Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

hey, Kirby does OK vs MK. It's not THAT disadvantaged of an MU, I've learned a lot about it! D:

Kirby vs. MK is a ridiculously favored matchup for MK. If the MK wants to FIGHT the kirby then he's stupid. Just hit him once and dance around him for 8 minutes, he's too slow.

And look where Nick Riddle's ZSS has got him, a place where G&W and the others haven't reached in forever: #1 at a large tourney.

They used to, then people learned the MU. Snakeeeeee did the same thing Nick is doing now, just much earlier in Brawl's lifespan. Now he plays MK.

 

[Sosuke]

My monitor is 10 years old.

Do you think that might have anything to do with the problem?

Mine is ~8.

 

[UltiMario]

I've learned the hard way that you don't want to actually fight in a Kirby vs MK Match-up, because you end up failing in the long run that way.

Just sayin'

 

[fkacyan]

hey, Kirby does OK vs MK. It's not THAT disadvantaged of an MU, I've learned a lot about it! D:



And look where Nick Riddle's ZSS has got him, a place where G&W and the others haven't reached in forever: #1 at a large tourney.


Best player in PR is a DDD mainer named LingLing. He agrees that ZSS is a very tough-to-beat *****, and if he makes a mistake he's eating a large amount of %/dead at 0%.

Forgive me, but my litmi for these characters are players like Atomsk, Shadow, etc, and Snakeee, who is arguably one of the creators of the way ZSS plays.

 

[adumbrodeus]

They used to, then people learned the MU. Snakeeeeee did the same thing Nick is doing now, just much earlier in Brawl's lifespan. Now he plays MK Peach.

*Fixed



Completely serious, I was like wtf when he showed up at the Peach social thread (developing Peach as a secondary) and announced this.

 

[etecoon]

MK ***** kirby, I'd disagree on ZSS though, ZSS does fine vs MK. being both a snake and a meta knight player, I'm much more confident in using snake vs ZSS

and not everyone "snake to lucario" becomes more viable with MK gone, if anything snake and diddy become less viable because MK suppresses their worse weaknesses. the characters that this helps the most are definitely marth and ROB, and is also beneficial to probably like 5 others that still won't be that viable but will be a bit better

 

[GeneralWoodman]

I've learned the hard way that you don't want to actually fight in a Kirby vs MK Match-up, because you just plain lose by doing that.

Just sayin'

perfect shield bair and up b, gg

 

[Overswarm]

and not everyone "snake to lucario" becomes more viable with MK gone, if anything snake and diddy become less viable because MK suppresses their worse weaknesses. the characters that this helps the most are definitely marth and ROB, and is also beneficial to probably like 5 others that still won't be that viable but will be a bit better

That was one of my assumptions, yes; Snake and Diddy would no longer be a step above the rest. The idea isn't that the order of those characters would remain constant, but that those characters themselves would still be considered "viable". The order would be shuffled, certainly.

 

[Chuee]

Mk v Kirby is 60-40. Without planking.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

HOLY CRAP.




I just realized that every single one of those characters has been consistently wrecked by Metaknight since forever. The best shot you have in that entire list is either ZSS or Pikachu. o_o

Wolf and Kirby get wrecked by MK? (Not saying they don't, I just don't know...)

 

[Turbo Ether]

Wolf loses 4/6 to MK IF planking/scrooging are "banned".

 

[Kewkky]

Kirby vs. MK is a ridiculously favored matchup for MK. If the MK wants to FIGHT the kirby then he's stupid. Just hit him once and dance around him for 8 minutes, he's too slow.

I might be biased because I'm a Kirby main, but I truly believe the MU to not be a "ridiculously favored matchup for MK". No details, I wasn't planning on making an MU discussion out of this debate with my comment, more like a small "hey, wait a second...!" remark.

Forgive me, but my litmi for these characters are players like Atomsk, Shadow, etc,

Well, guess we both have sources for our opinions, eh?

and Snakeee, who is arguably one of the creators of the way ZSS plays.

I have to disagree. I wouldn't call him "the creator of the modern ZSS playstyle"... More like its earliest ambassador.

perfect shield bair and up b, gg

*grabs MK's shield*

 

[etecoon]

Wolf and Kirby get wrecked by MK? (Not saying they don't, I just don't know...)

yes. pika, ZSS, and GAW are the best vs MK on that list, and GAW loses pretty solidly too...

 

[GeneralWoodman]

i really want to go to a meta ban tourney now, just to see how id do

 

[UltiMario]

You'd do no better or worse because its the skill level of the players that would decide when you lose, not the character.

 

[Tien2500]

*Fixed



Completely serious, I was like wtf when he showed up at the Peach social thread (developing Peach as a secondary) and announced this.

Snakeee has played Peach for a while. Dunno when he started using her primarily though.

MK ***** kirby, I'd disagree on ZSS though, ZSS does fine vs MK. being both a snake and a meta knight player, I'm much more confident in using snake vs

I play ZSS and I disagree. I think both matchups fluctuate dramatically based on matchup knowledge. An inexperienced ZSS can be easily overwhelmed by Snake's tilts and weight but once she learns to work around all that and take advantage of him in the air it becomes near neutral.

MK is near neutal if both players aren't very experienced. ZSS has a lot of answers to MK's usual strategies. As MK learns the matchup though he should get better at gimping ZSS which tips the scales in his favor.

Of course nothing is set in stone but thats how I see it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wolf loses 4/6 to MK IF planking/scrooging are "banned".

Ah... so more like 80/20 without bans, knowing wolf...

yes. pika, ZSS, and GAW are the best vs MK on that list, and GAW loses pretty solidly too...

ZSS actually doesn't do that bad against MK, IIRC... wasn't that a 55/45 matchup, or has it changed since I saw last?

But yeah, most of the borderline chars get wrecked really hard by MK. And this is made worse by the fact that you face MK every other round. >.>

 

[UltiMario]

BPC needs to spend at least some time today just looking at character match-ups before he says much more.


For the sake of everyone here, please.

 

[Overswarm]

BPC needs to spend at least some time today just looking at character match-ups before he says much more.


For the sake of everyone here, please.

All good players have labeled any and all matchup ratios as "scrubby". In fact, we've been working on fixing that in the BBR even because these matchup numbers have to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen... and I've seen MK.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS vs. MK isn't very bad. I think it's just slightly in Meta Knight's favor. ZSS' biggest asset in the match-up is taht she can't be CP'd very well. She is the only character in the game who can go even with MK on RC for instance. There's no stage he can use to just gay her, and she wins in the air.

ZSS vs. King Dedede is very strongly in ZSS' favor. Between the very easy-to-land chaingrab and how easy he is to juggle and just run away from (and thus camp) any ZSS who knows the match-up should not lose.

Snake is debatable, but it's one of my favorite match-ups. Basically Snake owns ZSS in terms of raw character assets like weight and KO power, but ZSS' agility and moveset kinda own him. It's probably Snake's favor, but no more or less than Meta Knight.

ZSS' biggest problem is that she has to be played perfectly because her moves have static, quick hitboxes, so perfect spacing is 100% vital. One mistake and she gets *****. Her tourney placings are sub par because she has one pro player. PatG, WarpStatus, etc. are good but don't have the placings Nick does.

Nick Riddle is placing well in Florida and despite what people aer saying here, he has been placing in Florida for a very long time. He didn't just suddenly show up and start ****** people, he's been ranked for at least a year and has been getting consistently better. He argues that the way he uses the moves Snakeee abandoned are superior and that the moves aren't bad. There are two sides to every story.

ZSS does not have any unwinnable match-ups, except arguably Falco which most ZSS players agree is not as bad as we once thought. For instance, WarpStatus, a good ZSS in SoCal has beaten DEHF in a tourney at least twice. Pikachu is arguably pretty bad, and there are a few weirdos who hate Olimar.

I know this isn't a ZSS thread but I see a lot of crazy assumptions from people who don't know better, so I wanted to clear some stuff up.

 

[Tien2500]

ZSS actually doesn't do that bad against MK, IIRC... wasn't that a 55/45 matchup, or has it changed since I saw last?

Some say 55:45 but I think most "pros" call it 60:40 MK.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

You'd do no better or worse because its the skill level of the players that would decide when you lose, not the character.

not when you go all jigglypuff. i rarely lose until i face the haha mk players.

 

[etecoon]

All good players have labeled any and all matchup ratios as "scrubby". In fact, we've been working on fixing that in the BBR even because these matchup numbers have to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen... and I've seen MK.

unless this just happened, I've seen good players use ratio's. it's just another way of saying "this is evenish" or "this is disadvantaged". what's scrubby is going to a character board, reading what their ratio on it is, and taking that at face value without thinking about the MU yourself.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC needs to spend at least some time today just looking at character match-ups before he says much more.


For the sake of everyone here, please.

Because of the ZSS statement, the kirby statement, or the Wolf statement?

If ZSS, see above. If Kirby, I was lazy. If Wolf, prove me wrong-what the **** can wolf do against a planking MK?

 

[etecoon]

She is the only character in the game who can go even with MK on RC for instance.

I wouldn't call it even because snake loses on neutrals too, but I don't mind RC vs MK. brinstar is way way worse ._.

RC really isn't a bad stage for snake though, the ship is actually really good for him, he is great at running away vertically so the carpet section isn't always that bad, and the top area has a low ceiling and forces people to pass through your traps

 

[Spelt]

All good players have labeled any and all matchup ratios as "scrubby". In fact, we've been working on fixing that in the BBR even because these matchup numbers have to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen... and I've seen MK.

yesssssssssssss. i would love it if ratios were to go away.

 

[Tien2500]

yesssssssssssss. i would love it if ratios were to go away.

I don't get the hate for ratios. They're better than nothing. Just be aware of the inherent flaws.

 

[Kewkky]

these matchup numbers have to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen

I agree...

- 62:38
- 52:48

I've been thinking (and mentioning here and there) for a while that SmashBoards has been doing the ratios wrong since forever (even the thought of XZ:YZ bothers me)... How long has the SBR-B been working on the new "MU things"? And how much longer can you speculate for the project to take? I'm very curious... :|

 

[Iliad]

If there was one argument to anti-ban I would support, it would be that metaknight provides the best venue for other characters to improve. In that you need to discover new techniques and improve your overall competency with the engine in order to best an MK of equal skill or better.

In essence, having MK around actually prevents the stagnation of the metagame, as other mains need to evolve their gameplay to keep up. Not everyone just gives up and switches to MK.

That being said, the fact that this character causes other characters to have to jump up in technical ability, is a sign that he is overpowered in comparison. He makes a phenominal training tool, but a detrimental competitive tool.

Very akuma-ish.

 

[etecoon]

Very akuma-ish.

 

[UltiMario]

What is this I don't even.

MU Ratios only work in 5s.

 

[Overswarm]

What is this I don't even.

MU Ratios only work in 5s.

They don't work period because they aren't relative to anything but their own character, and even then they aren't accurate.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What is this I don't even.

MU Ratios only work in 5s.

Why?

They represent your chance of winning out of 100. That could be anything from 1-99.

However it does illustrate the silliness of these ratios.

 

[etecoon]

They represent your chance of winning out of 100. That could be anything from 1-99.

no...

However it does illustrate the silliness of these ratios.

yes

 

[UltiMario]

1-99 is the only acception in non-5 ratios.

In 5s they're easy to understand what it means. When you get out of of that (Other than 1-99 because its obvious what that means), its just impossible to tell what a Match-up would MEAN from its ratio because I have a hard time seeing the different between "60:40" and "59:41"

 

[Kewkky]

no...

There is never a right answer.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why?

They represent your chance of winning out of 100. That could be anything from 1-99.

However it does illustrate the silliness of these ratios.

Except unfortunately it doesn't.


They currently have no math grounding and if you were correct then the numbers would be so far off it would be pure insanity.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Right, that was my point. Ideally these numbers would represent what they're supposed to. That they don't (or rather, can't, physically can not) reinforces their silliness.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Right, that was my point. Ideally these numbers would represent what they're supposed to. That they don't reinforces their silliness.

The problem with that is that... well the numbers become extremely large incredibly quickly, and that makes them become useless very quickly.


That's why I prefer to talk about it in terms of how much better one needs to be to make it have a 50% win rate.



In other words, it should be about number and degree of reads.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Most states should experiment with Meta Knight-banned tournaments. Seeing what characters place higher because of the possibility that Meta Knight keeps them down in placings. Nobody is consideriing this when they really should.