Official MBR Tier List

[TheManaLord]

Since when? As far as I'm concerned, pillaring = shield pressure, thus waveshining = pillaring.



What's wrong with that?

No to first point. Bad logic.....


And the thing that's wrong with it is the entire smash metagame for the VAST MAJORITY of people playing is based on NTSC and what the characters can do in that version. Considering this is the tier list for our version, you have your own.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

No to first point. Bad logic.....


And the thing that's wrong with it is the entire smash metagame for the VAST MAJORITY of people playing is based on NTSC and what the characters can do in that version. Considering this is the tier list for our version, you have your own.

Iono, but for the 2 years I've been on smashboards waveshining has always been synonymous with pillaring.

I don't even know how often I can say this- PAL is not vastly different from NTSC. Falco's abilities aren't modified AT ALL. The weak hitbox at the end of his dair does not change his metagame in the slightest.

 

[Mother]

Tell that too Doc's superior speed, projectile usage, recovery, AND of course his cape. =P

horrible recovery and bad aerial range, ganon ***** the **** out of him.

 

[HT F8]

Um... I'm pretty sure Falco's shinedair shield pressure is the real pillaring. Due to the fact that he's hitting you while going straight up and down... like a pillar?

Also some people call his shinedair combos pillaring... which I heard is incorrect... but yeah. Waveshining is not pillaring.

Iono, but for the 2 years I've been on smashboards waveshining has always been synonymous with pillaring.

I don't even know how often I can say this- PAL is not vastly different from NTSC. Falco's abilities aren't modified AT ALL. The weak hitbox at the end of his dair does not change his metagame in the slightest.

Meteor canceling Marth's dair. o.o

Sheik's d-throw... Link's UpB doesn't semispike...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

There's noticable differences.

 

[Binx]

Iono, but for the 2 years I've been on smashboards waveshining has always been synonymous with pillaring.

I don't even know how often I can say this- PAL is not vastly different from NTSC. Falco's abilities aren't modified AT ALL. The weak hitbox at the end of his dair does not change his metagame in the slightest.

The 3 years I've been on smashboards, no one has ever called waveshining pillaring. Pillaring has either incorrectly been referred to as dair shine combos, or correctly as dair shine shield pressure. Also people have known for a long time, like the entire time I've been on the boards that its not 100% safe vs almost any character. In fact forward has been stating the advantage of retreating drills on the shield without fast falling to escape pretty much any retaliation and baiting incorrect responses for a long time as well.

The simple fact is that Falco has SO many ways to vary his shield pressure you can't reliably escape it, he can double shine, retreating dair, dair grab, laser grab, laser shine drill away, laser laser, and all kinds of ridiculousness that is only punishable sometimes if you predict it or with consistent power shielding (which falco can still avoid by varying laser timing). Falco is an awesome character, and his match ups vs Marth and Sheik change a lot in PAL, even if HIS moves aren't changed much, for one Sheik's dthrow sends him further off the stage than forward throw would in ours and lower, so it reduces his recovery options, while at the same time making him harder to tech chase in your version because the grab sends them further out. Marth loses a TON of killing power from the loss of a real spike, but I guess he still has the chain throw on some levels into forward smash.

 

[otg]

horrible recovery and bad aerial range, ganon ***** the **** out of him.

Doc's attributes and ganon's attributes balance out. It's a pretty even matchup if Doc doesn't blindly approach into the ****.

 

[Divinokage]

Well then I'm sorry Unknown, I may of taken a bit too personally because everytime I see like Ganon is a **** character or you should change a character, in my head it's literally saying that I'm not good enough. And I don't like it! I want to accomplish the impossible, you have to understand that, the iron will or unrelenting will to never stop and keep going until you crush everybody!

 

[JonaDiaper]

kage you should up-b out of shield and you would **** everyone

 

[Grunt]

Ganon is really just a mix of Samus and Bowser.
...and ****.

 

[TheManaLord]

No... a mix of samus and bowser ... that just sounds awful. One of the worst things I've ever thought of...

 

[Taj278]

Well then I'm sorry Unknown, I may of taken a bit too personally because everytime I see like Ganon is a **** character or you should change a character, in my head it's literally saying that I'm not good enough. And I don't like it! I want to accomplish the impossible, you have to understand that, the iron will or unrelenting will to never stop and keep going until you crush everybody!

Then stop playing Ganon and play a real MAN'S character like Mewtwo.

Who's doing the impossible again?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon's more comparable to Peach than anyone else imo but whatever.

 

[Miggz]

horrible recovery and bad aerial range, ganon ***** the **** out of him.

Lol.

Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

 

[unknown522]

What's wrong with that?

lol, GG

lol my point has been proven by this man who knows a little more about the match up .

yeah, he has a lot of knowledge of the game. We talk in person about smash theory/facts, and ****.

Iono, but for the 2 years I've been on smashboards waveshining has always been synonymous with pillaring.

I don't even know how often I can say this- PAL is not vastly different from NTSC. Falco's abilities aren't modified AT ALL. The weak hitbox at the end of his dair does not change his metagame in the slightest.

Um... I'm pretty sure Falco's shinedair shield pressure is the real pillaring. Due to the fact that he's hitting you while going straight up and down... like a pillar?

Also some people call his shinedair combos pillaring... which I heard is incorrect... but yeah. Waveshining is not pillaring.



Meteor canceling Marth's dair. o.o

Sheik's d-throw... Link's UpB doesn't semispike...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

There's noticable differences.

said it for me. Falco has the "pillar combo", and then there's general pillaring on the shield, which gives you little/no window to counter them with most characters. There are a couple of exceptions.

The 3 years I've been on smashboards, no one has ever called waveshining pillaring. Pillaring has either incorrectly been referred to as dair shine combos, or correctly as dair shine shield pressure. Also people have known for a long time, like the entire time I've been on the boards that its not 100% safe vs almost any character. In fact forward has been stating the advantage of retreating drills on the shield without fast falling to escape pretty much any retaliation and baiting incorrect responses for a long time as well.

The simple fact is that Falco has SO many ways to vary his shield pressure you can't reliably escape it, he can double shine, retreating dair, dair grab, laser grab, laser shine drill away, laser laser, and all kinds of ridiculousness that is only punishable sometimes if you predict it or with consistent power shielding (which falco can still avoid by varying laser timing). Falco is an awesome character, and his match ups vs Marth and Sheik change a lot in PAL, even if HIS moves aren't changed much, for one Sheik's dthrow sends him further off the stage than forward throw would in ours and lower, so it reduces his recovery options, while at the same time making him harder to tech chase in your version because the grab sends them further out. Marth loses a TON of killing power from the loss of a real spike, but I guess he still has the chain throw on some levels into forward smash.

Doc's attributes and ganon's attributes balance out. It's a pretty even matchup if Doc doesn't blindly approach into the ****.

yeah, the matchup is close to even. Ganon's range and priority, and easy killing gives him the advantage though.

Well then I'm sorry Unknown, I may of taken a bit too personally because everytime I see like Ganon is a **** character or you should change a character, in my head it's literally saying that I'm not good enough. And I don't like it! I want to accomplish the impossible, you have to understand that, the iron will or unrelenting will to never stop and keep going until you crush everybody!

lol, don't worry about it. Sorry for offending you. I didn't intend to.

kage you should up-b out of shield and you would **** everyone

agreed. I see PKM do it all the time in succession.

 

[tdk_Samurai]

Ganon's more comparable to Peach than anyone else imo but whatever.

whatever happened to gannon being comparable to C falcon

edit: o wait, did you mean in terms of how good they are?

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, I mean in how they fight.

They both spend most of their time moving back or forward with Fair and then covering themselves with something. Or jumping back and Fairing more.

And they're both slow moving. And have horrible grab range.

Peach has really good extra stuff tacked on too (defensive options, mostly, but also more flexible offensive stuff) which makes her the better character. But a lot of their combat strategies are similar when you really think about it.

 

[philbobjoe]

I have to agree with you on that. They both rely less on combos then on strong one hit moves as well.

 

[Divinokage]

Win with mewtwo? but he doesn't exist so.. I don't know.

 

[Laijin]

Win with mewtwo? but he doesn't exist so.. I don't know.

lol. Losing to a mewtwo.
Thats just ******** all on its own.

 

[Divinokage]

lol. Losing to a mewtwo.
Thats just ******** all on its own.

Well I'm sure the Legendary Taj made many people lose to a mewtwo. =p

 

[JBM falcon08]

shadow claw 3 looks epic.

taj i will be at genesis, mm?

 

[Laijin]

Well I'm sure the Legendary Taj made many people lose to a mewtwo. =p

hm. true story.
If I ever meet him, i'll money match his M2 for a large sum of money.
IE. $20.
I also wanna MM bum and gimpyfish. :|

Edit: Are you guyz going to FAST 2?

 

[KevinM]

hm. true story.
If I ever meet him, i'll money match his M2 for a large sum of money.
IE. $20.
I also wanna MM bum and gimpyfish. :|

Edit: Are you guyz going to FAST 2?

Why would you MM Gimpyfish when DJ Nintendo's bowser is largely considered better and he's still playing Smash.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Meteor canceling Marth's dair. o.o

Sheik's d-throw... Link's UpB doesn't semispike...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

There's noticable differences.

Good job pointing out the obvious. My command of the english language is not perfect, but I think I'm correct in saying that vast =/= noticeable, am I right?

The 3 years I've been on smashboards, no one has ever called waveshining pillaring. Pillaring has either incorrectly been referred to as dair shine combos, or correctly as dair shine shield pressure. Also people have known for a long time, like the entire time I've been on the boards that its not 100% safe vs almost any character. In fact forward has been stating the advantage of retreating drills on the shield without fast falling to escape pretty much any retaliation and baiting incorrect responses for a long time as well.

The simple fact is that Falco has SO many ways to vary his shield pressure you can't reliably escape it, he can double shine, retreating dair, dair grab, laser grab, laser shine drill away, laser laser, and all kinds of ridiculousness that is only punishable sometimes if you predict it or with consistent power shielding (which falco can still avoid by varying laser timing). Falco is an awesome character, and his match ups vs Marth and Sheik change a lot in PAL, even if HIS moves aren't changed much, for one Sheik's dthrow sends him further off the stage than forward throw would in ours and lower, so it reduces his recovery options, while at the same time making him harder to tech chase in your version because the grab sends them further out. Marth loses a TON of killing power from the loss of a real spike, but I guess he still has the chain throw on some levels into forward smash.

OK. As I am obviously outruled, I'll accept that waveshining is not the same as pillaring. However, my point still stands. In my opinion, the chances of Falco hitting the opponent as a result of a pillar is about equal to the chances of Falco getting hit as a result of the pillar. If you'll look at the same match, there's another example with a nair shine pillar at 3:10.

Also, when Falco pillars a shield, no matter how he times his dair/shine there's at least 13 frames where the shield is not in stun somewhere. I did the math for waveshines, and there's only 11 frames of no shield stun. This means that waveshining is actually more effective than traditional pillaring.

Feel free to check my math:

1 Shine hits, Stun
2 hitlag, stun
3 hitlag, stun
4 hitlag, stun
5 hitlag, stun
6 start jump, stun
7 jump, stun
8 jump, stun
9 jump, stun
10 jump, stun
11 airborne, airdodge
12 AD lag
13 AD lag
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 AD lag
22 shine again

Also, I really think that simply wavedashing out of shield is a very powerful option for beating the pillar. They can't hurt your shield if you're already gone, and if they're still doing moves, you can just grab him and kill him because it's Falco.

Also, lack of a spike does not "lose a TON of killing power." Yes, Marth is even more dangerous at the ledge in NTSC due to how he has silly stuff like utilt to spike setups if the Falco fails DI. But talking in general kill potential, dair doesn't kill onstage and his edgeguarding doesn't rely on it, so I don't see where the "TON" of killing potential gets lost.

Also I wouldn't be so certain about Sheik's tech chasing being more difficult in PAL. Granted I haven't played Sheik extensively in NTSC (I used to be a Marth main when I was still living in the US), but I think the spacing after dthrow is pefect really. If they don't DI, you only have to walk a little to the side and you're out of range of the get up attack, which simplifies the process a lot if they don't tech. But maybe that's just me.

lol, GG
said it for me.

See above.

 

[skyheart]

Why would you MM Gimpyfish when DJ Nintendo's bowser is largely considered better and he's still playing Smash.

Because he want's a shot at winning the mm lol

 

[Mogwai]

Also, when Falco pillars a shield, no matter how he times his dair/shine there's at least 13 frames where the shield is not in stun somewhere. I did the math for waveshines, and there's only 11 frames of no shield stun. This means that waveshining is actually more effective than traditional pillaring.

Feel free to check my math:

1 Shine hits, Stun
2 hitlag, stun
3 hitlag, stun
4 hitlag, stun
5 hitlag, stun
6 start jump, stun
7 jump, stun
8 jump, stun
9 jump, stun
10 jump, stun
11 airborne, airdodge
12 AD lag
13 AD lag
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 AD lag
22 shine again

Well, I propose this pillar timing as a counter example.

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17 Start Dair
18
19
20
21 Dair Hits, HitLag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24 Hitlag
25 Hitlag
26 Hitlag
27 Hitlag
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Leaves alternating 9 and 10 frame gaps of vulnerability.

There's also more variance to when the dair can come out in a pillar which makes doing something out of shield a bit of a gamble about whether they throw the dair out earlier or later.

*shrugs* everyone should just multishine anyway, 2 frames of vulnerability ftw.

Because he want's a shot at winning the mm lol

Everytime someone uses an apostrophe for no reason, god kills either a kitten or puppy depending on that person's preference on animals.

 

[pockyD]

Why would you MM Gimpyfish when DJ Nintendo's bowser is largely considered better and he's still playing Smash.

kind of ridiculous logic

why would you ever MM anyone but mango and mew2king (and maybe chu) then, if you're only allowed to mm the perceived "best"?

 

[Taj278]

I think we're all missing the bigger picture here. Mewtwo needs to be out of bottom tier.

 

[Divinokage]

No! Ganon needs to be out of middle tier and be bottom high tier! =D Looks like we are on the same path, Taj. Which I totally respect, *salutes*

My goal is to make Ganon in a higher tier, and also I'm trying to win major tournaments with Ganon. So far my record was 5th place at Revival of Melee in which there were many many big names.

I've got 2 questions for you.. why do you play Mewtwo and do you want to MM at Genesis, Ganon/Mewtwo? =P

 

[TheManaLord]

that's the only match in the world I really want to see

I think kage would lose tbh

sorry kage

but after seeing taj play mewtwo in tournament matches are mango juice holy **** i'm a believer again.... not that I ever stopped, but when I see it more and more seriously the levels of how much m2 can own keep rising and rising

 

[Deleted member]

hm. true story.
If I ever meet him, i'll money match his M2 for a large sum of money.
IE. $20.
I also wanna MM bum and gimpyfish. :|

Edit: Are you guyz going to FAST 2?

you're from maryland, you can MM my zelda whenever you wish.

 

[Miggz]

I think we're all missing the bigger picture here. Mewtwo needs to be out of bottom tier.

Good luck with that dude.

I'm sure others feel the same way...

 

[Divinokage]

that's the only match in the world I really want to see

I think kage would lose tbh

sorry kage

but after seeing taj play mewtwo in tournament matches are mango juice holy **** i'm a believer again.... not that I ever stopped, but when I see it more and more seriously the levels of how much m2 can own keep rising and rising

He can win only if his spirit is strong enough. =) Or else.. he will get trampled by the warrior's might!

 

[JonaDiaper]

No! Ganon needs to be out of middle tier and be bottom high tier! =D Looks like we are on the same path, Taj. Which I totally respect, *salutes*

My goal is to make Ganon in a higher tier, and also I'm trying to win major tournaments with Ganon. So far my record was 5th place at Revival of Melee in which there were many many big names.

I've got 2 questions for you.. why do you play Mewtwo and do you want to MM at Genesis, Ganon/Mewtwo? =P

wait, you got 5th place?????

holy crap ganon for high tier

so it was mango, m2k, shiz, pc, kage?

daaamm kage

but what about magus?? i thought he was the best tho, but i havent seen a new video from him since like early 08

 

[Divinokage]

wait, you got 5th place?????

holy crap ganon for high tier

so it was mango, m2k, shiz, pc, kage?

daaamm kage

but what about magus?? i thought he was the best tho, but i havent seen a new video from him since like early 08

Add Chu in there because I tied 5th with him then ya, exactly. =P Well seeing that makes me feel so good. =p

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think we're all missing the bigger picture here. Mewtwo needs to be out of bottom tier.

This is so retardedly true. It needs to be said: Taj beats people with Mewtwo. GOOD PEOPLE. Mango's Puff >_> A character that can actually win, consistently against other good players on a high level does not deserve bottom tier. I mean, why the **** did Game & Watch move out of bottom tier when no one has done **** with him, but M2 is still there while Taj ***** everyone forever?

 

[Divinokage]

This is so retardedly true. It needs to be said: Taj beats people with Mewtwo. GOOD PEOPLE. Mango's Puff >_> A character that can actually win, consistently against other good players on a high level does not deserve bottom tier. I mean, why the **** did Game & Watch move out of bottom tier when no one has done **** with him, but M2 is still there while Taj ***** everyone forever?

Because everyone picks a high tier character to have a better chance to win, Mewtwo's options are probably limited. And also there are not enough extreme Mewtwo players out there to make a difference in the tier list.

 

[Pink Reaper]

The same can be said about Ganon then. Why should he go up if ONLY you have done well?

 

[otg]

The same can be said about Ganon then. Why should he go up if ONLY you have done well?

/ thread

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ewwww, otg, wtf is up with that little snake icon under your profile? Get that **** out of there, I don't want to be thinking you play brawl.