Official MBR Tier List

[victra♥]

I didn't mean that tiers absolutely have to get bigger as they go down. It just seems that the bottom and low tier characters are closer than the higher tiered characters. Accuracy is obviously preferred. Thus far I actually like Lumpy's ideas.

i think its mainly due to the fact that they aren't played as extensively and as commonly as the higher tiered characters to really make a more precise judgment.

 

[gm jack]

I'd say Amsah has fully exhausted any and all uses for Sheik's "moveset and speed" by now.

Amsah isn't the only good Sheik around. The point I was getting at is that even though Sheik's moveset is comparatively limited (in that we suddenly aren't likely to find entirely new uses for moves), she is simply fast enough with such a useful projectile that she will be able to keep up with the spacies, despite their progress.

TL;DR Sheik is so broken quick that she is hard to beat even for the spacies.

 

[Aesir]

I would love to hear reasoning for this. As I see it, Fox has more room to progress compared to Sheik and at the moment Fox definately> Sheik.

I dunno Sheik has less room for error than fox does, it could happen. Then again Fox does have a lot of tools to dispose of sheik.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I dunno Sheik has less room for error than fox does, it could happen

I think you mean more room for error and again, this applies to every character against Fox.

Amsah isn't the only good Sheik around. The point I was getting at is that even though Sheik's moveset is comparatively limited (in that we suddenly aren't likely to find entirely new uses for moves), she is simply fast enough with such a useful projectile that she will be able to keep up with the spacies, despite their progress.

TL;DR Sheik is so broken quick that she is hard to beat even for the spacies.

Except M2k, I'd say he is the only one. Tope and Plank and stuff don't come close.

And yeah, I get that Sheik's really good, but as you said, you're not going to implement much new in her metagame because there isn't anything, where as Fox still has a **** ton to apply. It can only become further in Fox's favour.

 

[BunBun]

i don't know puffs cause there really isn't a good MW puff

Sliq.
Chexr.


Where you at, Joey?

 

[Dark Sonic]

And yeah, I get that Sheik's really good, but as you said, you're not going to implement much new in her metagame because there isn't anything, where as Fox still has a **** ton to apply. It can only become further in Fox's favour.

What can Fox apply to the matchup that he doesn't do already? 0_o


It annoys me when people say things like this without explaining it. Fox players aren't coming up with any new strats or new uses for moves, they're just getting better at not messing up already known strats.

It'll move further in Fox's favor because Foxes won't mess up, not because of any newly applied techniques.

my 2 cents

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would love to hear reasoning for this. As I see it, Fox has more room to progress compared to Sheik and at the moment Fox definately> Sheik.

It's mostly got to do with Sheik's defensive game.

Sheik crouches. Because of the crouch, Fox can't do Nair approach because if he does he gets CC grabbed and reaction-based tech chased to death, or gimped. His only way to do Nair is low Nair, which is hardly a good approach, because of the lack of active hitbox. Bair is eliminated similarly.

If he wants to approach, he has to grab or use the Shine (risky -- she has better range than both of these) or Dair her. Now envision a Sheik that, in addition to crouching, SDIs the Dair away to avoid the Shine and other follows.

Now say that Sheik can SDI the Uair in U-throw Uair without needing to DI the throw, which means she can't be comboed very heavily by Fox's U-throw game.

The logical solution to such heavy defense is to just camp, since lasers are fantabulous, but Sheik isn't slow enough for that to win a matchup by itself, and she has a lot of potent range at her disposal too. She can also ledgecamp and use her own projectile if she's winning. Most importantly, her movement and stage presence enables her to catch Fox, whereas other characters with similar defensive potential (Peach, notably) cannot.

Now, I'm sure you think I'm completely insane for thinking that there could be players that can do this. But, really, when you look at some of the high level players existing, I don't think this is exactly absurd. People SDI the Uair in Fox U-throw Uair routinely, especially players with good reflexes like Mango. Axe's Pikachu also gets out of it with high frequency. For Dairs, S2J reputedly is good at SDIing the Dairs in Drillshines to avoid follow with Falcon. If we can combine these principles and apply them to a character with a really powerful crouch cancel game and ground game (Sheik tilts, D-smash, grab range) to nullify the Nair portion, we effectively shut off a lot of Fox's damage output.

In contrast, Sheik's combos on the fast fallers are based off reaction time -- nothing more. If Sheik develops accurate responses to the tech, non-tech options and routinely answers them accurately, she basically gets to play Solitaire with Fox's body because he can't get out on his own. He needs her to make a mistake. We already see large combos based off reaction time with Sheik now.

I'm not sure whether this actually will happen, or even if it could happen, because admittedly doing all of this together is a tall order. But it is a thought I had.

 

[MKOwnage]

I think some serious reconsideration needs to be done concerning Jigglypuff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sliq.
Chexr.


Where you at, Joey?

I said good puffs.

 

[Blistering Speed]

It's mostly got to do with Sheik's defensive game.

Sheik crouches. Because of the crouch, Fox can't do Nair approach because if he does he gets CC grabbed and reaction-based tech chased to death, or gimped. His only way to do Nair is low Nair, which is hardly a good approach, because of the lack of active hitbox. Bair is eliminated similarly.

If he wants to approach, he has to grab or use the Shine (risky -- she has better range than both of these) or Dair her. Now envision a Sheik that, in addition to crouching, SDIs the Dair away to avoid the Shine and other follows.

Now say that Sheik can SDI the Uair in U-throw Uair without needing to DI the throw, which means she can't be comboed very heavily by Fox's U-throw game.

The logical solution to such heavy defense is to just camp, since lasers are fantabulous, but Sheik isn't slow enough for that to win a matchup by itself, and she has a lot of potent range at her disposal too. She can also ledgecamp and use her own projectile if she's winning. Most importantly, her movement and stage presence enables her to catch Fox, whereas other characters with similar defensive potential (Peach, notably) cannot.

Now, I'm sure you think I'm completely insane for thinking that there could be players that can do this. But, really, when you look at some of the high level players existing, I don't think this is exactly absurd. People SDI the Uair in Fox U-throw Uair routinely, especially players with good reflexes like Mango. Axe's Pikachu also gets out of it with high frequency. For Dairs, S2J reputedly is good at SDIing the Dairs in Drillshines to avoid follow with Falcon. If we can combine these principles and apply them to a character with a really powerful crouch cancel game and ground game (Sheik tilts, D-smash, grab range) to nullify the Nair portion, we effectively shut off a lot of Fox's damage output.

In contrast, Sheik's combos on the fast fallers are based off reaction time -- nothing more. If Sheik develops accurate responses to the tech, non-tech options and routinely answers them accurately, she basically gets to play Solitaire with Fox's body because he can't get out on his own. He needs her to make a mistake. We already see large combos based off reaction time with Sheik now.

I'm not sure whether this actually will happen, or even if it could happen, because admittedly doing all of this together is a tall order. But it is a thought I had.

Yeah, it's a nice thought, but it's all wayyy too theoretical. SDIing D Airs on reaction? ****, I'll believe it when I see it. Going by this logic, it's applicable to a lot of characters with strong CC games, like Samus and Peach.

Plus, as you point out, Fox's fantabulous lasers force Sheik to approach and Sheik sucks at approaching. All those awesome defensive options like CC kinda melt away when she's forced to approach and then Fox can run in and N Air/D Air/whatever the F he likes. Fox's camping doesn't HAVE to be till you catch him, it just has to force Sheik into a bad position. Also, with the lead Sheik can ledgecamp but that's it. Needles aren't great with Fox's obscene mobility.

And yeah, Sheik has admittedly awesome punishment, but again, this is true of everyone high tier against Fox. It's all fine and good having that punishment but I think getting that grab/tilt is just going to continue to get harder and harder as Foxes get better at pressuring and being generally gay.

Sheik beating Fox would be a real mind**** though.

What can Fox apply to the matchup that he doesn't do already? 0_o


It annoys me when people say things like this without explaining it. Fox players aren't coming up with any new strats or new uses for moves, they're just getting better at not messing up already known strats.

It'll move further in Fox's favor because Foxes won't mess up, not because of any newly applied techniques.

my 2 cents

When I said Fox still has a **** ton to still apply, i didn't necessarily mean new stuff (though there's a lot of stuff, like multishines and shortened illusions, which need USE), but Fox is crazy untapped. Fox's (except Mango's new school Fox) don't know jack about shield pressure. Shine grabs, not blindly shine N Airing till you get CC ***** (though hell, even this isn't used half as much as it should), the aforementioned multishines, Fox should be able to get on your shield and stay around there till he forces you to **** up and then punish or until he gets through himself.

There's loads of other stuff that Fox's don't do right, like using platforms, smart camping and not just running into **** like OMG N AIR AND SHINE ARE QUICK AND COOL, but i cba going into it all at the moment.

 

[PEEF!]

I said good puffs.

Sliq is the 4th best jiggs in the US

 

[Dark Sonic]

SDIing D Airs on reaction?

Actually, that's not unreasonable. People already SDI out of a variety of combos, so what exactly stops them from extending this to individual moves? Fox's dair stays out long enough for people to react to being hit, people just either haven't thought about SDIing it or practiced it enough to make it a reflex to seeing his dair. It's not like they're SDIing your nair or bair or something, dair is a long moves with a lot of hits.

Fox's (except Mango's new school Fox) don't know jack about shield pressure. Shine grabs, not blindly shine N Airing till you get CC *****

Shine grabs are ****.

the aforementioned multishines, Fox should be able to get on your shield and stay around there till he forces you to **** up and then punish or until he gets through himself.

I have to strongly disagree with this notion. Multishines are far to fast for either player to react to. Even if the opponent gets hit by a particular shine, you won't be able to follow it up on reaction because....you're human and your reaction time is limited by that fact (plus, you're more than likely still multishining if you didn't expect that particular shine to hit). It's a decent pressure option simply because of how safe it is and it allows you to condition your opponent into making certain responses to a shine on shield, but it will never be the end all shield pressure option people think it is.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Na, multishines were something I think people should just throw in WITH shield pressure, ward away rolls and ****. I was talking about Fox's shield pressure as a whole when I said that last sentence.

 

[otg]

SDIing D Airs on reaction? ****, I'll believe it when I see it.

This already happens a lot. Come to tristate.

Sliq is the 4th best jiggs in the US

Definitely not, that goes to either Vanz or raistlin.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

yet again making judgements about **** yu know nothing about

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, it's a nice thought, but it's all wayyy too theoretical. SDIing D Airs on reaction? ****, I'll believe it when I see it. Going by this logic, it's applicable to a lot of characters with strong CC games, like Samus and Peach.

I cited people (well, one person, technically) that SDIs the Dair on reaction. 64 players SDI moves all the time because the DI in that game is different and escaping multi-hit moves and forcing certain wall-collisions requires the use of it. Don't tell me this crap is just theoretical gobbledy gook. There are enough people that do this for it to warrant observation.

Of course it's applicable to characters with strong CC games like Samus and Peach. I even noted Peach. The difference is that Samus doesn't have a super ridiculous punishment for Fox's mistakes that potentially 0-deaths him inescapable because of reaction time, and while Peach might have something like that somewhere in the future of faster FCs, dashing out of crouch, platform tech chase, and chain grabs, she's simply too slow to keep pace with him.

Plus, as you point out, Fox's fantabulous lasers force Sheik to approach and Sheik sucks at approaching. All those awesome defensive options like CC kinda melt away when she's forced to approach and then Fox can run in and N Air/D Air/whatever the F he likes. Fox's camping doesn't HAVE to be till you catch him, it just has to force Sheik into a bad position. Also, with the lead Sheik can ledgecamp but that's it. Needles aren't great with Fox's obscene mobility.

Lasers don't break crouch canceling or SDI and they don't stun. If Fox runs away from Sheik and lets her establish stage presence and work her range, Fox runs out of places to run quickly, has to approach because she's waiting to punish him if he does anything and then he winds up playing exactly the way she wants him to.

This is almost exactly how the matchup against a campy Fox plays out right now. The only difference is that I'm suggesting that Fox's ability to leap into action when he gets scared will get nerfed as more people take advantage of the fact that crouch > Nair, and SDI > multi-hit moves, and his Dair is inconveniently a multi-hit move.

And yeah, Sheik has admittedly awesome punishment, but again, this is true of everyone high tier against Fox. It's all fine and good having that punishment but I think getting that grab/tilt is just going to continue to get harder and harder as Foxes get better at pressuring and being generally gay.

Linking aerial --> Shine may eventually not even be guaranteed one day, and U-throw U-air is barely a true combo right now, so that's fine.

When I said Fox still has a **** ton to still apply, i didn't necessarily mean new stuff (though there's a lot of stuff, like multishines and shortened illusions, which need USE), but Fox is crazy untapped. Fox's (except Mango's new school Fox) don't know jack about shield pressure. Shine grabs, not blindly shine N Airing till you get CC ***** (though hell, even this isn't used half as much as it should), the aforementioned multishines, Fox should be able to get on your shield and stay around there till he forces you to **** up and then punish or until he gets through himself.

There's loads of other stuff that Fox's don't do right, like using platforms, smart camping and not just running into **** like OMG N AIR AND SHINE ARE QUICK AND COOL, but i cba going into it all at the moment.

If a human Fox player reaches the point where he can react to individual Shines in a Multishine chain and discern whether he hit or not while still being safe and still covering the OoS options and also reach the opponent, then that player deserves a blowjob and several cookies.

Na, multishines were something I think people should just throw in WITH shield pressure, ward away rolls and ****. I was talking about Fox's shield pressure as a whole when I said that last sentence.

If you throw in a Multishine, and I roll, I get hit, don't get knocked down, and then I get away for free unless you guessed that I was going to move on that specific Shine.

Fox's Multishine against characters it doesn't knock down does remarkably little unless heavy situational factors are at work (such as being close to the edge). Falco cheats because even if he fails to move out of the Shine that hits, he can still combo most of the time because his is a launcher that sends up with stun for days.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't think fox lasering would force his opponent to approach, opponent could simply hide or something. : ]

 

[Blistering Speed]

I wonder if people ever notice that I actually take the time to cite people that already do the things I'm talking about. But inconveniently don't play Sheik too.

You citing one fairly miscellaneous player who doesn't even play the character in question is hardly conducive to a good argument. When I see it being used as well as U Air SDI, then fair enough, but that's way easier to see coming.

Lasers don't break crouch canceling or SDI and they don't stun. If Fox runs away from Sheik and lets her establish stage presence and work her range, Fox runs out of places to run quickly, has to approach because she's waiting to punish him if he does anything and then he winds up playing exactly the way she wants him to.

Lol, I'm not saying that Fox's lasers PHYSICALLY stop CCing, they just force Sheik to approach and Sheik's azz approach can't implement all the defensive measures you were talking about. She has to use her azz approach to get close enough to "work her range" and by then Fox can get in. I personally don't believe you can SDI a simple SH D Air when a Fox is lasering, DDing and platform camping around on reaction and as for N Air, you can't CC because you're approaching. Fox has lots of alternative to these too, but as you note, they're less then optimal against Sheik.

Linking aerial --> Shine may eventually not even be guaranteed one day, and U-throw U-air is barely a true combo right now, so that's fine.

U Throw U Air ain't everything. You attempt to SDI an U Air, Fox gets an easy badly DIed B Air. At higher percents, edgeguard **** ensues.

If a human Fox player reaches the point where he can react to Multishines and discern whether he hit or not while still being safe and still covering the OoS options and also reach the opponent, then that player deserves a blowjob and several cookies.

See other post, not what I was suggesting.

Fox's Multishine against characters it doesn't knock down does remarkably little unless heavy situational factors are at work (such as being close to the edge). Falco cheats because even if he fails to move out of the Shine that hits, he can still combo most of the time because his is a launcher that sends up with stun for days.

Don't lock down on multishines just because I mentioned them, it's only a small part of Fox's shield pressure I was talking about. Also, being near the edge, while situational, is a situation that occurs A LOT.

KK's mad fun to debate with <3

 

[otg]

yet again making judgements about **** yu know nothing about

***** you do it too.

 

[PEEF!]

KirbyKaze, this Crouch SDI stuff could work well for the ICs too couldn't it.

 

[St. Viers]

@Blistering Speed: according to your logic, an infighter should never ever be able to get in on someone with a longer range in boxing. You don't seem to realize that a character like shiek that is slower/has less range than fox can still force him around/make him move/attack first, just like an infighter can maneuver an out-fighter into a situation where they are trapped (despite their superior footwork and range). So fox sits back, shooting lasers (the equivilent to an outboxer throwing a couple jabs--to win on points if the infighter is scared to come in/punish them if they try and rush up). Shiek starts approaching, but not rushing in. In this case, the fox can back up (an option that gets worse the closer to the edge of the stage he gets), can try and go around the shiek (which may give the opportunity for the shiek to get a free knockdown on him if she reads his movement right), or (most likely) cause him to jump in, keep up pressure, get a combo.

Two of those options (under the old way of thinking) are neutral/advantageous to shiek: the retreat/trying to get around her allow her to slowly set up her presence on-stage, taking a bit of percent from the lasering. The problem was if she came in and he got in a good hit, she was disadvantaged. KK is saying that when you can SDI out of his d-air; SDI out of his upthrow->upair; CC his n-air, his coming in isn't as threatening, even if he gets hits in. His crazy combos are now harder to pull off, while she *still* has the same devastating things she can do to fox (which are based off reaction rather than the opponent's skill at DI).

While I think that at best, the match will be even, I don't get how you are countering KK's claims, Blistering Speed. As to multishining shields, however, even if you can't see the exact shine that hit them, you'll still be at the advantage, so I agree that even at human starndards, fox's shield pressure isn't the best it can be (though on the other side, no body's shield DI game is very good either, so meh, hard to talk about)

 

[LumpyCPU...]

sheik sdi'ing fox's up throw uairs and shffl dairs and getting tech chase zero to deaths purely based on reaction sounds more realistic than perfecting fox's shield pressure (including multishines) while remaining able to react to every option. foxes camping only gets you so far with sheik as it shouldn't threaten her to change up her game too much or try to get in your face. needles aren't bad against fox. needles are still underrated in today's sheik metagame, imo.

i already leaning on this match up being even or a bit in sheik's favor. haha talking about all this is only solidifying that for me.

i think that fox playing "perfect" can create a perfect defense and offense at the same time.
he has an amazing potential due to his great speed combined with a one frame attack that can be canceled into virtually any other movement/attack. and while his potential might be higher than sheik's, it's much further away and seems almost unreachable.

 

[Blistering Speed]

@Blistering Speed: according to your logic, an infighter should never ever be able to get in on someone with a longer range in boxing. You don't seem to realize that a character like shiek that is slower/has less range than fox can still force him around/make him move/attack first, just like an infighter can maneuver an out-fighter into a situation where they are trapped (despite their superior footwork and range). So fox sits back, shooting lasers (the equivilent to an outboxer throwing a couple jabs--to win on points if the infighter is scared to come in/punish them if they try and rush up). Shiek starts approaching, but not rushing in. In this case, the fox can back up (an option that gets worse the closer to the edge of the stage he gets), can try and go around the shiek (which may give the opportunity for the shiek to get a free knockdown on him if she reads his movement right), or (most likely) cause him to jump in, keep up pressure, get a combo.

Two of those options (under the old way of thinking) are neutral/advantageous to shiek: the retreat/trying to get around her allow her to slowly set up her presence on-stage, taking a bit of percent from the lasering. The problem was if she came in and he got in a good hit, she was disadvantaged. KK is saying that when you can SDI out of his d-air; SDI out of his upthrow->upair; CC his n-air, his coming in isn't as threatening, even if he gets hits in. His crazy combos are now harder to pull off, while she *still* has the same devastating things she can do to fox (which are based off reaction rather than the opponent's skill at DI).

Well, if for the sake of argument we'll assume that its possible to SDI D Air on reaction (which I'll keep to believing it when I'm seeing it), how do you pose an active threat approaching with Sheik without "rushing" in?
Also, on the combo thing, as I've said, a badly DIed N Air/B Air can be just as devastating from U Throw. Fox's only true combos apart from that used often were aerial to shine (I hold still works) and shine to whatever (still works). The vast majority of Fox's "combos" are just him pressuring opponents into disadvantaged positions where he can essentially just keep hitting them.

While I think that at best, the match will be even, I don't get how you are countering KK's claims, Blistering Speed. As to multishining shields, however, even if you can't see the exact shine that hit them, you'll still be at the advantage, so I agree that even at human starndards, fox's shield pressure isn't the best it can be (though on the other side, no body's shield DI game is very good either, so meh, hard to talk about)

See my response to Lumpy about the shield pressure.

sheik sdi'ing fox's up throw uairs and shffl dairs and getting tech chase zero to deaths purely based on reaction sounds more realistic than perfecting fox's shield pressure (including multishines) while remaining able to react to every option. foxes camping only gets you so far with sheik as it shouldn't threaten her to change up her game too much or try to get in your face. needles aren't bad against fox. needles are still underrated in today's sheik metagame, imo.

i already leaning on this match up being even or a bit in sheik's favor. haha talking about all this is only solidifying that for me.

i think that fox playing "perfect" can create a perfect defense and offense at the same time.
he has an amazing potential due to his great speed combined with a one frame attack that can be canceled into virtually any other movement/attack. and while his potential might be higher than sheik's, it's much further away and seems almost unreachable.

Alright, FORGET MULTISHINING, big picture here. Fox does NOT NEED multishining, his shield pressure is **** without it from shine aerials, shine grabs, being designed to bait etc, all humanly possible to use and react to. I was simply saying multishines'd be good for conditioning against stuff, which it hasn't been used for yet.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

[ignoring multishines for this post]

the only fox shield pressure (to my knowledge) that is truly safe is useless if the sheik is patient and waits for the right time to jump/roll/wd oos. so if you wanna bait them to make a mistake during your shield pressure, you have to mix it up with something a bit more vulnerable from time to time or the sheik will know to always wait out the safe rotation. this would create a mix up battle between sheik and fox that is totally up to the players and how good their judgements/reads are, nullifying any argument about the match up.

right? idk ha

edit: also to be truly safe you'd have to approach with a really late shffl nair, right? if the sheik doesn't shield it and instead ftilts i think it'll hit because you were waiting to nair last second. idk it's all mixups at this point and it's not really about the character match up as much as the player match up.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, for the most part "aerial to shine" does not work. Only dair to shine is safe right now (every other aerial risks getting CC grabbed, just try it on Marth players lol), and with smash DI on dair even that will no longer work.

Shine to whatever still works

shine grab is ****.

Sheik can approach by walking forward and tilting. Why do people not realize this?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Actually, for the most part "aerial to shine" does not work. Only dair to shine is safe right now (every other aerial risks getting CC grabbed, just try it on Marth players lol), and with smash DI on dair even that will no longer work.

Shine to whatever still works

shine grab is ****.

Sheik can approach by walking forward and tilting. Why do people not realize this?

i like this post.

 

[Mew2King]

you can just spotdodge shine-grab and punish it if you expect it lol

 

[ArcNatural]

Actually, for the most part "aerial to shine" does not work. Only dair to shine is safe right now (every other aerial risks getting CC grabbed, just try it on Marth players lol), and with smash DI on dair even that will no longer work.

Shine to whatever still works

shine grab is ****.

Sheik can approach by walking forward and tilting. Why do people not realize this?

I'm pretty sure late strong aerials can't be CC grabbed.

 

[jugfingers]

you can just spotdodge shine-grab and punish it if you expect it lol

you can multishine grab though.

 

[Winston]

@Blistering Speed

I don't think KK is arguing that Sheik will never get hit in this matchup. However, if the Sheik player were able to implement these things even fairly consistently (cc grab anything ccable, sdi drills and uairs, techchase on reaction), it would become Sheik > Fox.

A lot of the things that foxes use to deal a lot of damage to sheik (aerial to shine to uthrow uair, for example) would be unreliable if a player was able to play as he is saying, whereas on the other hand the sheik would get upwards of half a stock (or a full stock) every time he grabbed fox.

Laser camping doesn't win the matchup right now, so I'm not sure why it would win the matchup in these conditions.

I'm not convinced personally on this because I have no idea what all of fox's realistically possible options/strategies are, but from what people have said so far KK's argument hasn't really been refuted.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you can just spotdodge shine-grab and punish it if you expect it lol

IF you expect it lol. and even that only works if you are right lol. you shoulda mained fox dude.

 

[JPOBS]

does waveshining work properly on sheik?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yes .

 

[LumpyCPU...]

"if you expect it" falls under player mix ups, not evidence for character match ups.
IMO

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think it would fall under matchups but since its a fox/falco technique and the way to "beat" it is relatively the same for every character then it doesnt matter.

I wouldnt try to use shine grab as an example of why fox beats sheik in a MU.

 

[KirbyKaze]

KirbyKaze, this Crouch SDI stuff could work well for the ICs too couldn't it.

Maybe.

But not as well because they don't have Sheik's ridiculous grab range, increased traction, and fast ground moves (tilts, D-smash, etc.) that hit in front of her and double as easy-to-hit anti-air moves.

 

[Pi]

gook

****ing racist

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm half asian so I can say that.

But in all seriousness, I'm not racist. I hate everyone.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

fox vs anyone is "even"

i swear lol. everybody can **** him hard


*does not provide evidence or logical arguments for this statement*

 

[KAOSTAR]

I see your point tho.