Official Metaknight Discussion

[Dark 3nergy]

I agree. He also has lots of effective tactics, if some of them fail he still has a number hidden up his sleeve, including an ace (which we all know and hate). Definitely the best character in the game.

Yep, theory-crafting can only be countered with theory-crafting, which is why we have some ******** MU ratios here and there.

But still, in your examples you're telling me you're reacting instantaneously. Why can't the MK react at the same speed you do? With the small lag he has everywhere (except landing while gliding or sideB'ing into the floor), it would seem like punishing him properly requires a large amount of precision and timing, which I agree, I myself punish a lot of MK's moves even when they attempt to space perfectly... The thing is, you'll punish MK less times than he will punish you during a match, which is why his MUs are advantaged across the boards. For you to consistently beat an MK, you have to play better than him. But if you're playing an MK that's better than you, or just as good as you in terms of performance, you'll be at a disadvantage according to his MUs and how the top players have proven MK to be.

It's not a problem, he IS the best character. Remember that MK is being viewed through a magnifying glass right now for various reasons, and not just because "he's too hard to punish", that's a quality shared between top characters of a game.

Well, you could also argue the same thing for MK instead of against him. If they suddenly start losing against your Lucario for example, they're gonna start looking everywhere for Lucario experience and advice. Once they all gain it, what will you do? Getting better than what your character allows you to is impossible, there's a limit behind each character and MK's is the hardest to reach. You'd be at a disadvantage nevertheless when both you and your opponent have the same (or slightly different) amount of MU experience, according to his MU spread.

you have to play better than him.

Exactly, thats what you have to do. Be the better man. Theres really no running away from this fact, thats simply what you have to do to beat a awesome MK.

Why can't the MK react at the same speed you do? With the small lag he has everywhere (except landing while gliding or sideB'ing into the floor),

of course they would, i'd expect no less from top level MKs

it would seem like punishing him properly requires a large amount of precision and timing,

This requires a focused mind, one that isnt riddled with **** like "MK is gay, im gonna lose this because its xx person using MK". Going into the fight thinking such things is an automatic loss. For any character, not just MKs.

So, working for your victories is not always the only thing you have to do in order to win. Will you have to undergo some dramatic change, like trading your main for one with a larger option pool? A top-tier can lock down a lower-tier's options if the top-tier's been proven to do so, so against a competent opponent you're forced to counterpick someone who can lock down theirs, or at least stop many of their options and force them to play in a specific way. Same goes for MK, but the one who locks down MK the most is MK himself, or at least that's what we know so far, and generally agree as a community.

This is why i use Snake, snake has better options against MK vs DDD. But i also play every other character in brawl because i enjoy them. My personal preference lies mostly with; DDD, Lucy, Wolf, and Snake.

Numbers are numbers on paper, this is why i dont like MU ratios because even the disadvantaged character can find kinks in the playstyle being used by their opponent. Again, this type of thinking about 50:50/75:25/35:65 cripples the mind if you take this baggage with you into the match. It sets you up for failure. I find pleasure in facing disadvantage matches, its the thrill the challenge of breaking through the campyness and gayness. Totally rocking their world to pieces by being the bigger man.

Its also about character flaws as well, not only just kinks in the playstyle. Elements like, character weight, recovery ability, projectile, air speed, fall speed, etc. GOOD players will be able to take advantage of these pit falls, it doesnt matter if DDD has an amazing grab game. If he gets juggled to hell and back hes much more likely to lose. It also doesnt matter if the opponent juggling him is; Jigglypuff, Link, Ike or Fox, Pikachu, ZSS, Pit. What makes a person amazing at what he does is being able to keep from getting juggled, having correct spacing, recovering and being able to punish without endangering himself.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Hmm... I'd say that I'm pro-ban, but for a few reasons.

I don't actually mind Meta Knight himself, yes he's rather broken, and yes he can play gay as ever, *but* there's always got to be a "number one", and that happens to be MK in Brawl.

No, the reason I'm proban is because of the people who use MK, more specifically the *number* of people who use MK. It sucks that a game with so many characters is half ruined already because of the fact that so many people use one of 3 or 4 characters, namely Meta Knight. I personally main Yoshi and Kirby, and it sucks looking at tourneys and seeing 2/3s MKs, and the rest basically split between Snake, Diddy, and Wario, with one or two others thrown in for flavor.

In the end I don't blame MK, I blame the community. People have become far too obsessed with winning, Brawl is about reppin' your favorite Nintendo caracters... Not feeling a need to use the best character because you want to win so badly! I'd personally love to see how many MK mains know anything about MK, the character.

I'm all for a temp ban on MK in tourneys. Force people to play the game how it should be, and is meant to be played! If you cannot win without playing as Meta Knight, then FOR ****'S SAKE, JUST GET BETTER!!

In the meantime, you don't HAVE to be MK to beat MK, seriously, there are a few characters who go pretty much even with MK, for Christ's sake Jigglypuff is pretty much 45:55 -.-

 

[Kewkky]

Exactly, thats what you have to do. Be the better man. Theres really no running away from this fact, thats simply what you have to do to beat a awesome MK.

*facepalm*

Of course it's obvious you have to play better than the MK. WAY better. The only way you can beat something is by being better than it, right? It still doesn't deter from the many reasons we have to want him gone.

of course they would, i'd expect no less from top level MKs

Which is the reason why MK is hated by a majority of the community. No matter what you do, you're always behind him. No matter how much you practice, you're always behind him. Not until you're using MK or the very few characters that go slightly even with him (slightly being the key word, they're not the optimum choice) can you think of consistently beating top-level MKs... Which is the case.

This requires a focused mind, one that isnt riddled with **** like "MK is gay, im gonna lose this because its xx person using MK". Going into the fight thinking such things is an automatic loss. For any character, not just MKs.

Not one great player that goes into a match against an MK mainer thinks this way. They all think "that money's gonna be mine, MK is as good as dead! I'm gonna play better than ever and destroy him..." or something along those lines.

This is why i use Snake, snake has better options against MK vs DDD. But i also play every other character in brawl because i enjoy them. My personal preference lies mostly with; DDD, Lucy, Wolf, and Snake.

I use both Kirby and ZSS vs MKs, but I feel safer with Kirby since he can recover. I beat them on a very consistent basis, only receiving losses from the other best of the top players in PR, including the MK mainer who helped me learn the MU as much as I have (so I know how much wider the disadvantage seems when they learn the MUs at our own rates). Some of the joy in tourneys people have received have been from my matches where I 3-stock other MKs with Kirby and they leave pissed off. Even though I do this consistently in PR, I know better than to say with a straight face that the MU is even, and I acknowledge it's not in my favor and never will be.

A ban on MK doesn't benefit me, I do okay right now, as I can see from my own efforts. I don't want Mk gone for personal reasons like "I'll place better because it's one less disadvantaged MU", I want him gone because I don't want the game I like to play to keep bleeding.

Numbers are numbers on paper, this is why i dont like MU ratios because even the disadvantaged character can find kinks in the playstyle being used by their opponent. Again, this type of thinking about 50:50/75:25/35:65 cripples the mind if you take this baggage with you into the match. It sets you up for failure. I find pleasure in facing disadvantage matches, its the thrill the challenge of breaking through the campyness and gayness. Totally rocking their world to pieces by being the bigger man.

I also dislike MU ratios, which is why that in the Kirby boards, I concentrate more on telling people what they're supposed to do, and try and detail everything as clear and precise as possible. Whatever ratio everyone decides on using for the representation of the MU is fine with me (as long as it's an advantaged one for our advantage MUs, etc).

You should try rocking the stalling MK's world to pieces, then tell me how it happened so I can learn from your experiences.

 

[OverLade]

I'd like to see a MK banned tournament...in Socal

 

[AvaricePanda]

I'd like to see a MK banned tournament...in Atlantic North
the results would be so lulz

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Which is the reason why MK is hated by a majority of the community. No matter what you do, you're always behind him. No matter how much you practice, you're always behind him

Just be the better player. Lets leave this argument alone, it never goes anywhere. You and I know what is expected when you enter the ring with a MK, you swim or sink.

I also dislike MU ratios,

This is why i dont say anything about MUs in general. I stay the hell away from the noise so hard.

You should try rocking the stalling MK's world to pieces, then tell me how it happened so I can learn from your experiences.

Stalling is an element of the game that the competitive scene developed as a result of bad game mechanics. I would ban any form of stalling[scrooging, planking, any flying under the stage,etc] if i was a TO. This is also something i would consider if i was entering a tournament. It makes you think, "do i really wanna waste my time with someone that'll just plank and scrooge the whole match?" Sorry i came to have a good time, not watch you time me out.

Not one great player that goes into a match against an MK mainer thinks this way.

Then why do so many people outside the realm of being a great player complain SOO LOVING MUCH? You even said yourself that great players want MK banned. How can this mind set possibly exist?

I'll tell you right now, its this motivator, Money $$. Get rid of MK, easy moneys. Kids need to go get a loving job, get work done; get paid and pay TAXES WOOOO

 

[salaboB]

Stalling is an element of the game that the competitive scene developed as a result of bad game mechanics. I would ban any form of stalling[scrooging, planking, any flying under the stage,etc] if i was a TO. This is also something i would consider if i was entering a tournament. It makes you think, "do i really wanna waste my time with someone that'll just plank and scrooge the whole match?" Sorry i came to have a good time, not watch you time me out.

How are you going to stop it again?

There's been a lot of rules intended to prevent it and they haven't really done much except reduce it (Somewhat)

 

[ADHD]

Mew2king's feelings on the debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhvqJzmZAY

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Mew2king's feelings on the debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhvqJzmZAY

Not available in my country.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'd like to see a MK banned tournament...in Atlantic North
the results would be so lulz

I wanna host an MK banned tourney but it would probably be a low turnout. Especially in NJ which is MK's homeland. ADHD would get first though.

 

[Overswarm]

I wanna host an MK banned tourney but it would probably be a low turnout. Especially in NJ which is MK's homeland. ADHD would get first though.

There are actually a surprising amount of pro-ban people in NJ.

I think you'd be surprised as the turnout if you hosted an MK banned tourney.



I'd stil overall prefer to wait for a BBR decision, but I'm not sure if those that can make the decision are even paying attention anymore

 

[napZzz]

meta knight gets the ******* wet

NA MEEEN

 

[RDK]

Wolf and Kirby get wrecked by MK? (Not saying they don't, I just don't know...)

MK is a horrible, horrible matchup for Kirby. Without planking, it's 60-40 at best.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'd like to see a MK banned tournament...in Atlantic North
the results would be so lulz

Chibo hosted one back in the fall. An unknown Ice Climbers player won, beating Atomsk in grand finals.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

random max guy is too good

 

[iRJi]

Mew2king's feelings on the debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERhvqJzmZAY

LMFAO xDDDDDD.

There are actually a surprising amount of pro-ban people in NJ.

I think you'd be surprised as the turnout if you hosted an MK banned tourney.



I'd stil overall prefer to wait for a BBR decision, but I'm not sure if those that can make the decision are even paying attention anymore

It's time. Get their attention at any cost now =]. You know it, and I know it. Now is the time to get him gone.

Viva la resolution.

 

[MarKO X]

Chibo hosted one back in the fall. An unknown Ice Climbers player won, beating Atomsk in grand finals.

lolwut?
wut if the ICs are unbeatable without MK to keep them in check?


edit: or did i get trolled?

 

[Snakeee]

Since ZSS was for some reason brought up I have this to say:
When (and if) people realize how to exploit ZSS' character, she sadly becomes nearly unplayable at a high level. I've already gotten myself in an argument with Seibrik about it because he is sooo certain that what Riddle does legitimately works. I know for a fact that it doesn't work, and she is easily exploitable. She is unmatched in the air, but absolutely helpless on the ground (if they know how to punish her).

 

[Turbo Ether]

lolwut?
wut if the ICs are unbeatable without MK to keep them in check?


edit: or did i get trolled?

Not trolling. The ICs player's name is Max.

 

[PottyJokes]

he's a gamefaqs wifi player. thats right ec got tore up by another wifi player

 

[Espy Rose]

Since ZSS was for some reason brought up I have this to say:
When (and if) people realize how to exploit ZSS' character, she sadly becomes nearly unplayable at a high level. I've already gotten myself in an argument with Seibrik about it because he is sooo certain that what Riddle does legitimately works. I know for a fact that it doesn't work, and she is easily exploitable. She is unmatched in the air, but absolutely helpless on the ground (if they know how to punish her).

Hey, that sounds an awful lot like Sonic, except a little better for ZSS.
How about that.

 

[ADHD]

Since ZSS was for some reason brought up I have this to say:
When (and if) people realize how to exploit ZSS' character, she sadly becomes nearly unplayable at a high level. I've already gotten myself in an argument with Seibrik about it because he is sooo certain that what Riddle does legitimately works. I know for a fact that it doesn't work, and she is easily exploitable. She is unmatched in the air, but absolutely helpless on the ground (if they know how to punish her).

Well, we really don't know how good nick riddle is.

 

[Snakeee]

Well, we really don't know how good nick riddle is.

Yeah I understand that. I'm not berating his play or anything. The fact of the matter is I know the character's limitations and when more people figure it out, no matter how good the player is a ZSS should not be able to win a tournament realistically.

 

[OverLade]

Nick Riddle is good and all but he won't beat M2K or anything...

 

[MarKO X]

unless he doesn't know the matchup.
edit: lol @ espy's upgraded sig

 

[OverLade]

M2K does, I watched them play. Every stock was a gimp, 2 stock mid percent in the 2 matches I saw.

I played Nick Riddle with MK and I got destroyed . The matchup is extremely difficult if you don't know it but if you do know it MK definitely has a clear advantage.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

he's a gamefaqs wifi player. thats right ec got tore up by another wifi player

no ive asked gfaqs max and he/she denies it. he also claims to be a she and im sure theirs some conspiracy about this, but their is no definite truth behind who max was

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, we really don't know how good nick riddle is.

Amazing or not, if what Snakeee is telling me is true (yay ZSS boards for lack of good frame data...) everything ZSS has is punishable on shield, and I would tend to trust him cause he'd be on the receiving end of the punishment. Without anything that's safe on shield, how's she supposed to compete at the top of the metagame?

 

[PottyJokes]

its the same dude.

 

[Kewkky]

Amazing or not, if what Snakeee is telling me is true (yay ZSS boards for lack of good frame data...) everything ZSS has is punishable on shield, and I would tend to trust him cause he'd be on the receiving end of the punishment. Without anything that's safe on shield, how's she supposed to compete at the top of the metagame?

Snakeee knows what he's talking about. As much as I love using ZSS, I still feel safer with Kirby because he can punish shields. An opponent who knows how to shieldcamp is bane for ZSS, even worse one that knows how to shieldcamp AND can gimp her AND has no problem racking up damage AND knows that the ground is the safest place to be AND knows how to stay away from her while he's in the air... Not much to keep in mind while playing against her.

This is probably why I feel safer using Kirby over ZSS for all of my matches, even the ones disadvantaged for Kirby and even/advantaged for ZSS. I just can't punish shield approaches with her, they ruin ZSS too much, and whiffing grabs is way too risky.

 

[Turbo Ether]

The matchup is extremely difficult if you don't know it but if you do know it MK definitely has a clear advantage.

This is exactly what I have observed.

 

[Zankoku]

Amazing or not, if what Snakeee is telling me is true (yay ZSS boards for lack of good frame data...) everything ZSS has is punishable on shield, and I would tend to trust him cause he'd be on the receiving end of the punishment. Without anything that's safe on shield, how's she supposed to compete at the top of the metagame?

Not everything is, but the only thing making those attacks unpunishable on shield is her jab, which very much is punishable on shield. In short, her "safe" ****'s only made safe by a gimmick.

 

[Omni]

enough about ZSS... i looked at the results and i was like, aww riddle didnt get 1st this time and then i saw


1: HRNUT (Snake) (the split)
2: Shaky (Ness) (they split)
3: Seibrik (D3, MK)
4: R@vyn (Pit)
5: Nick Riddle (ZSS)
5: Prince Ramen (Pit, MK)
7: Hungrybox (D3)
7: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9: Co18 (Fox, D3)
9: Chaz (Marth, MK)
9: GDX (Diddy)
9: Radix (Diddy, Snake)

NESS? WAT?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's because Ness is crazy legit.

 

[Inferno3044]

he's a gamefaqs wifi player. thats right ec got tore up by another wifi player

We are talking about ICs vs. D3 or Wolf (doubting it was IC dittos) two characters that get ***** by ICs. Also its not fully proven.

enough about ZSS... i looked at the results and i was like, aww riddle didnt get 1st this time and then i saw


1: HRNUT (Snake) (the split)
2: Shaky (Ness) (they split)
3: Seibrik (D3, MK)
4: R@vyn (Pit)
5: Nick Riddle (ZSS)
5: Prince Ramen (Pit, MK)
7: Hungrybox (D3)
7: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9: Co18 (Fox, D3)
9: Chaz (Marth, MK)
9: GDX (Diddy)
9: Radix (Diddy, Snake)

NESS? WAT?

WTF? Ness can fight MK?

 

[Kewkky]

ITS CUZ THERE WERE PLANKING RULES AND NO SCROOGING AND THEY DIDNT KNOW THE MU

Spoiler

/cliched_arguments

I dunno. I'd like to see vids, but I'm sure they were conveniently not saved... ****it, this always happens with random tourney results!

 

[Orion*]

Since ZSS was for some reason brought up I have this to say:
When (and if) people realize how to exploit ZSS' character, she sadly becomes nearly unplayable at a high level. I've already gotten myself in an argument with Seibrik about it because he is sooo certain that what Riddle does legitimately works. I know for a fact that it doesn't work, and she is easily exploitable. She is unmatched in the air, but absolutely helpless on the ground (if they know how to punish her).

shes top of mid tier lol. at least thats my opinion but w/e. a lot of characters have it worse sadly, but she has that surprise factor. people dont know how to paly against her and just get *****

 

[Professor :3]

shes top of mid tier lol. at least thats my opinion but w/e. a lot of characters have it worse sadly, but she has that surprise factor. people dont know how to paly against her and just get *****

Why would you rely on that?

 

[Palpi]

It doesn't matter if characters have it worse if what Snakee is saying is true though.

 

[Kewkky]

It doesn't matter if characters have it worse if what Snakee is saying is true though.

It's true, characters with a good shield game wreck ZSS. I've also been (and still am) in the shoes of a ZSS mainer, so I've seen these things first-hand... And felt them as well!

What's so hard to understand? D: