Official Metaknight Discussion

[Masmasher@]

Scrooging would fit into one of those (or possibly a neutral one, who knows?)... If it would be overcentralizing. Right now, scrooging is just a big a deal as planking was when it was first introduced to the metagame (way back when, when Plank vs DaPuffster happened [or maybe before?])... So, maybe just like what we've done with planking, we could allow scrooging to stay for a bit longer just to see if people pick up and use it more, or if it really has to be limited.

Yeah when i had the neither category it would only be temporary until futher testing

 

[Tien2500]

I definetely agree with this
Though i think their should be a category for neither.
After watching scrooging (its extremely gay by the way) I see it as not really developing the game but at the same time i dont see it a hinderance to game play ether. I almost see it like the EDC. its hard to enforce.

Well there is one incredibly easy way to enforce it........

Depending on how scrooging develops (or will if its not stopped immediately) it may **** over some characters. And that's kind of a problem because MK already has ways to **** over other characters. Some get wrecked by his tornado, others can't deal with planking, others can't deal with air camping, and some may have trouble with scrooging.

Other characters like Dedede, Wario and ICs have "gay" (I really hate using that term to describe a game tactic ) **** that can **** over some characters (not saying they have anything banworthy) but none of them have enough to **** over the entire cast.

 

[Turbo Ether]

In a nutshell:

Pro-ban philosophy: We believe that the game would be significantly more balanced, competitive and enjoyable without MK. His prescence greatly harms the diversity of viable characters.

Anti-ban philosophy: We're ok with having a pretty dominant character in the game. We don't believe that MK's prescence is currently unhealthy to the metagame.

 

[Pete278]

I think we should come up with a new term for gay techniques, since it currently looks a bit...childish.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think we should come up with a new term for gay techniques.

Yeah, they're called effective tactics.

 

[theunabletable]

Personally I wish we could use the word "cheap".

They mean the some god **** thing. Gay and cheap are the exact same things. So what if it's a term scrubs generally use? Just because scrubs use the term doesn't mean that using the term makes you a scrub.

 

[iRJi]

So... is this over?

 

[Remzi]

The BBR would probably be fine with messing with the items list as little as possible if it did not do something bad in-game. As it is, Dedede can throw Smash Balls, and his chances of randomly throwing an item are actually pretty high. The choices are - leave the items alone, and let him toss out pretty much anything; turn off the items that might be too strong, leading to an additional set of things to make legal or not; or, turn off all items. Since leaving all the items on does a little too much, and we don't want to add unnecessary complexity to items rules just for Dedede, we turned the items off.

got all that last time

Did I just explain this to you in three different ways? If you still don't get it I'm not gonna bother again.

You shouldn't have bothered since you didn't even answer my new question. Doesn't matter anymore. Chill, nobody's forcing you to answer anything. I just figured the effect of Peach pulling a bomb-omb is about in line with D3 throwing an exploding capsule, so that's why I asked what I did last post.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Cheap=gay=effective.


If somebody is saying I'm being cheap I take it as a good thing, though unfortunately marth doesn't offer many of those opportunities to use supergay camping tactics. I'm an extremely campy marth and nobody notices how gay it is cause I camp on their shield/ slightly out of their range depending on the MU.



I want people to make threads about how gay I play too!

So... is this over?

It's never over!


OS never responded to my post and never took me up on my offer. Afraid of me maybe, or maybe he realized that my assertion is a lot easier to defend then Omni's was.

 

[Zankoku]

You shouldn't have bothered since you didn't even answer my new question. Doesn't matter anymore. Chill, nobody's forcing you to answer anything. I just figured the effect of Peach pulling a bomb-omb is about in line with D3 throwing an exploding capsule, so that's why I asked what I did last post.

I pretty much told you that if the items list affected Peach's items, and nobody else's, but she couldn't pull the dumb **** (Smash Balls, etc.) regardless of whether they were on or not, then it's fine. What's wrong with throwing an explosive capsule? Last I checked, a Gordo had approximately similar destructive potential. If you were asking whether or not the BBR tries to directly change how the game plays in some attempt at rebalancing.... no, no we don't.

I'm so glad you understand what the BBR does now.

Not.

 

[BSP]

So, is it still thought that MK breaks the CP system, or has that changed?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I pretty much told you that if the items list affected Peach's items, and nobody else's, but she couldn't pull the dumb **** (Smash Balls, etc.) regardless of whether they were on or not, then it's fine. What's wrong with throwing an explosive capsule? Last I checked, a Gordo had approximately similar destructive potential. If you were asking whether or not the BBR tries to directly change how the game plays in some attempt at rebalancing.... no, no we don't.

I'm so glad you understand what the BBR does now.

Not.

What? You guys don't rebalance the game, then why you'd you ban planking... oh wait that was just a lot of TOs.

Well what about DDD's infi... oh wait, that was TOs again.

Hey, what about Marth's dea... still TOs.



Makes me wonder why people don't listen to the BBR more, *sigh*



Also, your sig is amazing, what are the characters from, I recognized the dance immediately though.

 

[rathy Aro]

cheap/gay does NOT equal effective. Gay things are usually effective (not always) but all effective things are not gay. If something is difficult to execute, I typically wouldn't call it gay, because I know it wasn't simple to do. On the other hand some people might thing rapid jabs are gay (or pit's sideB), but everyone who knows how to sdi knows they aren't effective.

 

[Remzi]

I pretty much told you that if the items list affected Peach's items, and nobody else's, but she couldn't pull the dumb **** (Smash Balls, etc.) regardless of whether they were on or not, then it's fine. What's wrong with throwing an explosive capsule? Last I checked, a Gordo had approximately similar destructive potential. If you were asking whether or not the BBR tries to directly change how the game plays in some attempt at rebalancing.... no, no we don't.

I'm so glad you understand what the BBR does now.

Not.

Gordos can't be turned off, neither can G&W's random hammer, or Luigi's explosion.

Not saying rebalancing, just keep the game "fair" I guess. I mean if you're ok with random factors that reward a player for no real reason, you may as well be ok with certain items on low also...

 

[adumbrodeus]

cheap/gay does NOT equal effective. Gay things are usually effective (not always) but all effective things are not gay. If something is difficult to execute, I typically wouldn't call it gay, because I know it wasn't simple to do. On the other hand some people might thing rapid jabs are gay (or pit's sideB), but everyone who knows how to sdi knows they aren't effective.

Who calls rapid jabs gay?


Air-planking is not easy to execute, people still call it "gay".



Your definition of "gay tactics" seems to be very different from the Brawl community in general.

 

[rathy Aro]

Okay, what about consistently reading your opponent and conditioning him. Certainly this is very effective if you can do it properly. Is it gay?

edit: is dair camping with mk the same as air planking? If that's the case I always though mk's dair camp was actually pretty easy to do.

 

[Kewkky]

What people call "cheap" are effective and easy/spammable stuff.

What people call "gay" are things that make your opponent squeal in anger because of how you've limited their options with them, and they're just left with watching themselves lose.

What people DON'T call "cheap" or "gay" are the really hard-to-pull-off, attractive-to-the-eye, positive-impacting moves/tactics like crazy combos, timed sequenced attacks, perfect measurement and domination of a hard-to-use character... In PR, I haven't heard of a single person call Melee Fox "cheap" or "gay", but I HAVE heard of people (not top players, of course) calling Jigglypuff "cheap", Melee Sheik's dthrow chain "gay", and Melee Marth/Sheik overall a mix of both.


That's just how people view things, why bother with changing the names? Just keep on debating why you just won't jump from anti-ban to pro-ban, or vice-versa.

 

[rathy Aro]

It is scrubbier to limit MK's ability to play to win than it is to outright ban him.

No, why would it be?

What people call "cheap" are effective and easy/spammable stuff.

What people call "gay" are things that make your opponent squeal in anger because of how you've limited their options with them, and they're just left with watching themselves lose.

What people DON'T call "cheap" or "gay" are the really hard-to-pull-off, attractive-to-the-eye, positive-impacting moves/tactics... In PR, I haven't heard of a single person call Melee Fox "cheap" or "gay", but I HAVE heard of people calling Jigglypuff "cheap", Melee Sheik's dthrow chain "gay", and MeleeMarth/Sheik overall a mix of both.


That's just how people view things, why bother with changing the names? Just keep on debating why you just won't jump from anti-ban to pro-ban, or vice-versa.

Disregard all I said on this subject. I agree with everything Kewkky said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What people call "cheap" are effective and easy/spammable stuff.

What people call "gay" are things that make your opponent squeal in anger because of how you've limited their options with them, and they're just left with watching themselves lose.

What people DON'T call "cheap" or "gay" are the really hard-to-pull-off, attractive-to-the-eye, positive-impacting moves/tactics like crazy combos, timed sequenced attacks, perfect measurement and domination of a hard-to-use character... In PR, I haven't heard of a single person call Melee Fox "cheap" or "gay", but I HAVE heard of people (not top players, of course) calling Jigglypuff "cheap", Melee Sheik's dthrow chain "gay", and Melee Marth/Sheik overall a mix of both.


That's just how people view things, why bother with changing the names? Just keep on debating why you just won't jump from anti-ban to pro-ban, or vice-versa.

You haven't heard people call laser camping with fox cheap or gay? Really?

Okay, what about consistently reading your opponent and conditioning him. Certainly this is very effective if you can do it properly. Is it gay?

edit: is dair camping with mk the same as air planking? If that's the case I always though mk's dair camp was actually pretty easy to do.

Depends on your style, if it's defensive, generally yes.

Maybe I should be more precise though, being effective is a necessary attribute for a tactic to be gay, but not a sufficient one.



Aka, all gay tactics are effective, but not all effective tactics are gay.



As far as air-planking, it's multi-character, wario is more known for it. Regardless, MK's dair-camping is easy in theory, difficult in practice because it puts you in a great position (depending on the MU), but it's also a vulnerable position, so you still gotta read and react to your opponent.

 

[Kewkky]

You haven't heard people call laser camping with fox cheap or gay? Really?

What people DON'T call "cheap" or "gay" are the really hard-to-pull-off, attractive-to-the-eye, positive-impacting moves/tactics like crazy combos, timed sequenced attacks, perfect measurement and domination of a hard-to-use character... In PR, I haven't heard of a single person call Melee Fox "cheap" or "gay...

Nope. I guess we got a code that goes without saying on this, huh?

 

[Zankoku]

Not saying rebalancing

just keep the game "fair"

So, not rebalancing, just.... rebalancing. Okay then.

Items are set to "None" due to player preference, from what I've heard; though results remained relatively consistent with items on, the majority of players during the Melee period simply preferred the game without items, and it pretty much carried over to Brawl.

Also, your sig is amazing, what are the characters from, I recognized the dance immediately though.

They're from the Touhou Project series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igew34aUpTw

 

[Dark 3nergy]

What people call "cheap" are effective and easy/spammable stuff.

What people call "gay" are things that make your opponent squeal in anger because of how you've limited their options with them, and they're just left with watching themselves lose.

What people DON'T call "cheap" or "gay" are the really hard-to-pull-off, attractive-to-the-eye, positive-impacting moves/tactics like crazy combos, timed sequenced attacks, perfect measurement and domination of a hard-to-use character... In PR, I haven't heard of a single person call Melee Fox "cheap" or "gay", but I HAVE heard of people (not top players, of course) calling Jigglypuff "cheap", Melee Sheik's dthrow chain "gay", and Melee Marth/Sheik overall a mix of both.


That's just how people view things, why bother with changing the names? Just keep on debating why you just won't jump from anti-ban to pro-ban, or vice-versa.

so what do you call a combination of the words; "cheap,gay,broken?"

Spoiler

possiblymetaknightbutimprollywrong

since theres much more gayer things like being infinited by ICs

 

[Remzi]

So, not rebalancing, just.... rebalancing. Okay then.

I'd consider rebalancing making it fair for the characters.

What I'm talking about with randomness is making it fair for the players. It's quite possible I just have my definitions confused.

Items are set to "None" due to player preference, from what I've heard; though results remained relatively consistent with items on, the majority of players during the Melee period simply preferred the game without items, and it pretty much carried over to Brawl.

Player preference is what decides the BBR ruleset now? Since when? If thats the case, why the HELL is MK still on the roster? Pretty sure if it came down to player preference, MK would have been banned by the BBR ages ago. Pro-ban did win the majority three straight times now after all.

 

[rathy Aro]

Aka, all gay tactics are effective, but not all effective tactics are gay.

That's what I was getting at. Though I wouldn't say ALL gay tactics are effective.

 

[adumbrodeus]

They're from the Touhou Project series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igew34aUpTw

That was amazing, too bad geocities is down now.

Nope. I guess we got a code that goes without saying on this, huh?

Lol, I guess so.

That's what I was getting at. Though I wouldn't say ALL gay tactics are effective.

At the level of play they're called gay... yes, they are.

Player preference is what decides the BBR ruleset now? Since when? If thats the case, why the HELL is MK still on the roster? Pretty sure if it came down to player preference, MK would have been banned by the BBR ages ago. Pro-ban did win the majority three straight times now after all.

Cause it's a tournament settings issue as opposed to a ban, just like items in general.

 

[Kewkky]

so what do you call a combination of the words; "cheap,gay,broken?"

Spoiler

possiblymetaknightbutimprollywrong

igotinb4'dlol

I dunno... A clearly cheap and gay broken strategy that's very effective? I'd call it broken.

since theres much more gayer things like being infinited by ICs

Being infinited CAN feel pretty gay... But I wouldn't call it cheap. Getting those grabs to connect can be a ***** depending on what characters you're fighting, so it's not really effective all of the time. In fact, looking for the grab alone can cost you the whole match, and even though ICs can cg you to death, they can still be 3-stocked even at their highest levels of play. Now, 3-stocking a Wario at the highest levels of play... THAT'S a feat!

 

[Zankoku]

Player preference is what decides the BBR ruleset now? Since when? If thats the case, why the HELL is MK still on the roster? Pretty sure if it came down to player preference, MK would have been banned by the BBR ages ago. Pro-ban did win the majority three straight times now after all.

Vast player preference. The same level that caused ledge grab limits and anti-scrooging rules to be put in place without the BBR's acknowledgement. Unless you're claiming that TOs are willing to listen regarding Meta Knight's ban, but not all that other stuff. Like it or not, player preference sets standards. The BBR did not originally decide "we will play on 3 stocks," nor do I believe they were the deciding factor of "Melee will be played in 4 stocks instead of 5." They did make the rule "Wobbling doesn't deserve banning" in Melee, yet you still see rules among the East Coast tournaments banning the technique. You'll notice the thread reads Recommended Rules, rules that simply echo a tournament standard. If people so strongly wanted Meta Knight to be banned, the BBR would have as much say in it as they did about items.

 

[Kewkky]

Or, like it's been mentioned before but some people are too blind to read and refuse to understand... A super majority (2/3 of the community) in the boards and/or backroom.

If enough TOs (a super majority) suddenly started implementing the same rule in each tourney outside of the SBR's Recommended Ruleset, the community had an increase in tourney attendance due to it, but the SBR didn't directly approve of the rule for whatever reason, what would be the SBR's reaction? Would they add it to their Recommended Ruleset? I'd like to know.

 

[Zankoku]

If enough TOs (a super majority) suddenly started implementing the same rule in each tourney outside of the SBR's Recommended Ruleset, the community had an increase in tourney attendance due to it, but the SBR didn't directly approve of the rule for whatever reason, what would be the SBR's reaction? Would they add it to their Recommended Ruleset? I'd like to know.

Pretty much. Usually when a rule gets decided and implemented like that, it happens before the BBR even comes to making a decision on it. At which point, need for testing and such is already covered in the form of the entire country already using it.

 

[Remzi]

Vast player preference. The same level that caused ledge grab limits and anti-scrooging rules to be put in place without the BBR's acknowledgement. Unless you're claiming that TOs are willing to listen regarding Meta Knight's ban, but not all that other stuff. Like it or not, player preference sets standards. The BBR did not originally decide "we will play on 3 stocks," nor do I believe they were the deciding factor of "Melee will be played in 4 stocks instead of 5." They did make the rule "Wobbling doesn't deserve banning" in Melee, yet you still see rules among the East Coast tournaments banning the technique. You'll notice the thread reads Recommended Rules, rules that simply echo a tournament standard. If people so strongly wanted Meta Knight to be banned, the BBR would have as much say in it as they did about items.

Hell, even Overswarm, the biggest pro-ban advocate out there, refuses to ban MK at his tourneys until the BBR approves because of the effects it would have on his community. More than 50 % of the brawl community wants MK gone, yet so rarely do we actually see an MK banned tourney, so I'd say the BBR ruleset has a bigger effect than you're making it out to.

I understand you now though, just needed some clarification.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

igotinb4'dlol

I dunno... A clearly cheap and gay broken strategy that's very effective? I'd call it broken.


Being infinited CAN feel pretty gay... But I wouldn't call it cheap. Getting those grabs to connect can be a ***** depending on what characters you're fighting, so it's not really effective all of the time. In fact, looking for the grab alone can cost you the whole match, and even though ICs can cg you to death, they can still be 3-stocked even at their highest levels of play. Now, 3-stocking a Wario at the highest levels of play... THAT'S a feat!

Cheap and IC infinite arent two words i'd put together either since learning and preforming said infinite is hard to do.

I think people choose to use the words gay,cheap, broken against MK only because they themselves havent upgraded their mentality to higher levels of play. Knowing the MU is half the battle, but knowing how to deal with MKs moveset and knowing your options at ANY particular situation or circumstance you arrive to is what lets you get the edge over the MK to win. Looking at the people who are whining about the MK MU, then looking at their main/tournie record and be the judge for yourself. Its typically the people that are holding themselves back, not challenging themselves and looking for the easy way out, al a banning MK instead of playing at your peak level.

You ever seen someone stuck in that "i cant win against MK" mentality? Its like a disease, and you can see it here and in other places people ***** about MK. Its so pathetic to watch people waste time and engery whining about WHAT IFs and I CANTS. Rather than going out there finding a high level MK and fighting him for hours to try to iron out your mistakes.

 

[Omni]

just sayin...

if anti-ban rallys up a good amount of TO's to never ban Metaknight then... Metaknight will never be banned period. the regions that do end up banning MK will be simply hurting their players if they ever attempt to go OOS.

if would be more difficult to do for pro-ban to do since Metaknight not being banned has been the status quo.

as pro-ban, i really hope someone from anti-ban doesn't take the initiative to gain that 100% support from a good amount of TO's. that wouldn't be good

 

[fkacyan]

just sayin...

if anti-ban rallys up a good amount of TO's to never ban Metaknight then... Metaknight will never be banned period. the regions that do end up banning MK will be simply hurting their players if they ever attempt to go OOS.

if would be more difficult to do for pro-ban to do since Metaknight not being banned has been the status quo.

as pro-ban, i really hope someone from anti-ban doesn't take the initiative to gain that 100% support from a good amount of TO's. that wouldn't be good

Oh Omni, you reverse psychology guy you.

 

[Kewkky]

Cheap and IC infinite arent two words i'd put together either since learning and preforming said infinite is hard to do.

Well, I personally have always thought that IC's infinites are easy to learn. All it takes is timing, you don't need crazy button combinations that fail if you buffer them or something of the sort.

I think people choose to use the words gay,cheap, broken against MK only because they themselves havent upgraded their mentality to higher levels of play.

There's a couple of top-level players who want Mk gone. I'm pretty sure their mentalities are top-notch for Brawl's competitive scene.

Knowing the MU is half the battle, but knowing how to deal with MKs moveset and knowing your options at ANY particular situation or circumstance you arrive to is what lets you get the edge over the MK to win. Looking at the people who are whining about the MK MU, then looking at their main/tournie record and be the judge for yourself. Its typically the people that are holding themselves back, not challenging themselves and looking for the easy way out, al a banning MK instead of playing at your peak level.

You're viewing all of this from the opponent's perspective, not MK's perspective. MK also has access to the same options we do, you know!

Rather than going out there finding a high level MK and fighting him for hours to try to iron out your mistakes.

Hmm, you DO know that as you practice against the higher-leveled MK, he's practicing against you too, right? His tools are always better than yours, if you give him access to your patterns and tricks he'll iron them out and punish you harder than you should be able to punish him... That's probably why people keep complaining, because since MK's MU are always at a slight advantage or higher, people have to work harder than the MK to win, and if the MK learns how you play while you learn how to play him, the battle only keeps getting harder.

 

[ANTi_]

as pro-ban, i really hope someone from anti-ban doesn't take the initiative to gain that 100% support from a good amount of TO's. that wouldn't be good

I'LL DO IT!!!!!!!!!

List so Far
------------

Alex Strife (Anti-ban)
Inui (Even though he doesn't host much anymore lol)
Wes (MAYBE)
Bum (Most likely)

 

[D. Disciple]

I was thinking of those same TO's Anti.

 

[dcubed]

I personally think MK shouldn't be banned, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few changes to the rules to accommodate to him. I find it unfair that he has no "bad" matchups, on top of the fact that he can play on any level well. To help lower his matchups, limit MK to only neutral stages in tournament play, unless the opponent to MK doesn't mind going somewhere else. I personally think a great snake will beat a great MK any day on a neutral stage, so if this happened, you would see the matchup I think, go into snake's favor! This could even happen with Diddy, IC, and possibly others.

 

[Omni]

oh nooes.

well, i hope Anti doesn't speak directly to these TO's and convince them to become an Official MK Allowed region. if other anti-ban players did the same for their select region, well gosh, we would be putting an end to the MK Debate FOREVER.

i really hope those anti-ban guys don't PM me with confirmed TO's willing to put their foot down and bring this MK debate to a close. i wouldn't want to add on to the list i already have that has been growing for the past for few months because as pro-ban i would be deeply effected by this

 

[iceman48]

just sayin...

if anti-ban rallys up a good amount of TO's to never ban Metaknight then... Metaknight will never be banned period. the regions that do end up banning MK will be simply hurting their players if they ever attempt to go OOS.

if would be more difficult to do for pro-ban to do since Metaknight not being banned has been the status quo.

as pro-ban, i really hope someone from anti-ban doesn't take the initiative to gain that 100% support from a good amount of TO's. that wouldn't be good

You wouldn't need a ton of TOs to have banned tournies. The reason most pro-ban TOs don't run MK-banned tournies is because the participants wouldn't get any MK practice, and they would just get slaughtered at any big event (or at least that's the reason why we didn't here in La). You wouldn't need a bunch of small to medium tournies with him banned, you'd need a couple large ones. Maybe two or three nationals, then all the small ones would follow suit. After all, why would you train with a character that you can't even use at a big event?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My new stance:

Don't ban MK. Instead, the BBR should release a statement against scrooging and planking rules. These scrubby rules prevent MK players from playing to win.

A year after these rules are admonished, OS should release new data for the past year.