Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

I beat larry 3-1 first set. 4th game he was winning by %, but I did EXACTLY what chu did to larry, and grab him, and throw him off the level, then he air dodged cuz he got scared, then i stage spiked him. That only worked cuz I guessed right. It's a lot more luck-involved than any gimps done in like, Melee for example. Grand finals went to 10th game out of a possible 10. I won 3-1 in WF, then lost 2-3 first set, then won 3-2 second set. It was very fun. (I agreed to battlefield because I think MK can **** falco there but I guess I was wrong? *shrug* better than smashville and FD anyway <_< )

That's gotta be embarassing for DEHF.

"I figured that my MK can beat his Falco on one of Falco's best stages and DEHF's most comfortable counterpicks, so I kept letting him take me there because I was confident in my ability even though we went to the last game of grand finals".

Balls of steel, mew2king.

 

[Overswarm]

for a whopping 12 damage.

People really make MK out to be too good. They over exaggerate his pros and completely ignore his weaknesses. it's like me when I talk about sheik except here its okay.

Florida is too good. If you are looking for the best whatever check Florida first.

I played ness early on in Brawl (a kill throw that reliable? WIN, amirite?!) and I've been playing Smash64's Ness since the getgo.

Early on I noticed that despite that I could do 30-60% combos with my Ness and reliably kill with a grab that wasn't impossible to get, the more I played someone the harder it became to do anything effective. As they learned the matchup, Ness became a reactionary character.

Smash64's Ness was much better than mine when I met him and I thought "Hey, maybe I'm wrong" after playing him, but after a few games I was able to do fine. Ness, vs. MK at the very least, is a reactionary character. If MK plays safe, Ness can't get in. If MK gets a grab on Ness, it's a possible kill at any %.

If a good MK loses to a Ness, that Ness is either a 10x better player or the MK just doesn't know the matchup as well as he needs to. Ness is a glass cannon. Characters like Ness and Fox really shine when other people don't know what they're doing.

 

[Berserker.]

MK as good as he is is beatable.

<3 is right. I know he has a 55:45 advantage against Snake, Wario, Diddy and Falco but it's only 55:45. It's only a slight advantage so it's very winnable. You just need to be patient.

 

[Overswarm]

<3 is right. I know he has a 55:45 advantage against Snake, Wario, Diddy and Falco but it's only 55:45. It's only a slight advantage so it's very winnable. You just need to be patient.

You lost me when you used arbitrary numbers that have no backing from tournament results. You lost me again when you said "be patient" and listed 4 of the most defensive characters in the game, as if people were going balls to the wall aggressive against MK in these matchups.

 

[Jem.]

So yeah Mew2King and Larry are pretty dang good in doubles. Sean and I lost to M2K and DEHF GF set 1 2-3.

And M2K is impossible to beat in the ditto is what I've concluded after the games we played.

 

[UltiMario]

The MK debate isn't even about MK being beatable or not at this point. Both side already KNOW MK is beatable, stop bringing this back up, its old.

 

[*Tyson*]

I played ness early on in Brawl (a kill throw that reliable? WIN, amirite?!) and I've been playing Smash64's Ness since the getgo.

Early on I noticed that despite that I could do 30-60% combos with my Ness and reliably kill with a grab that wasn't impossible to get, the more I played someone the harder it became to do anything effective. As they learned the matchup, Ness became a reactionary character.

Smash64's Ness was much better than mine when I met him and I thought "Hey, maybe I'm wrong" after playing him, but after a few games I was able to do fine. Ness, vs. MK at the very least, is a reactionary character. If MK plays safe, Ness can't get in. If MK gets a grab on Ness, it's a possible kill at any %.

If a good MK loses to a Ness, that Ness is either a 10x better player or the MK just doesn't know the matchup as well as he needs to. Ness is a glass cannon. Characters like Ness and Fox really shine when other people don't know what they're doing.

Well Overswarm, WOW.

You could not have nailed it any more than you did. It's all about the match up, and once he starts to learn it your as good as done.

 

[BladeWise]

i let him pick battlefield cuz mk beats falco there. It's better than FD, poke stad, or smashville

edit - m2k

 

[etecoon]

MK pisses on ness, I don't agree with the comparison to fox as I think fox is actually legit outside of his MU's where he gets stupidly gayed over, but ness is just ok vs MK in the air, he has basically no ground game vs MK and his recovery is awful, he's also very dependent on MK screwing up to kill

and yeah chibo hosted an MK banned tournament and a completely random ice climbers won, that's basically what I see as brawls future without MK, everyone but snake gets LOL'd by ice climbers but they still can't win because of snake <_< results will be far more diverse, and yet the game will somehow get gayer.

 

[DMG]

What I thought was funny was that people were using that tournament as evidence that MK needs to be legal, because he prevents "random IC players" from winning rofl.

 

[etecoon]

yeah, that shouldn't happen because snake still beats them solidly, I don't think IC's dominate without MK...but the less hard counters they have around the less fun the game becomes as far as I'm concerned >_>

 

[DMG]

Fun is debatable, and subjective though. I don't think the argument that MK isn't fun to see playing/is fun to see playing applies, since people are gonna inherently view things differently when it comes to fun.

For example, I would have just as much fun playing as Wario against IC's than my MK against IC's. People may think that the Wario one would be gayer/more boring, but I would find it more interesting and complex.

 

[etecoon]

Fun is debatable, and subjective though

everything about this debate is subjective. is meta knight OVER centralizing or is he simply the best character and has the popularity that comes with that? everyone has their own opinion on that, and likewise, even if we don't take it seriously, people have said "MK ditto's are so boring I'm tired of seeing them all the time". I think this is something wrong with both sides in that they consider their stance as completely factual when it's very much only our opinions.

 

[Master Raven]

Shaky's been stepping it up lately and beat Seibrik, Nick Riddle and GDX at that tournament, but that doesn't mean Ness go anywhere near even with MK. I just think Seibrik needs to relearn the MU now that Shaky's been getting way better recently.

 

[DMG]

No, I agree both sides are opinions. However, I don't think the particular opinion concerning fun is valid for either side. Regardless of this characters attributes, people were gonna find him boring/exciting regardless. Their opinions might change based on how good he is/how much he is played, but those opinions won't change how good he is or shed light on whether he should be banned or not I guess.

AKA you shouldn't use their "likeability" meter/stat as evidence that a character is ban/non ban worthy because 1. It changes from player to player based on their idea of boring/fun, and 2. Because regardless of whether a character is clearly, decidedly fun/not fun, that shouldn't be used as an indicator of whether to ban the character or not.

 

[etecoon]

No, I agree both sides are opinions. However, I don't think the particular opinion concerning fun is valid for either side.

well for the record I don't really belong to either side, I come in and make pro or anti ban arguments basically depending on my mood and my entire existence in this topic(and most of these boards...) could probably be considered trolling. when I say "the game will get gayer without MK IMO because only snake can stop ice climbers from tying you up and taking a dump on your chest", I'm not really trying to dissuade anyone from banning MK. it wouldn't work anyway, people have mostly made up their minds long ago I think, which is a lot of why I don't take this seriously and post **** that could be favorable or unfavorable to both sides.

and I think ultimately brawl is ****ed either way, it's a slow game that isn't fun for most people to watch when people play to win. maybe MK's dominance does hurt it even more but I feel like banning him can only slow the bleeding marginally, not stop it.

but the data does show that the game is losing players, even if it doesn't help that much, there's really no reason NOT to ban him if it could potentially slow or reverse that trend. lol

 

[*Tyson*]

Shaky's been stepping it up lately and beat Seibrik, Nick Riddle and GDX at that tournament, but that doesn't mean Ness go anywhere near even with MK. I just think Seibrik needs to relearn the MU now that Shaky's been getting way better recently.

This.

Not trying to take anything away from what Shaky did, he is mad legit and i give him all the props in the world.

Seibrik went D3 as well against him correct? and Nick is a ZSS. and GDX is a Diddy? Regardless all of them are good players and he did a phenomenal job, however what he did in no way suggests Ness can take MK.

Shaky too good, stepping it up though.

 

[swordgard]

yeah, that shouldn't happen because snake still beats them solidly, I don't think IC's dominate without MK...but the less hard counters they have around the less fun the game becomes as far as I'm concerned >_>

Snake-Ics matchup
50:50

 

[clowsui]

m2k...mk beats falco solidly on frigate orpheon even on a conservative stage list. brinstar, rc were ALSO options you could've picked. delfino too. sounds like you weren't playing to win rofl

 

[etecoon]

maybe at the very highest level, which would make the matchup factually even, but my main point that snake would still effectively prevent bad ice climber players from dominating still holds true

edit: ninja'd, this is at swordgard

 

[Allied]

Metaknight is sooo broken

 

[BSP]

The only way "fun" could have any stance in this discussion would be to talk about its impact on tournament attendence, and even then it's not very accurate. People could be leaving for other reasons besides MK, and fun may not even be a part of it.

 

[Muro]

cant we ban falco instead? hes so much more annoying

 

[UltiMario]

But.... but.... ICs are most annoying!

 

[OverLade]

I assure you Ness does not go anywhere close to even with MK. How many MK's actually know the matchup? Heck hardly anyone period does. If the MK knows the match up i guarantee you it almost no contest for the MK.

Come to Texas, we will show you.

Seibrik is bad at gimping as MK and he went mostly D3 anyway. And people are acting all shocked, FoW beat Tyrant a while back. I haven't played Shaky yet but if you don't know the matchup it must be pretty difficult.

 

[DMG]

1. Grab Ness

2. GET HIM

3. ???????

4. Make airplane noises when you Shuttle Loop

5. Good Game

 

[OverLade]

^^^^

1. Wait for ness to double jump.
2. Stay under him
3. Fastfall Uair
4. If he doesnt airdodge the uair will hit him and go back to #2
5. If he airdodges jump dair
6. Ness is off stage
7. Proceed to take stock

 

[etecoon]

4. Make airplane noises when you Shuttle Loop

holy **** I'm doing this from now on

...

and what halberd said. you can't use random, isolated upsets to say "see, the matchup is really close!" when it's clear that one person knew the MU really well and the other didn't at all. that'd be like if I said sonic beats MK because overswarm and inui have lost to them

 

[OverLade]

holy **** I'm doing this from now on

...

and what halberd said. you can't use random, isolated upsets to say "see, the matchup is really close!" when it's clear that one person knew the MU really well and the other didn't at all. that'd be like if I said sonic beats MK because overswarm and inui have lost to them

Seibrik is used to playing Shaky, it's not a matter of him not knowing Ness, it's a matter of him not knowing how to completely use MK to dominate. MK usually relys on outsmarting his opponent completely, which in brawl isn't as effective as playing gay and knowing preset setups.

 

[swordgard]

maybe at the very highest level, which would make the matchup factually even, but my main point that snake would still effectively prevent bad ice climber players from dominating still holds true

edit: ninja'd, this is at swordgard

Il agree that this might be the case, its interesting to see however how matchups change depending on the player level. IIRC shoryuken even has different matchup charts and numbers depending on the player level. Might be worth looking into

 

[Chuee]

Most every time a top Ness beats a top MK, it's MU inexperience. The MU is nowhere near even. The only thing Ness has in the MU is Fair outranging MKs. Other than that MK has a GR CG that leads to Ness offstage, which then could lead to a gimp. Dair ***** Ness offstage. MK juggles Ness easily as long as he doesn't rush in and get Daired. MK can also space almost anything on Ness' sheild and it's safe.
Lets go back to all that FOW hype a long time ago. Remember how FOW beat Tyrant? Yeah, well a few weeks later at evo Tyrant beat FOW.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^

1. Wait for ness to double jump.
2. Stay under him
3. Fastfall Uair
4. If he doesnt airdodge the uair will hit him and go back to #2
5. If he airdodges jump dair
6. Ness is off stage
7. Proceed to take stock

you forgot the part where you make fun of his mother after taking said stock

 

[Orion*]

You lost me again when you said "be patient" and listed 4 of the most defensive characters in the game, as if people were going balls to the wall aggressive against MK in these matchups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l...0341E480&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19

we should all camp like that, mk would get ***** :3

 

[etecoon]

MK is the hardest character to approach in the game, moving the metagame in a more campy direction does not make him a worse character. and barwl has been out two years, it's not like people don't know the power of strong defense by now

 

[fkacyan]

MK is the hardest character to approach in the game, moving the metagame in a more campy direction does not make him a worse character. and barwl has been out two years, it's not like people don't know the power of strong defense by now

And yet most matches don't go to time, so this clearly isn't the case.

MK is a character with zero projectiles. In the campiest possible metagame he'd have to be able to flawlessly close ground against projectiles to win.

 

[OverLade]

Il agree that this might be the case, its interesting to see however how matchups change depending on the player level. IIRC shoryuken even has different matchup charts and numbers depending on the player level. Might be worth looking into

This is true, I agree completely.

At the absolute highest level characters like Pikachu/Diddy/Snake/Falco seem to have close to even matchups against MK, but at any level short of that it seems to be always in MKs favor.

Brawl seems to have a saturation point with reaction speed. Once both players can powershield on reaction/always punish perfectly/DI perfectly it seems to become more balanced, but when people have trouble fighting against things like random tornados and mis-DI shuttle loops it makes MK look more "gay". Mastery of basics is what helps in fighting MK at the highest level, but not many players are able to perform at this level.

And yet most matches don't go to time, so this clearly isn't the case.

MK is a character with zero projectiles. In the campiest possible metagame he'd have to be able to flawlessly close ground against projectiles to win.

And that's where MK is one of the fastests running characters with the best OOS options. Powershielding = GGs. Falco is the only character with a projectile lagless enough for him to hit MKs shield and have a frame advantage to act. Nobody else can beat MK only by camping if he knows the matchup.

 

[ADHD]

Look, at this point I don't even care what happens to him. It's evident mk is going to get some sort of limitation, I just don't want the situation to be flip-floppy. I would really rather not attend one metaknight-legal tournament one week, then the next week attend one metaknight-banned tournament. If you are going to limit him, please let it be entirely throughout every region.. If not, then leave him legal everywhere. TOs just please listen to what they say, if the sbr makes a decision to ban him, eventually he will be back once people realize how silly this all is. If you don't abide by what they say and leave him legal, you will have multiple conflictions throughout the smash community and it will take more time to get mk back into the metagame.

Because he will come back, it's just bound to happen.

 

[fkacyan]

And that's where MK is one of the fastests running characters with the best OOS options. Powershielding = GGs. Falco is the only character with a projectile lagless enough for him to hit MKs shield and have a frame advantage to act. Nobody else can beat MK only by camping if he knows the matchup.

Diddy and Snake both have projectiles that continue to have active hitboxes after the attack is over, so those characters can camp MK to a certain degree. Also, the terrain of a stage can be a huge influence on how effective camping is.

 

[Orion*]

And that's where MK is one of the fastests running characters with the best OOS options. Powershielding = GGs. Falco is the only character with a projectile lagless enough for him to hit MKs shield and have a frame advantage to act.

that's true, however you are talking about at point blank range. any character with a ranged attack or projectile can run away and Space before they use it, any character other than falco not doing that is playing wrong. this is where people are failing.

Nobody else can beat MK only by camping if he knows the matchup.

LOL. diddy for one? if there is one statement i definitely disagree with its that

 

[ADHD]

Yeah, metaknight flat out has no approaches that aren't risky.