Official MBR Tier List

[otg]

Word thanks for clearing some stuff up. I can see how Falco's speedy recovery could give him a slight edge in that it requires a fast response, but the other characters in theory can travel more distance and at least for some of them, aren't gimped at as low percents.

While I agree that Doc is hard to edgeguard, he really can't travel much distance. He needs to DI really well and save his second jump to even think about touching the stage, his tornado can be used for stalling, but is also easily intercepted due to wind down lag, and his pils provide a nice net for him to recover, a large amount of moves hit right through them and will just smack Doc out. He's still the 2nd worst recovery IMO.

I think what would be cool, is if we updated the old recovery tier list, which can be found here:

tadaaaa

It's over two years old, and definitely needs to be updated. But this seems like it would be a cool project. Most of the characters are in the right tier, minus a few outliers here and there.

 

[pockyD]

oh yeah, for someone with 5 or 6 or whatever jumps, kirby's recovery is pretty awful

 

[x After Dawn x]

at the top level of play, Fox is roughly equally gimpable

That is completely wrong.

 

[otg]

oh yeah, for someone with 5 or 6 or whatever jumps, kirby's recovery is pretty awful

Very true, still better than Falco's though.

 

[ArcNatural]

As for the Jiggs argument, a big issue is the fact that unless I'm mistaken Falcon has never won a huge tournament (big prizes, oos players, top 10 players) except for way back when I think Isai beat Ken once in Moast or something. Jiggly? More than once. You can argue the players all you want, but simply put the best Falcon players have not broken through to do what Mango has done.

I can also flip this, I do not think Mango(or any other top 5 player) could win a huge tournament (same criteria) with Falcon alone. I could see him possibly doing it with counterpicks (characters and stages) but not with just Falcon. That's my 2 cents. Until Falcon or Peach can actually break through and win a huge tournament what makes you think they can?

I'm really surprised no one has tried to refute this. No one wants to touch this with a stick? Pretty please?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why touch it? You're right lol.

Peach and Falcon haven't won anything in forever. I think I mentioned that earlier, a lot earlier, but then the responses were mostly "Mango's just that much better than everyone" or "Everyone was playing bad at Pound 3" or "Generic Drama Creating Internet Device" or even "Jigglypuff is gay" and then nothing useful came of it.

In terms of both theoretical crap and tournament results, I think Jigglypuff is at least better than Peach. I see Peach not as bad or anything, but Jigglypuff doesn't have a lot of her weaknesses, she's got superior punishment, arguably superior KO power, better edgeguarding, and more overall range. As an added bonus, Fox's shine (and other moves, but we'll go with Fox shine as a big example) doesn't auto combo her either, so she's more likely to live through more individual hits (although Peach will live to a higher percent often).

 

[Divinokage]

Really? Darkrain won Tipped Off 4, owned. =P

 

[ArcNatural]

Sorry Kage, tipped off 4 doesn't meet the criteria. Look at who else was there. You could of said the same thing about SS winning everything on the west coast if Mango wasn't there. Because Mango currently is the only true top player there (I consider top players ones who travel and still place well). Honestly after the top 4 players (Mango, M2k, PC, DSW) I think the list fluctuates a lot. But if you don't see at least 2 of those names there you can't really consider it a tournament like I'm talking about.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mew2King, Mango, Cort, PC Chris, DaShizWiz, Jman, Cactuar, SS, Chu, Azen and many other notables were missing from Tipped Off 4.

 

[pockyD]

IIRC, eddie won an MLG orlando with some wacky falcon/ganon combo (someone can correct me if i'm remembering wrong, as this was even before my time)

By your "criteria", how many "major" tournaments have even happened in the past few years?
From 2007 through now
Cat3 - M2K - Marth
MLG NY - KDJ - Sheik
Pound2 - Chu - IC
FCD - M2K - Marth
OC3 - PC - Fox ?
SCC - M2K - Marth
VLS - Azen - Marth
Pound3 - Mango - Jigglypuff (and link!)
Everything after that - M2K or Mango, using whoever they **** well please

The ONLY characters not already a top tier to win a tournament were jigglypuff and ICs; setting aside the fact that mango could probably win almost as much using non-jiggly, I don't hear much of anybody clamoring for the ICs to pass up falcon, peach, et al, even though they HAVE won a tournament where the others have failed... including not only peach/falcon, but falco

Using the 'who won a tournament' thing is rather preposterous when the entire tournament scene is dominated by two players, each of who would wreck any tournament the other one isn't at by using at least 2-3 different characters

 

[The Bird]

Kinda surprised by Samus's place, probably because I watch to much Dphanna vids, but how exactly do you keep up with his warping move? (Forgot the technical name.)

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

his = samus or his = phanna? because phanna's a girl
and you have to drop a bomb first, it kinda broadcasts itself way in advance that way
SWD has nothing to do in Samus' tier placement b/c it's a generally worthless move. the best samus player in the country (HugS) has literally never done it once, and places way higher than all other samus players in national tournaments
by which I mean he actually places, while the rest of us might squeek out a 17th once in a while

 

[Scidadle]

What about weegi eh?

HE WINS EEEEVERYTHING

 

[KAOSTAR]

his = samus or his = phanna? because phanna's a girl
and you have to drop a bomb first, it kinda broadcasts itself way in advance that way
SWD has nothing to do in Samus' tier placement b/c it's a generally worthless move. the best samus player in the country (HugS) has literally never done it once, and places way higher than all other samus players in national tournaments
by which I mean he actually places, while the rest of us might squeek out a 17th once in a while

At least it looks cool.

I got nothin

 

[Pink Reaper]

his = samus or his = phanna? because phanna's a girl

lolwtfnoheisadude

 

[Vts]

I still say that IC stand good chance of winning tournaments more so than peach and falco

0-death chain grabs on 80% of the cast, great recovery, there is 2 of them, desyncs are amazing at catching people and approaching.

harder matches ups with lower tier characters and have better match ups vs higher tier.

i have yet to see a good falco win at a 100+ people tournament.

peach is an odd ball easy to learn but hard to master and never seen her place top 3 before but i maybe wrong might have been before my time.

falco and peach both are deadly if played right, but i just don't see them ever winning tournaments.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I still say that IC stand good chance of winning tournaments more so than peach and falco

0-death chain grabs on 80% of the cast, great recovery, there is 2 of them, desyncs are amazing at catching people and approaching.

harder matches ups with lower tier characters and have better match ups vs higher tier.

i have yet to see a good falco win at a 100+ people tournament.

peach is an odd ball easy to learn but hard to master and never seen her place top 3 before but i maybe wrong might have been before my time.

falco and peach both are deadly if played right, but i just don't see them ever winning tournaments.

lol so I guess they got beat by the IC player.

 

[Vts]

lol so I guess they got beat by the IC player.

pfft i wish peach is IC hardest match up and samus is next.

idk how wobbles does it i want to learn from him how to though.

falco is basicly grabbed he is dead, about 3 chain grabs i know of can be used on him to make sure he takes damage and doesn't get away.

 

[Tero.]

Fox destroys ICs.

 

[Mogwai]

ICs have a lot of matchups that seem really really bad, I have no idea how good ICs manage to compete with them

 

[Tero.]

ICs have a lot of matchups that seem really really bad, I have no idea how good ICs manage to compete with them

Because there aren't many people who actually know the IC Match-up.
If you don't know it your going to get *****.

 

[Mogwai]

yea, but Chu still demolishes Foxes and honestly makes all of the bad matchups other than Marth look like they're even for ICs at worst...

 

[Tero.]

yea, but Chu still demolishes Foxes and honestly makes all of the bad matchups other than Marth look like they're even for ICs at worst...

Well that's Chu.
You can't equate Chu with normal ICs :D

 

[Geist]

To derail from the IC conversation for a sec...
where did this whole "phanna is a chick" thing come from anyways? I heard a vid of his where he was commentating, and I'll say this: Either Phanna's a guy, or phanna is incredibly butch.

 

['Fro]

...Samus does not have the advantage vs Peach.

Been away from the thread, but I felt I have to clarify what I said.

I just feel that Samus is not disadavantaged against Peach. I would much rather fight Peach than Sheik or Marth. I don't feel it's bad for Samus at all.

 

[Tero.]

Been away from the thread, but I felt I have to clarify what I said.

I just feel that Samus is not disadavantaged against Peach. I would much rather fight Peach than Sheik or Marth. I don't feel it's bad for Samus at all.

Well that's because Sheik and Marth **** Samus.

 

[Binx]

ICs have a lot of matchups that seem really really bad, I have no idea how good ICs manage to compete with them

We play against people who aren't patient enough to play the match up properly.

Because there aren't many people who actually know the IC Match-up.
If you don't know it your going to get *****.

Yuppers

yea, but Chu still demolishes Foxes and honestly makes all of the bad matchups other than Marth look like they're even for ICs at worst...

Yeah I don't know how he does it vs Fox who has a billion shield safe moves, gimps nana from anywhere after one hit safely, and has more range and speed...

 

['Fro]

Well that's because Sheik and Marth **** Samus.

The point being made is that it's, IMO, her second best match-up within the top and high tiers after ICs, which isn't saying much. Some would say Fox or Falco, but they have speed and laser camping respectively that severely hinder Samus. Peach at least is slow, and it devolves into a slow-motion spacing and shooting/tossing match-up.

 

[Binx]

Samus doesn't have any good match ups with the top characters EXCEPT ICs

Everyone ***** Samus

 

[Rat]

Poor Samus =(

 

[ArcNatural]

IIRC, eddie won an MLG orlando with some wacky falcon/ganon combo (someone can correct me if i'm remembering wrong, as this was even before my time)

By your "criteria", how many "major" tournaments have even happened in the past few years?
From 2007 through now
Cat3 - M2K - Marth
MLG NY - KDJ - Sheik
Pound2 - Chu - IC
FCD - M2K - Marth
OC3 - PC - Fox ?
SCC - M2K - Marth
VLS - Azen - Marth
Pound3 - Mango - Jigglypuff (and link!)
Everything after that - M2K or Mango, using whoever they **** well please

The ONLY characters not already a top tier to win a tournament were jigglypuff and ICs; setting aside the fact that mango could probably win almost as much using non-jiggly, I don't hear much of anybody clamoring for the ICs to pass up falcon, peach, et al, even though they HAVE won a tournament where the others have failed... including not only peach/falcon, but falco

Using the 'who won a tournament' thing is rather preposterous when the entire tournament scene is dominated by two players, each of who would wreck any tournament the other one isn't at by using at least 2-3 different characters

I understand this argument. But like I said, I do not think any of these guys could win a tournament all Falcon providing at least 3-4 of the others are present. That's the point I'm making. It doesn't matter which player does it. I just don't think Falcon or Peach is capable of winning a tournament at the current level. When one does I'll easily refute my point.

I guess their position makes sense since overall Falcon and Peach place higher than normal competitive Jigglies save a few. But it's an interesting situation as even though they place higher I don't find them capable of winning the whole thing. Chu Dat is an interesting analogy, as he does usually place high and has won once (I guess you can claim Mango to be one as well except that he has won more times). I just find the situation odd since again, I do not feel like Falcon or Peach is capable of winning a large scale tournament unless they counterpicked with characters as well.

 

[pockyD]

I understand this argument. But like I said, I do not think any of these guys could win a tournament all Falcon providing at least 3-4 of the others are present. That's the point I'm making. It doesn't matter which player does it. I just don't think Falcon or Peach is capable of winning a tournament at the current level. When one does I'll easily refute my point.

I guess their position makes sense since overall Falcon and Peach place higher than normal competitive Jigglies save a few. But it's an interesting situation as even though they place higher I don't find them capable of winning the whole thing. Chu Dat is an interesting analogy, as he does usually place high and has won once (I guess you can claim Mango to be one as well except that he has won more times). I just find the situation odd since again, I do not feel like Falcon or Peach is capable of winning a large scale tournament unless they counterpicked with characters as well.

I think people "understand" what you're saying, but it doesn't really carry any persuasive weight... for example, just because you don't think falcon or peach is capable of winning a tournament doesn't mean that I agree, and unless you can back up why you perceive their shortcomings to be so influential, there's no reason for others to see the light you're trying to shine

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its all about stocks. Falcons dont win because they have a hard time holding a stock at top level. They can **** offensively but get gimped and have super predictable recoveries.

 

[cykofox]

Its all about stocks. Falcons dont win because they have a hard time holding a stock at top level. They can **** offensively but get gimped and have super predictable recoveries.

orly?

Spoiler

tenchars

 

[JPOBS]

^^^

same reason why falcos dont win it all.

at top levels, you need to be able to do two things: gimp, and recover.
Falco and Falcon cant really do either.

Fox is the gimp king, marf never lets you back on, and sheik is sheik. peach can recover like a monter but again she relies on outplaying you too much.

Falco and falcon rely entirely on ****** your stocks and finishing at like 80+. When it comes to the best of the best, a falcon/falco only player wont win because they get gimped and have to rely on being flat out better.

 

[otg]

Falco will gimp you at low percent with enough Dairs, and Falcon ***** with enough Knees.
/endbroadgeneralizationhere

Seriously though, while it might be easier to gimp with Fox/Marth/Sheik, doesn't mean Falcon/Falco can't do it either.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Falco will gimp you at low percent with enough Dairs, and Falcon ***** with enough Knees.
/endbroadgeneralizationhere

Seriously though, while it might be easier to gimp with Fox/Marth/Sheik, doesn't mean Falcon/Falco can't do it either.

That's the thing

But also, Falcon and Falco have some **** combos. They'll bring you to 80% in an instant

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falco and Falco can have great stage control with their speed and their combos, but all of the built-up momentum (and damage to your opponent) is wasted away when you die easily. That's why Falco is so far apart from the top 3 chars in terms of the tier list ratings (Fox 9.9, Marth 9.9, Sheik 9.7, Falco only 9.2).

Also, Marth can gimp Falco and Falcon over easier than Fox. I would consider Marth the gimp king (or queen, I should say ) considering he doesn't really have to go out of his way to shine spike his opponent, but rather he can play defensively and edgeguard his opponent completely with the d-tilt, side tilt, fsmash, counter, side B gimp, and shield breaker, or offensively by jumping off the stage and performing a reverse dolphin slash, fair, bair, or dair.

 

[Vts]

That's the thing

But also, Falcon and Falco have some **** combos. They'll bring you to 80% in an instant

And IC

and peach but her move is just 1 lol

don't hold down you'll regret it.

falco just has an easier time getting his combos off since he has faster moves and lazer approach while falcon has dash dance and speed to catch u, both are very deadly but lazer is harder move around than someone rushing at you or moving back and forth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Peach needs people to make more mistakes than Falcon and Jigglypuff do to win games.