Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

Diddy and Snake both have projectiles that continue to have active hitboxes after the attack is over, so those characters can camp MK to a certain degree. Also, the terrain of a stage can be a huge influence on how effective camping is.

snake's grenades also don't literally control space, if snake drops a grenade and rolls away or throws a nade at MK, MK is still free to run right at him. grenades don't initially have hitboxes, they have HURTboxes, don't hit them and don't be on them after 3.5 seconds and you're good

that's true, however you are talking about at point blank range. any character with a ranged attack or projectile can run away and Space before they use it, any character other than falco not doing that is playing wrong. this is where people are failing.

yeah, just because a projectile can be powershielded doesn't mean it will be punished if spaced right...but how many times can you run away? eventually you run out of stage to run on and you must fight, again falco does unusually well here because MK has to get close enough while putting pressure on that phantasm becomes harder to punish, allowing him to escape

 

[OverLade]

XD Its early in the morning I forgot about Diddy.

Orion you're right, I was just referring to when he said "making the metagame campier" would only help Falco/Diddy and probably snake, though Snake vs MK is more about making MK approach then "just camping".

edit: I agree with you I just worded it badly...

 

[etecoon]

also if MK has a stock lead he doesn't really have to approach anyone, ever. this is circumstantial and requires him to beat you through one stock to begin with, but is a pretty significant advantage in camping

 

[OverLade]

also if MK has a stock lead he doesn't really have to approach anyone, ever. this is circumstantial and requires him to beat you through one stock to begin with, but is a pretty significant advantage in camping

But this is true for a lot of characters. The only thing is that MK has an easier time approaching, where some other characters may have to approach more slowly or partially camp while trying to catch up.

 

[Orion*]

yeah, just because a projectile can be powershielded doesn't mean it will be punished if spaced right...but how many times can you run away? eventually you run out of stage to run on and you must fight, again falco does unusually well here because MK has to get close enough while putting pressure on that phantasm becomes harder to punish, allowing him to escape

thats character specific. as many defensive options as this game gives us that really shouldnt be the issue -.-.

@haldberd, its no problem LOL. i only got a couple of hours of sleep myself so im kinda tired to XD

 

[etecoon]

But this is true for a lot of characters.

definitely, you always have a situational advantage if you have the clock on your side. but I'd consider it a bigger advantage for meta knight because as I said, I feel like he has the easiest time shutting down approaches...normally it's just forcing that approach when everyone knows to camp MK that is a problem.

 

[Omni]

definitely, you always have a situational advantage if you have the clock on your side. but I'd consider it a bigger advantage for meta knight because as I said, I feel like he has the easiest time shutting down approaches...normally it's just forcing that approach when everyone knows to camp MK that is a problem.

that's if MK gets the % lead

if he doesn't, he is forced to approach characters like Diddy, Snake, Falco, IC's, etc. despite the fact that it may put him at a disadvantage.

so its a trade off

 

[etecoon]

well, I actually said stock lead, I think assuming a ledge grab limit, a lot of characters can camp their way back from a % lead, but only a few characters even have ANY ability to KO you while camping, and those should still be avoidable

 

[Omni]

diddy can kill you while camping. that's probably why he's one of MK's more tougher opponents

 

[fkacyan]

diddy can kill you while camping. that's probably why he's one of MK's more tougher opponents

I'd say it's more the fact that Diddy can switch to an aggressive playstyle fluidly out of his camping if a banana lands, which is more difficult for other characters (Not that stuff can't happen out of Blizzard, lazers, etc, but those aren't always safe wheras bananalocking pretty much always is).

 

[Omni]

yea, that.

i mean, one trip or banana hit = free smash. mk's gotta stick to the skies!

 

[Overswarm]

Well Overswarm, WOW.

You could not have nailed it any more than you did. It's all about the match up, and once he starts to learn it your as good as done.

I don't bluff. People just don't know it. :\

holy **** I'm doing this from now on

...

and what halberd said. you can't use random, isolated upsets to say "see, the matchup is really close!" when it's clear that one person knew the MU really well and the other didn't at all. that'd be like if I said sonic beats MK because overswarm and inui have lost to them

My actual experience just shows that Shugo is really good more than anything. :[

shugoooooooooooo

 

[etecoon]

that's a better excuse than drunken mountain climbing I suppose

 

[OverLade]

If everyone would switch to Falco/Diddy/Snake/ICs/Marth/Wario/ZSS we could stop complaining about MK.

But if MK is banned, then that character range expands to include Luigi/Lucario/DK/Peach/Sonic/GaW/Pikachu/ROB/Kirby.

If people would have a melee mentality and accept that MK ***** most of the cast and while he still beats other good characters they have a much more legit chance, then I would say there's no reason to support a ban (unless results STILL looked like Pound4). But as long as people want to play other "decent" characters that only really suck because of MK, then people will complain, and part of the community will support a ban. I'm not calling either side scrubs, I'm saying that people play this game for different reasons.

You say "well if you don't like MK, and wont pick up a better character, then quit"...well ****, there goes half the community, half of tournament attendance, and Brawl as a competitive game dies.

That's why we have to work to please the majority. Because otherwise the community dies either way...

 

[etecoon]

marth doesn't do well vs MK at all IMO

and I thought some people think pika is near even? I haven't played good pika's or anything but I haven't heard pika thrown out as a "bad character that is good with MK gone"

 

[Overswarm]

yea, that.

i mean, one trip or banana hit = free smash. mk's gotta stick to the skies!

That's actually not the case. You can see early research in the MK vs. Diddy thread, I'm saving most of it until I'm finished though.

But long story short, "stick to the skies" is the phrase you hear from MKs that don't know what the hell they're talking about. From everything I've seen at all levels of play, diddy is a reactionary character and only has winning scenarios when MK is hovering in the air like an idiot. On the other hand, literally 90% of his kills are from glide toss to d-smash, meaning if he has two bananas you can land near the ledge (banana hit to insta ledge grab, no d-smash) or if he has one the center of the stage (requires an extra 30-40% to get a KO, if not more depending on the stage).

It's no different than when people used to think Snake's f-tilt was a guarantee on MK.

that's a better excuse than drunken mountain climbing I suppose

How is "my opponent was good" an excuse? =P

and I thought some people think pika is near even? I haven't played good pika's or anything but I haven't heard pika thrown out as a "bad character that is good with MK gone"

I posted something in hear earlier showing w hat characters seemed to be more viable without MK and what characters were "borderline" viable; these are the characters that have shown multiple players doing something of import with them.

Pikachu has really only shown a decent showing from Anther, and really no one else. We'd need to see more Pikachu's doing something but, to quote Anther

Pikachu just has a ton of situational gimps. Very, very situational gimps.

Which means it takes a lot of time invested in Pika to learn those gimps.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You would think more people would flock to Diddy, as an attempt to "counter" MK. Maybe we would see some interesting developments if that happened.

Instead, people switch to or pick up MK. They're picking up a character that is easier to play, with better matchups, less vulnerable to counterpick stages, and is also quite superior in doubles. Right, Cyanide and Orion?

There is little or no incentive to switch to or pick up Diddy Kong, instead of MK.

 

[etecoon]

How is "my opponent was good" an excuse? =P

you're also supposed to be good, but since you started maining MK you have the whole "I don't practice ever" thing going >_>

But long story short, "stick to the skies" is the phrase you hear from MKs that don't know what the hell they're talking about. From everything I've seen at all levels of play, diddy is a reactionary character and only has winning scenarios when MK is hovering in the air like an idiot. On the other hand, literally 90% of his kills are from glide toss to d-smash, meaning if he has two bananas you can land near the ledge (banana hit to insta ledge grab, no d-smash) or if he has one the center of the stage (requires an extra 30-40% to get a KO, if not more depending on the stage).

diddy can't glide toss > smash if you don't land parallel to him, if you're not on FD I don't see why air camping with a stock lead should be ineffective against him unless you mess up

but I'd also agree that it's not necessarily all you should do

 

[fkacyan]

You would think more people would flock to Diddy, as an attempt to "counter" MK. Maybe we would see some interesting developments if that happened.

Instead, people switch to or pick up MK. They're picking up a character that is easier to play, with better matchups, less vulnerable to counterpick stages, and is also quite superior in doubles. Right, Cyanide and Orion?

There is little or no incentive to switch to or pick up Diddy Kong, instead of MK.

When did I switch to MK for the MK matchup? I play ZSS for MK. I only play MK against a select set of people who can doubleblind me with ZSS counters easily, or Falcos, or in MMs where the character is specifically requested.

If I had time to invest in playing and was actually good, I'd be a Diddy main. I actually tried maining Diddy to hilarious effect before any of the mainstream Diddy players did.

 

[Omni]

disagree.

when Diddy has his setup going: banana in hand, banana in front, peanuts galore approaching from the ground is the dumbest thing u can do. if you're going to be on the ground in that situation, Metaknight needs never be in his shield and always pacing outside of a certain range that allows him to react to thrown bananas.

if diddy approaches from his setup, MK has options, but he has to commit. he can't stay in his shield too long or he'll get grabbed. from glide toss you can actually punish with up+b since there are frames during the glide toss where he can be punished, however, if the diddy spaces right MK will more than likely get punished for up+b'ing. rolling is always a horrible idea. spacing and timing full hop d-airs seems to be a good way to approach and react to banana tosses since it allows him to catch it and put out a retreating hitbox

i've found it's sometimes best to just wait for a banana to stale or reach the point of staling before u attempt the approach. better to deal with one naner than two

 

[DMG]

Playing as Diddy is no fun. You have to put up with Wario lol.

 

[Overswarm]

You would think more people would flock to Diddy, as an attempt to "counter" MK. Maybe we would see some interesting developments if that happened.

Instead, people switch to or pick up MK. They're picking up a character that is easier to play, with better matchups, less vulnerable to counterpick stages, and is also quite superior in doubles. Right, Cyanide and Orion?

There is little or no incentive to switch to or pick up Diddy Kong, instead of MK.

Part of the issue is of Diddy being a secondary is near impossible, since he's so technically demanding in relation to MK. To add to this, if you pick MK you suddenly know every matchup in the game. Not only are all the low tiers fairly simple, but the high tiers you play all have tons of MU experience. You spend a month or two getting wrecked, but then you know the MU. With Diddy it's a learning experience rather than a refining experience.

Playing as Diddy is no fun. You have to put up with Wario lol.

Oh yeah, Diddy has counters.

Wario picking up his bike and just chucking it at an off-stage Diddy using over-b > Diddy's soul.

Nothing is more crushing than getting hit below the stage by the bike, getting hit again, panicking and hitting up+b only to get hit by the bike a third time and get knocked out of your barrels.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If everyone would switch to Falco/Diddy/Snake/ICs/Marth/Wario/ZSS we could stop complaining about MK.

But if MK is banned, then that character range expands to include Luigi/Lucario/DK/Peach/Sonic/GaW/Pikachu/ROB/Kirby.

If people would have a melee mentality and accept that MK ***** most of the cast and while he still beats other good characters they have a much more legit chance, then I would say there's no reason to support a ban (unless results STILL looked like Pound4). But as long as people want to play other "decent" characters that only really suck because of MK, then people will complain, and part of the community will support a ban. I'm not calling either side scrubs, I'm saying that people play this game for different reasons.

You say "well if you don't like MK, and wont pick up a better character, then quit"...well ****, there goes half the community, half of tournament attendance, and Brawl as a competitive game dies.

That's why we have to work to please the majority. Because otherwise the community dies either way...

The problem is... the community is divided enough that any final decision will cause the exact same problem.


Which is why it's so important to develop a community consensus on what is banworthy before proceeding.

 

[Overswarm]

The problem is... the community is divided enough that any final decision will cause the exact same problem.


Which is why it's so important to develop a community consensus on what is banworthy before proceeding.

I'm guessing you don't deal with people much?

If you set criteria in stone and say "here are my commandments", everyone crosses their fingers and hopes it works out for them. If it doesn't, they ignore it. No amount of logic changes their mind.

 

[OverLade]

So basically Pro ban should do what Omni's doing right now then...

aka talking to TO's of various regions instead of theorycrafting in this thread

 

[Omni]

Overswarm is already on it.

That's why CoT5, WHOBO, and probably another national are going to be MK-banned.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm guessing you don't deal with people much?

If you set criteria in stone and say "here are my commandments", everyone crosses their fingers and hopes it works out for them. If it doesn't, they ignore it. No amount of logic changes their mind.

Not if they feel that they are a part of the process of deciding it...

Which was what I was saying from the very start.




Face it, pressing this issue without widespread community support for a process that will reach a conclusion WILL split the community in two, and probably cause it to disintegrate.

 

[OverLade]

Overswarm is already on it.

That's why CoT4, WHOBO, and probably another national are going to be MK-banned.

Really? That's fascinating. Now we're getting somewhere. The kind of data we actually want to see...

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm is already on it.

That's why CoT5, WHOBO, and probably another national are going to be MK-banned.

More than that. 5/8 that I've talked to would like to..... but we all put community first.

I told them all not to and to wait for a BBR decision first. So we'll see.

 

[Orion*]

all of my wins this season are with falco that are notable minus atomsks ics wich i used mk for. reason why? my falcos better than my mk. yes mks easier to play, so i can beat worse players with him without having to try. thats about all he is to me now, minus teams and if someone wants to pick brinstar on me.

 

[Omni]

I doubt it.

You already know the BBR's stance on making another poll. If it doesn't happen soon enough for you, you'll simply move ahead with the plan most likely.

 

[adumbrodeus]

More than that. 5/8 that I've talked to would like to..... but we all put community first.

I told them all not to and to wait for a BBR decision first. So we'll see.

Any final solution without widespread community consensus about the process is not putting the community first.



Forcing this to a head without the proper process will most likely destroy the community, or at least leave it as a shell of it's former self.


Put the community first, develop consensus.

 

[Orion*]

Wario picking up his bike and just chucking it at an off-stage Diddy using over-b > Diddy's soul.
.

if the diddy is that stupid sure

edit: LOL COT4.

MONEY BACK *****ES

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

enough about ZSS... i looked at the results and i was like, aww riddle didnt get 1st this time and then i saw


1: HRNUT (Snake) (the split)
2: Shaky (Ness) (they split)
3: Seibrik (D3, MK)
4: R@vyn (Pit)
5: Nick Riddle (ZSS)
5: Prince Ramen (Pit, MK)
7: Hungrybox (D3)
7: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9: Co18 (Fox, D3)
9: Chaz (Marth, MK)
9: GDX (Diddy)
9: Radix (Diddy, Snake)

NESS? WAT?

Wait...hungrybox...HUNGRYBOX?!

What is this I don't even.

 

[Overswarm]

Any final solution without widespread community consensus about the process is not putting the community first.



Forcing this to a head without the proper process will most likely destroy the community, or at least leave it as a shell of it's former self.


Put the community first, develop consensus.

Why do you think I've been posting publicly? =P

Omni's the one behind the scenes getting TOs to say they won't ever ban MK, even if the BBR votes to ban him.

 

[OverLade]

Hungrybox has played brawl since the games release...why don't people know this? He just doesnt play outside of tourney. He always places top 10 so if you haven't seen him you probably just haven't been checking FL results...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Whatever happened to the temp-ban? Was that idea thrown out?

 

[ADHD]

No, metaknight can't come from the air and he can't come from the ground. His best bet however is from the ground, because his ground game is quite ridiculously good. He's fast, so creating openings based off of the player to player's reactions he can make swift ways in to getting damage. I love how people are suggesting ways to approach while he really doesn't have any at all. Runing shields are honestly your best bet, yet I see nobody suggest this which is lol.

 

[Omni]

Why do you think I've been posting publicly? =P

Omni's the one behind the scenes getting TOs to say they won't ever ban MK, when the BBR votes to not have him banned for the 100th time.

Fix'd.

And it's not behind the scenes. Do it a little searching and you might actually say something accurate for once.

 

[Omni]

No, metaknight can't come from the air and he can't come from the ground. His best bet however is from the ground, because his ground game is quite ridiculously good. He's fast, so creating openings based off of the player to player's reactions he can make swift ways in to getting damage. I love how people are suggesting ways to approach while he really doesn't have any at all. Runing shields are honestly your best bet, yet I see nobody suggest this which is lol.

Running shield always leads to me getting grabbed.