Official Metaknight Discussion

[Turbo Ether]

Stalin? Sounds a bit like Stalling.

Meta Knight's REALLY good at stalling.
Does Meta Knight sound like Stalin?

...!

Meta Knight's a dictator.
...sounds about right.



The problem is that neither side is adamant enough to act outside of this thread as a whole. Too many conflicting interests involved with this issue.

People should smarten up. There's no reason for pro-ban to contribute cash to anti-ban tournament pots or vice-versa. Let the community burn.

 

[Tommy_G]

Originally Posted by Omni
enough about ZSS... i looked at the results and i was like, aww riddle didnt get 1st this time and then i saw


1: HRNUT (Snake) (they split)
1: Shaky (Ness) (they split)
3: Seibrik (D3, MK)
4: R@vyn (Pit)
5: Nick Riddle (ZSS)
5: Prince Ramen (Pit, MK)
7: Hungrybox (D3)
7: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9: Co18 (Fox, D3)
9: Chaz (Marth, MK)
9: GDX (Diddy)
9: Radix (Diddy, Snake)

NESS? WAT?

......look at all of those MKs.....

 

[TechnoDreamer]

How is it retroactive? Nothing's been banned yet.

All it would serve to do is actually give the debate a platform, as opposed to "WELL IMO HE'S BROKEN" shouting contests.

@Ether: I already don't play, I just run events from time to time.

It's retroactive because you can choose ban criteria that would result in a ban or ban criteria that would not. So establishing criteria based on facts already known achieves nothing since you could engineer the criteria to achieve your aims.

Absurd example:
Any character with Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop should be banned

vs.

A character should only be banned if it wins 100% of matches

We can establish the truth of either criteria conclusively before even creating them.

 

[Overswarm]

Are gonna do.


You don't think it's obvious? Why else would you be attempting to convince TOs to say that they're willing to ban MK.

Who said anything about "convince"? I simply asked them "Would you ban MK at your events if the BBR made a statement that on X date, an MK ban would be recommended by the BBR".

If that's convincing, I need to buy a new dictionary.

And if you weren't gonna use that, you'd be a fool, plain and simple. You want your side to win, and getting together relevant supporters help that cause.

I want Brawl to win. People have quit because of MK in droves. Regions that used to be powerhouses now have no one playing. Metaknight is the defacto #1 character and there is no logical reason to choose anyone else, and no one wants to play tons of MK dittos. All of the previous anti-ban reasons to not ban Metaknight have since evaporated. People instituted a rule limiting play on the ledge, one of the most commonly used parts of the stage, solely because of Metaknight and he found a way around it. We've banned multiple stages solely because of MK and people are talking about banning Rainbow Cruise now. We've banned techniques because of MK. Nearly every good team has an MK on it. MK is the only character that consistently shows up more than once in the top 8 of events. MK is the most commonly switched to character. MK is more than twice the amount of points than Snake than anyone else in the chart, and Snake beats out Diddy by a significant margin, and Diddy beats out Marth by a smaller, but still significant margin. The amount of viable characters nearly doubles with MK out of the scene. Data has shown that characters other than MK consistently lose to soft and hard counters in high level tournament play while "even" matches for those characters can go either way. Top MKs have ignored this and only lost to players, not characters. MK breaks the counterpick system, and that is Smash Bro.'s very foundation. MK is easy enough to use to where this isn't a Fox pipe dream where people say "if you were a robot you could do X Y and Z"; people that don't main MK pick him up and use him as a secondary to attempt to even the odds. The round 3 MK CP has become more and more common in close tournament sets. MK has timed more people out than even Wario, no matter what rules have been put in place, much to the community's chagrin. Low level players hate MK. Mid level players hate MK. Top level players hate MK. Pro level players hate MK. Every prediction pro-ban has ever made has come to pass, while all of anti-ban's predictions have shown to be folly.

So you see me have the majority of the community pick up and say "I hate MK" and "I want MK banned", and I merely ask for information to see if what I'm doing is right for Brawl in the community view and I push for a BBR decision and you say I'm trying to get "my side" to win?

I'm pushing for Brawl to win. I've set it up to where I gain nothing but enjoyment if MK is banned. I've mained MK for quite some time now, and haven't used another character even as a secondary, save for my ROB last year in an MK banned tournament. My doubles partner mains MK and we're easily the most successful team in our region. I don't practice or go to smashfests, I just walk into a tournament and win money.

Should MK be banned, I get nothing other than the satisfaction of playing a better game. The list I showed above was the tip of the iceberg, adumbrodeus. These aren't things I'm making up, they're consistent complaints from all levels of play, and because of them and much much more, I've been the voice pushing for a BBR decision. We voted before and things have only gotten worse and will continue to grow worse. Attendance has dropped, and virtually everyone here can attribute Metaknight to a decent portion of that. Anti-ban says it's because Brawl is a bad game, but I don't believe that. I enjoy Brawl.... but not with Metaknight in it.

So if you think I'm pushing for "my side", you're about as ignorant a fool as can exist. You think I've been researching into MK all this time trying to prove he's too good? I've been trying to prove he has weaknesses. Counters. Things we can use against him. I've rallied to let stages like Pirate Ship, Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, Onett, and other stages into the game because while they can be considered "borderline" they're also Metaknight's worst stages. I've looked into every potential counter, even Yoshi, and have found nothing but dust.

Do you think even for a second that if during my research I found Snake was winning a large chunk of his matches I would hesitate for a second to pick up Snake? I picked up Falco when people told me DEHF was a big MK counter, and I did the same with Diddy when Ninjalink did. I've logged countless hours looking at frame data and watching videos, learning new characters and practicing against whoever was there, trying to find something... and in the end Metaknight has always been the best choice.

I want Brawl to win, adumbrodeus. Everything I've done has been to push for a BBR vote to keep the community whole, our numbers high, and regions strong. Omni's decision is a selfish one meant to divide the community and to force anyone who is pro-ban to break off from the community, even with a BBR decision, which gives us only the choice to "give up" or "break away".

I've kept all my TOs private for obvious reasons; they have the right to change their mind and aren't bound by anything they've told me. I've kept them from hosting banned MK events because I'd rather it be a unified movement backed by the BBR rather than a rag-tag division of the USA.

If you still think I'm pushing for a "side", ask yourself this:

What the hell have I been waiting for?

Mr. anti-ban finds out that pro-ban is winning in the public and BBR and pushes as hard as he can against having a vote occuring, and then finishes it all off by saying he has a list of TOs to use as a cudgel.

If I'm going to use the TOs I know to host a bunch of MK banned tournaments all at once, why would I wait? Why wouldn't I have done it immediately? What good can the BBR do me?

I've waited for a BBR vote. Omni is pre-emptively defying it and telling TOs to ignore any decision they make. There is a huge difference.

Besides, if anti-ban was really the majority rule, what reason does Omni have? It doesn't stop a debate at all. If anything, it prevents the odds of a vote occuring. Why wouldn't he want a vote to occur if he was the winning side?

Can you please tell me why we should ban a character if he resides perfectly well within the game? You can fight him, you can kill him, you can beat him. So what if he is the best character or has no "bad matchups"? So what if he dominates the scene? The best character tends to do those things no matter what game you play.

I posted several pages on this; I'll try to find them later and link to them, you can look for "more posts by Overswarm" if you'd like to hunt for them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And... how does retroactive criteria solve the current split?

 

[Nanaki]

You brought it up.

Why was akuma banned? From what i read the community was fine with her until evo banned it for one of their tournaments.

The argument "akuma was banned for being too good so we can ban mk for being too good" doesnt hold weight with me.

I'm not going to argue it with you. The line of thinking you're presenting naturally leads to that argument, and has already several times in this thread.

Akuma is a 'him', not a 'her', btw.

 

[fkacyan]

It's retroactive because you can choose ban criteria that would result in a ban or ban criteria that would not. So establishing criteria based on facts already known achieves nothing since you could engineer the criteria to achieve your aims.

Absurd example:
Any character with Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop should be banned

vs.

A character should only be banned if it wins 100% of matches

We can establish the truth of either criteria conclusively before even creating them.

No. Nonono. You're missing something here: What you said is what is being done right now.

I'm saying universal criteria that can apply to any character in any Smash game has to be formed to solve this and any future issues. If said criteria cannot be established, then... Well, all we're doing by not banning or banning is satisfying some party's aims.

The idea behind the criteria is that it would be like a ruler. You don't yell at a ruler for being biased when it tells you John went farther than Jim in the long jump, because everybody went in agreeing that would be the basis for determining who went farther.

 

[iRJi]

Who said anything about "convince"? I simply asked them "Would you ban MK at your events if the BBR made a statement that on X date, an MK ban would be recommended by the BBR".

If that's convincing, I need to buy a new dictionary.



I want Brawl to win. People have quit because of MK in droves. Regions that used to be powerhouses now have no one playing. Metaknight is the defacto #1 character and there is no logical reason to choose anyone else, and no one wants to play tons of MK dittos. All of the previous anti-ban reasons to not ban Metaknight have since evaporated. People instituted a rule limiting play on the ledge, one of the most commonly used parts of the stage, solely because of Metaknight and he found a way around it. We've banned multiple stages solely because of MK and people are talking about banning Rainbow Cruise now. We've banned techniques because of MK. Nearly every good team has an MK on it. MK is the only character that consistently shows up more than once in the top 8 of events. MK is the most commonly switched to character. MK is more than twice the amount of points than Snake than anyone else in the chart, and Snake beats out Diddy by a significant margin, and Diddy beats out Marth by a smaller, but still significant margin. The amount of viable characters nearly doubles with MK out of the scene. Data has shown that characters other than MK consistently lose to soft and hard counters in high level tournament play while "even" matches for those characters can go either way. Top MKs have ignored this and only lost to players, not characters. MK breaks the counterpick system, and that is Smash Bro.'s very foundation. MK is easy enough to use to where this isn't a Fox pipe dream where people say "if you were a robot you could do X Y and Z"; people that don't main MK pick him up and use him as a secondary to attempt to even the odds. The round 3 MK CP has become more and more common in close tournament sets. MK has timed more people out than even Wario, no matter what rules have been put in place, much to the community's chagrin. Low level players hate MK. Mid level players hate MK. Top level players hate MK. Pro level players hate MK. Every prediction pro-ban has ever made has come to pass, while all of anti-ban's predictions have shown to be folly.

So you see me have the majority of the community pick up and say "I hate MK" and "I want MK banned", and I merely ask for information to see if what I'm doing is right for Brawl in the community view and I push for a BBR decision and you say I'm trying to get "my side" to win?

I'm pushing for Brawl to win. I've set it up to where I gain nothing but enjoyment if MK is banned. I've mained MK for quite some time now, and haven't used another character even as a secondary, save for my ROB last year in an MK banned tournament. My doubles partner mains MK and we're easily the most successful team in our region. I don't practice or go to smashfests, I just walk into a tournament and win money.

Should MK be banned, I get nothing other than the satisfaction of playing a better game. The list I showed above was the tip of the iceberg, adumbrodeus. These aren't things I'm making up, they're consistent complaints from all levels of play, and because of them and much much more, I've been the voice pushing for a BBR decision. We voted before and things have only gotten worse and will continue to grow worse. Attendance has dropped, and virtually everyone here can attribute Metaknight to a decent portion of that. Anti-ban says it's because Brawl is a bad game, but I don't believe that. I enjoy Brawl.... but not with Metaknight in it.

So if you think I'm pushing for "my side", you're about as ignorant a fool as can exist. You think I've been researching into MK all this time trying to prove he's too good? I've been trying to prove he has weaknesses. Counters. Things we can use against him. I've rallied to let stages like Pirate Ship, Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, Onett, and other stages into the game because while they can be considered "borderline" they're also Metaknight's worst stages. I've looked into every potential counter, even Yoshi, and have found nothing but dust.

Do you think even for a second that if during my research I found Snake was winning a large chunk of his matches I would hesitate for a second to pick up Snake? I picked up Falco when people told me DEHF was a big MK counter, and I did the same with Diddy when Ninjalink did. I've logged countless hours looking at frame data and watching videos, learning new characters and practicing against whoever was there, trying to find something... and in the end Metaknight has always been the best choice.

I want Brawl to win, adumbrodeus. Everything I've done has been to push for a BBR vote to keep the community whole, our numbers high, and regions strong. Omni's decision is a selfish one meant to divide the community and to force anyone who is pro-ban to break off from the community, even with a BBR decision, which gives us only the choice to "give up" or "break away".

I've kept all my TOs private for obvious reasons; they have the right to change their mind and aren't bound by anything they've told me. I've kept them from hosting banned MK events because I'd rather it be a unified movement backed by the BBR rather than a rag-tag division of the USA.

If you still think I'm pushing for a "side", ask yourself this:

What the hell have I been waiting for?

Mr. anti-ban finds out that pro-ban is winning in the public and BBR and pushes as hard as he can against having a vote occuring, and then finishes it all off by saying he has a list of TOs to use as a cudgel.

If I'm going to use the TOs I know to host a bunch of MK banned tournaments all at once, why would I wait? Why wouldn't I have done it immediately? What good can the BBR do me?

I've waited for a BBR vote. Omni is pre-emptively defying it and telling TOs to ignore any decision they make. There is a huge difference.

Besides, if anti-ban was really the majority rule, what reason does Omni have? It doesn't stop a debate at all. If anything, it prevents the odds of a vote occuring. Why wouldn't he want a vote to occur if he was the winning side?



I posted several pages on this; I'll try to find them later and link to them, you can look for "more posts by Overswarm" if you'd like to hunt for them.

This... Good post.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

why don't you explain this reason?

Afaik we only ban things because they are broken or reduce competitiveness by increasing randomness. Examples of this are levels that are completely dependent on randomness (wario ware is banned right?) or techniques that break the game/freeze characters/make it impossible to hit your opponent (infinite cape glitch, ICs infinites for stalling purposes, ect).

Can you please tell me why we should ban a character if he resides perfectly well within the game? You can fight him, you can kill him, you can beat him. So what if he is the best character or has no "bad matchups"? So what if he dominates the scene? The best character tends to do those things no matter what game you play.

Fox in Melee.

 

[Omni]

Do you think even for a second that if during my research I found Snake was winning a large chunk of his matches I would hesitate for a second to pick up Snake? I picked up Falco when people told me DEHF was a big MK counter, and I did the same with Diddy when Ninjalink did. I've logged countless hours looking at frame data and watching videos, learning new characters and practicing against whoever was there, trying to find something... and in the end Metaknight has always been the best choice.

Newsflash: You don't have what it takes. Play a new game, use MK, or Q-Q more.

Besides, if anti-ban was really the majority rule, what reason does Omni have? It doesn't stop a debate at all. If anything, it prevents the odds of a vote occuring. Why wouldn't he want a vote to occur if he was the winning side?

That's the point. The debate never ends. The poll happens Metaknight is not banned. Rinse and repeat forever. A vote has already occurred several times.

I'm not trying to "win" the next poll. Pretty positive pro-ban getting 2/3'rds majority ain't happenin'.

I'm trying to finish. End. Conclude. Be done. Move on.

That's why I'm doing what I do.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Sup guys, I'm the actual fact of the matter here, trying to bring the actual discussion back down to earth.

Until pro-ban can actually state what constitutes a ban, as opposed to flashing graphs in our faces, etc, there's absolutely no grounds for a ban because anybody can create their own criteria and go from there.

Don't even bother posting the main problem w/ this discussion cause no one listens to it.

 

[Overswarm]

Newsflash: You don't have what it takes. Play a new game, use MK, or Q-Q more.

I think I've shown I do have what it takes. I won enough money from ROB alone to buy a $2,000 computer and then quit my job and lived off MK for 8 months. If I don't have what it takes, there's maybe a handful on the planet that do.


Also, glad to know that you ARE willing to read long posts, Omni. I waited until the end to write your name to see if you'd quote it and respond. Guess you weren't just "lazy" when I made you back out of all the other discussions

That's the point. The debate never ends. The poll happens Metaknight is not banned. Rinse and repeat forever. A vote has already occurred several times.

It's still a problem, genius. Problems don't just go away because you say so. You think people of this number would still want MK banned if we saw tons of Diddy mains and secondaries flooding the tournament scene and taking out MK? Of course not! It wouldn't make any sense. We'd just pick up Diddy.

We didn't ban Port Town Aero Dive in the last ruleset, should we just never update the ruleset no matter what information we get?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm trying to finish. End. Conclude. Be done. Move on.

That's why I'm doing what I do.

Well, if anything, I commend you for even trying something to end this nonsense.

However, I really don't think you're going to accomplish anything. No offense.
If we were able to convince people either way about Meta Knight, we'd have done so by now.

People will still complain about it, and just ending it like this isn't going to solve anything.

But, we won't know for sure until we try, so I guess let'r rip.

This applies to whatever OS is up to as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Who said anything about "convince"? I simply asked them "Would you ban MK at your events if the BBR made a statement that on X date, an MK ban would be recommended by the BBR".

If that's convincing, I need to buy a new dictionary.

And you don't think that a list of those names doesn't amount to a list of pro-ban TOs, how?

I want Brawl to win.

And you think banning MK is what will make Brawl win, therefore you're playing to win on the issue.

So you see me have the majority of the community pick up and say "I hate MK" and "I want MK banned", and I merely ask for information to see if what I'm doing is right for Brawl in the community view and I push for a BBR decision and you say I'm trying to get "my side" to win?

And you don't think that gathering a list of pro-ban TOs isn't gonna be evidence for your cause?


And if you're saying it's random, sampling bias.

I'm pushing for Brawl to win. I've set it up to where I gain nothing but enjoyment if MK is banned. I've mained MK for quite some time now, and haven't used another character even as a secondary, save for my ROB last year in an MK banned tournament. My doubles partner mains MK and we're easily the most successful team in our region. I don't practice or go to smashfests, I just walk into a tournament and win money.

Should MK be banned, I get nothing other than the satisfaction of playing a better game. The list I showed above was the tip of the iceberg, adumbrodeus. These aren't things I'm making up, they're consistent complaints from all levels of play, and because of them and much much more, I've been the voice pushing for a BBR decision. We voted before and things have only gotten worse and will continue to grow worse. Attendance has dropped, and virtually everyone here can attribute Metaknight to a decent portion of that. Anti-ban says it's because Brawl is a bad game, but I don't believe that. I enjoy Brawl.... but not with Metaknight in it.

See above, you're playing to win about the issue, not for your own victories in the future.

So if you think I'm pushing for "my side", you're about as ignorant a fool as can exist. You think I've been researching into MK all this time trying to prove he's too good? I've been trying to prove he has weaknesses. Counters. Things we can use against him. I've rallied to let stages like Pirate Ship, Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, Onett, and other stages into the game because while they can be considered "borderline" they're also Metaknight's worst stages. I've looked into every potential counter, even Yoshi, and have found nothing but dust.

Do you think even for a second that if during my research I found Snake was winning a large chunk of his matches I would hesitate for a second to pick up Snake? I picked up Falco when people told me DEHF was a big MK counter, and I did the same with Diddy when Ninjalink did. I've logged countless hours looking at frame data and watching videos, learning new characters and practicing against whoever was there, trying to find something... and in the end Metaknight has always been the best choice.

Perhaps you would change your mind if you found something, but the point is, as of right now you believe that pro-ban is the best option, and you are using every tactic in the book to make pro-ban win.

It's pretty easy to see that when analyzed from a tactical standpoint.

I want Brawl to win, adumbrodeus. Everything I've done has been to push for a BBR vote to keep the community whole, our numbers high, and regions strong. Omni's decision is a selfish one meant to divide the community and to force anyone who is pro-ban to break off from the community, even with a BBR decision, which gives us only the choice to "give up" or "break away".

And you don't think that's what you're forcing? Omni's list is a tactic to get the BBR to agree with him and solve the issue once and for all by showing that there'd be too much community dissatisfaction to ban meta.


You've got a keen tactical mind, you can't tell me that you don't realize that this is exactly the same effect as your data is having.

You may not have even admitted it to yourself, but that's the reality, the net effect of what you and Omni are doing is dividing the community into clear pro-ban and anti-ban camps.

What the hell have I been waiting for?

The same thing Omni is waiting for, the BBR to finalize it's decision.


You just did it in a manner with better PR.

Mr. anti-ban finds out that pro-ban is winning in the public and BBR and pushes as hard as he can against having a vote occuring, and then finishes it all off by saying he has a list of TOs to use as a cudgel.

If I'm going to use the TOs I know to host a bunch of MK banned tournaments all at once, why would I wait? Why wouldn't I have done it immediately? What good can the BBR do me?

I've waited for a BBR vote. Omni is pre-emptively defying it and telling TOs to ignore any decision they make. There is a huge difference.

In appearance, not effect, as I said before, you effectively segrigated the community into camps. You may have been nicer about the methodology, but both of you are effectively using this to pressure the BBR to support you views in a manner that will put this to rest forever.


Even if you don't realize that's the effect, which I doubt.

 

[Omni]

Reading has never been the problem. It's RESPONDING to novels that become the biggest pain. Hence why one-up'ing leads to further one-up'ing. I'm too lazy to consistently do that.

I also don't see you coming up with a better solution, OS.

What are you going to do if Metaknight is not banned? Wait for WHOBO/Pound 4 like results, use "new" data, and make more graphs for me to look at? Ain't happenin'.

 

[Spelt]

you know what would be a good way to end this?


A TEMP BAN


if it doesn't really help anything, then retract it.
if it does work then make it permanent.
>________>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I posted several pages on this; I'll try to find them later and link to them, you can look for "more posts by Overswarm" if you'd like to hunt for them.

Yes please do. I would really really like to see this.

 

[Overswarm]

Reading has never been the problem. It's RESPONDING to novels that become the biggest pain. Hence why one-up'ing leads to further one-up'ing. I'm too lazy to consistently do that.

I also don't see you coming up with a better solution, OS.

What are you going to do if Metaknight is not banned? Wait for WHOBO/Pound 4 like results, use "new" data, and make more graphs for me to look at? Ain't happenin'.

you know what would be a good way to end this?


A TEMP BAN


if it doesn't really help anything, then retract it.
if it does work then make it permanent.
>________>

BAM.

Isn't it weird that the vote pro-ban has been pushing for has been a 6 month period to collect data that we can compare to the 2 year stint of MK? It's almost like that'd show us two metagames, one with and one without MK, and we'd be able to make a fully formed decision without guessing.

Yes please do. I would really really like to see this.

If I don't give them to you by today, PM me and remind me; I'm going to be collecting all my major posts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

BAM.

Isn't it weird that the vote pro-ban has been pushing for has been a 6 month period to collect data that we can compare to the 2 year stint of MK? It's almost like that'd show us two metagames, one with and one without MK, and we'd be able to make a fully formed decision without guessing.

Or you could try to become actually good at this game. Because 90% of the Brawl community is not.

 

[Turbo Ether]

A situation in which a large portion of your community will be displeased regardless of the outcome. This will end well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What will a 6 month temp ban do? There isn't even a legitimate cause for it as far as anyone has proven.

The only thing it will do is give pro-ban a precedence to work from. "We banned him for 6 mo. and it was pretty cool, huh? so we should do it permanent right?"

If he isn't ban worthy, he isn't ban worthy. If he is ban worthy, he is.

 

[Spelt]

and don't give me that "but if we do that we'll never be able to get rid of the ban" because we'd still need a 2/3 vote to permanently ban him, and if you're so confident that he'll never be banned then you should have no problem with it.
if we do get the 2/3 needed to ban him then obviously having him banned and getting the data we need to stop theory crafting worked and more people saw him as ban worthy.

 

[fkacyan]

A situation in which a large portion of your community will be displeased regardless of the outcome. This will end well.

I kinda wish that the BBR worked like Blizzard; people could complain all they wanted but they'd only have the one option at the end of the day, that one being whatever the BBR said was going down.

Oh, dictatorships. You make things so simple.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Or you could try to become actually good at this game. Because 90% of the Brawl community is not.

Do not post here anymore. That's pure scrub talk and don't even get me started on why.

 

[Spelt]

Or you could try to become actually good at this game. Because 90% of the Brawl community is not.

if i worked with your logic, theoretically 90% of the meta knights suck too, which means if i suck at this game i still have a fair chance at beating them.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

What will a 6 month temp ban do? There isn't even a legitimate cause for it as far as anyone has proven.

The only thing it will do is give pro-ban a precedence to work from. "We banned him for 6 mo. and it was pretty cool, huh? so we should do it permanent right?"

If he isn't ban worthy, he isn't ban worthy. If he is ban worthy, he is.

Hopefully no one believes this information has any truth in it.

 

[Overswarm]

What will a 6 month temp ban do? There isn't even a legitimate cause for it as far as anyone has proven.

The only thing it will do is give pro-ban a precedence to work from. "We banned him for 6 mo. and it was pretty cool, huh? so we should do it permanent right?"

If he isn't ban worthy, he isn't ban worthy. If he is ban worthy, he is.

Let's boil this down to the nitty gritty:

A lot of people don't like the game with MK.

We can only hypothesize what the game would be like without MK.

With a 6 month temporary ban, we'd be able to compare the two metagames and make a decision off of which we'd rather see.

 

[Overswarm]

Or you could try to become actually good at this game. Because 90% of the Brawl community is not.

I'm better than most of the people in this thread, Gheb. I've made a living wage off of two separate characters without using a secondary. Get at me.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I kinda wish that the BBR worked like Blizzard; people could complain all they wanted but they'd only have the one option at the end of the day, that one being whatever the BBR said was going down.

Oh, dictatorships. You make things so simple.

C'mon, you know that there isn't just one option.

1. Live with changes
2. Speak with your wallet

 

[demonictoonlink]

We all suck though >__<

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm better than most of the people in this thread, Gheb. I've made a living wage off of two separate characters without using a secondary. Get at me.

Exception to the rule.

Look at the last ban-poll and read the names of the pro-banners. How many of these guys win tourneys?
Look at the anti-ban section and read names like ADHD, Meep, Lain, Candy, Fatal, Bizkit, Gnes, MikeHaze. See the difference? These guys are good at this game.

Edit: And these are the guys who actually go to tourneys and win money without relying on MK. It's possible if you're good. But the cast majority of Brawl players is not good at all.

 

[<π]

Who said anything about "convince"? I simply asked them "Would you ban MK at your events if the BBR made a statement that on X date, an MK ban would be recommended by the BBR".

If that's convincing, I need to buy a new dictionary.



I want Brawl to win. People have quit because of MK in droves. Regions that used to be powerhouses now have no one playing. Metaknight is the defacto #1 character and there is no logical reason to choose anyone else, and no one wants to play tons of MK dittos. All of the previous anti-ban reasons to not ban Metaknight have since evaporated. People instituted a rule limiting play on the ledge, one of the most commonly used parts of the stage, solely because of Metaknight and he found a way around it. We've banned multiple stages solely because of MK and people are talking about banning Rainbow Cruise now. We've banned techniques because of MK. Nearly every good team has an MK on it. MK is the only character that consistently shows up more than once in the top 8 of events. MK is the most commonly switched to character. MK is more than twice the amount of points than Snake than anyone else in the chart, and Snake beats out Diddy by a significant margin, and Diddy beats out Marth by a smaller, but still significant margin. The amount of viable characters nearly doubles with MK out of the scene. Data has shown that characters other than MK consistently lose to soft and hard counters in high level tournament play while "even" matches for those characters can go either way. Top MKs have ignored this and only lost to players, not characters. MK breaks the counterpick system, and that is Smash Bro.'s very foundation. MK is easy enough to use to where this isn't a Fox pipe dream where people say "if you were a robot you could do X Y and Z"; people that don't main MK pick him up and use him as a secondary to attempt to even the odds. The round 3 MK CP has become more and more common in close tournament sets. MK has timed more people out than even Wario, no matter what rules have been put in place, much to the community's chagrin. Low level players hate MK. Mid level players hate MK. Top level players hate MK. Pro level players hate MK. Every prediction pro-ban has ever made has come to pass, while all of anti-ban's predictions have shown to be folly.

You speak like everyone wants MK banned here and if that was teh case there wouldn't be any where near as strong of a resistance as there is now. And it's not like the people arguing agianst you have no idea what we are talking about I attend tourneys at least monthly. and play with top level players all the time. I use solo sheik and do **** well, even against the all mighty meta knight. So to me banning meta isn't just a slap in the face to people who've put effort into maining him. (Because it actually takes skill to use MK in high level matches) but also people like me how ever few of them there are who put tons of effort into actually learning the match up instead of complaining about how they can't.

Essentailly that whole paragraph summed up to "Tons of people play meta knight, metaknight does well." If half the country plays probability says he should win at the very least half the tournaments. Just sheer odds there. it has very little do MK being an over powered character etc.
You can't CP MK, there are tons of characters that don't have bad stages. sheik for example does well on every stage I know this from experience. You can't CP my sheik.

Should we ban her now too? If my region was horrible maybe this wouldn't have weight, but I don't care where snake brings me, even rainbow I'll do well.

So you see me have the majority of the community pick up and say "I hate MK" and "I want MK banned", and I merely ask for information to see if what I'm doing is right for Brawl in the community view and I push for a BBR decision and you say I'm trying to get "my side" to win?

A majority of the smashboards community doesn't even attend tournaments. Yet alone understand high level play. How much weight should we give that part of the community?

I'm pushing for Brawl to win. I've set it up to where I gain nothing but enjoyment if MK is banned. I've mained MK for quite some time now, and haven't used another character even as a secondary, save for my ROB last year in an MK banned tournament. My doubles partner mains MK and we're easily the most successful team in our region. I don't practice or go to smashfests, I just walk into a tournament and win money.

That's your decision though. I'm not trying to be an ***. but if you put as much effort into your ro as you did the anti-ban movement maybe you'd be seeing progress on that front.

Should MK be banned, I get nothing other than the satisfaction of playing a better game. The list I showed above was the tip of the iceberg, adumbrodeus. These aren't things I'm making up, they're consistent complaints from all levels of play, and because of them and much much more, I've been the voice pushing for a BBR decision. We voted before and things have only gotten worse and will continue to grow worse. Attendance has dropped, and virtually everyone here can attribute Metaknight to a decent portion of that. Anti-ban says it's because Brawl is a bad game, but I don't believe that. I enjoy Brawl.... but not with Metaknight in it.

The game is fine as it is now. I would get nothing but satisfaction if MK stayed. Obviously statements like this are pure opinion and shouldn't have much weight in the discussion we should be deciding on what exactly constitutes a ban worthy character. That's why voting doesn't work and why trying to sway or push or whatever won't work people seek resolution and an indisputable reason or unanimous decision is the only way to achieve that. We obviously aren't going to reach the later.

So if you think I'm pushing for "my side", you're about as ignorant a fool as can exist. You think I've been researching into MK all this time trying to prove he's too good? I've been trying to prove he has weaknesses. Counters. Things we can use against him. I've rallied to let stages like Pirate Ship, Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, Onett, and other stages into the game because while they can be considered "borderline" they're also Metaknight's worst stages. I've looked into every potential counter, even Yoshi, and have found nothing but dust.

play more sir. My sheik has been successful down here in the MK match up as of late. Sure it took effort but I've got it now. there's diddy, snake, wario,falco, ZSS, d3. MK's moveset definitely has it's holes if you don't know that as an MK main you aren't playing good enough people, Sorry. You may not out right counter him with any characterbut that doesn't mean you can't beat him. Don't let that mislead you.

Do you think even for a second that if during my research I found Snake was winning a large chunk of his matches I would hesitate for a second to pick up Snake? I picked up Falco when people told me DEHF was a big MK counter, and I did the same with Diddy when Ninjalink did. I've logged countless hours looking at frame data and watching videos, learning new characters and practicing against whoever was there, trying to find something... and in the end Metaknight has always been the best choice.

Try sheik she can punish any whiff and a lot of well spaced on shield pokes too. needles wreck most approaches espeacially tornado. blah blah blah.... yeah sheik.

I want Brawl to win, adumbrodeus. Everything I've done has been to push for a BBR vote to keep the community whole, our numbers high, and regions strong. Omni's decision is a selfish one meant to divide the community and to force anyone who is pro-ban to break off from the community, even with a BBR decision, which gives us only the choice to "give up" or "break away".

The community is going to exist with or without the ban, so that's not an issue at all. The fact that most tournements don't have MK banned and people are still attending is proof of that.

The people who quit because of MK probably would have quit anyway. Most melee players I know quit before the game even came out.

I've kept all my TOs private for obvious reasons; they have the right to change their mind and aren't bound by anything they've told me. I've kept them from hosting banned MK events because I'd rather it be a unified movement backed by the BBR rather than a rag-tag division of the USA.

Because turn out would suffer drastically from a sudden MK ban. You win money at every tourney. how likely would you be willing to attend a tourney with a character you have no experince with? How likely do you think players who quit (I.E. have no understand of the current metagame) would be willing to travel an spend money for a tournament with their inexperienced mains?



@voting:
I said it ealier but voting doesn't work no matter which side wins the opposite will call BS(even if you it isn't you directly OS) people seek resolution and as long as a small handful is on the opposite side and as long as TOs are on that side it just won't happen that smoothly.

 

[fkacyan]

C'mon, you know that there isn't just one option.

1. Live with changes
2. Speak with your wallet

How many people do you know who quit WoW / Brawl over something in the community they didn't like and stayed away for anything real length of time?

Speaking with one's wallet is only effective if the person who you are taking money away from really feels it, which I'll be honest, I've only seen the pro-ban really get much of.

 

[humble]

I'm better than most of the people in this thread, Gheb. I've made a living wage off of two separate characters without using a secondary. Get at me.

I am not taking a position in this debate as of yet, but I would like to step in and say that the anti-ban people, as it were, need to stop making statements like 'Well stop crying and get good at the game then.' Its a strawman point, and a weak one at that. The validity of their topic is not proven or disproven because of how successful of a player they are. There is a correlation between experience in tournaments and knowledge of the game, but I would like to believe the majority of the posters know enough about the game at this point, that attacking their skill and knowledge of the game isn't a valid point. As Overswarm is eager to remind you, he is an excellent player with tons of experience, and there is no reason to believe that the arguments being made are invalid because of the people stating them. Respond to the posts, not the posters. That is all, sorry for taking you guys away from your heated debate at the moment.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I am not taking a position in this debate as of yet, but I would like to step in and say that the anti-ban people, as it were, need to stop making statements like 'Well stop crying and get good at the game then.' Its a strawman point, and a weak one at that.

It's also true.

 

[Turbo Ether]

How many people do you know who quit WoW / Brawl over something in the community they didn't like and stayed away for anything real length of time?

Speaking with one's wallet is only effective if the person who you are taking money away from really feels it, which I'll be honest, I've only seen the pro-ban really get much of.

I don't think this is a good bluff to call in this situation.

Also, does 30 months not playing WoW count as a real length of time? I only returned to play with irl friends. I would retire from the game in a second, otherwise.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Let's boil this down to the nitty gritty:

A lot of people don't like the game with MK.

We can only hypothesize what the game would be like without MK.

With a 6 month temporary ban, we'd be able to compare the two metagames and make a decision off of which we'd rather see.

so REALLLLLLY all you're saying is people would like the game better without metaknight, not that he is too good to be in it?

 

[Nanaki]

How many people do you know who quit WoW / Brawl over something in the community they didn't like and stayed away for anything real length of time?

Speaking with one's wallet is only effective if the person who you are taking money away from really feels it, which I'll be honest, I've only seen the pro-ban really get much of.

Plenty of people switched to the fotm/Meta Knight, though. Whenever a class got overpowered suddenly there were tons of rerolls (Paladins in general, but there have been others) to play the overpowered class. To keep the game from being centralized around said class, patches come out to fix them.

...you can't do that with MK.

So you're left with everyone playing him, limiting him by banning planking/scrooging etc, or banning him. Seems like we're kind of on the precipice of this now.

 

[Tien2500]

so REALLLLLLY all you're saying is people would like the game better without metaknight, not that he is too good to be in it?

Yes exactly. If MK makes the game unenjoyable enough that people want to stop playing it you no longer have a competitive scene.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I am not taking a position in this debate as of yet, but I would like to step in and say that the anti-ban people, as it were, need to stop making statements like 'Well stop crying and get good at the game then.' Its a strawman point, and a weak one at that. The validity of their topic is not proven or disproven because of how successful of a player they are. There is a correlation between experience in tournaments and knowledge of the game, but I would like to believe the majority of the posters know enough about the game at this point, that attacking their skill and knowledge of the game isn't a valid point. As Overswarm is eager to remind you, he is an excellent player with tons of experience, and there is no reason to believe that the arguments being made are invalid because of the people stating them. Respond to the posts, not the posters. That is all, sorry for taking you guys away from your heated debate at the moment.

Thank you.

It's also true.

I'll say it again, stop.

Seriously, believing you'd have to suck @ the game in order to want MK banned is crap.