Official Metaknight Discussion

[MarKO X]

As I said before, we're really banning IDC for stalling purposes, and the only line that we can draw that makes the ban discrete and enforcable is banning the technique as a whole. Sure, it might not make banning IDC itself enforcable, but it easily makes banning it for stalling purposes enforcable.

Yeah, I understood that, but by the time I could read it, I was in the process of posting. You know how that works.

You misunderstand what "discrete" means in the context of banning. It means that if something is the best, banning what you're banning doesn't create a next-best tactic that is simply slightly less, you're rolling discrete and enforceable together.


The best tactic is to use 49 ledgegrabs.

I see. Okay, I get it now.

All Star festivities are boring at the moment.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Immediately Ban-worthy Glitches

There are some things so extreme that they can be banned without much testing. These include glitches that crash the game or have radical effects, such as blanking out the opponent’s entire screen, removing his characters, units, or resources from the game, and so forth. Glitches so extreme that they undeniably end or prevent gameplay are worthy of being banned. Likewise, so are glitches that are not equally available to all players. Some glitches in a two player game can only be performed by player 2. It is reasonable to ban such a tactic, even if it’s not overly powerful, just on the basis that all players do not have equal access to it.

IDC

10IDCs

 

[Sosuke]

Because he attacks with a character outside of himself.

A lot of characters in fighting games can do this. >_>

 

[MarKO X]

Because he attacks with a character outside of himself.

Oh, so the dudes in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure can beat Ivan Ooze? Word?

 

[UltiMario]

One think I like to mention for people that are less lazy than me and still feel like arguing LGLs, heres just some random point for you to throw out.

The planker has to COUNT EVERY SINGLE LEDGEGRAB IN THE MATCH. We're all human, so we know that this is difficult. When you think you're at 49, you might be at 45, forcing you to come on the offense too early, which might cost you the match. On the other hand, you could actually be at 51, and you just plain LOSE the match.

 

[MarKO X]

One think I like to mention for people that are less lazy than me and still feel like arguing LGLs, heres just some random point for you to throw out.

The planker has to COUNT EVERY SINGLE LEDGEGRAB IN THE MATCH. We're all human, so we know that this is difficult. When you think you're at 49, you might be at 45, forcing you to come on the offense too early, which might cost you the match. On the other hand, you could actually be at 51, and you just plain LOSE the match.

What's even worse?
You can purposely grab the ledge more than 50 times, and psyche your opponent out to try and time you out so that he can win.

 

[•Col•]

This, this, this.

The best bans do not leave problems in their wake. IDC may be hard to see sometimes if you aren't looking for it (I disagree, but for the sake of argument we'll say it is) but once ICD is banned, it is banned.

Well.... M2k used it against Dojo where everyone at the venue was watching, including the TO, and got he away with it... >_>

You can sneak in a short EDC in pretty easily and get away with it, as long as you aren't doing it a bunch of times. So it's not to hard to get away with using the IDC/EDC for non-stalling purposes. But even then.... Does the best character in the game REALLY need a technique that allows him to bypass pretty much every single "trap" in the game? :/

 

[UltiMario]

What's even worse?
You can purposely grab the ledge more than 50 times, and psyche your opponent out to try and time you out so that he can win.

Ummmm, I don't see the point in this.

We're talking about playing to win here, so I don't see why this arguement matters, unless I misread it.

This shouldn't matter to me now that I think about it, but.... just sayin'

 

[ShadowLink84]

The planker has to COUNT EVERY SINGLE LEDGEGRAB IN THE MATCH. We're all human, so we know that this is difficult. When you think you're at 49, you might be at 45, forcing you to come on the offense too early, which might cost you the match. On the other hand, you could actually be at 51, and you just plain LOSE the match.

This is sig worthy. I am keeping this.


Edit: Ulti its because you sound like an idiot that he made such a statement. DUR

 

[Sosuke]

The planker has to COUNT EVERY SINGLE LEDGEGRAB IN THE MATCH. We're all human, so we know that this is difficult. When you think you're at 49, you might be at 45, forcing you to come on the offense too early, which might cost you the match. On the other hand, you could actually be at 51, and you just plain LOSE the match.

Counting is not hard. This is easier then figuring out when to use Wario's fart.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What's even worse?
You can purposely grab the ledge more than 50 times, and psyche your opponent out to try and time you out so that he can win.

Depends on the ruleset, some rules you can grab the ledge more then 50 times and still win because it only goes into effect if it goes to time. Others it's 50 ledgegrabs to lose. Or 30, at snes (where I tried to plank SK92) it was 30.

Well.... M2k used it against Dojo where everyone at the venue was watching, including the TO, and got he away with it... >_>

You can sneak in a short EDC in pretty easily and get away with it, as long as you aren't doing it a bunch of times. So it's not to hard to get away with using the IDC/EDC for non-stalling purposes. But even then.... Does the best character in the game REALLY need a technique that allows him to bypass pretty much every single "trap" in the game? :/

Honestly, short IDC spurts does really little, the invincability doesn't kick in soon enough to escape traps, and it doesn't go far enough to not be punishable.

The point of banning IDC is to prevent stalling, it's impossible to differentiate between using it and using it for stalling purposes in a discrete enforcable way, that's why it was banned.

 

[UltiMario]

Just saying you might miss a grab count somewhere in 8 minutes.

Actually, you wouldn't miss a single count if you planned on planking since the match started, so whatever that can mean......

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just saying you might miss a grab count somewhere in 8 minutes.

Actually, you wouldn't miss a single count if you planned on planking since the match started, so whatever that can mean......

I always count my ledgegrabs if there's a grab limit, even though I play marth who can't plank for ****.


I think most people who plank or would consider planking count their ledgegrabs, heck, ledge-heavy characters in general probably do.

 

[•Col•]

Honestly, short IDC spurts does really little, the invincability doesn't kick in soon enough to escape traps, and it doesn't go far enough to not be punishable.

The point of banning IDC is to prevent stalling, it's impossible to differentiate between using it and using it for stalling purposes in a discrete enforcable way, that's why it was banned.

Yeah, I was talking about if the EDC wasn't banned, then it could be used to get past traps. You can use really short ones to get past some traps and go unpunishable, mostly because usually the person you use it against is expecting you to land somewhere else and they just assume they misjudged the typical dimenional cape's range.

Hate to bring it up again, but it's really the only example I have... -_- M2k was stuck on the ledge and having trouble getting back up onto the stage. He ledgehopped an EDC to get past Dojo. Dojo used an fsmash (or was it dsmash? I cant remember... Anyway, it was SOME attack) where M2k should've landed, but since he used the EDC he landed outside of range.

But yeah... I don't completely understand why the IDC is banned for stalling pruposes.... Isn't it pretty much impossible to do for a whole match? Maybe it's because you can throw out an attack at any time without being able to be punished?

 

[Zankoku]

But yeah... I don't completely understand why the IDC is banned for stalling pruposes.... Isn't it pretty much impossible to do for a whole match? Maybe it's because you can throw out an attack at any time without being able to be punished?

It certainly is difficult, but once we got physical proof that someone could perform it for 8 minutes non-stop we decided that it wasn't worth waiting for that to happen in tournament.

 

[BSP]

God, that would be an EXTREMELY annoying 8 minutes, in which you couldn't do anything if you happened to be behind.

 

[MarKO X]

you don't even need to do it for 8 minutes straight.
you get a lead, do it for like 1 min 23 seconds.
take a small break.
scroog a little
then begin again.

IDC beats Super Sonic. :D:D:D

 

[Remzi]

It's like going to a club and seeing a sign that says "No Drinking".

Then you go into the club, pull a beer out of your pocket, and drink it. And this is totally acceptable.

Nah, because in the brawl ruleset, all it says is that: "items are set to 'off' and 'none'"
if it said, "the usage of items is banned," we'd have a different case altogether.

if you wanna compare it to brawl, the sign on the club might say, "we don't sell drinks"

Regarding Peach, D3, Luigi, and G&W randomness:

it appears to me that the SBR tries to limit uncontrollable aspects of the game as much as possible. we turn each item off rather than just setting them to none so that D3 cannot throw out a capsule, smashball, or whatever. I'm sure if they could turn off Peach's bomb-ombs/sword/saturn, they'd do that too.

that being said, it isn't like the moves are so terribly game changing that we'd have to ban the move or the character alltogether.

 

[Palpi]

Is there even an argument anymore ?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Received a phone call after the tournament in Mass today.

1. Fatal (Snake)
2. Shadow (MK)
3. Diem (MK)

 

[Kewkky]

Is there even an argument anymore ?

I don't think so. The only anti-ban who showed signs of having an open mind towards changing his position was Omni, and he went pro-ban. I have no idea who in the pro-ban side is gonna change to anti-ban, though, so they're pretty much just talking about nothing. Still, who knows? Maybe someone else will change his position just because of some random fact that might come up with all this pointless arguing.

I dunno what's going on inside the SBR-B. For all I know, nothing's happening and they're laughing at us for dragging this on for so long, and Omni decided to join in the festivities by making himself pro-ban and make us think that we accomplished something, or that he actually researched stuff and found that MK should be banned after all... SO meh, let everyone vent out what they want, and the few who know there's nothing really worth replying to just lurk the thread until something does actually come up.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

so whens the new tier list coming?

 

[deepseadiva]

Soon
________

 

[GwJ]

Mid-March I hear.

 

[Zankoku]

it appears to me that the SBR tries to limit uncontrollable aspects of the game as much as possible. we turn each item off rather than just setting them to none so that D3 cannot throw out a capsule, smashball, or whatever. I'm sure if they could turn off Peach's bomb-ombs/sword/saturn, they'd do that too.

Not really. If we wanted to limit uncontrollable aspects as much as possible we'd recommend banning any stages that aren't starter, too. The problem with Dedede was that his item generation was directly based on the item list, and the item list itself has some grossly overpowered items (Poké Ball, Smash Ball, Assist Trophy). To adjust which ones could be thrown manually would be rather silly, since it would both take up a lot more rules space and time to properly set systems up, AND be an arbitrary manipulation of the rules for one character.

 

[san.]

Anyone else still waiting for Overswarm's completed vid of the 'new' discovery?

Was there a response to Overswarm's post filled with graphs with the comparison of Diddy and snake's results in comparison to MK? I may have overlooked it.

The general opinion pertaining to this debate has obviously changed quite a bit, to the point where I notice more people taking definite stances when they were previously on the fence. It would be pretty interesting to see what changes took place.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

its not new its pivot shenanigans done really fast

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually, it's done so fast that the game reads it as an attempt to return your character to a neutral state.

 

[Spelt]

imo it seems like some definite anti-banners went either to a softer anti-ban stance or completely on the fence, while some people who were on the fence are now pro-ban.

haven't seen anybody claim the opposite yet.

 

[Remzi]

Not really. If we wanted to limit uncontrollable aspects as much as possible we'd recommend banning any stages that aren't starter, too. The problem with Dedede was that his item generation was directly based on the item list, and the item list itself has some grossly overpowered items (Poké Ball, Smash Ball, Assist Trophy). To adjust which ones could be thrown manually would be rather silly, since it would both take up a lot more rules space and time to properly set systems up, AND be an arbitrary manipulation of the rules for one character.

Eh, I knew "uncontrollable" would be taken the wrong way and somebody would bring up stages. By uncontrollable I mean things that are completely random and you can't take a precaution to, such as D3 throwing an exploding capsule, tripping, or some of the Flat Zone hazards. A lot of counterpick stage hazards, while random, can be avoided by taking certain measures.

 

[Zankoku]

You can easily prevent Dedede throwing an explosive capsule by turning capsules off. The same can be said of any other items that might cause some huge effect. The problem then becomes where to draw the line with a consistent criteria for all the items. Far simpler to just turn all items off.

 

[Remzi]

You can easily prevent Dedede throwing an explosive capsule by turning capsules off. The same can be said of any other items that might cause some huge effect. The problem then becomes where to draw the line with a consistent criteria for all the items. Far simpler to just turn all items off.

Well I'm assuming the reason all items are set to off is because of D3's waddle dee throw, with capsules and smashballs and all that nonsense. Am I also wrong in guessing that if this was not an issue for D3, but by turning off bomb-ombs peach could not randomly pluck one, the SBR would like turn all items off again for this reason?

 

[Zankoku]

The BBR would probably be fine with messing with the items list as little as possible if it did not do something bad in-game. As it is, Dedede can throw Smash Balls, and his chances of randomly throwing an item are actually pretty high. The choices are - leave the items alone, and let him toss out pretty much anything; turn off the items that might be too strong, leading to an additional set of things to make legal or not; or, turn off all items. Since leaving all the items on does a little too much, and we don't want to add unnecessary complexity to items rules just for Dedede, we turned the items off.

Did I just explain this to you in three different ways? If you still don't get it I'm not gonna bother again.

 

[Xyro77]

wait, omni is pro ban? GET OUT! there is NO way hes pro-ban now.

 

[Masmasher@]

It certainly is difficult, but once we got physical proof that someone could perform it for 8 minutes non-stop we decided that it wasn't worth waiting for that to happen in tournament.

This post made me choke on my twix lmfao.
banning a overcentralizing tactic is different then banning a character. When the tactic trancends the character/game itself then you should ban the tactic instead.

Though i wonder why roll canceling wasnt banned in capcom vs SNK 2
that tactic clearly overcentralized the game.

 

[Tien2500]

I never really played CvS 2 at a pro level but I was a pretty devoted amateur. The window for a roll cancel is very small, I believe three frames. Its also something that would be very very difficult to monitor consistently in a tournament setting.

 

[Kewkky]

Overcentralizing can be seen in two ways: positive impact, and negative impact. Wavedashing and L-Cancelling are overcentralizing in Melee: you either learn how to do these, or don't even bother coming to tourneys. Still, when seen from everyone's point of view, these tactics bring a whole new level of depth to the game, and spread out even more the varying skill levels between players, making it an even better game than it was originally. I see nothing wrong with banning this "overcentralizing" tactic, and I think you would agree as well, because it has brought with it countless positive impacts into the game... A negative-impacting overcentralizing element could be seen as an incredibly powerful character (the game's variety dies as soon as everyone has to play it or work really really really really hard to win [or lose], as was the case with Ivan Ooze, Akuma SF2, and other banned "broken" characters), an infinite on the whole cast with lots of range and room for error, a maneuver that ends up teleporting a character outside of the game's boundaries, etc... You get the idea. Stuff that hinders the game, rather that helps develop it.

If there's no viable ban criteria present, then these "overcentralizing" elements should be dealt with through trial and error, putting the tactics to the test and seeing if it's worth it leaving them running rampant for players to abuse, or if it's better off removing them from tournament play.


At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Masmasher@]

Overcentralizing can be seen in two ways: positive impact, and negative impact. Wavedashing and L-Cancelling are overcentralizing in Melee: you either learn how to do these, or don't even bother coming to tourneys. Still, when seen from everyone's point of view, these tactics bring a whole new level of depth to the game, and spread out even more the varying skill levels between players, making it an even better game than it was originally. I see nothing wrong with banning this "overcentralizing" tactic, and I think you would agree as well, because it has brought with it countless positive impacts into the game... A negative-impacting overcentralizing element could be seen as an incredibly powerful character (the game's variety dies as soon as everyone has to play it or work really really really really hard to win [or lose], as was the case with Ivan Ooze, Akuma SF2, and other banned "broken" characters), an infinite on the whole cast with lots of range and room for error, a maneuver that ends up teleporting a character outside of the game's boundaries, etc... You get the idea. Stuff that hinders the game, rather that helps develop it.

If there's no viable ban criteria present, then these "overcentralizing" elements should be dealt with through trial and error, putting the tactics to the test and seeing if it's worth it leaving them running rampant for players to abuse, or if it's better off removing them from tournament play.


At least, that's how I see it.

I definetely agree with this
Though i think their should be a category for neither.
After watching scrooging (its extremely gay by the way) I see it as not really developing the game but at the same time i dont see it a hinderance to game play ether. I almost see it like the EDC. its hard to enforce.

 

[Kewkky]

Scrooging would fit into one of those (or possibly a neutral one, who knows?)... If it would be overcentralizing. Right now, scrooging is just a big a deal as planking was when it was first introduced to the metagame (way back when, when Plank vs DaPuffster happened [or maybe before?])... So, maybe just like what we've done with planking, we could allow scrooging to stay for a bit longer just to see if people pick up and use it more, or if it really has to be limited.

 

[cutter]

Right now, scrooging is just a big a deal as planking was when it was first introduced to the metagame (way back when, when Plank vs DaPuffster happened [or maybe before?])...

Plank aircamped in that match the vast majority of the time, and then grabbed the ledge for like the last 20 seconds.

It goes back way to Axis when Plank began planking against SK92.