Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

you heard it from him folks. There is no evidence.

That comment was direct at people from anti-ban that stated that unless we saw 8 MKs in the top 8 of a tournament, he obviously wasn't broken and therefore shouldn't be banned... which is ridiculous.

 

[Masmasher@]

While that comment is a little streched i think a criteria should be made before a piece of the game get removed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You were asking why we'd need a temp ban, so I told you:

A lot of people don't like MK.

I didn't say why; everyone can have their own reason ranging from "he overcentralizes the game to a point where it's play MK or lose"

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/slippery-slope/

or "MK has cut my region's participation in half" to "MK is blue" or "his voice scares me". I really don't care about any of it when answering this discussion.

i don't think any of these are even legitimate arguments.

We can only hypothesize what the game would be like without MK.

This means that no matter why people want MK gone, they can't say what they'll get next; they can only make educated guesses based off the data we have. So we can't say "this is waht we'll have without MK" and let people choose which they'd rather have, for whatever reason. People that are scared of blue or MK's voice might not be happy with Lucario's voice and blue fur. People that are afraid of overcentralization or regional participatoin may find a new character doing the same thing. Data that we have shows this is unlikely but we don't know.

When people say "But what if character X dominates, does that mean you ban him too?" they aren't hypothesizing about the metagame post-MK. They are criticizing your rationalization.

With a 6 month temporary ban, we'd be able to compare the two metagames and make a decision off of which we'd rather see.

Pretty self-explanitory. A 6-month ban would actually put the issue to rest unless the results were ridiculously borderline, which is incredibly unlikely.

How would it prove anything? I really don't understand how temp banning a character would show anything except that he can't win when hes banned.

What data are you actually looking to get from this?

I even mentioned in my post I was boiling it down to the vaguest, most over-encompassing statements just to show you why a temporary ban is a good solution. :\

Usually vague isn't very convincing my friend.

 

[Spelt]

It's a perfect example. I am so pro items you have no idea. but I suck it up because I'm not going to get a big turnout of highly skilled players if I host a tournement with items on. In a world with MK banned only tournements I'd be forced to suck it up or participate. if you feel like you'll get a strong enough following there is no reason not to host a tournement with your own rule set.

brawl would be sooooooooooooo broken with items. :|
ganon can true combo into warlock punch.

 

[Tien2500]

While that comment is a little streched i think a criteria should be made before a piece of the game get removed.

Its very hard to make an unbiased criteria when we already know what we're looking for. Pro ban will make criteria that includes MK and anti ban will make criteria that excludes mk.

 

[Overswarm]

While that comment is a little streched i think a criteria should be made before a piece of the game get removed.

Criteria cannot be made at this time to issue a ban. Pro-ban would make criteria that MK would fit, anti-ban would make criteria that he doesn't.

Last time we DID make criteria, MK surpassed all the arguments against banning MK. Now they're still anti-ban. People will just change what they think to keep MK around if they want to keep him around.



What we CAN do is say

"What do we want to see when MK is gone? What can we look for?"

and then record data on things like attendance, character usage, placements of old MK mains, number of people using secondaries with their mains, etc., etc., and compare it to the old metagame with MK.

We currently see MK populating a lot of the top spots, and then a lot of individuals maining other characters. Why are there more MKs, but rare doubling up of other characters? There's one marth, one snake, one diddy, but 5 MKs! This is alarmingly common, so why is it?

Data like that generally means that these characters are being used by good players and are making it to the top that way; there's no character consistency showing that the characters themselves are aiding their placement.... except with MK, leading us to believe that MK is a step beyond the rest of the cast.

If we ban MK and then see one Diddy, one Snake, one Marth, and 5 Ice Climbers, and it is occuring consistently over the ban period and shows a trend, we now know that nothing has changed . Alternatively, if we see top 8s with very few characters placing more than once, it means we have a crap ton of viable characters meaning everyone has a better game experience with a much deeper game.

A temp ban allows us to use MK as the bar and see if the game gets better, worse, or stays the same with him gone.

 

[Spelt]

nevermind. OS said it better. ^ read that.

 

[TP]

While that comment is a little streched i think a criteria should be made before a piece of the game get removed.

Lemme tell you something a much smarter person than I once said: In a game where we must ban items, stages, and strategies just to allow competition to exist, is it really that much of a stretch to think we may have to ban a character too?

We have never banned a character before, but that does not make characters some sacred thing that must be preserved. If Pictochat can get banned across the country, so can MK.

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/slippery-slope/



i don't think any of these are even legitimate arguments.



When people say "But what if character X dominates, does that mean you ban him too?" they aren't hypothesizing about the metagame post-MK. They are criticizing your rationalization.



How would it prove anything? I really don't understand how temp banning a character would show anything except that he can't win when hes banned.

What data are you actually looking to get from this?



Usually vague isn't very convincing my friend.

...I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. You weren't able to fathom why a temporary ban would be worthwhile, and so I explained to you in terms a child could understand and now you're picking things apart for me saying people could want MK banned because he's blue.

Here's a hint: I wasn't trying to be very precise with what I was saying.

To put this in perspective for you, if I said a bunch of apple farmers were going to try growing pears instead temporarily and collect data on how the market reacts, your response was "I don't understand".

I then tell you "We don't know how well pears will do on the market, so we're figuring out what to look for now. People can want pears instead of apples for any reason! Nutritional, shape, color, it doesn't matter how illogical it is. Regardless, we can't see what our farms will be like until we see how pears do, we can only make educated guesses"

and then you say "You're not convincing anyone, none of those are real reasons to change fruit".


I.e., you're missing the point because you can't see the forest from the trees.

You're trying to turn a post explaining something into an argument when it isn't an argument in the first place.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Lemme tell you something a much smarter person than I once said: In a game where we must ban items, stages, and strategies just to allow competition to exist, is it really that much of a stretch to think we may have to ban a character too?

We have never banned a character before, but that does not make characters some sacred thing that must be preserved. If Pictochat can get banned across the country, so can MK.

The old Emblem Lord quote. He was smart enough to quit the game and move on to SF4.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is the method to do it:

Use an objective guideline.
Show how metaknight falls into that guideline.

The only objective guideline is brokenness, and because MK isn't broken the pro-ban side dances around the issue.



Come up with an objective reasoning behind this ban, and then reopen the thread......

 

[Overswarm]

This is the method to do it:

Use an objective guideline.
Show how metaknight falls into that guideline.

The only objective guideline is brokenness, and because MK isn't broken the pro-ban side dances around the issue.



Come up with an objective reasoning behind this ban, and then reopen the thread......

We don't only ban things because they're broken.

e.g., everything else we've banned in Brawl.

A temporary ban sets MK's current data as a bar from which we can compare new data, thus setting objective and unmoveable guidelines.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But the thing that he's point out is that there really aren't any solid arguments to base this on period anyway, because our criteria, while usable, is too vague to take a firm stance on the issue.


Which is the number one reason why there is so much frustration.

Its very hard to make an unbiased criteria when we already know what we're looking for. Pro ban will make criteria that includes MK and anti ban will make criteria that excludes mk.

Make a criteria that involves data we don't already have, done.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And yet no one has addressed the problems with a temp ban that I posted 30 or so pages ago.

 

[Masmasher@]

Its very hard to make an unbiased criteria when we already know what we're looking for. Pro ban will make criteria that includes MK and anti ban will make criteria that excludes mk.

The very fact that you have to make criteria proves that in their heart of hearts pro ban is unsure of whether he is truly bannible.
Banning a character is removing a piece of the game and is a last resort. that is a absolute. people tend to forget that you should be basing criteria off of that and work your way up. It shouldnt be about inconclusive tournament results that lead to subjective thoughts.
As much as i dont want to sound like a broken record. Strlin has established very strong criteria. you should look back at it. I know people are gonna say stuff like "well we arent other fighting communities" but the fact is that your community is spitting down the middle into anti ban and pro ban. you dont ban a character based on majority.
You guys cant even get organized enough to decide base points for banning him. Pro ban assumes that throwing data around will get him gone and wonder why anti ban isnt showing the same.
You are removing a character from play. the fact that you are trying to change the game mean you have to put more effort in.

 

[Turbo Ether]

But the thing that he's point out is that there really aren't any solid arguments to base this on period anyway, because our criteria, while usable, is too vague to take a firm stance on the issue.


Which is the number one reason why there is so much frustration.




Make a criteria that involves data we don't already have, done.

What data would or could that be?

 

[Espy Rose]

@ Red-Ryu: Because everyone on anti-ban has this "Yes-or-no" mentality.

 

[Spelt]

And yet no one has addressed the problems with a temp ban that I posted 30 or so pages ago.

i've brought up temp bans a number of times too.
anti-ban just keeps dancing around it.

 

[Overswarm]

Sirlin has established very strong criteria.

Two things:

1) Last we talked to him, Sirlin was pro-ban.

2) Sirlin ignored his own advice and banned Akuma from SF:HD Remix


So I'm not sure why we would listen to his criteria...?

You guys cant even get organized enough to decide base points for banning him. Pro ban assumes that throwing data around will get him gone and wonder why anti ban isnt showing the same.
You are removing a character from play. the fact that you are trying to change the game mean you have to put more effort in.

Anti-ban did post criteria, so did pro-ban. It was all in the last debate. None of anti-ban's stands up to snuff anymore and they haven't made anything new.

 

[Spelt]

Has sirlin ever played brawl competitively?

 

[Tien2500]

Two things:

1) Last we talked to him, Sirlin was pro-ban.

2) Sirlin ignored his own advice and banned Akuma from SF:HD Remix


So I'm not sure why we would listen to his criteria...?




Anti-ban did post criteria, so did pro-ban. It was all in the last debate. None of anti-ban's stands up to snuff anymore and they haven't made anything new.

I'm rather surprised Sirlin would be pro ban. Do you have any more details on what he said?

 

[Judo777]

I sure wish i could cp a snake, olimar or ganon to RC without having to pray to God that they dont have a pocket MK......

 

[Tien2500]

I sure wish i could cp a snake, olimar or ganon to RC without having to pray to God that they dont have a pocket MK......

Why would you need to CP ganon to RC?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

...I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. You weren't able to fathom why a temporary ban would be worthwhile, and so I explained to you in terms a child could understand and now you're picking things apart for me saying people could want MK banned because he's blue.

Here's a hint: I wasn't trying to be very precise with what I was saying.

To put this in perspective for you, if I said a bunch of apple farmers were going to try growing pears instead temporarily and collect data on how the market reacts, your response was "I don't understand".

I then tell you "We don't know how well pears will do on the market, so we're figuring out what to look for now. People can want pears instead of apples for any reason! Nutritional, shape, color, it doesn't matter how illogical it is. Regardless, we can't see what our farms will be like until we see how pears do, we can only make educated guesses"

and then you say "You're not convincing anyone, none of those are real reasons to change fruit".


I.e., you're missing the point because you can't see the forest from the trees.

You're trying to turn a post explaining something into an argument when it isn't an argument in the first place.

Argument- a set of statements where some of the statements, called premises, are intended to support another, called the conclusion.

So either it was an argument or you're not saying anything relevant. K.

As for your fruit analogy, its really surprising that you would call everything i do a strawman and then strawman everything i say. I'm starting to understand why omni doesn't respond to your walls anymore....

The biggest difference between this discussion and that fruit analogy is that there is a selling market, where changing the fruit could gain monetary profit and numerically prove beneficial or harmful on multiple scales.

This discussion is about a video game and how we should play it. A temp ban reveals no further information; it will be exactly what it is, brawl without MK.

 

[Spelt]

Why would you need to CP ganon to RC?

I think someone playing ganon CPing meta knight is even lulzier.

 

[Overswarm]

The biggest difference between this discussion and that fruit analogy is that there is a selling market, where changing the fruit could gain monetary profit and numerically prove beneficial or harmful on multiple scales.

This discussion is about a video game and how we should play it. A temp ban reveals no further information; it will be exactly what it is, brawl without MK.

Replace "selling market" with "tournaments" and fruit with "MK not banned to MK banned" and monetary profit to "attendance/character viability/etc./etc."

 

[Turbo Ether]

Know what's funny?

Last spring, Ally won Apex, defeating M2K in grand finals. Ally screams into the livestream mic, "**** YOU Metaknight banners!". People started saying, "SEE! Snake DOES keep MK in check!". Fast forward to today, it would appear that Ally is favoring pro-ban, judging by his comments in this thread.

This year, ADHD wins Pound 4, defeating M2K in grand finals. People say, "SEE! Diddy DOES keep MK in check!". ADHD makes a thread basically telling pro-ban to go **** themselves.

As of now, ADHD and Diddy Kong are literally following the exact same path that Ally started on a year ago.

ADHD, it will be interesting to hear what you have to say, once top MKs have figured out the matchup, like they did with Snake.

Mind you, i'm NOT pro-ban, i'm just looking for a bit of entertainment.

 

[Judo777]

Why would you need to CP ganon to RC?

What if i play fonz at tournaments regularly who is a freaking nasty ganon and lets pretend i dont play sheik.

 

[Excellence]

This entire process is moving way too quickly for anyone to make a solid decision. The community is split in half between the people who see Meta Knight is overpowered and the people who don't see him overpowered enough to be banned. Instead of kicking him out of tournaments perminately, there should be some sort of short-term arrangement where he is banned for three or four months. After people get a feel for what the game is like without Meta Knight we can make a smart decision. One that most can support.

 

[Jem.]

I still think everyone should slow down on this conversation until the next national tournament. It's just hindering yourself if you feel he's unbeatable or making the game unfair.

 

[Tien2500]

What if i play fonz at tournaments regularly who is a freaking nasty ganon and lets pretend i dont play sheik.

Pick Sheik.

 

[Judo777]

Pick Sheik.

Why bother when i can fix all my problems by picking mk?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh, wow.

I quit. Anyone in NYC area want to play some Brawl+?

I'm free tomorrow and Wednesday.

Oooh you should totally try Brawl- when you get the chance. Hit me up, I'll send you the latest pre-alpha build.

Ya' **** skippy.

But apparently so are an alarming amount of TO's from around the nation.

The Metaknight discussion and how it has been approached and handled leads to no resolution. Issue comes back up in 6 months. Rinse, wash, and repeat forever. The BBR can make the statement to not ban Metaknight as many times as they please; the community will still be divided.

OMAR is attempting to solidify a specific stance instead of it just being temporary. It provides good data and shows what percentage of TO's out there want to make a stance and move on from the topic. These TO's aren't dumb nor ignorant of the MK debate; they are very intelligent and well-informed.

Anyway, if you have specific questions as I said, just send it to me in PM.

One question, which I said better in my PM, I guess... ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR ****ING MIND? This is a terrible idea.

OS may be perceived as a nicer route, but it's obvious that it's forcing the BBR's hand on the matter.


Omni's doing the same thing, but being more open about it (since MK unbanned is the status quo).




And you think OS's solution is any less crazy?


Omni was a little more blunt about it, but OS is doing the exact same thing, getting enough TOs together to pressure in the result he wants.

Except he isn't immediately forcing pressure, and he isn't pressuring.

i think overswarm is a troll. hes been only trying to get mk banned to troll us all !

You STILL have no good posts in this thread. Flame harder.

Can't we all just agree that Omni is right and everybody else is wrong?

Can't we all just agree that Overswarm is right and everybody else is wrong?

Newsflash: You don't have what it takes. Play a new game, use MK, or Q-Q more.



That's the point. The debate never ends. The poll happens Metaknight is not banned. Rinse and repeat forever. A vote has already occurred several times.

I'm not trying to "win" the next poll. Pretty positive pro-ban getting 2/3'rds majority ain't happenin'.

I'm trying to finish. End. Conclude. Be done. Move on.

That's why I'm doing what I do.

And in the meanwhile, you'd trample all over everything that anyone is trying to do to keep this game alive? Remember, more than half of the brawl community is pro-ban. More than half, consistently, with a rising tendency. And you'll just force your way in?

you know what would be a good way to end this?


A TEMP BAN


if it doesn't really help anything, then retract it.
if it does work then make it permanent.
>________>

The post quoted above this makes sense, please enact

Seriously, a temp ban is ideal at this point. 6 months, maybe a year. If everyone participates, we can bury the hatchet the right way. A 6-month temp ban now, and then a super majority vote-2/3rds majority needed to keep MK banned. Anyone else here think this is the most ******** and useless idea ever, or am I the only one who needs a lobotomy? :V

Reading has never been the problem. It's RESPONDING to novels that become the biggest pain. Hence why one-up'ing leads to further one-up'ing. I'm too lazy to consistently do that.

I also don't see you coming up with a better solution, OS.

What are you going to do if Metaknight is not banned? Wait for WHOBO/Pound 4 like results, use "new" data, and make more graphs for me to look at? Ain't happenin'.

So, instead of waiting for more data, you'll just end the argument, and if for some reason, MK goes from averaging 55/45 on viable chars to 60/40 or 65/35, or if the average top 8 at a national becomes this:
-ADHD
-Ally
-M2K
-Random MK
-Random MK
-Random MK
-Random MK
-Random MK

as a rule, you'll just keep him unbanned. Gee, great logic omni.

Or you could try to become actually good at this game. Because 90% of the Brawl community is not.

Actually contribute something or get the **** out. Seriously.

What will a 6 month temp ban do? There isn't even a legitimate cause for it as far as anyone has proven.

The only thing it will do is give pro-ban a precedence to work from. "We banned him for 6 mo. and it was pretty cool, huh? so we should do it permanent right?"

If he isn't ban worthy, he isn't ban worthy. If he is ban worthy, he is.

Oh sure. A majority of the game's players have wanted him banned, we have no clue how the metagame without him would look... a temp ban is totally senseless. Keep trying.

There is no reason not to temp ban.



To any pro-ban who would quit brawl if he is banned, or anti-ban who would quit if he is banned... MK remains a viable, yet not overpowering option in Brawl+, Brawl-, and BBrawl. In one, he even got buffed hard.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The old Emblem Lord quote. He was smart enough to quit the game and move on to SF4.

What a coincidence, I lurk over there, at least till I get good enough to actually play in tournaments, my sagat sucks because I lack technical skill.



Still **** a lot of people who have perfect execution for one reason... spacing. So much fun.



Yea, if this causes the community to explode, there's always SRK and....

*looks down*


The melee boards.

What data would or could that be?

A couple of things actually.


1. Mathmatically based MU ratios (needs a project in and of itself).

2. Character power in the metagame (either that or a direct adjustment to the current tournament results to account for MK's popularity).

3. Mid-level character distribution numbers.

4. Satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the metagame (along with whether it's because of MK or what).



All of those things and many more that I haven't even thought of could be used, but I'd place top priority on the first two out of this group.

Two things:

1) Last we talked to him, Sirlin was pro-ban.

2) Sirlin ignored his own advice and banned Akuma from SF:HD Remix


So I'm not sure why we would listen to his criteria...?

1. Prove it.

2. No he didn't, as I've stated before modeling SF MUs is a great deal easier then smash, as such those models hold a great deal more weight. His criteria assumed modeling as it's primary reasoning, we just require results.




Also, Sirlin's criteria is a basis, it establishes a min (50% of the cast non-viable), but it doesn't establish a rigid criteria in terms of what data is needed to prove this. The core assumption would be MU numbers, but it needs adaptation to fit any particular community.


Finally, why do we care? I have yet to see proof that he is aware enough of our situation to have a legitimate opinion on the issue. If he does, it's worth considering, but I wouldn't call it a deciding factor.

Anti-ban did post criteria, so did pro-ban. It was all in the last debate. None of anti-ban's stands up to snuff anymore and they haven't made anything new.

I posted a criteria, and I've been trying to get people to get together to form a consensus on something, as it was always meant to be a start for negotiation.

 

[Spelt]

why nobody for blazblue?
US needs a better blazblue scene.

 

[Overswarm]

why nobody for blazblue?
US needs a better blazblue scene.

That was my main. People stopped playing me around here, so I dropped it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

why nobody for blazblue?
US needs a better blazblue scene.

IIRC, CRASiC explained it nicely...

V-13 (NU) = Metaknight

EDIT: Dammit OS, stop being a ****ing ninja.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Adumdrodeus, that is certainly an interesting proposal.

 

[solecalibur]

why nobody for blazblue?
US needs a better blazblue scene.

I second this
*cough* dustloop
*cough* Offtopic

Must be getting sick today or something


edit - god damit OS stop ninjaing

 

[Judo777]

Temp ban is definitely the best idea. Why wouldn't you try something that could help the game. I could understand if it was like really expensive or difficult to try a temp ban but its really freaking easy. Seems like everyone is just saying "No i dont want to try something new i dont want to see if MK is bad or not i know he isnt overpowered so i just dont want to even try and test it!"