Official MBR Tier List

[handsockpuppet]

i could win with mario

u guys dont bout that

mango mario

You'd be worshiped in the Roy boards if you played a few matches with Roy. Besides Sethlon, nobody even half-decent plays Roy anymore. Then again, nobody did before, besides Neo and Masashi.

 

[nicaboy]

i could win with mario

u guys dont bout that

mango mario

im calling your bluff mango. next week when i get back too socal mm me in mario ditto.
nicaboy's mario? ahh ****

 

[MaNg0]

aight ill play roy 2

no u wont shut up

 

[nicaboy]

oh somebody is mad? fine i will keep my money

 

[rhan]

I'm more curious if Mango could win a tournament with a mid/low tier.
Say Luigi or Young Link.



I'm also excited to see this peach wreck some people.

I wanna see him use Young Link. There aren't many of us brave enough to go into a tourney as Young Link.

 

[Binx]

ur right. its not that mango likes puff hes just sooo good that he wants a challenge.

Play with who ur are comfortable with and other characters are good cps at the least

Not really what I meant, I didn't actually say that anyone didn't like a character or that a character wasn't good, what I said was you are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you don't pick Fox Marth, Sheik or Falco, period. The other 20 characters are not as good as those 4. Those 4 dominate in every single category, except Falco doesn't have lots of ground speed, fortunately he makes up for it by slowing yours to a crawl anyways.

The other characters have some of the advantages but they aren't as pronounced or they lack in some areas, like Falcon can combo and is fast and has pretty decent range, he lacks a good recovery, consistent gimps and priority, is he a bad character, I personally don't think so, but he isn't a Fox is he?

The top players > tiers anyways

 

[Divinokage]

I think the lowest ranked character that ever won a large tournament in 07 was ICs for Pound 2 but that's not really fair because Chu is a top level player, and easily one of the top 5 players for that era. Mango at Pound 3 was also similar, with mid tier / high tier (whatever you count Puff as) winning it, but again it's troublesome to use that because Mango's really good so you could also make the argument for simple player skill. Also, M2K hates Puff

On West Coast there was a large tournament with Luigi Ka-Master and Hugs in the finals, so if we're going off slightly smaller (but still formidable) tournaments, then Samus is also viable, but again we have the issue of Hugs and Ka simply being better than people at that time. Hugs is semi-retired from Melee (or did he quit entirely? Someone correct me on this), and Ka doesn't travel much, though, so - like Pound 2 - it's somewhat of an isolated incident.

The top four have a significantly higher amount of winning power than the characters below them. I think Jigglypuff, Falcon, and Peach all have enough to win good sized events, and get far, and a good pilot can take a mid tier pretty far, but whether or not the mid tiers can actually pull off a win with how gay Melee's become / is becoming is a tough one. I'm optimistic, though, so I'll give a very guarded "yes".

For major tournament, I think the upper end of mid tier can go far but I don't think unless they're more skilled or lucky or something they'll be able to win. Similarly, I think it would be brutally hard, but high tier could probably do it too.

I already won some tourneys with Ganon, owned =p

 

[Shroomed]

mango, u got urself a mario ditto!

BRING IT!!!

(alan will be mad at you if u beat me)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I already won some tourneys with Ganon, owned =p

You won tournaments with the criteria I specified? That criteria being top level player attendance.

 

[Mokumo]

so u guys want a peach to win a tourney?


aight

ill start playing her


ahhhh ****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEgfv2JuZo0

the last combo at 7:14

lol

 

[Divinokage]

You won tournaments with the criteria I specified? That criteria being top level player attendance.

Well I won some doubles! And.. placed well... lol.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

mango win a tourney with peach i really wanna see that. and no one ever answer my question. i dont think peach has ever won a high level tourney in good ole USA!

 

[cykofox]

mango can and will win a tourney with peach.
but like kaze said, exceptionally over the top players are not criteria to go by.

 

[cubaisdeath]

mango win a tourney with peach i really wanna see that. and no one ever answer my question. i dont think peach has ever won a high level tourney in good ole USA!

yeah, PAL peach is too good..


well, its not that she is too good, its that everyone else got nerfed LOL

 

[Mokumo]

mango win a tourney with peach i really wanna see that. and no one ever answer my question. i dont think peach has ever won a high level tourney in good ole USA!

i don't know about any peach mains winning big tournaments in the past, but i know that top pros like azen and pc chris have used peach as reliable counterpicks throughout their career, and that must count for something.

 

[Razor]

(the top players and their chars) vs (actual tier list) is a very interesting debate.

the edgeguarding stuff that m2k did in '07 was incredible, but it now seems commonplace. However, when he ***** every sheik on the planet with marth, that didn't make the sheik/marth matchup any less broken.

i think this seems to indicate this: top players can uncover clever tactics that others can copy, but no single tactic can change a matchup.

 

[handsockpuppet]

What people do not realize is one person being good with a character doesn't make that character good, and most of the time only helps a little with tier placement. People like Taj and Bum helped Mewtwo and DK's placement, but only like 2 steps.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think Marth is fourth.

O SHIZZLE IT'S GOT NO BACKIN BUT IT'S GOOD!

Going back a bit in the discussion, here's a few things which people seem ignorant about in PAL:

- Falco's D Air IS NOT A METEOR IN PAL. The difference is the second half of the hitbox (in terms of time) has a horizontal-ish knockback. That's the only difference Falco has and it means Falco is basically unchanged, considering if you're hitting with the latter half of D Air then you're doing it wrong.
- Marth is slightly lighter and his D Air IS a meteor now. Lighter is bad in every matchup because he's knocked further and edgeguarded/dies quicker, but it's an advantage in the Fox matchup because he falls down from shine and like, 90% of Fox's NSTC game against Marth is shine U Throw.
- Fox's only difference is in his U Smash which in statistics, does 17% (instead of 18%) and, as an example, kills Peach at 83% on FD instead of 70%. U Air is exactly the same, it didn't get stronger as someone falsely claimed.
- Sheik's D Throw trajectory is completely screwed with. I'm not sure the exact characters, but let's say she can't CG most (if any?) of the cast now, though she can still followup well and do all the techchase BS. Her U Air has also been weakened, which is both a pro and a con because now she can't vert KO as easily, BUT she can now combo U Air into F Air (which by the way is the same, not weakened).
- Peach's only difference is something minor changed in her Up B (I can't remember exactly what but it's a small good thing), so she's insignificantly bumped.

Feel free to respond to this post with no-one cares about PAL, I just felt like cleaning up rife misconceptions.

And yeah, someone adress my Marth point.

 

[JPOBS]

if what you've said in the above post true, then i dont see why people automatically scoff off PAL players because "but but its pal!"

like the whole "armada gonna get pwned when he plays nstc" thing a while back, i guess its cuz theres this notion that PAL is completely different but it doesnt seem like the changes are THAT big.

how different is thier tierlist?

 

[B0mbe1c]

Their tier list is only different by a few character places I believe.

 

[Pink Reaper]

if what you've said in the above post true, then i dont see why people automatically scoff off PAL players because "but but its pal!"

like the whole "armada gonna get pwned when he plays nstc" thing a while back, i guess its cuz theres this notion that PAL is completely different but it doesnt seem like the changes are THAT big.

how different is thier tierlist?

The difference is that it's not THEIR game. NTSC players scoff at PAL simply because it's not what they play. There's no proof either game is better, there's just proof that they're different and for the most part people will avoid what's different. Even if the changes aren't huge >_>

 

[Tamoo]

Our tierlist if very outdated so i wouldnt pay much attention to it tbh,

and yeah, all blistering speed said is true, there are way too many misconceptions about PAL

 

[x After Dawn x]

- Marth is slightly lighter and his D Air IS a meteor now. Lighter is bad in every matchup because he's knocked further and edgeguarded/dies quicker, but it's an advantage in the Fox matchup because he falls down from shine and like, 90% of Fox's NSTC game against Marth is shine U Throw.

Thunder's Combo says hi.

 

[handsockpuppet]

Another thing people don't realize is that tthe tier lists are not always 100% right. I don't remember the link, but I saw the Euro tier list, and it was a lot different. however, a lot of the changes probably don't have to do with PAL, it's just because European players play in Europe (it doesn't sound believable, I know, but bare with me) and the people winning all the tournements use slightly different characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Completely different playstyles generated by different playing environments and a different game is why we keep out of the PAL tier list.

edit: After Dawn, thunders combo is easily avoided, just hold up when Fox jabs you, you'll get out of it really, really early. This works for most jab resets too. Being able to shine --> grab guaranteed is better than avoidable tech chase jab resets.

 

[JPOBS]

Completely different playstyles generated by different playing environments and a different game is why we keep out of the PAL tier list.

edit: After Dawn, thunders combo is easily avoided, just hold up when Fox jabs you, you'll get out of it really, really early. This works for most jab resets too. Being able to shine --> grab guaranteed is better than avoidable tech chase jab resets.

wat does up do?

i know left/right lets you roll

 

[handsockpuppet]

he doesn't mean shield + up, he just means jump (I think). the jump doesn't take a lot of frames, and therefore is the fastest thing most characters can do, with the exception of fox and Falco's shine and Bowser's up B (and maybe some others).

 

[ArcNatural]

wat does up do?

i know left/right lets you roll

Up pops the character up to a standing animation (like how if jab someone at like 70% they pop up).

Edit: So if your laying on the ground and hold up you will pop up and get out of the jab shenanigans quicker.

 

[Rappster]

I think the lowest ranked character that ever won a large tournament in 07 was ICs for Pound 2

i'm probably wrong, but didn't gimpyfish win a major wit Bowser?

 

[Grunt]

Gimpy hasn't won anything big, hes just really good.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

He's good, he just can't win.

:] <3 gimpy

it's the bowser

 

[x After Dawn x]

Completely different playstyles generated by different playing environments and a different game is why we keep out of the PAL tier list.

edit: After Dawn, thunders combo is easily avoided, just hold up when Fox jabs you, you'll get out of it really, really early. This works for most jab resets too. Being able to shine --> grab guaranteed is better than avoidable tech chase jab resets.

Very true, but I was just pointing out that if they fall over, it's not always a tech chase if you manage to pull off a Thunder's Combo.

By the way, is it just me or does the PAL tier list need some updating...

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well I could be completely wrong since I havent looked at it but marth being fourth doesnt sound too outrageous considering his dair is a meteor now. That was a super gimp on spacies and floaties who get caught DIing wrong.

I just think as far as pal goes, even if the differences are minor, the mentality is a little different. I think that a few key moves are altered a little and ppl rely on more or less in different versions.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falling down from Fox's shine is, in my opinion, a bigger bump to Marth's standing in the metagame then a meteor D Air.

Also, DJ Nintendo is better then Gimpyfish. *runs*

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Thunder's Combo says hi.

On Marth (in PAL) it only works to about 15% max, so you'd pretty much need to thunder's him at 0 for it to work at all, and ASDI still ruins that.

Also, everyone should always SDI thunder's anyway.

 

[Tero.]

if what you've said in the above post true, then i dont see why people automatically scoff off PAL players because "but but its pal!"

like the whole "armada gonna get pwned when he plays nstc" thing a while back, i guess its cuz theres this notion that PAL is completely different but it doesnt seem like the changes are THAT big.

how different is thier tierlist?

PAL Tier List is totaly out dated.
Don't rely on it, but yeah I agree about the Armada thing.

I think Marth is fourth.

O SHIZZLE IT'S GOT NO BACKIN BUT IT'S GOOD!

Going back a bit in the discussion, here's a few things which people seem ignorant about in PAL:

- Falco's D Air IS NOT A METEOR IN PAL. The difference is the second half of the hitbox (in terms of time) has a horizontal-ish knockback. That's the only difference Falco has and it means Falco is basically unchanged, considering if you're hitting with the latter half of D Air then you're doing it wrong.
- Marth is slightly lighter and his D Air IS a meteor now. Lighter is bad in every matchup because he's knocked further and edgeguarded/dies quicker, but it's an advantage in the Fox matchup because he falls down from shine and like, 90% of Fox's NSTC game against Marth is shine U Throw.
- Fox's only difference is in his U Smash which in statistics, does 17% (instead of 18%) and, as an example, kills Peach at 83% on FD instead of 70%. U Air is exactly the same, it didn't get stronger as someone falsely claimed.
- Sheik's D Throw trajectory is completely screwed with. I'm not sure the exact characters, but let's say she can't CG most (if any?) of the cast now, though she can still followup well and do all the techchase BS. Her U Air has also been weakened, which is both a pro and a con because now she can't vert KO as easily, BUT she can now combo U Air into F Air (which by the way is the same, not weakened).
- Peach's only difference is something minor changed in her Up B (I can't remember exactly what but it's a small good thing), so she's insignificantly bumped.

Feel free to respond to this post with no-one cares about PAL, I just felt like cleaning up rife misconceptions.

And yeah, someone adress my Marth point.

This is wrong.
You're right about upsmash, but his up B is also shorter in PAL.

Sheik can't CG at all if your opponent doesn't screw up DI, she can't really do anything from dthrow (if your opponent DIs correct) beside tech chase and maybe a dash attack on a few characters at certain %.

Thunder's Combo says hi.

What everyone allready said: It's easy avoidable and not even near as good as waveshine grab.

Well I could be completely wrong since I havent looked at it but marth being fourth doesnt sound too outrageous considering his dair is a meteor now. That was a super gimp on spacies and floaties who get caught DIing wrong.

I just think as far as pal goes, even if the differences are minor, the mentality is a little different. I think that a few key moves are altered a little and ppl rely on more or less in different versions.

Marth is actually better in PAL than in NTSC.
Since Fox can't shine combo him this MU is in Marth's favor (except for some cp stages).

Sheik is also way easier in PAL because she can't do stuff from grab so that MU is almost even.

Even though I personally prefer NTSC, I have to admit that PAL is actually a bit more balanced.

 

[Binx]

Marth is actually worse in PAL, because he loses some power on his smash I believe and he for sure LOSES a lot of gimping options vs floaties because he no longer has a spike. Maybe in comparison to the rest of his cast he still wrecks, but this would hurt his match up with Peach, since she is so hard to kill already, although he has enough range to get around it I'm sure, I'm just saying that making other people worse doesn't mean Marth is "better" just not as bad as other members of the cast, I don't like nerfs.

Maybe his bad match ups being evened out a little more makes up for it, but like several people have stated, they are different games, I don't play PAL so I don't really care much about the differences.

 

[Tero.]

Marth is actually worse in PAL, because he loses some power on his smash I believe and he for sure LOSES a lot of gimping options vs floaties because he no longer has a spike. Maybe in comparison to the rest of his cast he still wrecks, but this would hurt his match up with Peach, since she is so hard to kill already, although he has enough range to get around it I'm sure, I'm just saying that making other people worse doesn't mean Marth is "better" just not as bad as other members of the cast, I don't like nerfs.

Maybe his bad match ups being evened out a little more makes up for it, but like several people have stated, they are different games, I don't play PAL so I don't really care much about the differences.

Marth is not worse in PAL.

 

[handsockpuppet]

Hey, let's come to an agreement. Who the **** cares? there's no use arguing about the European version, since we've established and therefore can't really be compared. I personally think it's more balanced, since Nintendo tried to make the better characters worse and the worse characters better, but whatever happened it's still different (frankly the NTSC is different then the Japanese one, a little more balanced IMO). So how about now we discuss the North American Tier list?

EDIT: Oh yeah and this was my 1337th post

 

[JBM falcon08]

cept sheik.

she's still rigged other than like 2 things.