is to learn to play his explosives game better than he can. Learn how much time it takes for a Snake player to detonate a bomb after he drops it, how long his "Now" animation is, how long his grenades take to explode, the changes in Snake's animation when he's carrying a grenade, etc. Snake players will usually toss grenades at you, then stop and pull a grenade and hold it and throw it right before it explodes and hope it blows up the first grenade with it.

Learn to time how his grenades and you know exactly how long you have until they explode. If you have time, grab the grenade, hold it until the right time, and throw it back. In fact, sometimes this will blow up the next grenade he's throwing at you and hit him. When he places bombs, don't be afraid, learn the hitbox size and you can float right over them- he'll usually detonate them thinking he's got you and the explosion won't touch you. If you just make sure you're not predictable (he has to detonate the bombs in advance by a second) you won't get hit and in fact I like to fight NEAR the bombs because then he has to worry about not blowing himself out. And it's easy to psych him out into premature detonations.

The hardest thing he's got is the dash-cancelled-usmash. Learn the timings of his usmash. If you're far away when he does it, just get out of the way- jumping over it means you'll be hit. If he's close to you, jump up and Dair as he passes beneath you or Bair while moving backwards. You should be able to hit him out of the dash cancel. Get good enough with it and he'll be afraid to dash cancel, which means you win.

Also, if he Usmashes, you can usually Fair him out of it. Think of his Usmash as an open spot. The animation is slow- get in there and hit him and get out before the missle comes back down.


Fair him out of his usmash. Fair him out of his up-B if he does it high. If he does it near the ledge, grab him. You all know the grab kill trick for snake, right? Grab him and don't do any damage and don't throw and he doesn't get his up-B back.


Turnips: Toss them at him to rush his recovery when he's off the stage. Don't glide toss into him cause he'll tilt you to death, and it's better to grab his grenades and throw them back at him than use your own projectiles at a distance. The real trick is get him into the air. His aerials suck.


Edgeguarding a snake is actually REALLY easy to me. Just go after him. The moment he up-B's he either HAS to absorb any hit you throw, or drop the up-B. A lot of times they'll just just to let you hit them with Fair. And remember to GRAB him if he up-B's near the ledge and don't do any damage, let him break out of it with no damage done.


Yeah, never, ever approach Snake on a ground level. Dair's work well with proper spacing, Fair works VERY well at certain times.

As for who the matchup is in favor of- if you play with the right playstyle, I'd say dead even or Peach's advantage. I mean, I keep up with Kamaji's snake, and Kamaji's #1 on the WA PR- I don't think I'm quite that good, so I'd attribute it to the combination of my character and playstyle beating his character (Snake) and playstyle in rock paper scissors. But if you play Peach traditionally, Snake wins easy.
 

Taldarin

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#6
I've also had a much easier time with snake than most other characters, and I play very similar to Praxis. In all honesty, I feel as if this is one of snake's few matchups that he doesn't have an advantage in. From my experience, I'd call it an even 50-50.
 
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#7
Nice! The Peach boards needed this so badly that I even wonder why I didn't start it before. Thanks Edreeses Pieces.

Actually I think it would be better for us to discuss about the matchups and later then I could add it to the guide, if you have no problem with that of course. All for our beloved princess. :)

I really don't have much to say against Peach vs Snake. I know that Peach can rack up damage really fast against Snake, but the KOing part is the hard part of the match. Most of Peach's attacks will make Snake recover from above the stage (if he DIs accordingly), and avoiding the cypher grab. Maybe some Air Chase game can get you an upsmash when Snake is trying to land on stage, and since he sucks in the air, he will use an airdodge most of the times.

Also, I destroy Snake's downsmash mines with Toad. :)
 
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#8
I know that Peach can rack up damage really fast against Snake, but the KOing part is the hard part of the match.
Entirely true. And that's where the most common mistake lies- one I fall prey to often :( Snake's at 150% and you really want to rush in and kill him and end up running right into his defense and get tilted to death. Patience is a virtue in the Snake fight, 'specially for the kills, because that's when he gets campy.
 
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#9
Entirely true. And that's where the most common mistake lies- one I fall prey to often :( Snake's at 150% and you really want to rush in and kill him and end up running right into his defense and get tilted to death. Patience is a virtue in the Snake fight, 'specially for the kills, because that's when he gets campy.
I lost to a Snake using Peach on my last tournament because of this problem. He KOed me two times at around 100-120%, and I KOed him almost at 200%. When I was at my last stock he still had two stocks left. That kinda frustrated me... =\

Anyways, have anyone tried using Peach bomber to edgeguard Snake? I'm almost sure that the bomber gets past Snake's super armor, and the horizontal knockback of this move outside the stage is surprisingly good. Maybe a good way to KO Snake, but I still haven't tried this...
 

deepseadiva

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#10
Awesome thread Edreeses *rates*

Snake, personally, is a pretty even matchup for me. Whether or not I can attribute this to playing "bad" Snakes is open, but I'm going to say it's a nice 50 - 50.

Thing is, if you get caught-up in his various traps and tilts you lose pretty early - the trick is to just stay extra observant thoughout the match
 

Artaclaris

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#12
Another tip is if you can get them to tilt you while you shield it makes for an easy grab. They are so sure they will beat whatever you attack them with they will go for it and you can punish them. Plus the snake dash is easy to grab too with just a touch of practice.
 

Veggi

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#13
I lost to a Snake using Peach on my last tournament because of this problem. He KOed me two times at around 100-120%, and I KOed him almost at 200%. When I was at my last stock he still had two stocks left. That kinda frustrated me... =\

Anyways, have anyone tried using Peach bomber to edgeguard Snake? I'm almost sure that the bomber gets past Snake's super armor, and the horizontal knockback of this move outside the stage is surprisingly good. Maybe a good way to KO Snake, but I still haven't tried this...
It does get past his super armor. I think it's the best way to kill him at lower percents, it takes about 2-3 hit of it to do it, but it's easy to land and seems to get easier each time it's landed. For higher percents, I prefer auto float to f air though.
 
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#14
It does get past his super armor. I think it's the best way to kill him at lower percents, it takes about 2-3 hit of it to do it, but it's easy to land and seems to get easier each time it's landed. For higher percents, I prefer auto float to f air though.
That's good to know. It may help if Snake is recovering far from the stage. But if he's to high then I don't know any good options. Maybe the parasol...

Anyways, I heard somewhere that when Snake is performing the bomb recovery, you can get near him, which makes him stick the bomb on Peach. That way he won't be able to bomb himself back. Pretty risky, but worth the shot if you see it coming. Since Peach can float you can get back easily on the stage too.
 

EdreesesPieces

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#15
The Peach bomber idea sounds genious. I gotta try that out.

And you can definitely later add it to the guide, that'd be great, Excel.

Oh and I don't know about the letting him stick you trick. Usually when he uses that tactic he's wayyyy below the stage and needs to make it high up. If you go down that far you might not be able to make it back up because Peach's vertical recovery isn't that great.

And I feel the matchup is like35-65 in Snake's favor but I just get the feeling I'm bad at the matchup. I have no problem getting hits in and doing damage, I just never kill him until 210% and he always kill me at 115% so it makes it really hard to win. Perhaps in this match it's more important than ever to save that F-air for the finishing kill.
 
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#17
The Peach bomber idea sounds genious. I gotta try that out.

And you can definitely later add it to the guide, that'd be great, Excel.

Oh and I don't know about the letting him stick you trick. Usually when he uses that tactic he's wayyyy below the stage and needs to make it high up. If you go down that far you might not be able to make it back up because Peach's vertical recovery isn't that great.

And I feel the matchup is like35-65 in Snake's favor but I just get the feeling I'm bad at the matchup. I have no problem getting hits in and doing damage, I just never kill him until 210% and he always kill me at 115% so it makes it really hard to win. Perhaps in this match it's more important than ever to save that F-air for the finishing kill.

The Peach bomber trick works very well- when Snake up-B's, if you can dive in front of him and Peach bomber, he can't get out of the way. As for the "let Snake stick you" trick, that sounds impractical- you have to get really close, and that assumes you know when he's going to down-B and won't get hit instead. If he needs to down-B to recover, he's probably way below the stage. It's better to wait till Snake plants a mine on the stage and then knock him off.

And I feel the matchup is like35-65 in Snake's favor but I just get the feeling I'm bad at the matchup.
No, u just fail.
 

rm88

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#18
I've posted my opinion several times before, but I think I should do it in this thread. I personally believe Snake is Peach's hardest match-up. In fact, I don't think I've ever faced a hardest match-up in my Smash history (obviously I'm only talking about my mains), and this comes from someone who managed to consistently beat Foxes and Falcos with Kirby in Melee.

I find very difficult to approach him, but I guess I'm just not timing my aerials correctly, because Snake's tilts eat them most of the times. I can avoid/interrupt his Dash cancel sometimes, but I still get hit a lot, and it's a great way for Snake to keep Peach in the air, so he can spam Usmash and Utilt and eventually kill her. I try not to be close (I fear his tilts), but he has a nice variety of projectiles, forcing me to move. Dair combos are good for racking up damage, but he lives forever, and it's kind of frustrating to get KOed way earlier than him.

I've read some tips and comments, and I guess I just have to time Dair/Bair/Fair better, and be way more defensive. When he's at relatively high percentages I try to KO him as soon as possible, and that's just not good ~_~ That being said, I'm definitely improving my Snake game, and I'm sure I'll eventually find a way to beat him.

This thread is an awesome idea ^^
 

Veggi

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#20
That's good to know. It may help if Snake is recovering far from the stage. But if he's to high then I don't know any good options. Maybe the parasol...

Anyways, I heard somewhere that when Snake is performing the bomb recovery, you can get near him, which makes him stick the bomb on Peach. That way he won't be able to bomb himself back. Pretty risky, but worth the shot if you see it coming. Since Peach can float you can get back easily on the stage too.
LOL That reminds me of this thread in the General Brawl board where a Snake player got gimped by a ROB computer that jumped in the way so he would get stuck, then fall to his death.

Oh yeah, about that annoying thing Snake players do where they fly over you so they you can't get them. I actually do use the parasol, and then I follow him with it while he's above me so I can get the umbrella hit, next I open and close it rapidly and it seems to get them every time until I hit the ground. Maybe the people I play just don't know how to get out of it, but it seems to work every time. Actually I almost gimped my friend who plays Wolf with it when he tried to edgehog me.
 
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#21
I've posted my opinion several times before, but I think I should do it in this thread. I personally believe Snake is Peach's hardest match-up. In fact, I don't think I've ever faced a hardest match-up in my Smash history (obviously I'm only talking about my mains), and this comes from someone who managed to consistently beat Foxes and Falcos with Kirby in Melee.

I find very difficult to approach him, but I guess I'm just not timing my aerials correctly, because Snake's tilts eat them most of the times. I can avoid/interrupt his Dash cancel sometimes, but I still get hit a lot, and it's a great way for Snake to keep Peach in the air, so he can spam Usmash and Utilt and eventually kill her. I try not to be close (I fear his tilts), but he has a nice variety of projectiles, forcing me to move. Dair combos are good for racking up damage, but he lives forever, and it's kind of frustrating to get KOed way earlier than him.

I've read some tips and comments, and I guess I just have to time Dair/Bair/Fair better, and be way more defensive. When he's at relatively high percentages I try to KO him as soon as possible, and that's just not good ~_~ That being said, I'm definitely improving my Snake game, and I'm sure I'll eventually find a way to beat him.

This thread is an awesome idea ^^
I can tell from the way you write the post that you're not fighting with the right playstyle and mindset.

I find very difficult to approach him,
You don't. Let him approach you or let him open up a hole in his defense. Always attack when he does something that will prevent him from tilting. For example, if he starts moving, go for him. If he usmashes, fair him out of it ASAP. Toss turnips from a distance to pressure him into coming after you, and when he comes after you, NAIL him.

Your response will be that you can't approach him because of all the traps he lays and usmashes. See the following:

I try not to be close (I fear his tilts), but he has a nice variety of projectiles, forcing me to move.
Don't fear Snake's long range attacks. He has NOTHING on Peach's turnips.

If he forward-B's, use your forward B- it redirects the missle away at a 90 degree angle.

If he throws uncooked grenades, send them back. If he cookes the grenades, start throwing turnips at him when you see him holding the grenade- if he throws a cooked grenade and it hits a turnip, it stops, and can explode and kill HIM.

Grenades are your friend. Practice with Snake and learn the timing exactly. If you know exactly when the grenades will explode you have no reason to fear them. You can grab them, hold on to them and throw them with the right timing to nuke snake as he prepares his next grenade. The Snake will quickly wisen up and stop using grenades at a distance (though a smart Snake will simply drop grenades when he's running away since your attacks can set off the grenades).

If he plants C4 in front of him a distance, you can hover right over the hitbox and they can't do a thing about it.

Don't be afraid of Snakes traps. Snake players try to control the field and lure you into their tilts or traps. If YOU control the field, you win. Break their preconceptions and BRING the fight towards the mines or C4, they'll be afraid of their own traps.

One the Snake realizes that you won't come to them, and they can't get you in traps, they'll get frustrated and try something different. The moment they start moving, you strike.

It requires considerable control over Snake's own traps, and a constant switching between defense and offense, but with the proper playstyle you can REALLY frustrate Snake players. I've had several people insist to me that Peach is a Snake counter after I destroyed them.

When he's at relatively high percentages I try to KO him as soon as possible, and that's just not good ~_~
Yeah, that's what gets me usually too. I can get Kamaji to the last stock almost every match but I always rush for the last kill because it's so close and instead get killed with him at >100% on last stock.

Also, the only thing Snake has that I don't know how to deal with is his Nair.
 

deepseadiva

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#22
If he forward-B's, use your forward B- it redirects the missle away at a 90 degree angle.

I've had several people insist to me that Peach is a Snake counter after I destroyed them.
The missile thing sounds pretty cool - I'll definitely try it.

As for the second part: I can't see why that's not true. ^_^
 

DeadlyTurnip

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#23
35-65 too

I have to say I am with Rm88.

The only thing I have to say in here is generic information. I usually try to shield-grab his Snake Dash and tossing him aside immediately to Power-Shield the missile that might be coming back down. Opening way with turnips if he has already grounded himself. Over all I just think there is too much crap going around the stage with snake. One of two: not allowing him to take control of the stage by savage comboing, spacing and good Power-Shielding, or all the other defensive ways that are safer.
 
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#24
The missile thing sounds pretty cool - I'll definitely try it.

As for the second part: I can't see why that's not true. ^_^
Well, since playing Peach traditionally gets you ***** pretty badly, I'd say it's more they're even but playstyles tip the balance. Peach is probably one of the best suited to fighting Snake if you adopt the right playstyle, but if you have the wrong playstyle, the fact that she's so light means she's one of the worst to fight him.

So I guess it balances out and comes down to a rock paper scissors of playstyles :)

As for the missle thing- it works GREAT. If you ever see the missle heading for your face, Peach bomber it.

Over all I just think there is too much crap going around the stage with snake.
I learned to play Snake before I learned how to use his tilts, so my playstyle was entirely based around traps and explosives. Thus, I LOVE the crap going around the stage with Snake. I generally make better use of it than the Snake does and the Snakes are totally thrown for a loop because of it :)
 
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#25
The Peach bomber idea sounds genious. I gotta try that out.

And you can definitely later add it to the guide, that'd be great, Excel.

Oh and I don't know about the letting him stick you trick. Usually when he uses that tactic he's wayyyy below the stage and needs to make it high up. If you go down that far you might not be able to make it back up because Peach's vertical recovery isn't that great.

And I feel the matchup is like35-65 in Snake's favor but I just get the feeling I'm bad at the matchup. I have no problem getting hits in and doing damage, I just never kill him until 210% and he always kill me at 115% so it makes it really hard to win. Perhaps in this match it's more important than ever to save that F-air for the finishing kill.
Just throw yourself holding down the stick, then start the float at the correct height. I know it's something risky, but may be worth it... especially if you have spare stocks.

Also, the only thing Snake has that I don't know how to deal with is his Nair.
Smash DI. :)

To me the problem that Snake gives me it's not his traps or explosives. The thing that really gets me it's his tech chasing game and his tilts. And sometimes his upsmash. =\
 

Artaclaris

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Portland, Oregon
#26
I don't "fear" Snake I just find him ridiculously unfair. I don't like feeling controlled which I do when I fight him. My brother uses Snake as a secondary and I find it just as hard if not harder than his main. I mean just knowing that most of the time he will kill you below 120% and he will live to at least 175% is sick. Basically what it comes down to is you have to hit him about 3 times for every time he hits you...not easy...but not impossible. I have to agree that this is about a 35-65 matchup for that reason. That said let me talk about the matchup.

Whether this has been said or not but there are two keys to beating Snake. One, beat him at his own games. Deflect the missles, dodge or catch grenades, and mess around with his ground bombs. If you knock HIM into his own motion bomb he will think twice about it. He thinks he will knock you into it but see what happens when you switch positions. Whoever was talking about the C4 was right. Make him drop the C4 and KEEP IT THERE. This is crucial. Without the C4 ready to go their recovery game is gimped and he is much easier to hit, and if its on the ground and you both know where it is its that much easier. Basically you have to show that his explosives are not a threat.

Secondly once you get past the explosives you have to deal with Snake himself who is armed with powerful and easy to connect attacks. How do you get to him? First of all he is probably the easiest person to toad in the game if you predict it right. He knows his attacks are better than yours for the most part so its easy to hurt him a lot with it. When he starts to hesitate for fear of being toaded you have broken the snake! At that point its a lot easier to land attacks or grabs. I guess I should note in addition to toad grabs are key here as well. If the snake charges you just grab him.

Now for a mental stand point most snakes will go in feeling good about the battle and that helps them. I find that if you get the first KO it probably doubles your chances of winning. Be very very careful and get it first. When he comes back he will probably be less cautious because he will want you dead, know how to deal with it. If you can than you can probably pull off the victory. I guess bottom line is I still hate this fight and it doesn't get much harder than this if the Snake knows what he is doing. A smart snake won't give you anything.
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
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Dark.Pch
#27
I think the best wat to learn how to beat a character is to know about them fully. Once you understand a characters strong and weak points, you will be able to handle yourself much better and had a strat. So lets look at whats good about snake shall we?

Pros:

* Neutral A Combo is extremely fast and has incredible priority. The final kick in the cominbination has good range and knockback. It is useful for clearing the opponent and spacing away.
* Ftilt is a great and arguably Snake's best kill move, with the power and knockback of a smash with the speed and priority of a tilt.
* U-tilt has enormous range and upward velocity, and kills at surprisingly low percentages (without decay involved Jigglypuff can be killed at 82%).
* Nair can do up to 28% if all kicks come in contact with opponent. The final kick has high knockback. It is also possible to utilize forward and backward directional influence with this aerial.
* Dair can be short-hopped out of a shield and directional influenced in order to land all four kicks.
* Down Throw can be used numerous times by tech chasing.
* Side-B, the Nikita Missle, is useful for edgeguarding.
* Very heavy character, even heavier than Dedede
* Up smash has potentially huge vertical range.
* Forward smash is incredibly powerful.
* Has the most projectiles of any character.
* Fair is a powerful spike with interesting properties.
* Bair and uair have long range and duration and high knockback.
* Up-B recovery gives Snake great vertical recovery, and has super armor frames.
* Can use any aerial attack and B-Attack after using Up-B (obviously, this excludes the Up-B).
* Has the lowest Crawl in the game.
* Has the longest Smash-Boost.
* Down-B can be adhered to walls, sides of some stages, and enemies.
* Attacks can combo into each other well (C4 into Up Smash into C4 Detonation into Forward/Back Air)
* Can edgeguard in numerous ways, such as using back air, setting up C4, and land mines, as well as his U-Smash and Side-B.
* F-tilt can Knee Lock
* Exploding himself with a grenade or a C4 while in mid-air will allow him to use his up special again, giving him an infinite recovery.
* Unlike most projectiles, the Nikita does more damage the further it goes.
* Shield-Dropping grenades allows Snake to avoid most enemy attacks and escape combos and chaingrabs.
* C4 can stick to opponents when used while standing on them.

Yep that is alot. But for all this it comes with a price. Lets take a look at his weakspots.

Cons:

* Smashes and special moves are very slow.
* Mines, grenades, and C4s can hurt Snake and his teammate(s) (if he has any) as well.
* Down Smash does no immediate damage, can be interrupted, and the mines can be safely detonated by his opponents by rolling over them.
* Fairly large target.
* Slow dash and jump speed.
* Recovery can be caught under stage lips
* The C4 might switch with someone else if the character it was on passes someone else, including Snake.
* Extremely vulnerable when using Up special because if Snake is grabbed and not pummeled and thrown, he cannot use his Up special again which usually results in an instant death unless he detonates a C4 on himself.
* His forward aerial can be difficult to spike
* Long landing lag on all aerials.
* Side special (Remote Controlled Missile) can leave Snake very vulnerable and is easily deflected with attacks.
* Up special can't sweetspot the ledge on the way up.
* Slow and Predictable Air Game.
* Up special takes time in the air to rise causing Snake to be vulnerable in the air for half a second.
* Has limited comboing ability due to limited low knockback attacks.
* Significant startup and cool down lag on most moves.
* Forward smash has a very low range.
* Grenades can be thrown back at Snake.
* Remote missile travels relatively slowly for a projectile.

Take note off this all and work on how to deal with his strong and weak points as Peach. People dont tend to analyze a character fully before fighting them. Thus they have no clue what to do and feel helpless. know your enemy in and out. Then use your brain to handle them. And of course, mindgames are indeed important. You can know the fight well. But if you dont know how to handle yourself and throw people off, all that you know about the enemy wont mean a thing to you at all.
 

Peachkid

Smash Champion
Joined
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In a museum
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Peachkid
#28
i wish i knew some stuff about the snake matchup so that i could share my knowledge to everyone :( but i do know sumthin tho, peachs dair can cancel out a mortar
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,167
Location
Spokane, WA
#30
Prax - How do you know whether a grenade is cooked or uncooked? I really should play as Snake a few times to understand him more, perhaps that's the problem.
Look at Snake's posturing. He'll stand funny if he's holding a grenade.

A "cooked" grenade is one Snake holds on to and throws right before it explodes. So if Snake is posturing funny, throw turnips at him so that when he tosses the grenade the turnip stops it and it explodes in his face.

If Snake just pulls and throws the grenade immediately, grab it and send it back.

Play Snake for a while, but forget about his tilts. Do nothing but learn the timing of his C4, grenades, and Usmash. You can even catch grenades he throws, cook them yourself and throw them back so they explode in midair as they pass him if you get the timing right (that's what I do). If he's in the process of pulling another grenade, he gets nuked (and the new grenade explodes too). Otherwise they usually panic and dive out of the way in fear.
 

Mikey Lenetia

Brawl Backroom Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
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2,694
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Washington Township, MI
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MikeyLenetia
#31
Hm... About the C4 trick. It might not be a good thing for him to try a lot, because of Peach's turnips. You get that timing down of when the explosion happens, toss a turnip, and he's racking up damage for you as you keep him around the same place with them. It's something to try and do to counteract it, after all. If you're lucky, it'll force him to use his up B close to the stage. Hard to time, but it might just work. Oh, and if they aren't in grabbing range and you know his Cypher is coming up, her fair will usually cut through his super armor if you can see it coming soon enough, hopefully earning a kill before 200%.

Spamming Peach's dair isn't a bad thing, either, in this match at a distance. If he tries to catch you, her kicks will stop his up smash and POSSIBLY suck him into the attack to juggle him around for once. It's more of trumping his attacks than boldly rushing forward in this matchup. As such, I'd say the advantage for Snake is 65-35. Hopeless if you rush, but with enough knowledge of his traps and patterns, that number can change so it's not as much in his favor.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,237
Location
Houston, Texas
#32
I agree. 65- 35 if not for sheer ability to kill you so much earlier.

You pretty much just need to know timings, spacing for jabs/ftilt/usmash, and to not be scared of any of his grenades, C4, or missles. I LOVE dairing through the missles and right to him. So so very much.

If anyone is Peach's trouble matchup its Meta. Snake just requires a ton of patience.
 

rm88

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
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830
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Rm88Go
#34
I'm so glad I don't play against good Metaknights often ~_~ I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to simply counterpick Snake; my Dedede, Kirby and even Puff (O.o WTH?) do better against him. I haven't had the opportunity to try the tips I've read, but that would definitely be my plan B.

I highly dislike Snake >_<
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,167
Location
Spokane, WA
#36
I almost beat Kamaji but he took me out of the tourney because I lost my cool and slipped out of my pattern. Plus I got stage-gimped twice on a counterpick (Rainbow Cruise). I beat him one round though.

However, I just did an online tournament and I nearly three stocked the undefeated Snake player that was killing everyone. 2:58, I got it recorded. xD Two stock left for me.

Seriously, my strategy really works. On the match that I kept to it, Snake couldn't do ANYTHING to me. I was untouchable. It's only when I get impatient that he lands a hit.

The Snake player I fought on WiFi with told me that other Snakes he knows consider Peach a Snake counter.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,167
Location
Spokane, WA
#38
I'll get it uploaded to YouTube at some point. :)

I also beat Proud in a WiFi match last night. Man he's good 0_o I even gimped him at one point and he blew himself up with the C4 and sent himself off the top of the screen- I was amused :laugh:
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,167
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Spokane, WA
#39
Praxis can I see the video that you got recorded of you 2 stocking him? Or ANY vids of you vs good snakes?
Here's the vid of me two stocking mfdom. He was pretty good but not as good as Proud or Kamaji.

Keep a careful eye on a couple things as you watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WohPC2v7BR0

1) Notice how I use Bair and Dair to beat the Snakedash.

2) Notice how I bait him into using any attack and then beat on him.

3) Notice that once I get him in the air I don't let off him until he's gotten clear of me and then I stop chasing.

4) Notice how every time I get hit its because I get too aggressive and keep chasing him after he makes it back onto the ground or attack him when he's standing still.

5) Notice how I seem to completely ignore the traps and explosives and pretty much just hop straight over them and stay barely out of the hitboxes.

I can still improve my strategy by simply being a bit more patient, and IMHO once perfected I don't think any Snake can really touch it.

Also, whever we make little stupid slipups, remember that this is WiFi and there was lag.
 
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