Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

MK is not a broken character by any means. The community seems to understand that. So... why ban him? I fail to see any real reason.

We've been over this. Being "broken" isn't the only reason to ban something.

If this is the case, please explain why we ban stages and items, and we'll go from there.

I'm not going to pretend or play house with the community. The community is already split. Regardless of what decision we make, people will be mad on both ends.

But a decision needs to be made so we can stop walking down the same road.

No one wants to linger in Metaknight limbo for the rest of the Brawl's lifespan.

In other words, you take a powder keg and light it because you're afraid of it going boom?

Good plan.

 

[iRJi]

Gah, this **** needs to stop...

Seriously. You want results? ****ing get hylian to do a final poll, A serious final poll. Which ever side it goes too will be it. Done, finished, nothing more. So tired of everyone's *****ing, it's getting ******** now.

 

[gallax]

In other words, you take a powder keg and light it because you're afraid of it going boom?

Good plan.

bomb squads do this all the time to make sure that there isnt a random explosion that will hurt people. sometimes they ignite in place(the bombs they find that is)

but at espy- yeah i am saying get better. thats what smash is all about isnt it? getting better as a player? i was always losing to ddds in tourney and getting wrecked and you know what happened? i practice and learned everything about that MU i could and now i go even with ddd's here in FL. minus co 18, he still wins. lol.

everyone has bad habits that need to be broken. to place in tourney you need to have very little bad habits so that you cant be read. if the mk cant read you and they randomly start dair camping/tornadoing/shuttle looping then you pretty much have just forced them into being habitual and you now have the adv against that player cuz now you can predict them WAY easier. tornado is easy to punish if you know how to shiled>spotdode(last hits of tornado) and even easier when they shuttle loop and are now gliding towards you. thats a free grab 90% of the time or a dash attack if they cancel it into the ground

 

[Meru.]

Gah, this **** needs to stop...

Seriously. You want results? ****ing get hylian to do a final poll, A serious final poll. Which ever side it goes too will be it. Done, finished, nothing more. So tired of everyone's *****ing, it's getting ******** now.

And then people will say, "lol this poll is bull****, everyone including their granny can vote anyway."

I'm not going to pretend or play house with the community. The community is already split. Regardless of what decision we make, people will be mad on both ends.

But a decision needs to be made so we can stop walking down the same road.

No one wants to linger in Metaknight limbo for the rest of the Brawl's lifespan.

And OMAR will stop that?

It only shows me you're not as confident about this as you were before. 'MK will never be banned', you have said. 'Nothing is going to happen.' Are you still so sure about this? OMAR looks like a defensive move to me.

I'm not very pro-ban (maybe a little bit), but this is just ridiculous.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm not going to pretend or play house with the community. The community is already split. Regardless of what decision we make, people will be mad on both ends.

But a decision needs to be made so we can stop walking down the same road.

No one wants to linger in Metaknight limbo for the rest of the Brawl's lifespan.

So why is the decision to keep Meta Knight?
It's just jumping back to square one.

At least with a ban, we'll be playing on a different game board.
[/badanalogy]

I still can't fathom why I care for this nonsense at all.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Final polls are stupid,


MK limbo is the smartest thing to do even if mk where to be banned because of this final poll it can't speak for the future.

MK could be proven broken at some point in time and you have no way of knowing. If he gets banned he could be proven unbanable at any point in time as well.

 

[etecoon]

Gah, this **** needs to stop...

Seriously. You want results? ****ing get hylian to do a final poll, A serious final poll. Which ever side it goes too will be it. Done, finished, nothing more. So tired of everyone's *****ing, it's getting ******** now.

the last poll was supposed to be and was titled as being the final poll. it doesn't work, nor does saying "this will be the last time we discuss this issue for a year". whoever loses will get butt hurt and both sides are too evenly matched for either one to really stop the other from starting this again, it just won't go away.

 

[Omni]

Gah, this **** needs to stop...

Seriously. You want results? ****ing get hylian to do a final poll, A serious final poll. Which ever side it goes too will be it. Done, finished, nothing more. So tired of everyone's *****ing, it's getting ******** now.

Serious final poll happened last poll. Remember?

*6 months later*

Okay, seriously, this time let's do the last final poll of all time.

And on, and on.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Your proof of this being?

I contacted TOs to see if a temporary ban would be possible, and not to force anyone else's hand. Every individual TO is allowed to make whatever rules they want for their tournament.

What a TO shouldn't do is what Omni is doing: using their tournaments as cudgels.

What Omni is doing is the equivalent of me saying "Any tournament that allows MK will be sent to the IRS for tax exemption if you haven't filled out the proper forms and tax the winnings" and threatening them into banning MK.

And you presume to think that you won't use the fact that those TOs are up for getting people to comply with your side?


Heck, you already have on this very thread. 5/8 nationals willing to ban MK, remember?


What Omni is doing is using it as ammunition for his side, exactly like what you're doing. The fact that his group is in an inherently better position (due to the fact that it's the status quo) does not make what you are trying to do effectively any different. It just means you have nicer PR from it inherently.

 

[Tien2500]

Serious final poll happened last poll. Remember?

*6 months later*

Okay, seriously, this time let's do the last final poll of all time.

And on, and on.

Why should there be a *final* poll? The only reason a poll should be definitive is if we decide that the metagame has stagnated and will not change anymore ever.

 

[theCook]

You know what this debate needs? A death match.

No holds barred, Overswarm Vs. ... Well, anyone in the BBR really.

Last one standing settles the matter once and for all.

 

[Omni]

And OMAR will stop that?

It only shows me you're not as confident about this as you were before. 'MK will never be banned', you have said. 'Nothing is going to happen.' Are you still so sure about this? OMAR looks like a defensive move to me.

I'm not very pro-ban (maybe a little bit), but this is just ridiculous.

I didn't say OMAR makes everyone happy.

OMAR reaches a conclusion; something that the community combined with the BBR has yet to do. It takes in everything that has been said about MK up to this point and makes its final decision. If OMAR is successful, the roster itself is a reflection of how the TO's of the community want to represent their region. I am sure the TO's are also looking at their specific community's best wishes.

So why is the decision to keep Meta Knight?
It's just jumping back to square one.

At least with a ban, we'll be playing on a different game board.
[/badanalogy]

I still can't fathom why I care for this nonsense at all.

Because it is the status quo and it was the decision that has been made on several occasions.

It's not jumping back to square one. It's drawing a conclusion.

I don't expect everyone to agree with what OMAR is trying to achieve. However, with the number of TO's that have requested or have accepted to join OMAR, I'm pretty sure I'm not completely off-basis.

 

[etecoon]

You know what this debate needs? A death match.

No holds barred, Overswarm Vs. ... Well, anyone in the BBR really.

Last one standing settles the matter once and for all.

unless it's DMG OS would just evade them until they die of thirst

if it were DMG the issue would truly never be resolved, the universe may implode from that much camp occupying the same room at one time

 

[adumbrodeus]

You know what this debate needs? A death match.

No holds barred, Overswarm Vs. ... Well, anyone in the BBR really.

Last one standing settles the matter once and for all.

That's a good idea... on second thought, let me in on this s***, round Robbin. If I win, we follow my plan.

unless it's DMG OS would just evade them until they die of thirst

if it were DMG the issue would truly never be resolved, the universe may implode from that much camp occupying the same room at one time

I camp aggressively, they'll make a mistake eventually.

 

[Espy Rose]

Kinda makes you wish people would really just act (ie: Probans not going to tournaments with MK, and vice versa).

Too bad we all suck and have conflicting issues with that concept.

Because it is the status quo and it was the decision that has been made on several occasions.

It's not jumping back to square one. It's drawing a conclusion.

I don't expect everyone to agree with what OMAR is trying to achieve. However, with the number of TO's that have requested or have accepted to join OMAR, I'm pretty sure I'm not completely off-basis.

Mmhmm, the first part makes sense, but what conclusion is reached, if I might ask?

And that last part of your post toward me just fills me with concern. TOs saying "no" to a MK ban won't solve this problem at all.
Saying no is what most TOs have been doing since Brawl came out, and look where we are now.

 

[Omni]

Too bad we all suck and have conflicting issues with that concept.

This is how evil, psycho, take-over-the-world dictators are born!

 

[Espy Rose]

So we're all rookie Hitlers?

Mmkay, I'll take that.

@ADHD below: ...huh?

 

[ADHD]

Espy plays sonic.

 

[Overswarm]

And you presume to think that you won't use the fact that those TOs are up for getting people to comply with your side?


Heck, you already have on this very thread. 5/8 nationals willing to ban MK, remember?

Wait a minute, you're blasting me for things I haven't done but could do?




There's no reason to have a final poll on anything. if MK was banned and then we saw character X take the exact same placements as MK for the same time period there would be literally no reason to want MK banned but no character X.

It'd never be that cut and dry, but the principle remains the same; new information leads to new decisions.

 

[Nanaki]

What Omni is doing is using it as ammunition for his side, exactly like what you're doing. The fact that his group is in an inherently better position (due to the fact that it's the status quo) does not make what you are trying to do effectively any different. It just means you have nicer PR from it inherently.

Nicer PR would be an understatement here.

Asking TO's to not act until the BBR has made a decision vs. asking TO's to make a permanent decision regardless of the outcome.

Seems like the equivalent of girl scouts selling cookies vs. a big dude with a knife stealing your money, kicking your ***, and leaving a box of cookies behind.

 

[Meru.]

God, let's just play Melee or Balanced Brawl (or any hacked version), hoping for a more balanced sequel to Brawl. That'll teach Sakurai!

 

[Espy Rose]

What are you talking about Yaaay?

Melee can be just as gay as Brawl can. People just don't bother to do it because they're too busy trying to combo like it's 2007.

 

[<π]

We've been over this. Being "broken" isn't the only reason to ban something.

If this is the case, please explain why we ban stages and items, and we'll go from there.

I'm some what of a purist so this is the wrong route to go with me. I'm pro items,but their not being on is something I can accept because I love and want to be a part of this community; I lost that battle I'll suck it up.

We banned items mostly because that's how it was in melee. Our logic back then was it was random and removed an element of skill by introducing luck as a factor, exploding capsules were gay. Hardly has anything to do with MK ban arguments.

I'm not really pro stages. Although note I think way more stages should be available for CPs

We ban stages for a few reasons. To avoid stalling (hyrule, new pork, etc.), and for "random" environmental effects. (cars on Port Town, etc.), and walk offs (lol, we banned these early because of just ONE character, ICs can still chain into death. And right now the community is banning MK over what?)

I think the main one you are aiming at is stalling? Sure lets say MK can infinitely stall and never be hit. Similar to how we banned his infinite invincibility wouldn't it be more logical to ban the technique(s) instead of the character?

Or the over centralization argument. I fail to see how that warrents a ban at all. You are going to see a majority of people playing the "best character in the game" If after this MK ban marth, for example, became the new character that bogged down mid/low tiers, would we ban him to make more characters "viable"?

If I've got anything wrong please, just explain it to me instead of trying to make me guess.

 

[Orion*]

In other words, you take a powder keg and light it because you're afraid of it going boom?

Good plan.

i think overswarm is a troll. hes been only trying to get mk banned to troll us all !

 

[Meru.]

What are you talking about Yaaay?

Melee can be just as gay as Brawl can. People just don't bother to do it because they're too busy trying to combo like it's 2007.

Noooooo way as gay as Brawl. No way no way no way. I seriously don't believe that no gay stuff happened in 7+ years of Melee. I have seen gay Melee, but that's really not as gay as Brawl. Every fighting game has gay stuff, but Brawl has surprised everyone.

But let's not start a Brawl vs. any fighting game, shall we?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait a minute, you're blasting me for things I haven't done but could do?

Are gonna do.


You don't think it's obvious? Why else would you be attempting to convince TOs to say that they're willing to ban MK.


Heck, I remember Pierce making a thread that referenced to what is most likely your data.




And if you weren't gonna use that, you'd be a fool, plain and simple. You want your side to win, and getting together relevant supporters help that cause.



So yes, you guys are doing the same thing effectively, and you've both brought it to the point that whoever wins is resulting in a community split.



If you want a resolution that bad, go for it, but I want a process that, one that there can be a consensus around so it won't tear the community apart. But who listens to me anyway?


*sigh*



Have fun with your 5 players, I'll be over here playing melee.

Nicer PR would be an understatement here.

Asking TO's to not act until the BBR has made a decision vs. asking TO's to make a permanent decision regardless of the outcome.

Seems like the equivalent of girl scouts selling cookies vs. a big dude with a knife stealing your money, kicking your ***, and leaving a box of cookies behind.

The thing is, he's asking TOs to come out in support of an MK ban but not act until there's word from the BBR, while at the same time using that to force the BBR into banning him.


Omni is doing basically the same thing except anti-ban, his wording could've been better, but that doesn't change the practical reality that they're both attempting to force their side and bring resolution that way.

 

[Gnes]

Noooooo way as gay as Brawl. No way no way no way. I seriously don't believe that no gay stuff happened in 7+ years of Melee. I have seen gay Melee, but that's really not as gay as Brawl. Every fighting game has gay stuff, but Brawl has surprised everyone.

But let's not start a Brawl vs. any fighting game, shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw


Ehh...they seem kind of similar to me...but whatever....that isnt the debate at hand

*continues lurking

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

We've been over this. Being "broken" isn't the only reason to ban something.

If this is the case, please explain why we ban stages and items, and we'll go from there.

why don't you explain this reason?

Afaik we only ban things because they are broken or reduce competitiveness by increasing randomness. Examples of this are levels that are completely dependent on randomness (wario ware is banned right?) or techniques that break the game/freeze characters/make it impossible to hit your opponent (infinite cape glitch, ICs infinites for stalling purposes, ect).

Can you please tell me why we should ban a character if he resides perfectly well within the game? You can fight him, you can kill him, you can beat him. So what if he is the best character or has no "bad matchups"? So what if he dominates the scene? The best character tends to do those things no matter what game you play.

 

[Nanaki]

The thing is, he's asking TOs to come out in support of an MK ban but not act until there's word from the BBR, while at the same time using that to force the BBR into banning him.


Omni is doing basically the same thing except anti-ban, his wording could've been better, but that doesn't change the practical reality that they're both attempting to force their side and bring resolution that way.

...and? I didn't say they weren't both doing something that strikes me as a bit out of line. Seems like if you're gonna do it, though, you may as well do it nicely. I'm gonna stick with my girl scout/robber analogy here.

Edit:

Can you please tell me why we should ban a character if he resides perfectly well within the game? You can fight him, you can kill him, you can beat him. So what if he is the best character or has no "bad matchups"? So what if he dominates the scene? The best character tends to do those things no matter what game you play.

I sense another round of Akuma talk coming on...

 

[adumbrodeus]

...and? I didn't say they weren't both doing something that strikes me as a bit out of line. Seems like if you're gonna do it, though, you may as well do it nicely. I'm gonna stick with my girl scout/robber analogy here.

It's more like a regular robber vs. a girl scout holding you up and leaving cookies.



Same effect, different PR.

So we're all rookie Hitlers?

Mmkay, I'll take that.?

Nah, only the people who are taking advantage of it.


rookieStalinpoints++;

 

[Omni]

It's more like a regular robber vs. a girl scout holding you up and leaving cookies.

That's right! Take the cookies and move slowly back into the house!

 

[fkacyan]

I'm not sure you understand this basic point, OS, so allow me to attempt to tattoo it into your skull.

The issue with debating the MK ban is that there is no agreed-upon criteria for what constitutes a bannable character and thus whether or not to ban MK is a matter of one's own opinion.

Honestly, comparable debates right now include what temperature produces more delicious bacon and whether or not STP is the optimal condition for playing a fighting game.

Sup guys, I'm the actual fact of the matter here, trying to bring the actual discussion back down to earth.

Until pro-ban can actually state what constitutes a ban, as opposed to flashing graphs in our faces, etc, there's absolutely no grounds for a ban because anybody can create their own criteria and go from there.

 

[Turbo Ether]

There's a great chance this community will collapse beneath the weight of this issue.

If the community chooses to ban MK, I hope you adamant anti-banners decide to boycot or quit.

If the community decides that MK should remain, I hope you adamant pro-banners also decide to boycot or quit.

Me? I'm gonna go play TvC.

 

[etecoon]

Until pro-ban can actually state what constitutes a ban, as opposed to flashing graphs in our faces, etc, there's absolutely no grounds for a ban because anybody can create their own criteria and go from there.

retroactively establishing ban criteria like that can't work because everyone knows their position by now and their criteria will reflect that. pro-ban will say that MK already has passed that barrier, anti-ban will say that he hasn't even approached it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I sense another round of Akuma talk coming on...

You brought it up.

Why was akuma banned? From what i read the community was fine with her until evo banned it for one of their tournaments.

The argument "akuma was banned for being too good so we can ban mk for being too good" doesnt hold weight with me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

retroactively establishing ban criteria like that can't work because everyone knows their position by now and their criteria will reflect that. pro-ban will say that MK already has passed that barrier, anti-ban will say that he hasn't even approached it.

Unless you base it on data that we don't already know.

That's right! Take the cookies and move slowly back into the house!

Lol omni, lol.

Sup guys, I'm the actual fact of the matter here, trying to bring the actual discussion back down to earth.

Until pro-ban can actually state what constitutes a ban, as opposed to flashing graphs in our faces, etc, there's absolutely no grounds for a ban because anybody can create their own criteria and go from there.

Can we listen to the man, please?

 

[<π]

FL will continue to play brawl regardless of what happens with this debate so I don't really care much. I think the game will be fine either way honestly. I just do see any reason to ban MK

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can't we all just agree that Omni is right and everybody else is wrong?

 

[Espy Rose]

rookieStalinpoints++;

Stalin? Sounds a bit like Stalling.

Meta Knight's REALLY good at stalling.
Does Meta Knight sound like Stalin?

...!

Meta Knight's a dictator.
...sounds about right.

There's a great chance this community will collapse beneath the weight of this issue.

If the community chooses to ban MK, I hope you adamant anti-banners decide to boycot or quit.

If the community decides that MK should remain, I hope you adamant pro-banners also decide to boycot or quit.

Me? I'm gonna go play TvC.

The problem is that neither side is adamant enough to act outside of this thread as a whole. Too many conflicting interests involved with this issue.

 

[fkacyan]

retroactively establishing ban criteria like that can't work because everyone knows their position by now and their criteria will reflect that. pro-ban will say that MK already has passed that barrier, anti-ban will say that he hasn't even approached it.

How is it retroactive? Nothing's been banned yet.

All it would serve to do is actually give the debate a platform, as opposed to "WELL IMO HE'S BROKEN" shouting contests.

@Ether: I already don't play, I just run events from time to time.