Official MBR Tier List

[joeplicate]

I never said they weren't, dog, calm down


but I think that one tournament where one character beat another in finals is reading a bit too much into it

 

[pockyD]

tournament placements speak for themselves; there's no need to make a subjective list based on exclusively objective data

 

[x After Dawn x]

i agree with this guy

and puff sucks

but if its a mango puff

GG

and scar its because those falcons suck at the puff match up

let darc and hbox play SS ... god dam jeff would **** tap

love you bro <3

 

[Hax]

this is without a doubt NOT the final tier list. peach needs to go down, jiggs up (4th or 5th), samus downnnn, ganon up, etc. also mewtwo ain't 3rd worst.

this game is too complicated to have a "final" tier list let alone numerical rankings for each character

 

[KirbyKaze]

An easy example is the Ganon argument. I think he has potential to move up simply because now in terms of higher placings Ganon has placed higher than Doc and about as well as Samus (Hugs). It's only one Ganon though, and Doc simply isn't as popular anymore. There are a few new Samus players that could keep her competitive as well. I also think that Sheik isn't as bad as Falco is against Ganon but that just may be Kage bias, both are pretty bad matchups.

I am 100% convinced Sheik is harder than Falco.

 

[x After Dawn x]

this is without a doubt NOT the final tier list. peach needs to go down, jiggs up (4th or 5th)

lmao this made me chuckle, peach is fine (she'd go up, not down) and jiggs is not better than falco LOL

 

[pockyD]

explain why peach would go up

 

[Me14k]

I think the video linked for Taj's mewtwo should be a video of taj winning...


Peach while a great character gets ***** by the common characters (fox, marth, sheik)..peach fails at the tourney scene so peach should not be moved up. Same goes for falco, which gets ***** my marth, sheik, peach. Same goes for falcon which gets ***** by sheik, marth (Arguable), fox, falco.

all in all, young link should be top tier.

 

[Divinokage]

I am 100% convinced Sheik is harder than Falco.

Hmm.. I don't know.. so now I played M2k's sheik in a tournament set and Shiz's falco as well. I think for me anyway Falco is harder but it could just be my own bias, I don't know. M2k beat me because obviously he's better than me and his spacing is monstrous, like wtf lol. Though after this experience if I can get even better spacing somehow, I believe Sheik would be easier since Ganon vs Sheik seems to me anyway all about spacing.

And well if you take tournament placing into account. So far I think I had placed 5th or 4th quite often and in doubles I usually get 2nd or even 1st now these days. Ganon overall in doubles is really awesome with like Falcon, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs or Peach. It's like almost a guaranteed Top 3 placing with a team like that and I have proven it over and over. And as for singles, well at least my ganon is very consistent regardless of my brackets. If I can get 5th again at Genesis for example then holy **** Ganon for higher for sure. Ganon 2v2 = Definitely Top tier imo and in singles High tier which is why overall I say he should move up.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I didn't say Peach would go up, I said if anything, she's more likely to go up than down (and when I mean that, I mean up into top tier, but still at 5th). The only person who should have the potential of taking Peach's spot would be Jiggs, but saying Jiggs should take Falco's spot and be top tier is just wishful thinking.

 

[EC_Joey]

Ganon overall in doubles is really awesome with like Falcon, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs or Peach.

You forgot double Ganon.

 

[Divinokage]

lol Double Ganon is not bad but definitely not a winning team speaking realistically. Though I did win a teams MM with Rockcrock... mmm.. maybe it is top tier? lol.

 

[cykofox]

kage = Arnold gibberish?

and to arc natural..doc was never popular.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

CykoFox, give me some hint to find the flash animation your avatar is from.
I've seen it before, but I forgot what it's called or where to find it.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol Double Ganon is not bad but definitely not a winning team speaking realistically. Though I did win a teams MM with Rockcrock... mmm.. maybe it is top tier? lol.

Ganon is a warrior!

 

[cykofox]

CykoFox, give me some hint to find the flash animation your avatar is from.
I've seen it before, but I forgot what it's called or where to find it.

OMG IT FEELS SO GOOD AROUND MA **** GURL...

skeet

 

[Vulcan55]

Isn't that Stamper's piece for the SF collab (That is never coming out, btw) that got leaked onto the nets?

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

EDIT: nvm, found it

I was thinking more like a title or something I could google and find it. I remember most of what happens in it, I just don't know how to find the actual thing.

 

[Vts]

jack you are the biggest **** ever lol

btw if you don't know who is avatar is, well its me at their tri-weekly lol.

 

[Mogwai]

Same goes for falco, which gets ***** my marth, sheik, peach.

i beg to differ. Falco gets ***** by no one in the same way that Peach and Falcon get *****. I'd also say that none of those matchups are worse than even. the biggest thing holding Falco back is that Fox is a better version of him and hence, better players migrate to Fox.

 

[x After Dawn x]

i beg to differ. Falco gets ***** by no one in the same way that Peach and Falcon get *****. I'd also say that none of those matchups are worse than even. the biggest thing holding Falco back is that Fox is a better version of him and hence, better players migrate to Fox.

Basically what you said lol, it's not worth playing Falco when you have such good control of the stage and then an fsmash or aerial at high percent kills you because your up B distance is like 0. Like, I'm pretty sure if Falco had Fox's dash speed and had the same benefits of Fox's recovery (cough cough, DISTANCE), he could have the potential of being a 9.9. =/

 

[otg]

The biggest thing holding Falco back is HIS RECOVERY and that Fox is a better version of him and hence, better players migrate to Fox.

Fixed/added*

 

[Mogwai]

Falco's recovery is not terrible and certainly doesn't hold him back as much as the fact that better players would rather have their shine kill @ 0, a good dash dance game, consistent grab combos, and the best smash in the game. All that being said, Falco's still nasty as hell and is better than the rest of the cast, he's just not Fawks.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falco's recovery is not terrible and certainly doesn't hold him back as much as the fact that better players would rather have their shine kill @ 0, a good dash dance game, consistent grab combos, and the best smash in the game. All that being said, Falco's still nasty as hell and is better than the rest of the cast, he's just not Fawks.

If Falco had a better dash speed, his grab's downsides would be overshadowed by its benefits. And his smashes aren't that bad, really; downsmash is a great edgeguard and a surprisingly fast, and often unpredictable hit that hits quite well; side smash is amazingly powerful, and probably his best smash; and his upsmash is weak but it can combo quite well sometimes, and it works well for pillaring.

 

[Mogwai]

I'm not arguing that Falco's smashes are bad, I'm arguing that Fox's usmash is unrealistically good and by far and away the best smash in the game and is on the list of reasons people would rather play Fox than Falco.

Falco's grabs are already fine because Falco forces people into shield very well. Upped dash speed would obviously help, but the biggest problem with his grab right now is that none of his throws legitimately combo. If his uthrow were Fox's uthrow, we wouldn't even be discussing non-spacies for top tier.

 

[otg]

It's obvious Falco is beast as hell. But he has one of the worst recoveries in the game, I don't see how you can say otherwise. On stage he is a beast and if played right he could be untouchable. But you can't deny that his ability to get gimped at anytime by anyone is his biggest limiting factor and it's what makes some of his matchups against the other top tiers go from ****, to evenish.

 

[pockyD]

he's just saying it's simply not as big a factor as it is for other characters due to falco's impressive on-stage control (and consequently, ability to avoid being easily tossed off)

there's not some arbitrary chart where, say, combos, camping ability, and recovery are all rated, then weighted equally; you have to evaluate how they fit into the character's playstyle

 

[Mogwai]

It's obvious Falco is beast as hell. But he has one of the worst recoveries in the game, I don't see how you can say otherwise. On stage he is a beast and if played right he could be untouchable. But you can't deny that his ability to get gimped at anytime by anyone is his biggest limiting factor and it's what makes some of his matchups against the other top tiers go from ****, to evenish.

yes I can. at the top level of play, Fox is roughly equally gimpable, and when Fox is pretty unanimously considered the best in the game, I don't really see how this can be considered a huge limiting factor.

 

[Che_Lab]

lol no Fox is not equally gimpable for falco.
1. fox's firefox hits you when you get near it, falco's doesn't.
2. Fox's up-B covers alot more distance.
3. People aren't afraid of falco near the edge, but with fox you have to put into consideration a possible shinespike.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The greater distance of Firefox makes a huge difference because most of the time Falco is off the ledge, he only has one way to even make it back at all, whereas Fox has the choice between several different angles.

 

[HT F8]

3. People aren't afraid of falco near the edge, but with fox you have to put into consideration a possible shinespike.

Dair? Everything else you said is right on target tho. ^_^

yes I can. at the top level of play, Fox is roughly equally gimpable, and when Fox is pretty unanimously considered the best in the game, I don't really see how this can be considered a huge limiting factor.

On some stages he can't even recover when he's onscreen, not even in the bubble.

 

[Mogwai]

1 only matters if you can't space your gimp attack
2 only matters if they don't leave the stage to kill you
3 only matters if they fail to kill you

in other words, if they commonly **** up, yes, Fox is a lot better at getting back to the stage. if they don't, you're dead either way. so as people start to get legitimately really good at the game, all these points become more and more moot and you start to realize that this is not why Falco has fallen from grace.



@F8 iS RiPPiN, that has little to do with getting gimped and more to do with dying to strong hits or recovering after you jump out to kill them.

to be clear, I'm not saying that Fox's recovery isn't better than Falco's, I'm saying that the notion that Fox is harder to gimp is only barely true or relevant.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

@Mog: 2 is not true. Fox can be out of safe reach for off stage edge guarding and still make it back. Falco has no such luxuries.

 

[Mogwai]

vs. top tiers, he cannot get lower than they can come to kill him. if he's really far out, we're probably no longer talking about the "gimps" which I've been arguing about since OTG's post.

Fox's recovery is noticeably better, but is a lot lower on the list of reasons to play Fox over Falco than most people seem to think (everyone seems to think this is the main reason why Fox is better... IT'S NOT!)

 

[otg]

People shouldn't choose Fox over Falco because he has a better recovery, that isn't what I'm saying. All I'm saying is, Falco's biggest flaw is his recovery. His speed isn't that big a deal because he controls so much space with lasers, he has tons of KO moves, combos like a monster, etc etc. I don't see how you can disagree with me on that.

My original statement was NOT comparing Fox to Falco, you did that Wes. Falco is arguably the best character on stage, and has the 3rd worst recovery. Bam, no comparison to Fox necessary, because if we want to go there, there are a lot of reasons to play him over Falco.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's significantly greater movement power and pistol gives him roughly the same control Falco gets in all of his matchups. The only characters where Fox is comparatively less-advantaged in terms of onstage control (in a significant way) are Captain Falcon, Ganon, and... yeah, that's basically all who come to mind. I really do think Sheik's camping game is actually better against Falco than it is against Fox, mostly because there's more time in between his shots, his jumps are slower, and his platform movement and ground movement isn't nearly as ridiculous.

I don't know about other characters much though. I'm hesitant to say Fox's onstage control is better versus a lot of characters, and that Falco's gun is overhyped and not as good as it used to be, but then I'm afraid people will tell me I'm wrong and try to hunt me down and kill me for suggesting such blasphemy so I'm not going to say anything about it.

 

[Mogwai]

People shouldn't choose Fox over Falco because he has a better recovery, that isn't what I'm saying. All I'm saying is, Falco's biggest flaw is his recovery. His speed isn't that big a deal because he controls so much space with lasers, he has tons of KO moves, combos like a monster, etc etc. I don't see how you can disagree with me on that.

My original statement was NOT comparing Fox to Falco, you did that Wes. Falco is arguably the best character on stage, and has the 3rd worst recovery. Bam, no comparison to Fox necessary, because if we want to go there, there are a lot of reasons to play him over Falco.

You stated Falco's biggest limiting factor was getting gimped, MAX (I can use your real name for effect too), and I was pointing out that the best character in the game has the same limiting factor, so it's silly to say that's why he is where he is.

Anyway, fine, let's leave Fox out of it. I'd argue that Falco has FAR from the 3rd worst recovery in the game. Please tell me how all but 2 of the following characters have better recoveries than Falco:

Doc
Roy
Zelda
Ness
Luigi
Captain Falcon
DK
Bowser

Falco at least has options and low landing lag. His recovery is far from as terrible as the "FALCO'S RECOVERY SUCKS BALLS" camp would like to admit.

Once we're done ignoring fox, let's go back again to my whole point that Fox drawing better players away from Falco is a huge part of the reason people have moved Falco into the "clearly not as good as Sheik, Marth and Fox" section of their brains rather than seeing him for the ****ing monster that he is. It's really easy to ignore Falco when everyone who gets halfway decent with him moves over to playing the best character in the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Recovery in Melee on the whole is underpowered lol.

 

[otg]

You stated Falco's biggest limiting factor was getting gimped, MAX (I can use your real name for effect too), and I was pointing out that the best character in the game has the same limiting factor, so it's silly to say that's why he is where he is.

Anyway, fine, let's leave Fox out of it. I'd argue that Falco has FAR from the 3rd worst recovery in the game. Please tell me how all but 2 of the following characters have better recoveries than Falco:

Doc
Roy
Zelda
Ness
Luigi
Captain Falcon
DK
Bowser

Falco at least has options and low landing lag. His recovery is far from as terrible as the "FALCO'S RECOVERY SUCKS BALLS" camp would like to admit.

Once we're done ignoring fox, let's go back again to my whole point that Fox drawing better players away from Falco is a huge part of the reason people have moved Falco into the "clearly not as good as Sheik, Marth and Fox" section of their brains rather than seeing him for the ****ing monster that he is. It's really easy to ignore Falco when everyone who gets halfway decent with him moves over to playing the best character in the game.

I wasn't using your first name to be a d!ck, I for the most part like referring to smashers by their real name, that's just me. What I stated is my opinion, you can disagree if you want. I also agree that, Falco's metagame progress has been limited by the increased use of Fox, no argument there.

Let's go through this list shall we?

-Doc and Roy CLEARLY have worse recoveries than Roy. <---- *FALCO* EDIT: lmao, I'm ********
-Zelda I can't comment on, don't know much about her (although I though Sheik's was technically worse?).
-Ness's recovery, while bad, travels more distance with his huge DJ. His UpB can be interrupted and has a lot of landing lag, but it travels the same distance of a Fox's UpB, and of course he can DJ + airdodge instead of UpBing if he's close enough which is definitely good for him.
-Luigi, misfire+tornado == better than Falco. Requires luck and good button mashing abilities, but he in theory can travel more distance. If he has to use his upB he's screwed. Better than Falco, not by much.
-Captain Falcon, awful recovery, can travel more distance with Falco, platforms assist his upB with ledgecancelling, and he's got Falcon kick recovery which helps but isn't useful all the time. Around as bad as Falcos, but still IMO a lil better.
-DK, invincibility frames and priority? Has a pretty big sweetspot range, travels a pretty large horizontal distance. His biggest problem is getting spiked. Still, IMO better than Falcos, as he can defend himself atleast as he recovers.
-Bowser, can't comment, don't know to much about him... and besides **** Bowser.

Falco could be argued as the best on stage character, because even with better usage of platforms and powershielding to stop lasers, Falco players will just get smarter with placing them. this is all in my scrubby opinion, I don't expect to sway anyones mind anytime soon.

 

[pockyD]

-Doc and Roy CLEARLY have worse recoveries than Roy.

assume you meant worse than falco...

doc's recovery is one of the hardest to edgeguard in the game for a lot of characters, between his nice pill angle and absurd magnet hands (i don't find the tornado very relevant, though the cape covering projectile control and overly "spaced" moves is nice)

both doc and falco are completely toast without their double jumps, but doc uses his dj for self preservation much better (floatiness lets him use aerials, controlling pill angles, varying timing on his super high priority up-b)

yeah roy kinda sucks

-Zelda I can't comment on, don't know much about her (although I though Sheik's was technically worse?).
-Ness's recovery, while bad, travels more distance with his huge DJ. His UpB can be interrupted and has a lot of landing lag, but it travels the same distance of a Fox's UpB, and of course he can DJ + airdodge instead of UpBing if he's close enough which is definitely good for him.
-Luigi, misfire+tornado == better than Falco. Requires luck and good button mashing abilities, but he in theory can travel more distance. If he has to use his upB he's screwed. Better than Falco, not by much.
-Captain Falcon, awful recovery, can travel more distance with Falco, platforms assist his upB with ledgecancelling, and he's got Falcon kick recovery which helps but isn't useful all the time. Around as bad as Falcos, but still IMO a lil better.

The shortcoming with all of these is incredible slowness and transparency; falco's recovery forces a quick and proper response, but with these guys, you can stand there all day and wait for them to come straight into you, as they have little to no mix-up

sheik's recovery is waaay better than zelda's... good midair coverage (fair, bair, nair, even needles), good flexibility on the up-b (multiple chances to grab the edge, an absurd number of angles, invincibility), and a much larger double jump (which is actually an oft-ignored element of falco's recovery)

-DK, invincibility frames and priority? Has a pretty big sweetspot range, travels a pretty large horizontal distance. His biggest problem is getting spiked. Still, IMO better than Falcos, as he can defend himself atleast as he recovers.

dk's main edge is, quite simply, that people are unfamiliar with how to edgeguard him - knowing his hitboxes, etc

i would say his recovery has just as much vulnerability, if not more, than falco's (though dk tends to have more trouble with ranged attacks while falco suffers more to high-priority moves), and it is clearly less flexible

-Bowser, can't comment, don't know to much about him... and besides **** Bowser.

bowser's recovery is rather awful... the thing that he and DK have is just extreme fatness to keep from getting hit off stage to begin with