Official MBR Tier List

[Smash G 0 D]

How many people here have actually played a legit good Peach? She's tougher than most people think -.-

and not because we'll accidentally crouch cancel Dsmash, cuz that's a rare mistake.

I agree that Jiggs and Falcon can **** mistakes pretty hard, but I don't think Peach depends on it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Depends is indeed hyperbole, because she can certainly win if the opponent's doing fine (she's high tier, after all), but her bad speed, slow double jump, and weaker punishes create a bigger hole in her overall gameplay than Falcon's defensive failure and comparatively poor close range combat and Jigglypuff's physics shortcomings.

I will admit Peach is d*mn hard to punish for anything she does if she's got good spacing (lagless aerials are dumb). Trouble is, you can shoot her, and there's not too much she can do back beyond lacing up her stillettos and trying to catch up.

 

[cubaisdeath]

ICs have a lot of matchups that seem really really bad, I have no idea how good ICs manage to compete with them

chaingrabs are the ultimate equalizer lol

 

[pkmvodka]

Well then I'm sorry Unknown, I may of taken a bit too personally because everytime I see like Ganon is a **** character or you should change a character, in my head it's literally saying that I'm not good enough. And I don't like it! I want to accomplish the impossible, you have to understand that, the iron will or unrelenting will to never stop and keep going until you crush everybody!

Old post but whatever.

Kage, this is not ****talk, but when we say ganon is limited, he is. Want proof?

Your playstyle. You undoubtely developped what is the best style for ganondorf to compete in the current metagame. But it has some minor flaws in it not because you're not good enough, but because sticking to ganondorf forever simply erases your opportunity as a player to have an adaptative playing style.

What i'm saying is, everything around your playstyle can be summarized into a few categories and in the long run, I think that's why it hurts when you face people that are used to your style. Most of the stuff you do is either jump back fair to punish bad spacing, crouch cancel to punish spacing / bad l-cancels, flawless edgeguard to get kills and every so often random BS that makes us lawl. That's perfectly fine. You do a fine job at being explosive and getting kills I must admit, but your defensive game is..how can I word it.. still the same?

You're so used to play ganondorf and being offensive that you simply can't improve your defensive game while playing him without changing drastically your style. It's just impossible. No matter how good offensively you got, how good at poking shields and edgeguarding you got, when I combo you around, you're not exactly a fearsome monster or kage the stylist. You're a huge target with a subpar defensive game (kinda like Matt) that is not improving.

You have some of the best DI i've seen, but somehow, you always get caught in really stupid combos that don't work on other people. This alone makes me think that it's caused by your playstyle and how you see the game or something. Like it's as if when you get ken comboed, you don't try to learn how to DI the fair, but instead you tell yourself that you shouldn't get grabbed or whatever was the setup for it. I don't know how to word it but it's weird and i'm pretty sure most people that have played you as much as I did would agree.


TL;DR : You're a crazy good ganon but your greatest strength is your downfall. Wanting to become the best using only ganon forged a very stagnant playing style.

feel free to ask questions or flame me. But may I remind you that this isn't trashtalk, I don't want to create a ****storm with kage's fanboys either, i'm just telling you straight up what I think is a limit.

 

[indie_dave]

we <3 kage and we <3 pkmvodka.

easy :D

ganon on defense hmmhmmm

 

[cubaisdeath]

ganon in general has defensive flaws, its not JUST kage lol.


but yeah, kage is definitely the best ganon, no doubt

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falcon's defensive flaws are even worse than Ganon's, IMO.

 

[cubaisdeath]

how so? ganon can be combo'd easier, and his recovery is worse than falcon's he lacks a sweetspot on his triple jump to get back to the stage. not to mention his poor horizontal recovery in general

 

[Tero.]

how so? ganon can be combo'd easier, and his recovery is worse than falcon's he lacks a sweetspot on his triple jump to get back to the stage. not to mention his poor horizontal recovery in general

...

What?
Are you kidding?

 

[pockyD]

Falcon's defensive flaws are even worse than Ganon's, IMO.

baseless assertions all day

 

[Ryan-K]

The fact that falcon can run away already allows him to be more defensive than ganon lol

 

[B0mbe1c]

The fact that falcon can run away already allows him to be more defensive than ganon lol

Totally agreed 100%.

 

[x After Dawn x]

how so? ganon can be combo'd easier, and his recovery is worse than falcon's he lacks a sweetspot on his triple jump to get back to the stage. not to mention his poor horizontal recovery in general

LOL

are you kidding or are you trolling?

 

[pockyD]

you made a statement with no proof

he countered your statement with some "proof"

instead of even refuting his counter (which you didn't deserve btw, since you didn't even attempt to back up your original statement), you again just ambiguously disagree

do you at any point want to contribute to the conversation?

 

[Rat]

Not considering Recovery or Get-*****-Ness.

Who is better, Fox or Falco?

 

[Vts]

Not considering Recovery or Get-*****-Ness.

Who is better, Fox or Falco?

depends on ur playing style and map.

i think falco is better than fox when they are facing each other but other wise fox just has gayer stuff on more people than falco does.

 

[Ryan-K]

Fox because he is a much more consistent killer and his combos are also more consistent. He also has an actual grab game and his speed is more consistent. If you watch most Falco matches, falco usually goes in "bursts" in momentum, whereas fox is far more consistent imo and that makes him better.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Fox, waveshining with a set knockback to an easy usmash or the 100 other things it works into is why i think fox's shine is better

falco when you take out the stage gimpy-ness at least has a pretty good edgeguarding game with a spike and a laser that can eff with other recoveries

Fox also has a good grab game uthrow-uair anyone? Or the **** techchase: dthrow-jc usmash?

But with all that said, Falco is more fun to watch and is overall cooler. Too bad fox is better :'(

 

[Binx]

dthrow upsmash is in no way a reason Fox is better than Falco, in fact I can't think of a situation I would use Fox's dthrow over his uthrow vs anyone but jiggs, lol. Even then uthrow is better 90% of the time.

Fox is faster, short hops lower, and is better at gimping most characters, hit grabs are much better and in top levels of play they can combo for similar amounts of damage vs more of the cast, although Falco's tend to come easier from what I've noticed.

Both characters are gimped pretty easily but Fox's recovery being longer gives him a few more options off the ledge. Both offensively and defensively.

 

[Divinokage]

Edgeguarding a falcon is easier than edgeguarding a Ganon for sure. It's just really obvious if hes going for a sweet spot or tries to go over the edge. A shine spike can be DIed with Ganon, with Falcon good luck lol. I can name all the characters but forget it lol. Also the obvious down B is more versatile with Ganon too.

 

[Binx]

both are pretty easy to edgeguard IMO, it doesn't really make much of a difference at high levels of play beyond the fact you typically have to hit ganon about 47 times instead of 3 times, so more chances to make a mistake, but its unlikely in either case. Especially with Marth, Sheik, Fox, or Falco, which **** both of those characters both on and off the stage.

I have an easier time CGing Falcon to death once I grab him with ICs though so... I guess Ganon wins there.

 

[Divinokage]

both are pretty easy to edgeguard IMO, it doesn't really make much of a difference at high levels of play beyond the fact you typically have to hit ganon about 47 times instead of 3 times, so more chances to make a mistake, but its unlikely in either case. Especially with Marth, Sheik, Fox, or Falco, which **** both of those characters both on and off the stage.

I have an easier time CGing Falcon to death once I grab him with ICs though so... I guess Ganon wins there.

yes definitely, both are pretty easy to edgeguard. And I would beg to differ about Marth and Sheik on stage that **** Ganon. Marth vs Ganon is an even matchup and I may even say Ganon has advantage just for the fact that I have not lost a set on that matchup yet. Sheik/Ganon on stage well.. it's a spacing game and Sheik will most likely get the grab before you, last tournament i went i experienced that a lot lol. And off stage it's gay for both characters too, just grab the ledge wait for sheik to get on stage and then bam a free move. Fox off stage can basically backair all day or shine, sucks but Ganon does not have much choice lol, you have to stay above the ledge at all times generally. On stage, it's hard because you have to space his priority and its tough. Falco can downair but if you sweetspot the ledge that move fails always and he also has the backair bleh lol, or shine/downair if he feels a little bit flashy. Though if you do the edgeguard correctly with Ganon on both spacies, it's pretty easy but you must have decent/good guessing... safest way would probably be either backair or reverse upair.

Edit: i don't explain things often but if you know more about this, just say so. =P Now that im thinking I didn't help much did I? lol.

 

[Binx]

I guess I could go ahead and agree that Marth and Ganon are close, but Marth is much faster, so if he does get a lead he gains a lot of advantage because then he is safe to camp. I'm gonna stand by the other characters ****** Ganon, Falco doesn't seem to edgeguard many characters very effectively, and good Ganon's will tech everything, so yeah its basically bairs all day, but Ganon is big and slow so its just a lot of pew pew.

I don't know how much PSing helps Ganon in the match up, but I'd imagine not much so correct me if the matchup at very high levels is less in Falco's favor or not. I personally still think Ganon should be above Samus Puff should be under or tied with Falcon and Peach should move below Falcon.

Ganon seems to be a better overall character than Samus due to range and priority, Samus easily has a better recovery but having less range and priority really hurts her in a lot of match ups, I think she loses worse to the high tiers than Ganon does, which is really what should matter since you are going to run into those characters more often in tournament situations.

Puff has a really good spacing game and recovery as well as excellent options to punish mistakes, easy edgeguards and pretty good priority, and although she doesn't have as good of range as some characters she has a lot of auto cancels and a good OoS game, add to that, she also can't be combo'd by almost any character.

Falcon and Peach is really debatable, at this point I'm not sure which I think is the better character, but I do know that Falcon is better represented and that it's very close, both in terms of general prowess and overall match ups.

 

[Divinokage]

The higher matchups are not ****, it's just simply slight advantages. Any top tier characters off stage against Ganon should die. Well Magus taught me some stuff against Falco and it seems to work well, and also theres Linguini which will **** Falcos and maybe Foxes i don't know but... The trick vs Falcos is to do things in between the laser spams, it may seem hard at first but once you get the hang of it, it's the Falco that will feel pressured not you.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What sort of things, Kage?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but from the way I see it is that some of the high tiers (most notably the Space Animals and Sheik) have tools that keep you from doing anything in the interim. Ganon can't just swipe away needles and lasers. Despite the mobility wavedashing/wavelanding gives him, he's still not quick enough to get around from point A to point B to AVOID such an assault. Best thing you can do at that point is rely on Ganon's weight, DI/tech anything your opponent throws at you, and hope they slip up so that you can capitalize.

Wouldn't it boil down to what stage the Ganon players has those problem characters (re: Sheik, Falco, and Fox) on?

Smooth Criminal

 

[soap]

it may seem hard at first but once you get the hang of it, it's the Falco that will feel pressured not you.

ugh, i know exactly what u are talking about.

i hate that matchup from both sides

 

[Smooth Criminal]

ugh, i know exactly what u are talking about.

i hate that matchup from both sides

>_>

Considering Falco can be put out to the point of no return on certain stages courtesy of a few attacks from Ganon? And the edgeguarding? Yeah, I see the pressure. Lol.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Divinokage]

What sort of things, Kage?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but from the way I see it is that some of the high tiers (most notably the Space Animals and Sheik) have tools that keep you from doing anything in the interim. Ganon can't just swipe away needles and lasers. Despite the mobility wavedashing/wavelanding gives him, he's still not quick enough to get around from point A to point B to AVOID such an assault. Best thing you can do at that point is rely on Ganon's weight, DI/tech anything your opponent throws at you, and hope they slip up so that you can capitalize.

Wouldn't it boil down to what stage the Ganon players has those problem characters (re: Sheik, Falco, and Fox) on?

Smooth Criminal

It's definitely possible to avoid falco's lasers and sheiks needles, Fox's lasers however there's no way they come out too fast lol. Sheik needle you just need to stay out of the way or jump over them, the advantage that sheik has over Ganon is simply her speed and she can outspace Ganon, edgeguards can go both ways. Falco well you can go in between them, power shield them, of course you'll get hit by a few of them, you need to pull out moves in his move stun, I've learned usually theyll go for lasers to downair, shine, or just something into shine, you have to go away, or just keep a pressuring distance with them, I think it's easier to space vs falco than Fox. And ya again if you manage a combo on falco its done lol.

 

[pockyD]

the main drawback with ganon is that due to his speed and lack of projectiles, he almost never controls the match (maybe vs like jiggly and ice climbers, but not against any other relevant characters), so he is forced into playing either a reactive game or simply hoping for a mistake, and when you're debating theory-smash, controlling the match is a HUGE point

 

[x After Dawn x]

you made a statement with no proof

he countered your statement with some "proof"

instead of even refuting his counter (which you didn't deserve btw, since you didn't even attempt to back up your original statement), you again just ambiguously disagree

do you at any point want to contribute to the conversation?

I make statements with proof when I want to. What I said above wasn't a concrete factual statement, I said "IMO" meaning I have empirical results to form my own opinion.

 

[Divinokage]

In theory it's at least, less pronounced in melee than in brawl. Projectiles do not give complete control of a match in melee while in brawl it pretty much does. For example just try to go through snake's projectile to his priority moves like seriously lol. Like only MK and perhaps Dedede can go through or Falco because he has own strong projectile game but this is melee not brawl so....

Controlling a match vs top tier character with Ganon.. mm.. You don't necessarily have to play a reactive game, I'm pretty sure the other characters need to react too because if they fail, they are in serious **** since Ganon's moves have a ton of knockback lol. It's seriously impossible to play a flawless game with a top tier character against Ganon. If an equally skilled Ganon play an equally skilled Top tier char, well ya the top tier char will most likely win a few more matches but it's definitely doable, they've got combos but so do I. One combo is all I need to take off a stock lol.

@PKM: Well I'm certainly trying to up my defenses right now, i think I was recently doing it unconsciously and I am trying to be more unpredictable, it's tough and it obviously takes much practice. Breaking habits is the toughest thing in smash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Breaking habits is the toughest thing in smash.

This this a thousand times this.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I find this interesting.

 

[cubaisdeath]

"He just blocked my N-Air shine...I should do it again!"

I fall victim to that all too often.

but I love nair shines lol

 

[pockyD]

I make statements with proof when I want to. What I said above wasn't a concrete factual statement, I said "IMO" meaning I have empirical results to form my own opinion.

but the problem is, nobody cares about your 'opinion'... just like nobody would care about mine or his 'opinion' either

this isn't a poll, it's a discussion - the reasons for your conclusion are as or more important than the conclusion itself

 

[CluelessBTD]

Breaking habits is the toughest thing in smash.

I don't think it is if you have the right method. It takes time though. I find that if I go a few weeks without playing, my style changes dramatically for the better. Rather than doing the same old crap, I start thinking and being more creative...until that turns into more habits

 

[Divinokage]

I don't think it is if you have the right method. It takes time though. I find that if I go a few weeks without playing, my style changes dramatically for the better. Rather than doing the same old crap, I start thinking and being more creative...until that turns into more habits

So you were saying? lol. If I know your habits like let's say the typical Ganon player that always jumps (This applies to me too), I can definitely wait for your jump and then punish you with my own Fair, followed up by combos maybe. See where I'm going? lol.

Instead you MUST mix it up and you have to know what works and what doesn't. It's really like rock, paper, scissors.. for me anyway. One move will always out prioritize other move with the right timing. Like the jab, if I know the fox is going for multiple nair, ill just jab him away to keep safe. And then a whole new game begins, what will come? Another Nair... if I know he's going to (Habits) then ya ill just jab again lol. Mixing it up is what it's all about. =)

Edit: Now that I think about it, this game is really about taking the opportunity.

 

[x After Dawn x]

but the problem is, nobody cares about your 'opinion'... just like nobody would care about mine or his 'opinion' either

this isn't a poll, it's a discussion - the reasons for your conclusion are as or more important than the conclusion itself

I hope you realize the entire tier list is built upon opinion.

 

[pockyD]

ambiguous rambling

you must be trolling because nobody in the melee boards could be this stupid

why you would troll this way instead of doing something interesting like claiming ness is top tier, i have no idea but to each their own

 

[Masmasher@]

I think from the middle to the high is definetely prone to change the top could switch by only increments.