Official Metaknight Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

I would ask that people asking TOs for that list can change their byline from "never ban MK" to "never ban MK without a rigid criteria developed by community consensus that MK is proven to violate".

I understand your sentiment and I totally agree. I think the problem is that anti-ban is so rigidly conservative that no criteria we create now is going to be sufficient. MK is never good enough, his techniques are never broken enough, planking and scrooging are ignored as MK-specific problems, and his win rate and statistics aren't good enough either.

In short, the arguments pro-ban have submitted in this thread are well thought-out and compelling, but nothing will ever be good enough as long as anti-ban considers "get better" or "not overcentralizing" (phrases akin to "talk to the hand") to be good answers.

There is a real concern that if the community becomes too divided, it might disintegrate as a whole, therefore simply making debate useless is a bad idea because it will cause this tension to increase.

Ackknowledged; assume for a second that Meta Knight is without a doubt hurting the game; if this is the case, we are to choose between playing a bad game or playing in a split community. There is no good choice here.

Instead, it's well past time to force this debate into a stage where it can actually conclude, and by this I mean we as a community must develop a firm rigid criteria. It cannot be based on information we already have because that will bias the two sides in the debate, furthermore we should be able to apply it (with as little editing as possible) to stages and tactics in order to moderate both sides in the debate. I would suggest forming a committee to deal with this.

You're in the SBR, right? Can't you propose something like this formally? I think a committee is a good idea.

When we have that, we develop the data that we need to figure out whether he is truly banworthy.

I believe the only "data" that can "prove" MK banworthy is data from tournaments within a year's time that have no ledge grab or scrooging rules. I have expressed why I believe these rules to be bad for the game overall before, and why I think their removal is the only thing that can get the ball rolling.

Enough of this BS whining after each tournament, enough of this divide, let's get this to a stage where one side can be proven right or wrong, and not by some outside fighter's criteria, but OUR criteria.

I'll be developing a list of TOs who agree with me on this and will never ban MK until this demand is met, alongside the list that anti's developing, and hopefully others will be willing to join me on this. This will be, not just for pro-ban or anti-ban, but for everyone who thinks that this debate deserves a conclusion that actually decides the issue.


Who's with me?

I'm certainly with you, but I stipulate and cannot stress enough that LGLs and Scrooging Rules MUST be addressed by proper "authorities" (the BBR, TOs, high-level players) before we can move anywhere. These rules artifically inflate and deflate certain characters in an effort to dilute Meta Knight and interfere with the game in a way removing a character never would.

I do support your methodology, but I think there are steps that need to be taken first.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm trying to be funny, Kewkky.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm trying to be funny, Kewkky.

 

[Overswarm]

Alex is anti-ban?

If he is, things have changed.

What Omni has tongue-in-cheek suggested I've already done for the pro-ban side. Most of the midwest, some of WC, some of south, some of east I've already been in contact with and 5/8 nationals are willing to ban MK; I've told each and everyone of them not to do so without BBR approval though, because if one side did that we'd get a knee-jerk reaction that would ultimately result in a weakened Brawl community. It's the same reason I don't ban him at my circuit events or convince MW TOs to ban him now: it defeats the end goal. The only way I'd do this without BBR approval is... well, it'd take a lot. Something like completely being ignored by the BBR, an open all-out "I'll never ban MK" list of TOs coming up, things like that that are less about progress and more about maintaining the status quo no matter what.

Surprisingly, there are a fair amount of pro-ban in NJ.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Well, I personally have always thought that IC's infinites are easy to learn. All it takes is timing, you don't need crazy button combinations that fail if you buffer them or something of the sort.

There's a couple of top-level players who want Mk gone. I'm pretty sure their mentalities are top-notch for Brawl's competitive scene.

You're viewing all of this from the opponent's perspective, not MK's perspective. MK also has access to the same options we do, you know!

Hmm, you DO know that as you practice against the higher-leveled MK, he's practicing against you too, right? His tools are always better than yours, if you give him access to your patterns and tricks he'll iron them out and punish you harder than you should be able to punish him... That's probably why people keep complaining, because since MK's MU are always at a slight advantage or higher, people have to work harder than the MK to win, and if the MK learns how you play while you learn how to play him, the battle only keeps getting harder.

I believe alot of the problems come from how little animation delay MK gets. It can be frustrating to get inside and wreck him. I dont deny that hes the best; Hes got the priority, range, and some of the best options in the game.

your patterns and tricks

This right here is probably the thing that has to be ironed out the most out of any ones respected play style. Repeating similar behaviors inside a match. Even if that means grabbing. Theres a time and place for doing a repeated action such a chain grabbing, but like you said forcing a grab will result in punishment. Mixing up what you have is the best way to approach some MUs. In the case of MK, i wont force grabbing him, i'll grab him when i believe the situation presents itself. However if faced with a circumstance where i can punish him with a fsmash kill at 65% that i KNOW i can land, i would put more priority on a move that got me the early kill, if i believed the animation delay from fsmash might give time for MK to shield, i'd choose dsmash. It really really boils down to situation and reaction time. Im gonna stop there because i dont like theory crafting about matches. Id rather play them.

the MK learns how you play while you learn how to play him, the battle only keeps getting harder

Evolution, the characters meta game, and his options. You evolve, he evolves as the matches go on. Diversity is then needed after that. Which is why playing many different MKs with varying styles gives you the oppertunity to more dynamically approach the match up. You learn what tools interrupt what approaches, whats the best defense to take, when to take it. These cannot all be learned from one single MK, they are learned as a whole as you encounter them.

Theoretically its nice when people share their MK match up experience...sometimes it is not enough. One thing to read a MU, its another dynamically different idea to be thinking about how to face an MK by yourself on a platform.

Sometimes i wonder, are we playing the MU right? Or is there something missing?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, BPC, pretty much, there would be no MK ban discussion in an aternate universe where MK couldn't go under stages.

Is this what you mean? Is scrooging alone the ONLY reason MK is banworthy?

O.o

I honestly can't even tell how it is possible to understand my post like this.

If planking and scrooging are allowed, Metaknight is not only absurdly gay and annoying, but also ridiculously dominant. How do I know this? Well, I don't. I'm theorycrafting. But aren't most of us? Which "winnable" matchups would become hard counters if planking and scrooging (mostly the former) were allowed?

At the same time, it's impossible to make a good rule against either that isn't arbitrary, indiscreet, etc.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But aren't most of us? Which "winnable" matchups would become hard counters if planking and scrooging (mostly the former) were allowed?

Diddy
Falco
Wario?
Zero Suit Samus


Off the top of my head

 

[adumbrodeus]

I understand your sentiment and I totally agree. I think the problem is that anti-ban is so rigidly conservative that no criteria we create now is going to be sufficient. MK is never good enough, his techniques are never broken enough, planking and scrooging are ignored as MK-specific problems, and his win rate and statistics aren't good enough either.

In short, the arguments pro-ban have submitted in this thread are well thought-out and compelling, but nothing will ever be good enough as long as anti-ban considers "get better" or "not overcentralizing" (phrases akin to "talk to the hand") to be good answers.

Which is why I think depending on data that we don't already have is important, because I believe that anti-ban will say the same thing about pro-ban. that they are so intent on banning MK that they are jumping at shadows.


Which is why building a consensus on what data is needed is so important before the data is gathered that is considered. Me and a friend are working on a metric to deal with the popularity factor in tournament results, but I don't plan on releasing those results until this is established independently even if they come out first.

Ackknowledged; assume for a second that Meta Knight is without a doubt hurting the game; if this is the case, we are to choose between playing a bad game or playing in a split community. There is no good choice here.

Exactly, and I think a reasonable number of anti-ban people are thinking the opposite, that

You're in the SBR, right? Can't you propose something like this formally? I think a committee is a good idea.

Unfortunately, I'm not, and even if I was, I think building a group of relevant supporters would be extremely important in getting this to be taken as THE solution.

I believe the only "data" that can "prove" MK banworthy is data from tournaments within a year's time that have no ledge grab or scrooging rules. I have expressed why I believe these rules to be bad for the game overall before, and why I think their removal is the only thing that can get the ball rolling.

I'm certainly with you, but I stipulate and cannot stress enough that LGLs and Scrooging Rules MUST be addressed by proper "authorities" (the BBR, TOs, high-level players) before we can move anywhere. These rules artifically inflate and deflate certain characters in an effort to dilute Meta Knight and interfere with the game in a way removing a character never would.

I do support your methodology, but I think there are steps that need to be taken first.

I think that we should account for planking, not so much because it shouldn't be banned (I am concerned about such a ban being discrete and enforcable), but because it hasn't been proven to be broken.


Scrooging is stalling plain and simple though, stalling tactics overcentralize by nature, and it should be banned independantly (well, unless it doesn't work, but Dangr got a good amount of data which suggests otherwise).



Thanks for the commentary though, can I consider you a supporter?

If he is, things have changed.

What Omni has tongue-in-cheek suggested I've already done for the pro-ban side. Most of the midwest, some of WC, some of south, some of east I've already been in contact with and 5/8 nationals are willing to ban MK; I've told each and everyone of them not to do so without BBR approval though, because if one side did that we'd get a knee-jerk reaction that would ultimately result in a weakened Brawl community. It's the same reason I don't ban him at my circuit events or convince MW TOs to ban him now: it defeats the end goal. The only way I'd do this without BBR approval is... well, it'd take a lot. Something like completely being ignored by the BBR, an open all-out "I'll never ban MK" list of TOs coming up, things like that that are less about progress and more about maintaining the status quo no matter what.

Surprisingly, there are a fair amount of pro-ban in NJ.

Which is why I'm doing something more neutral in an attempt to bring this to the next stage.



Like it or not, a consensus is the only way to solve this in the long term, otherwise we WILL have a greatly weakened brawl community, no matter who wins.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Diddy
Falco
Wario?
Zero Suit Samus


Off the top of my head

And there are probably more.

And we've already explained the multiple reasons why rules against planking and scrooging are a bad idea.

 

[Kewkky]

I believe alot of the problems come from how little animation delay MK gets. It can be frustrating to get inside and wreck him. I dont deny that hes the best; Hes got the priority, range, and some of the best options in the game.

I agree. He also has lots of effective tactics, if some of them fail he still has a number hidden up his sleeve, including an ace (which we all know and hate). Definitely the best character in the game.

This right here is probably the thing that has to be ironed out the most out of any ones respected play style. Repeating similar behaviors inside a match. Even if that means grabbing. Theres a time and place for doing a repeated action such a chain grabbing, but like you said forcing a grab will result in punishment. Fixing up what you have is the best way to approach some MUs. In the case of MK, i wont force grabbing him, i'll grab him when i believe the situation presents itself. However if faced with a circumstance where i can punish him with a fsmash kill at 65% that i KNOW i can land, i would put more priority on a move that got me the early kill, if i believed the animation delay from fsmash might give time for MK to shield, i'd choose dsmash. It really really boils down to situation and reaction time. Im gonna stop there because i dont like theory crafting about matches. Id rather play them.

Yep, theory-crafting can only be countered with theory-crafting, which is why we have some ******** MU ratios here and there.

But still, in your examples you're telling me you're reacting instantaneously. Why can't the MK react at the same speed you do? With the small lag he has everywhere (except landing while gliding or sideB'ing into the floor), it would seem like punishing him properly requires a large amount of precision and timing, which I agree, I myself punish a lot of MK's moves even when they attempt to space perfectly... The thing is, you'll punish MK less times than he will punish you during a match, which is why his MUs are advantaged across the boards. For you to consistently beat an MK, you have to play better than him. But if you're playing an MK that's better than you, or just as good as you in terms of performance, you'll be at a disadvantage according to his MUs and how the top players have proven MK to be.

It's not a problem, he IS the best character. Remember that MK is being viewed through a magnifying glass right now for various reasons, and not just because "he's too hard to punish", that's a quality shared between top characters of a game.

Evolution, the characters meta game, and his options. You evolve, he evolves as the matches go on. Diversity is then needed after that. Which is why playing many different MKs with varying styles gives you the oppertunity to more dynamically approach the match up. You learn what tools interrupt what approaches, whats the best defense to take, when to take it. These cannot all be learned from one single MK, they are learned as a whole as you encounter them.

Theoretically its nice when people share their MK match up experience...sometimes it is not enough. One thing to read a MU, its another dynamically different idea to be thinking about how to face an MK by yourself on a platform.

Sometimes i wonder, are we playing the MU right? Or is there something missing?

Well, you could also argue the same thing for MK instead of against him. If they suddenly start losing against your Lucario for example, they're gonna start looking everywhere for Lucario experience and advice. Once they all gain it, what will you do? Getting better than what your character allows you to is impossible, there's a limit behind each character and MK's is the hardest to reach. You'd be at a disadvantage nevertheless when both you and your opponent have the same (or slightly different) amount of MU experience, according to his MU spread.

So, working for your victories is not always the only thing you have to do in order to win. Will you have to undergo some dramatic change, like trading your main for one with a larger option pool? A top-tier can lock down a lower-tier's options if the top-tier's been proven to do so, so against a competent opponent you're forced to counterpick someone who can lock down theirs, or at least stop many of their options and force them to play in a specific way. Same goes for MK, but the one who locks down MK the most is MK himself, or at least that's what we know so far, and generally agree as a community.



Sorry if there's typos.

 

[<π]

I understand your sentiment and I totally agree. I think the problem is that anti-ban is so rigidly conservative that no criteria we create now is going to be sufficient. MK is never good enough, his techniques are never broken enough, planking and scrooging are ignored as MK-specific problems, and his win rate and statistics aren't good enough either.

In short, the arguments pro-ban have submitted in this thread are well thought-out and compelling, but nothing will ever be good enough as long as anti-ban considers "get better" or "not overcentralizing" (phrases akin to "talk to the hand") to be good answers.

It's not even like that. consider these ideas. MK is the most played character mathematically speaking probability suggests that He will come out on top very frequently. The flip of that is why the argument "there is no representation" has grounding.

Planking and scrooging are big issues, but that can be resolved with proper rule-sets. Most people agree with that, as you mentioned they are hardly MK specific. there are better plankers than MK, there are better scroogers than MK. and the obvious goals of these techniques are specifically to stall.

The core of the issue, I feel is MK's moveset itself. Its amazing sure, option rich because low lag, fast long range disjoints. But it is hardly unbeatable. most characters have the tools to beat MK. for example sheik can punish just about anything he does on reaction and is fast enough to get inside of his zone and put him in akward situations with no right answer. Ike and link out range him by significant amounts. snake out ranges him and nades shut down a lot of his approach options. diddy's bananas. ZSS's range and speed, wario's mobility, IC's range and chain grabs.

Most characters, even "horrible" ones have something that the can use in the match up, it's just people aren't putting in the effort to take advantage of them.

 

[Allied]

Yo just saying, a snake won a tournament this weekend where i was at

Beat my crew mates who are the best metaknights in NJ/NY

;3

INb4 DOESNT MATTER MK IS STILL BROKEN AND RUINS COMPETITIVE PLAY

 

[Overswarm]

Which is why I'm doing something more neutral in an attempt to bring this to the next stage.



Like it or not, a consensus is the only way to solve this in the long term, otherwise we WILL have a greatly weakened brawl community, no matter who wins.

My research has shown otherwise.

Also, I am not sure you know what you're getting into

 

[Overswarm]

Yo just saying, a snake won a tournament this weekend where i was at

Beat my crew mates who are the best metaknights in NJ/NY

;3

INb4 DOESNT MATTER MK IS STILL BROKEN AND RUINS COMPETITIVE PLAY

1 Mew2King - MK
2 DEHF - Falco
3 Zex - MK/Marth
4 Felix - Diddy
5 Junk - DeDeDe/Marth
5 Zeionut - ?
7 Superboom - Snake
7 Sean - MK

1 Tyrant - MK
1 Mike - Marth/MK?
1 Havok - MK
4 Stauffy - Lucario
5 Brian H - Olimar
5 DSF - MK
7 Tearbear - MK
7 DAO - Diddy


omgomgomgomg cherry picking from the weekend FTWWWWWWWWWWWW

 

[Kewkky]

omgomgomgomg cherry picking from the weekend FTWWWWWWWWWWWW

Ahahaha, there's no way I could've written up anything better than this!

Also, I am not sure you know what you're getting into

Well, he doesn't have access to what your research has brought you, so there's no other way... Nor is there any way for me to find out what your research has brought you as well.

 

[Flayl]

DEHF vs M2K finally happened? Are there videos? Was planking allowed?

 

[adumbrodeus]

My research has shown otherwise.

Also, I am not sure you know what you're getting into

We'll see.


You're right, I probably don't know, which is why I'm soliciting support from like-minded people.


That's why I'm soliciting support from like-minded people in getting it together, I know I'm not important enough to do it on my own.

 

[Allied]

shut up overswarm you know u love my cherrypicking!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

deus:

Supported, but I don't know what my support will do for you.

I don't agree that scrooging can be banned discretely. Even "Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard may only fly under the stage once without touching the ground" has its problems, and Pit/Charizard aren't even good at it.

I've been thinking and without LGL and scrooging rules Jiggly may be a force just because she could be the only one to semi-compete with MK below the stage..

Just think! The whole metagame reduced to Jiggly/MK fighting beneath Smashville.

 

[Kewkky]

I've been thinking and without LGL and scrooging rules Jiggly may be a force just because she could be the only one to semi-compete with MK below the stage..

Uhh, hasn't there been no LGL/Scrooging rules around for over a year? I fail to see the part where Jiggs is higher than 4th/5th worst.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

i don't think mk has to scrooge to beat jiggz. the only way jiggz can win in the matchup is with an early dair to rest on the first stock...or a stupid mk who can't punish rollout.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Brawl will be a flying game, based on fighting under stages and teching.

 

[adumbrodeus]

deus:

Supported, but I don't know what my support will do for you.

I don't agree that scrooging can be banned discretely. Even "Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard may only fly under the stage once without touching the ground" has its problems, and Pit/Charizard aren't even good at it.

I've been thinking and without LGL and scrooging rules Jiggly may be a force just because she could be the only one to semi-compete with MK below the stage..

Just think! The whole metagame reduced to Jiggly/MK fighting beneath Smashville.

Spreading the word would be nice, especially to relevant TOs.


Perhaps crossing under the stage is better then, but I still see Pit's as a problem.

 

[Overswarm]

DEHF vs M2K finally happened? Are there videos? Was planking allowed?

M2K won, unsure on planking rules, close set

 

[Chuee]

M2K won the first set by a lucky stage spike to edgeguard when Larry had a 60% lead. Don't know about the others.

 

[Overswarm]

M2K won the first set by a lucky stage spike to edgeguard when Larry had a 60% lead. Don't know about the others.

(name), M2K didn't even use CPs until like last set and he kept letting Larry use BF where he is super good at. M2K was playing stupid as hell. or atleast NOT gay.

BAN BF!

All the info I've got, if you're wanting to say "lucky this" or "lame that"

 

[fkacyan]

Scrooging =/= Rising Pound under the stage, somehow?

Last I checked we had stalling rules to cover this already...?

 

[Kewkky]

Scrooging =/= Rising Pound under the stage, somehow?

Last I checked we had stalling rules to cover this already...?

Scrooging is with the aid of gliding. It's too fast for the vast majority of characters to outrun, unlike Rising pound... And if you pressure a Jiggs enough while she is under the stage, she'll eventually run out of jumps and die (a weakenss of her Rising Pound stall, it's only really useful for recoveri in the grand scheme of things), whereas scrooging characters have other means of returning to the ledges.

 

[Overswarm]

because a grouchy TO closed the other thread "OMG they're TALKING"

No, I mean thats why I said Ally. Ally wouldn't be up there if Marth ***** Snake lol.

Just like MK in tourneys now, Marth will be in high amounts, probably not grabbing the top, with a few holes where other players are squeezing in there.

I expect Marth to do similar things as MK is doing now, is what I'm saying, even though he isn't as good as a raw character, I find that he'll be working similarly to MK if he is gone.

Interesting thought, but I'm not sure how grounded in fact that is. Seems like a pretty big assertion, to me.

A chart we all know and love, the top characters point totals from the top 8 of 100+ entrant events. In other words, the big ones.

Marth's performance hasn't been too up to snuff; you can assume a lot of this is due to MK wrecking him for basically being a better Marth, but still... that's pretty shoddy performance.

1 Mew2King - MK
2 DEHF - Falco
3 Zex - MK/Marth
4 Felix - Diddy
5 Junk - DeDeDe/Marth
5 Zeionut - ?
7 Superboom - Snake
7 Sean - MK

1 Tyrant - MK
1 Mike - Marth/MK?
1 Havok - MK
4 Stauffy - Lucario
5 Brian H - Olimar
5 DSF - MK
7 Tearbear - MK
7 DAO - Diddy

Those are the points from the two tournaments posted, no changes to Ankokus numbers for entry fee / attendance and whatnot (meaning they were weighted equally).

Of course, I didn't know how to split a three way tie so I gave them all 1st place points for their characters. I dunno if that's how he does it, so I did it again.

That's if we assume MikeHaze got 1st, and the other two got 2nd and 3rd. This results in the lowest point total for MK, since MikeHaze also used Marth.

Marth does 2nd best, and is used only as a secondary. Falco does 3rd best, and was used by one person to get 2nd.

Just for kicks, if you replaced every other character at the tournaments with a single character, you'd get this:

using only the "non domination" tournament, combining every non MK character and using them as a single entity results in a 1 point gain.

When you combined these characters, it does get closer... it just seems WEIRD, doesn't it? You see a ton of MK popping up everywhere, but others don't appear more than once. How are these characters getting up so high in these tournaments with no other people maining them? That's incredibly rare in fighters. Why do we see so many individual characters going up against a league of MKs?

This data implies two things:

1. That character choice plays a much lower factor in your tournament placement than you'd expect from a fighting game

2. Metaknight breaks the previous rule


There isn't nearly enough data here to prove that, let alone anything, and I'd have to really think if the implications are what I think they are to be sure before doing research, but it's an interesting thought.

Does your character really matter? When does it start mattering?

From looking at Ankokus data:

S Rank «Uber» 43.23%
1 Meta Knight (179 top8, 126 top4, 72 top2, 75 wins, 452 total) - 4020.7
2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

A Rank «Overused» 20.67%
3 Diddy Kong (76 top8, 31 top4, 23 top2, 23 wins, 153 total) - 1325.6
4 Marth (42 top8, 37 top4, 15 top2, 14 wins, 108 total) - 877.9
5 Falco (59 top8, 38 top4, 15 top2, 8 wins, 120 total) - 686.0

B Rank «Standard» 17.28%
6 Ice Climbers (51 top8, 23 top4, 19 top2, 14 wins, 107 total) - 624.5 - A Rank
7 Wario (39 top8, 28 top4, 16 top2, 13 wins, 96 total) - 609.6
8 King Dedede (43 top8, 33 top4, 18 top2, 12 wins, 106 total) - 472.4
9 Olimar (29 top8, 21 top4, 10 top2, 7 wins, 67 total) - 358.6
10 Lucario (31 top8, 26 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins, 67 total) - 350.4

C Rank «Borderline» 12.86%
11 Mr. Game & Watch (42 top8, 12 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 63 total) - 243.8 - 15
12 Zero Suit Samus (30 top8, 14 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins, 49 total) - 220.0 - 13
13 Toon Link (18 top8, 7 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins, 29 total) - 201.2 - 16
14 Pikachu (19 top8, 8 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 36 total) - 195.9
15 Kirby (27 top8, 15 top4, 5 top2, 3 wins, 50 total) - 194.5 - 11
16 ROB (33 top8, 16 top4, 10 top2, 3 wins, 62 total) - 182.0 - 12
17 Donkey Kong (22 top8, 13 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins, 45 total) - 178.0
18 Wolf (17 top8, 4 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins, 30 total) - 136.7 - 22, D Rank
19 Pit (31 top8, 5 top4, 4 top2, 1 win, 41 total) - 124.2 - 18, D Rank
20 Sonic (16 top8, 8 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 28 total) - 122.1 - 21, D Rank

D Rank «Underused» 3.94%
21 Peach (28 top8, 10 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 42 total) - 117.8 - 19
22 Luigi (20 top8, 4 top4, 4 top2, 3 wins, 31 total) - 113.1 - 23
23 Ike (17 top8, 9 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins, 31 total) - 103.0 - 20
24 Pokémon Trainer (8 top8, 6 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 18 total) - 81.3 - 25
25 Fox (14 top8, 12 top4, 26 total) - 72.6 - 27
26 Zelda/Sheik (10 top8, 5 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 19 total) - 62.5 :shiek:

E Rank «Never Used» 2.03%
27 Link (3 top8, 1 top4, 1 win, 7 total) - 53.8 - 28
28 Ness (14 top8, 5 top4, 1 top2, 20 total) - 50.8 - 24
29 Yoshi (11 top8, 3 top4, 1 top2, 1 win, 16 total) - 43.1
30 Mario (15 top8, 1 top4, 2 top2, 2 wins, 20 total) - 36.1 - 31
31 Ganondorf (12 top8, 1 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins, 16 total) - 25.6 - 32
32 Bowser (6 top8, 3 top4, 1 win, 10 total) - 23.4 - 30
33 Lucas (1 top8, 2 top4, 1 top2, 1 win, 5 total) - 19.2
34 Samus (4 top8, 4 top4, 8 total) - 15.5
35 Captain Falcon (4 top8, 1 win, 5 total) - 11.2
36 Jigglypuff (1 top8, 2 top4, 3 total) - 5.1

From what I can see here, MK as a character choice clearly sets you apart from the pack. Snake does too, although literally about half as much as MK does. Diddy is sliiiightly out of reach too, but not by too much.

From Marth to Lucario, it's relatively even.

I'm just guessing in the dark here, but using a Borderline or below character seems to have a direct impact on tournament results while anything from Marth to Lucario allows for you to "overstep your limitations", as it were, if you're just a better player. D3 might not be a good character choice and get consistently *****, but a good D3 like CO18 can make it happen against lesser skilled opponents with an advantage.

I don't think it is a coincidence though that Diddy and Snake, the two most commonly claimed "MK killers" are the #2 and #3 characters though.

In an MK-oriented metagame, it appears as if competitive played should choose MK, and if not MK, Snake or Diddy. If you are an incredibly talented player, you can play any character from Marth to Lucario and overcome your disadvantage through player skill alone; this is less likely playing a borderline character and below.

This of course assumes matchup knowledge is consistent, the borderline character doesn't get to hard counter his entire bracket, etc., etc., but it's an interesting path one could choose to research.



For the rest of the post, I'm making the following assumptions:

-MK is banned
-matchups vs. Diddy and Snake are as we know it, and they are no longer considered stronger choices by the degree they are in the MK-centric metagame

While Snake and Diddy do phenomenally well in today's metagame, it's fairly obvious that they have a better shot vs. MK than any character below them... especially without rules aiding them. History has shown Snake to be a strong contender (he was originally "the guy to beat"), but we found counters that hit him hard early on and we currently see him having several even and disadvantaged matchups. In the long term, it is unlikely Snake will show as much dominance as he did in the early days of Brawl.


So going with that assumption, we know that

2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

A Rank «Overused» 20.67%
3 Diddy Kong (76 top8, 31 top4, 23 top2, 23 wins, 153 total) - 1325.6
4 Marth (42 top8, 37 top4, 15 top2, 14 wins, 108 total) - 877.9
5 Falco (59 top8, 38 top4, 15 top2, 8 wins, 120 total) - 686.0

B Rank «Standard» 17.28%
6 Ice Climbers (51 top8, 23 top4, 19 top2, 14 wins, 107 total) - 624.5 - A Rank
7 Wario (39 top8, 28 top4, 16 top2, 13 wins, 96 total) - 609.6
8 King Dedede (43 top8, 33 top4, 18 top2, 12 wins, 106 total) - 472.4
9 Olimar (29 top8, 21 top4, 10 top2, 7 wins, 67 total) - 358.6
10 Lucario (31 top8, 26 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins, 67 total) - 350.4

Are the currently "tournament viable" characters. Viable meaning you can play them and realistically expect to do well based on your skill and, should the need be, allow your own personal skill to overcome the opponent if you fight a tough match.

To determine what characters would be viable in the future with my above assumptions, you'd basically look at the characters in borderline:

C Rank «Borderline» 12.86%
11 Mr. Game & Watch (42 top8, 12 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 63 total) - 243.8 - 15
12 Zero Suit Samus (30 top8, 14 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins, 49 total) - 220.0 - 13
13 Toon Link (18 top8, 7 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins, 29 total) - 201.2 - 16
14 Pikachu (19 top8, 8 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 36 total) - 195.9
15 Kirby (27 top8, 15 top4, 5 top2, 3 wins, 50 total) - 194.5 - 11
16 ROB (33 top8, 16 top4, 10 top2, 3 wins, 62 total) - 182.0 - 12
17 Donkey Kong (22 top8, 13 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins, 45 total) - 178.0
18 Wolf (17 top8, 4 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins, 30 total) - 136.7 - 22, D Rank
19 Pit (31 top8, 5 top4, 4 top2, 1 win, 41 total) - 124.2 - 18, D Rank
20 Sonic (16 top8, 8 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 28 total) - 122.1 - 21, D Rank

I'll let you make your own conclusions here, but basically all of the characters from Snake to Lucario would be more viable than they were before (since the numbers show that Marth to Lucario is literally putting yourself at a disadvantage, just a winnable one if you outskill your opponent by a decent degree) and so we'd naturally we'd see more of them.

Any character in borderline that could have a decent number of advantaged and even matchups with the characters from Diddy-Lucario would now be considered viable, and any character that hard countered a few in that list would be quite useful secondaries.

Just a thought.

 

[gallax]

i saw a ness beat seibrik this weekend.

 

[Overswarm]

HOLY CRAP.

C Rank «Borderline» 12.86%
11 Mr. Game & Watch (42 top8, 12 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 63 total) - 243.8 - 15
12 Zero Suit Samus (30 top8, 14 top4, 2 top2, 3 wins, 49 total) - 220.0 - 13
13 Toon Link (18 top8, 7 top4, 1 top2, 3 wins, 29 total) - 201.2 - 16
14 Pikachu (19 top8, 8 top4, 5 top2, 4 wins, 36 total) - 195.9
15 Kirby (27 top8, 15 top4, 5 top2, 3 wins, 50 total) - 194.5 - 11
16 ROB (33 top8, 16 top4, 10 top2, 3 wins, 62 total) - 182.0 - 12
17 Donkey Kong (22 top8, 13 top4, 5 top2, 5 wins, 45 total) - 178.0
18 Wolf (17 top8, 4 top4, 6 top2, 3 wins, 30 total) - 136.7 - 22, D Rank
19 Pit (31 top8, 5 top4, 4 top2, 1 win, 41 total) - 124.2 - 18, D Rank
20 Sonic (16 top8, 8 top4, 3 top2, 1 win, 28 total) - 122.1 - 21, D Rank

I just realized that every single one of those characters has been consistently wrecked by Metaknight since forever. The best shot you have in that entire list is either ZSS or Pikachu. o_o

 

[UltiMario]

You know what I hate the most?

Screen-stretching post by OS, stretching the page and being annoying to read

 

[Overswarm]

i saw a ness beat seibrik this weekend.

I didn't say it was impossible; I said it was less likely.

 

[Kewkky]

You know what I hate the most?

Screen-stretching post by OS, stretching the page and being annoying to read

(Ctrl) + (-) = no more page stretches, my friend.

 

[Espy Rose]

HOLY CRAP.

I just realized that every single one of those characters has been consistently wrecked by Metaknight since forever. The best shot you have in that entire list is either ZSS or Pikachu. o_o

I lol'd pretty hard.

Yeah, Sonic gets beasted by Meta Knight.

 

[UltiMario]

But the text is smaller, which is even more annoying D:

 

[Sosuke]

You know what I hate the most?

Screen-stretching post by OS, stretching the page and being annoying to read

I have a pretty crappy monitor, but his posts don't stretch my screen.

 

[UltiMario]

My monitor is 10 years old.

Do you think that might have anything to do with the problem?

 

[fkacyan]

@OS: Many of those characters have more severe issues with other characters in the upper echelon of the tier list, and would actually suffer if more of those mains switched from MK to their problem character (ZSS arguably does better against MK than she does against Snake or D3*, Diddy, and definitely as far as Falco is concerned).

*Many ZSS players seem to think otherwise as far as these matchups are concerned, but I have yet to see them consistently won by ZSS.

 

[Kewkky]

I just realized that every single one of those characters has been consistently wrecked by Metaknight since forever. The best shot you have in that entire list is either ZSS or Pikachu. o_o

hey, Kirby does OK vs MK. It's not THAT disadvantaged of an MU, I've learned a lot about it! D:



And look where Nick Riddle's ZSS has got him, a place where G&W and the others haven't reached in forever: #1 at a large tourney.

*Many ZSS players seem to think otherwise as far as these matchups are concerned, but I have yet to see them consistently won by ZSS.

Best player in PR is a DDD mainer named LingLing. He agrees that ZSS is a very tough-to-beat *****, and if he makes a mistake he's eating a large amount of %/dead at 0%.