Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
marth is bad because his hitboxes last for a very short amount of time. he has the safety of range with the danger of dead frames.
puff has range AND lasting hitboxes
puff has range AND lasting hitboxes
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Fortress | Sveet
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^ not really...
Puff B-Air
Total: 39
Hit: 9-12
IASA: 31
Auto cancel: <8 25>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
Marth F-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 4-7
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 27>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
Same number of frames out, but marth's is faster and the animation is shorter.
Puff B-Air
Total: 39
Hit: 9-12
IASA: 31
Auto cancel: <8 25>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
Marth F-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 4-7
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 27>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
Same number of frames out, but marth's is faster and the animation is shorter.
Aesir
Smash Master
-Marth is slow
-A lot of his moves have blind spots
-he gets ***** REALLY hard by sheik
-His recovery is vertical
He's not that good.
-A lot of his moves have blind spots
-he gets ***** REALLY hard by sheik
-His recovery is vertical
He's not that good.
Fortress | Sveet
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marth is definitely not slow. ganon is slow. marth just isn't as fast as fox/falco/sheik and rightfully so, he has a lot more range.
all moves have blind spots. knowing them is part of knowing matchups
lots of characters get ***** by sheik. its actually not nearly as bad as sheik vs falcon or sheik vs other characters.
was that supposed to be a negative?
marth is really friggin good.
Niko45
Smash Master
A lot of people would argue that Sheik vs Marth is worse than Sheik vs CF, not that I'm necessarily one of them.
And its definitely true that compared to other characters, Marth's moveset is riddled with very short hitboxes compared to the total lag of the moves themselves - meaning he does suffer from being significantly more vulnerable upon committing to a move relative to other top characters.
Oh and he sucks on non-neutrals.
Marth is pretty good, but at the end of the day he's closer to Peach and CF's level than he is to the top 4.
And its definitely true that compared to other characters, Marth's moveset is riddled with very short hitboxes compared to the total lag of the moves themselves - meaning he does suffer from being significantly more vulnerable upon committing to a move relative to other top characters.
Oh and he sucks on non-neutrals.
Marth is pretty good, but at the end of the day he's closer to Peach and CF's level than he is to the top 4.
Fortress | Sveet
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What do you think would happen if someone played a hugs styled marth? spacing jabs and tilts but at the same time now has disjointed hitboxes, reliable grab, and aerials that are useful. Marth has a lot more potential than just that, which is why you don't see many marth players falling back onto things like that. It does work though.
basically, i dont think you're giving credit to how great range is in this game.
basically, i dont think you're giving credit to how great range is in this game.
gm jack
Smash Lord
Well, other characters have got better faster than Marth has. Marth now and 3 years ago is a lot more similar than spacies and especially puff now.
I do feel that marth is a great character still, but he is no longer the powerhouse he was in the days of Ken. Other characters have simply caught up.
ChickenWing13
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,237
- NNID
- Frosty93
Hier is my top tier list:
Falco
Fox
Falcon
Marth
Mewtwo
Falco
Fox
Falcon
Marth
Mewtwo
I agree with the guy who's been on the forums a full 4 days, he seems to know whats up.
Fortress | Sveet
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Marth is just as fast as any other character when used by someone who knows what they are doing. Marth just isn't as basic as "dash dance until theres an opening and then spam tech skill". Go watch mango's marth, he moves very quickly and i've seen other high level marths move just as fast or faster.
Aesir
Smash Master
When the top three characters. Fox, Falco, Sheik(Sheik also has comparable range to marth) are much faster than you, you're slow. Don't throw out *random character who's slow* and expecting it to fly. Obviously he's quicker than most of the cast, that wasn't the point. In comparison to the other top tiers he's slow.
Not to the extent marth has. In relation the top tiers he's at a considerable disadvantage.
Yes it is. Marth vs Sheik is definitely 70/30. If you don't believe me go play sheiks who don't scratch their nuts while they play.
Yes. Vertical recoveries are much easier to **** than horizontal recoveries.
lol i laughed at this for some reason. I agree though, or at least, it feels that way to me. I don't feel very comfortable playing against sheik as marth but its a nice match up otherwise.
Fortress | Sveet
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You seem to overlook the fact that range is incredibly important in this game. i wonder why pichu is bottom tier even tho he is fast while ganon is slow as hell but has range and is mid/high tier depending on who you ask.
Marth is very fast. Woops 4th fastest character in the game, so sorry, hes slow. You're comparing him to characters who are built for speed, of course they will be faster, its their forte. Marth's forte is range, you dont see me claiming fox and falco are horrible characters because they have no range. Its not true. They have range, but they excel in speed; marth has speed, but he excels in range.
Marth is very fast. Woops 4th fastest character in the game, so sorry, hes slow. You're comparing him to characters who are built for speed, of course they will be faster, its their forte. Marth's forte is range, you dont see me claiming fox and falco are horrible characters because they have no range. Its not true. They have range, but they excel in speed; marth has speed, but he excels in range.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think there may one day come a time where Sheik > Fox in the matchup.
marth isn't even that slow. He has desent ground speed, it's only once he jumps that he's slow.
stick to ground moves and SH AC nair/shffl aerials and yull be straight
stick to ground moves and SH AC nair/shffl aerials and yull be straight
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
I think we're all forgetting that Kirby > Sheik.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
my balls > kirby
Aesir
Smash Master
I acknowledge it's importance, I'm just not over stating it. Range is important but it's not the defining trait that makes a character excel. Hell link should be better than he actually is if that were the case.
Um what? Do you even know why Pichu is bottem tier? it's not because of range, range is the least of pichus problems.
Also ganon has survivability plus he can kill people relatively quickly which more than makes up for his lack in speed.
If we're going off of the whole cast he's still pretty slow because there's a good amount of characters who are faster than him but are over all not as good as him. I'm not saying speed means everything, marth is still really good he's just not as good as people think he is. He has holes in his game play that can be exploited just like any other character. It's just those holes are easier to exploit than say Sheik, Fox, or Falco.
falco's technically slower than marth, the only things faster/shorter is the duration of his jump and his fall speed
Aesir
Smash Master
Falcos pressuring game makes up for that though. When I'm talking about speed I'm talking about more than just running and falling speed. I'm talking about how fast the character is in general. IE: move lags, movement speed aerial mobility ect...
Plus falcos zoning game makes *insert character here*'s speed almost irrelevant.
Plus falcos zoning game makes *insert character here*'s speed almost irrelevant.
@Aesir: actually, pichu's biggest weakness *is* his lack of range. No one who actually plays/knows the pichu matchup uses "he damages himself," or "but he's really light" as a reason Pichu is bad. It's because he has no attack or grab range.
Also, when comparing speeds, you can't say "okay, falco isn't actually faster than marth, but it doesn't matter." That's like saying, "okay, marth isn't as fast as fox, but it doesn't matter (because marth's range makes "*insert character here*'s speed almost irrelevant."
Just to bring this up again, no one responded to Sveet's point, that if Marths were to actually play using their ground game--jabs and tilts, and keep aerial game limted to spaced, autocanceled n-airs and spaced f-airs, he would look alot faster, and harder to play against. In my opinion, and the doc boards reason we don't hate playing marths, is because they try to be too fancy-going for grabs (which is usually a sub optimal option unless playing against a fox/falco or are right by the ledge) or comboing at unsafe percents. If they stuck to low percent comboing, techchasing, and slowly coming in and applying pressure, there is really nothing a character except shiek could do to stop them (falco's lasers being easy to PS, and other char's projectiles being jab able).
@Sveet: the problem with marth's recovery is similar to shiek's: if they simply grab the ledge, and force him to recover onstage, he has too much recovery lag. This problem is further exacerbated by his vertical recovery: it's quite obvious to see whether he is coming to try and swat you off the ledge or whether he's trying to go low and sweetspot. This gives a player ample time to either refresh the invincibility frames and b-air, or just hold onto the ledge, let him recover, and ledgehop a b-air, ledgedash->grab_.backthrow.
Also, when comparing speeds, you can't say "okay, falco isn't actually faster than marth, but it doesn't matter." That's like saying, "okay, marth isn't as fast as fox, but it doesn't matter (because marth's range makes "*insert character here*'s speed almost irrelevant."
Just to bring this up again, no one responded to Sveet's point, that if Marths were to actually play using their ground game--jabs and tilts, and keep aerial game limted to spaced, autocanceled n-airs and spaced f-airs, he would look alot faster, and harder to play against. In my opinion, and the doc boards reason we don't hate playing marths, is because they try to be too fancy-going for grabs (which is usually a sub optimal option unless playing against a fox/falco or are right by the ledge) or comboing at unsafe percents. If they stuck to low percent comboing, techchasing, and slowly coming in and applying pressure, there is really nothing a character except shiek could do to stop them (falco's lasers being easy to PS, and other char's projectiles being jab able).
@Sveet: the problem with marth's recovery is similar to shiek's: if they simply grab the ledge, and force him to recover onstage, he has too much recovery lag. This problem is further exacerbated by his vertical recovery: it's quite obvious to see whether he is coming to try and swat you off the ledge or whether he's trying to go low and sweetspot. This gives a player ample time to either refresh the invincibility frames and b-air, or just hold onto the ledge, let him recover, and ledgehop a b-air, ledgedash->grab_.backthrow.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
This right here, pichu only has 2 flaws range and he can't take a hit. range is a bit more troubling.
sorry I can smell his name posted. And I can't really reply to anything else you said because it looks right.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Do you namesearch pichu or something lmao?
i agree with the second part, falcos lasers kind of hides his slow moving speed
Aesir
Smash Master
This is what I was looking for, I mean not gonna lie I did actually believe what I was typing in the beginning. But after I realized the logic was flawed I just continued with it until someone showed how silly it was.
Kudos.
I agree with that actually my game is more ground based now and I've noticed a vast improvement. Especially when it comes to edge guarding. I always assume they'll over B to the stage so I'll be read to forward tilt them out of it which is not only easier but can be more devastating than an fsmash. If they decide to Up b I can just react to it. I find marths tilts to be incredibly under rated, they have a lot of uses outside obscure situational stuff.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Sveet, you're a cool poster but you always hype Marth wayyyy too much. I do agree to an extent that he's underrated currently because like, no one plays him, but he's not FoxPuffFalcoSheik good.
I would love to hear reasoning for this. As I see it, Fox has more room to progress compared to Sheik and at the moment Fox definately> Sheik.
gm jack
Smash Lord
Sheik can tech chase from 0-death on reaction. She can also gimp Fox stupidly well for a single mistake near the ledge. I can't see Sheik getting an advantage but I can see it pulled even just on how well Sheik can punish for so comparatively little techskill. I know this is top level, but being able to do stuff more easily still increases consistency.
Sheik still does have a decent way to progress, but is also lacking in players (in the US at least). In pound 4, in addition to Amsah's result and another european Sheik called Overtriforce nearly knocked M2K out of winners in the 3rd round of brackets. I went down to lack stock of the last match, and OTF could have 2-0 him if a single Bair at the end of the second game had connected.
Sheik doesn't have as much technical room to advance, but she still has a fantastic moveset and speed, so the way in which she is played can develop.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
No, I think it's just a 7th sense LOL but I seem to always look when someone posts pichu's name. Also if you looked carefully at what I said I was trying to make it seem like I always knew were pichu's name was so people would try to test me and post pichu in random threads, however they may feel good to prove me wrong they would have just fell into my trap for pichu hype and they would also be hyping pichu without knowing it, however this showing of my plan could also easily be a trap to stop total noobs from posting about pichu when they don't know **** about him which I hate.
mindgames if do or don't think, just like this. I have 2 really really big problems exaggerating and lieing. think about it, what's his problem?
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i agree to an extent that fox/falco/puff are above marth/sheik.
if marth isn't good enough to be in fox and falco's tier then falcon's not good enough to be in marth's tier.
if marth is for some reason not in the top tier, then the tiers should look like this:
(not in specific order)
tier A: fox/falco/puff
tier B: marth/sheik
tier C: peach/falcon/(climbers?)
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Yeah, Sheik has ridiculous punishes, but that's not unique against Fox. Most high level characters can semi consistently kill Fox off a single mistake at the highest level of play.
Meh, M2k's Fox isn't exactly the metagame pinnacle. it's good because he's M2k, but he plays like it's 06...with even worse tech skill these days due to dividing his time with Brawl.
I'd say Amsah has fully exhausted any and all uses for Sheik's "moveset and speed" by now.
I agree with this tier grouping except C can probably afford to be a little less exclusive.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
uhhh yea ICG. I feel it.
Jimbo Slice
Smash Journeyman
I think that the further you go down on the tier list the broader the tiers get and the more characters in each tier, generally speaking. So basically what Blistering Speed said about having more in tier c.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
tier A: fox/falco/puff
tier B: marth/sheik
tier C: peach/falcon/climbers/doc/samus/ganon
like that? lol
i like exclusive tiers because i feel it more accurately portrays the difference in how good certain characters are. i think all characters in any specific tier should be really close or even debatable and we all know peach is more than slightly better than iceclimbers* so i don't see them in the same tier.
i see doc, samus, and ganon really close to each other but not so close to falcon or peach.
and i'd say climbers aren't any closer to falcon/peach than they are to samus/doc/ganon.
idk, i guess there's a reason i'm not in smash back room. lol
*i've never heard an argument for ice climbers being as good as peach before.
tier B: marth/sheik
tier C: peach/falcon/climbers/doc/samus/ganon
like that? lol
i like exclusive tiers because i feel it more accurately portrays the difference in how good certain characters are. i think all characters in any specific tier should be really close or even debatable and we all know peach is more than slightly better than iceclimbers* so i don't see them in the same tier.
i see doc, samus, and ganon really close to each other but not so close to falcon or peach.
and i'd say climbers aren't any closer to falcon/peach than they are to samus/doc/ganon.
idk, i guess there's a reason i'm not in smash back room. lol
*i've never heard an argument for ice climbers being as good as peach before.
ranmaru
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 13,297
- Switch FC
- SW-0654 7794 0698
I actually like the grouping tier list thing... That way it's simpler to see who is better generally than just really technically. That gives some people options if they want to pick FROM THE BEST instead of picking THE BEST.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i don't think the tier list is meant for people to choose new mains from. lol
the size of the tiers won't affect the order of the characters.
i guess i just prefer a less generalized grouping.
(i think peach and falcon get their own tier)
it could just be top, middle, and bottom tier. i don't think that would be too bad because it shows the good characters, the "ok" characters, and the bad characters.
the size of the tiers won't affect the order of the characters.
i guess i just prefer a less generalized grouping.
(i think peach and falcon get their own tier)
it could just be top, middle, and bottom tier. i don't think that would be too bad because it shows the good characters, the "ok" characters, and the bad characters.
Let It Riot
Smash Cadet
I agree that tiers do not need to grow in size as the descend.
While tiers may normally grow in size such as on a bell curve, super smash bros balance does not follow this. That is to say we do not *need* to see a bulge in the middle and a narrowing at the poles in terms of character strength.
The point of a tier list, at least to my understanding, is to show the relative strength of characters in a particular game. The definition of a tier is simply a rank or a class of something. If a character does not fit in the same "rank" or "class" then we should not force it into the tier for aesthetic value.
If hypothetically captain falcon, peach, and ice climbers are markedly thought to be much stronger than say ganon, we shouldn't put ganon in there to simply increase the amount of characters in the tier.
In short we should focus on accuracy over looks or ideals of a descending tiers when we form or alter a tier list.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
well said.
Jimbo Slice
Smash Journeyman
I didn't mean that tiers absolutely have to get bigger as they go down. It just seems that the bottom and low tier characters are closer than the higher tiered characters. Accuracy is obviously preferred. Thus far I actually like Lumpy's ideas.
Fortress | Sveet
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i don't know puffs cause there really isn't a good MW puff so i basically have 0 experience, while at the same time there are lots of marths and spacies and falcons and just enough sheiks and peaches to give us headaches.
i could agree with this list i suppose, though i'm still skeptical about puff's brokenness without having played hbox's puff.
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