Official Metaknight Discussion

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes exactly. If MK makes the game unenjoyable enough that people want to stop playing it you no longer have a competitive scene.

False. MK doesn't make the game unenjoyable for many competitive players.

 

[Spelt]

link me to the 4th poll (i can't find it) and i'll find some good players who voted yes.
this argument can go both ways.

 

[fkacyan]

Plenty of people switched to the fotm/Meta Knight, though. Whenever a class got overpowered suddenly there were tons of rerolls (Paladins in general, but there have been others) to play the overpowered class. To keep the game from being centralized around said class, patches come out to fix them.

...you can't do that with MK.

So you're left with everyone playing him, limiting him by banning planking/scrooging etc, or banning him. Seems like we're kind of on the precipice of this now.

Speaking as somebody who has always played on the bleeding edge - or close to it - of PvE / PvP, the true best have never rerolled, and somehow always excelled with the cards dealt them / their class.

As opposed to saying "Wow, ADHD / Ally are gods among men" and calling them outliers, we should be trying to get to where they are. Clearly, it's possible - they're there already.

@Ether: I'm willing to call that bluff. In my opinion anybody willing to blindly ban MK is a fair loss for the community.

For the record, allow me to establish my own stance on the matter:

As no set criteria for a ban has been stated / made public, by my own criteria MK does not merit a ban.

I think there are many people on the anti / pro ban fences looking at the other side with skepticism and waiting to possibly hop given that a basis for logic to be used in this debate is put forth, myself included.

Once work steadies out for me I have my own research to go into to potentially make this a bit easier.

 

[Tien2500]

False. MK doesn't make the game unenjoyable for many competitive players.

That's why I said if. Read more carefully.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

False. MK doesn't make the game unenjoyable for many competitive players.

yes, yes it does

 

[<π]

I finnd the game very enjoyable with him in it. I think most of FL doesn't mind though I obviously can't speack for everyone.

 

[Sosuke]

Look at all these players who win tournaments (by beating MKs) not wanting MK banned.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

enjoyable for the mk players yes, for everyone else....no

 

[Turbo Ether]

Cyanide, you'd call the pro-ban bluff, but what about anti-ban?

If anti-ban said, "we'll quit the game, if MK is banned", would you also call the bluff?

I personally, wouldn't.

I'm curious what people would do, should their side lose.

 

[Nanaki]

Speaking as somebody who has always played on the bleeding edge - or close to it - of PvE / PvP, the true best have never rerolled, and somehow always excelled with the cards dealt them / their class.

As opposed to saying "Wow, ADHD / Ally are gods among men" and calling them outliers, we should be trying to get to where they are. Clearly, it's possible - they're there already.

Of course the true best haven't - they'll always find a way to make themselves useful/wanted. 'Bring the player, not the character', etc.

The problem is that Blizzard hauls in millions and millions by catering to the whining of the masses who say 'X is OP, nerf X and buff Y!'. Sure, they don't do it openly and quickly, but it gets done sooner or later, whether it's really necessary or not.

In the end, it all boils down to money. If it gets bad enough that nobody wants to play this game because MK dominates everything, the banhammer's going to fall fast to keep the money in play. If attendance stays decent or better, MK's going to stay around because the top pros want him around to make money.

fyi - I like your Death Knight.

 

[Tien2500]

I finnd the game very enjoyable with him in it. I think most of FL doesn't mind though I obviously can't speack for everyone.

Well that's fine. Other people think MK overcentralizes the metagame to the point where it becomes unenjoyable. Of course we enjoyability is not the only factor to consider but it is an important one as it directly relates to attendance.

 

[Overswarm]

so REALLLLLLY all you're saying is people would like the game better without metaknight, not that he is too good to be in it?

*facepalm*

No, no it isn't.

Don't go into a conversation and try to peg me on saying something and, instead, read exactly what I'm saying. You're as bad as Omni.

Omni asks question

OS answers

Omni: "Well what I WANTED you to say was ..... and that's totally wrong"

 

[<π]

enjoyable for the mk players yes, for everyone else....no

I don't play as MK at all. Sheik is probablly the highest tiered character I play in competitive settings, in fact my jiggs has seen play in tourney.

Most of FL's strong players don't main MK despite having some of the strongest ones in the nation (over hype maybe?) Like I've said many a time MK is very good. We, however, understand his openings and weakness down here... cuz we put the effort in. Its to the point where is you don't play a very strong MK you probably won't use him in tourney at all unlike other regions where it like "oops, my main lost I'll try MK)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd like to hear a real argument on why you should ban a character because he is "unenjoyable to play against".

That basically means any character that plays very defensively or boringly should be banned because its unenjoyable.

unenjoyable is subjective to the extreme. You can find tons of people who enjoy the game with him, and those who would like him removed. The point is, just because people don't enjoy him in the game doesn't give any objective reason to ban him from play.

 

[Spelt]

I'd like to hear a real argument on why you should ban a character because he is "unenjoyable to play against".

there a link to OS's thread where he presents a large post about a lot of pro-ban arguments in the OP.

why don't you read that first and then come back, because you're honestly looking like you have no idea what you're talking about right now.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'd like to hear a real argument on why you should ban a character because he is "unenjoyable to play against".

That basically means any character that plays very defensively or boringly should be banned because its unenjoyable.

unenjoyable is subjective to the extreme. You can find tons of people who enjoy the game with him, and those who would like him removed. The point is, just because people don't enjoy him in the game doesn't give any objective reason to ban him from play.

Unenjoyability is not the main argument.

 

[<π]

Well that's fine. Other people think MK overcentralizes the metagame to the point where it becomes unenjoyable. Of course we enjoyability is not the only factor to consider but it is an important one as it directly relates to attendance.

If you don't enjoy tourneys with MK then don't go to them. if you can't find any host your own. Don't force your ideals on me and my kind. lol.

I don't mean that specifically to you, but at least in my region people are always new people showing up to tourneys. people with something to prove, or people who want to learn, with MK still on the roster. My tournemt scene feels very healthy why should I have to change to make you comfortable when you could just as easily provide yourself with what you are looking for?

If they host a national level tourney in my area with MK banned I just wouldn't attend. For me a win there wouldn't mean anything, and I don't want to support future tournements like those. you should have that same resolve for your ideals.

 

[ADHD]

......look at all of those MKs.....

Look at the two characters above them.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

If you don't enjoy tourneys with MK then don't go to them. if you can't find any host your own. Don't force your ideals on me and my kind. lol.

I don't mean that specifically to you, but at least in my region people are always new people showing up to tourneys. people with something to prove, or people who want to learn, with MK still on the roster. My tournemt scene feels very healthy why should I have to change to make you comfortable when you could just as easily provide yourself with what you are looking for?

If they host a national level tourney in my area with MK banned I just wouldn't attend. For me a win there wouldn't mean anything, and I don't want to support future tournements like those. you should have that same resolve for your ideals.

then do as you say and don't go to mk ban tournaments and don't host any in your region. And learn how to spell tournament xd

 

[Spelt]

Look at the two characters above them.

trick question. nobody is higher than mk ):<

 

[Tien2500]

If you don't enjoy tourneys with MK then don't go to them. if you can't find any host your own. Don't force your ideals on me and my kind. lol.

I don't mean that specifically to you, but at least in my region people are always new people showing up to tourneys. people with something to prove, or people who want to learn, with MK still on the roster. My tournemt scene feels very healthy why should I have to change to make you comfortable when you could just as easily provide yourself with what you are looking for?

If they host a national level tourney in my area with MK banned I just wouldn't attend. For me a win there wouldn't mean anything, and I don't want to support future tournements like those. you should have that same resolve for your ideals.

Mkay. So if I stop going to your tournaments then that's less money in the prize pool for each person that doesn't attend which is less money in the prize pool. You say that your region isn't declining but others say that their regions are. If the tournament scene is split into MK and MK free then the community may not be sustainable.

I'd like to hear a real argument on why you should ban a character because he is "unenjoyable to play against".

That basically means any character that plays very defensively or boringly should be banned because its unenjoyable.

unenjoyable is subjective to the extreme. You can find tons of people who enjoy the game with him, and those who would like him removed. The point is, just because people don't enjoy him in the game doesn't give any objective reason to ban him from play.

This never has and never will be an objective argument. There is nothing that is essentially good for the metagame or essentially bad for the metagame its all a matter of opinion.

Items are the typical example. Items have not been shown overall to be broken, and many items are clearly not. But we play without items because most people prefer it that way.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Look at the two characters above them.

then look back down and shake your head again

 

[<π]

I already do do that...

Sorry I can't spell.

My stance is: if you "don't like it" or it's "unenjoyable". Don't inflate that idea into something that "splits the community" when turnouts right now very clearly prove the community is in no danger.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I already do do that...

Sorry I can't spell.

My stance is cool if you "don't like it" or it's "unenjoyable". Don't inflate that idea into something that "splits the community" when turnouts right now very clearly prove the community is in no danger.

Where YOU are.


You're lucky then, most areas are really virulent about this, one way or another.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

I already do do that...

Sorry I can't spell.

My stance is: if you "don't like it" or it's "unenjoyable". Don't inflate that idea into something that "splits the community" when turnouts right now very clearly prove the community is in no danger.

Your region doesn't represent all regions, so your argument goes both ways

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Let's boil this down to the nitty gritty:

A lot of people don't like the game with MK.

We can only hypothesize what the game would be like without MK.

With a 6 month temporary ban, we'd be able to compare the two metagames and make a decision off of which we'd rather see.

so REALLLLLLY all you're saying is people would like the game better without metaknight, not that he is too good to be in it?

How are those different? You're the one that brought up people's personal preference, not me. Any time someone presents you with a logical equivalence, you reject it and say we are putting words in your mouth.

 

[Tien2500]

I already do do that...

Sorry I can't spell.

My stance is: if you "don't like it" or it's "unenjoyable". Don't inflate that idea into something that "splits the community" when turnouts right now very clearly prove the community is in no danger.

Ummmmm... are turnouts very clearly showing that? I don't have any data either way to show either an increase or decrease in attendance so I can't say. If you have some sort of figures than go for it.

 

[Masmasher@]

I think in all the midst of all this "well we want mk banned or we dont want him banned" talk we forget that banning a character is a last resort.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Btw, Cyanide, a Brawl exodus is a lot more likely than a WoW exodus.

1. WoW is unquestionably the best game of its genre. If you quit, you'd have to run to an inferior MMORPG, or not play an MMORPG at all. Brawl is not the best fighter on the market. If you quit Brawl, there are superior fighting games you can get into.

2. Smash requires significantly more financial invest to participate in, than WoW. If you don't consistently profit at Smash tournaments, not entering can save a lot of money, compared to WoW's flat $15 a month.

3. The Smash community is significantly smaller, but a much larger ratio of the competitive playerbase participates on the boards and is aware of the issues. Much, large chunks of the playerbase are more easily influenced here.

4. WoW is effectively two games. PvErs don't care about which class is overpowered in PvP and viceversa. Unlike Brawl, where we're all playing the same game, and are equally exposed to imbalances.

 

[fkacyan]

Of course the true best haven't - they'll always find a way to make themselves useful/wanted. 'Bring the player, not the character', etc.

The problem is that Blizzard hauls in millions and millions by catering to the whining of the masses who say 'X is OP, nerf X and buff Y!'. Sure, they don't do it openly and quickly, but it gets done sooner or later, whether it's really necessary or not.

In the end, it all boils down to money. If it gets bad enough that nobody wants to play this game because MK dominates everything, the banhammer's going to fall fast to keep the money in play. If attendance stays decent or better, MK's going to stay around because the top pros want him around to make money.

fyi - I like your Death Knight.

A lot of people like my Death Knight. Sadly, she won't be seeing much raid action in the weeks to come due to an extremely inflexible schedule. ;(

I sincerely doubt that MK staying legal will have the same negative consequences an unjustified - or seemingly unjustified - MK ban would as far as attendance goes.

Btw, Cyanide, a Brawl exodus is a lot more likely than a WoW exodus.

1. WoW is unquestionably the best game of its genre. If you quit, you'd have to run to an inferior MMORPG, or not play an MMORPG at all. Brawl is not the best fighter on the market. If you quit Brawl, there are superior fighting games you can get into.

2. Smash requires significantly more financial invest to participate in, than WoW. If you don't consistently profit at Smash tournaments, not entering can save a lot of money, compared to WoW's flat $15 a month.

3. The Smash community is significantly smaller, but a much larger ratio of the competitive playerbase participates on the boards and is aware of the issues. Much, large chunks of the playerbase are more easily influenced here.

4. WoW is effectively two games. PvErs don't care about which class is overpowered in PvP and viceversa. Unlike Brawl, where we're all playing the same game, and are equally exposed to imbalances.

1. The majority of the people quitting lack the skill, be it technical or otherwise, to be good at essentially any fighting game, let alone those with technical barriers.
2. Can't dispute this.
3. I've seen more people in the NJ rankings thread than in every thread in Stage Discussion and most influential threads on this forum, ignoring the fifteen-car pileup that is the tier thread. I'm not really sure this is true, especially with the advent of AiB.
4. Ah, but nerfs and buffs almost always spill over into the other and force people to be aware. As a Death Knight and Rogue I know this feeling more than many other classes do.

 

[Spelt]

Brawl is not the best fighter on the market. If you quit Brawl, there are superior fighting games you can get into.

this is completely opinion based.

 

[Turbo Ether]

this is completely opinion based.

I'm well aware.

 

[<π]

Mkay. So if I stop going to your tournaments then that's less money in the prize pool for each person that doesn't attend which is less money in the prize pool. You say that your region isn't declining but others say that their regions are. If the tournament scene is split into MK and MK free then the community may not be sustainable.

Why not? there are tons of people who don't care who attend both.compare the people who are actively participating in this debate to those who aren't for example. Where as in mine Banning MK may hurt the community. in yours it may rejuvenate. By taking the first step on your own you saved your smash region!

You don't really have a reason to put other people a head of yourself when are you going to put money into the pot if you don't feel like you can win anyone it, or you don't feel like you'll have a good time?

This never has and never will be an objective argument. There is nothing that is essentially good for the metagame or essentially bad for the metagame its all a matter of opinion.

thanks.

Items are the typical example. Items have not been shown overall to be broken, and many items are clearly not. But we play without items because most people prefer it that way.

It's a perfect example. I am so pro items you have no idea. but I suck it up because I'm not going to get a big turnout of highly skilled players if I host a tournement with items on. In a world with MK banned only tournements I'd be forced to suck it up or participate. if you feel like you'll get a strong enough following there is no reason not to host a tournement with your own rule set.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbVnEm2biwU&NR=1

 

[Overswarm]

How are those different? You're the one that brought up people's personal preference, not me. Any time someone presents you with a logical equivalence, you reject it and say we are putting words in your mouth.

You were asking why we'd need a temp ban, so I told you:

A lot of people don't like MK.

I didn't say why; everyone can have their own reason ranging from "he overcentralizes the game to a point where it's play MK or lose" or "MK has cut my region's participation in half" to "MK is blue" or "his voice scares me". I really don't care about any of it when answering this discussion.

We can only hypothesize what the game would be like without MK.

This means that no matter why people want MK gone, they can't say what they'll get next; they can only make educated guesses based off the data we have. So we can't say "this is waht we'll have without MK" and let people choose which they'd rather have, for whatever reason. People that are scared of blue or MK's voice might not be happy with Lucario's voice and blue fur. People that are afraid of overcentralization or regional participatoin may find a new character doing the same thing. Data that we have shows this is unlikely but we don't know.

With a 6 month temporary ban, we'd be able to compare the two metagames and make a decision off of which we'd rather see.

Pretty self-explanitory. A 6-month ban would actually put the issue to rest unless the results were ridiculously borderline, which is incredibly unlikely.



I even mentioned in my post I was boiling it down to the vaguest, most over-encompassing statements just to show you why a temporary ban is a good solution. :\

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there a link to OS's thread where he presents a large post about a lot of pro-ban arguments in the OP.

why don't you read that first and then come back, because you're honestly looking like you have no idea what you're talking about right now.

I wish i read that earlier.

Metaknight needs to be banned. The evidence people are looking for cannot physically exist. This is pure dominance

you heard it from him folks. There is no evidence.

 

[gallax]

I don't mean that specifically to you, but at least in my region people are always new people showing up to tourneys. people with something to prove, or people who want to learn, with MK still on the roster. My tournemt scene feels very healthy why should I have to change to make you comfortable when you could just as easily provide yourself with what you are looking for?

If they host a national level tourney in my area with MK banned I just wouldn't attend. For me a win there wouldn't mean anything, and I don't want to support future tournements like those. you should have that same resolve for your ideals.

this is floridas mentality basically. our scene here is perfectly fine.many people use mk, but many do not succeed in tournies due to the fact that florida knows how to fights MK. the same goes with snake and ddd. florida knows these matchups sooooo well that if you want to succeed you have to be amazing with them. in fact, in our region, if we dont know a fight someone usually picks up that character and learns it then gives everyone experience in that fight(which is rare cuz we see like every char except ganon and cf in tournies lol).

i cannot see florida banning mk. we just dont have the prroblem that everyone else does. but we have amazing weather here all the time so thats prolly why.

 

[Masmasher@]

Why hasnt yuna come in here and destroyed the idea of a temp ban yet... really you would think after 5 polls of the idea being tarnished you guys would just skip the theactrics.

Also remember banning a character is a LAST resort.

 

[Espy Rose]

He tried back in like, the 1st-3rd threads about this.

And if his goal was to stop the nonsense, then he failed. Miserably.

 

[yummynbeefy]

shaky is insane i dont even play brawl and i like watching him