Official MBR Tier List

[x After Dawn x]

Which is funny, because as more people use jiggz, falcon, ganon, doc, (can add peach and samus here if we wanted), having a solid marth would benefit one greatly.

um no, it's actually the opposite. falcon and ganon are even / slightly advantageous over marth, and most marth mains as far as I know really hate those two matchups and would prefer switching to pretty much anything else for it.

and high level jigglypuff players destroy marth. there's a lot of reasons why but I'm too lazy to dig up paragraphs explaining the matchup, but tell me the last time hungrybox or mango lost a set to a marth main. >_>

edit: ninja'd by xbombr. I should really read everything before immediately pressing that reply button haha

 

[Cosmo!]

people shouldn't be johning about marth v ganon at all, or even marth vs puff

marth vs falcon on the other hand is rough business

 

[x After Dawn x]

uh marth vs ganon is just as rough, if not, rougher than marth vs falcon. marth vs jiggs is a diff story though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth has amazing matchups. Its even with puff, her longest move is the same length as his sword but has more lag and more startup. He can also combo her as well as fox can (which isn't saying too much). The matchup isn't in his favor only because he doesn't have a reliable kill move setup. If you call one bair of puff's with a fsmash, you get a stock even if you trade hits. Also, utilt is good to kill with if you can set it up (w/ say sideb or proper spacing). Marth can play it similarly to how he plays vs peach, spacing her out and walling her out and waiting until fair kills if he can't land a KO move (puff dies around 150% from fair, about the same time fox's bair kills which is pretty common if the fox can't get a uthrow->uair or usmash kill)

 

[xbombr]

I like the part in Marth vs. Puff where you try to wall her out with Fairs for 3 minutes and then you get frustrated and she rests you when you try to land something more powerful than a SHFFL'ed FAir or NAir.

 

[St. Viers]

@xbombr: Maybe I have unrealistic view of this game, but can you tell me why marth, who has the most range in the game, loses to characters that are slower, and have less range (ganon, puff). My understanding is that it's because most marths are too impatient. A marth that loses handily to a puff or ganon would lose to doc as well, yet for some reason, people realize this about doc, and not the others.

Yeah, if the marth overcommits, he'll get rested. However, if he is content to just space fairs, jabs, and uptilts (without trying to get a grab in, which is mostly useless against jiggz at anything but really low percents) she can't really rest him. Also, a missed rest = death against marth (not sure exactly how low, but like 20% or something). I know that it's harder in practice, but not *too* much so. I maintain that the problem is people using marth in a sub-par way (in matchups where they can't link crazy combos).

Against Ganon, the punishment isn't really greater than marths, as all marth really has to do is get ganon off the ledge and it's a stock. You call is a spacing battle, and that right there (to me) shows that marth has an advantage, as he's better at spacing... Sure, if you mess up, you'll take obscene percent in a small number of hits, but again, unless you mess up, ganon can't do anything, except take hits.

I do agree that the falcon matchup is not in fact marth's advantage.

TL:DR: I believe that a majority of marth players don't play marth correctly in matchups where they need to play patient and safe. Also, because Ganon and Puff have an extremely famous figurehead player (Kage, and Hbox/mango) people are swayed to think that it's the character matchup's fault rather than a matter of player skill. If Doc had an amazing player using him, I posit that people would be saying that marth didn't have a good matchup against him either, as the reasons he is good against doc are the reasons he's good against ganon and puff.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I just don't know what to say, I don't think hbox is better than m2k but puffseems to win.

range alone just isn't enough. marth is a lil *****, thats all there is to it.

my hope is that as more puffs come along, people will learn new ways of beating them. maybe marth will return but for now he ain't ****

 

[xbombr]

Marth doesn't lose to Ganon. They either go even or Ganon has a slight disadvantage. Being Marth in this match up doesn't yield you any great benefits. Marth isn't hard to edgeguard either and Ganon's KO potential is insane. Ganon also has lots of range and gets around pretty fast via wavelanding. Ganon is far from helpless in this match up, especially if he does a good job of positioning himself properly. People do misspace aerials, it's a fact of this game. The amazingly small number of misspacings that Ganon needs to gain the upperhand makes this match up really frustrating for Marth even if he does have an advantage.

Jiggs vs. Marth is almost exclusively aerials unless Marth is throwing out a smash or tilt in hopes of finishing off Jiggs early. Every time he does that he's in danger of being rested too. Jiggs is faster than Marth in the air since she has far greater aerial mobility. Marth has the benefit of more range, but he can't kill Jiggs until obscenely high %'s without some sort of luck on a high risk move. I'd go as far as putting Marth at a slight disadvantage, but it's even at best.

I don't know much about the Doc vs. Marth match other than Marth can **** Doc's pills with sword and without being able to camp, the match up becomes really hard for Doc because he has to look for openings via forcing misspacings and mixups much like Ganon does, but doesn't have near the punishment options or even as good of a recovery. Marth's match up with Doc is very different from his match up with Ganon and Jiggs.

 

[yummynbeefy]

marth vs puff is a horrendous matchup the puff mains ive talked to say the true matchup is around 70-30 marths favor hbox and mango just know exactly what to do against marth

 

[X1-12]

marth vs puff is a horrendous matchup the puff mains ive talked to say the true matchup is around 70-30 marths favor hbox and mango just know exactly what to do against marth

I think its partly the marths getting it wrong as much as it is Hbox and mango knowing what to do, but yeah the first part is so true, match up is very strongly in marth's favour

 

[-ACE-]

um no, it's actually the opposite. falcon and ganon are even / slightly advantageous over marth, and most marth mains as far as I know really hate those two matchups and would prefer switching to pretty much anything else for it.

You just need to learn the matchup, especially with Ganon. Marth vs Ganon is very close to even (Falcon is even closer imo) but to me Marth has a slight advantage. There are lots of Marths who either haven't taken the time to learn the matchup or they don't have any good Ganons to play against very often. Whereas almost any Ganon that does well in tournament has a good grasp on the top/high tier matchups, because you won't get anywhere if you don't know how to handle those. I'd recommend getting used to techchasing Ganon and camping for grabs more.. a good Ganon should be able to deal with Marth's approaches fairly well and won't give Marth any easy combos. Spacing is key.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think the marth ganon is slightly in ganons favor.

Speed vs power. Both with range.

Every hit you take hurts soooo much more.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think the marth ganon is slightly in ganons favor.

Speed vs power. Both with range.

Every hit you take hurts soooo much more.

LMAOO

no, its not in ganon's favor.


marth literally 0-death's ganon every time he gets a hit. god i love heavy characters with low natural air movement.

 

[otg]

LMAOO

marth literally 0-death's ganon every time he gets a hit. god i love heavy characters with low natural air movement.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. This only happens if that Ganon lets it. Besides that, I still think Marth wins but it's a lame matchup, he gets punished SOOOOo hard for any mistake he makes, very lame.

 

[xbombr]

LMAOO

no, its not in ganon's favor.


marth literally 0-death's ganon every time he gets a hit. god i love heavy characters with low natural air movement.

o_O What Ganons do you play against?

 

[Zephynazo]

Marth vs Ganon is in Marth's favor, but not by alot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

pretty good ones. Once ganon gets hit, his options go to exactly 0. He can't interrupt any of your moves, and the only thing he is left with is teching and rolling, which isn't hard to follow up. Once you get him off the stage he is 100% dead unless marth messes up. If ganon downb's, you get a reverse upb or a spike. if ganon upb's you get a spike or fsmash. its even easier than falcon's recovery.

Yeah, ganon has relatively equal range, but he has virutally no follow ups as long as marth DIs right. "Oh you just put your fist in my face? That hurt a lot. Ok well i'm back to neutral with my 20% extra."

 

[I.B]

This is SO true in so many ways.



It's not necessarily that there have been a lack of good Marth players, it's just the fact that the '10 metagame is MUCH smarter than the '05-'07 metagame and people have learned to push characters like Fox, Falco, and Sheik to a higher level with greater potential than what Marth has to offer. Honestly, what has Marth done in the past 3 years that has made him a better character...? All I can think of is that Marth players now tend to optimize Marth's tools better than back 3 years ago when only Ken and M2K could use them properly (ie: 0-to-death grabs, reverse dolphin slash kills, etc), but Marth hasn't really changed that much in the past few years to keep up with other characters.

Sorry for the late reply.

This is true, but couldn't we say the same thing for Falcon? There's hasn't really been any new significant advances for the Falcon 'metagame'. They've just been becoming more technical and hitting their punishes more often than not. Why are Falcons close to, if not, more prominent than they were in '07 and before that. On top of that, there have been more spacies + Jiggs and less Marths so wouldn't it be even harder for Falcons to place well?

 

[JPOBS]

Yeah, ganon has relatively equal range, but he has virutally no follow ups as long as marth DIs right. "Oh you just put your fist in my face? That hurt a lot. Ok well i'm back to neutral with my 20% extra."

Combo breaker DI vs Ganon is a tricky thing though.

if you DI away u take his massive knockback and although u avoid the combo you're now probably (way) offstage and trying to recover.

then if you DI in u get *****.
pick your poison :/

 

[strawhats]

I think its partly the marths getting it wrong as much as it is Hbox and mango knowing what to do, but yeah the first part is so true, match up is very strongly in marth's favour

its true...m2k refuses to use marth against jiggz because marth doesnt have any viable kill options against jiggz at early percents. Getting a grab on jiggz is a *****, unless its at like lower percents. M2k's playstyle revolves around grabs and baiting, for edgeguard opporutnities. Mango is already ridiculous at avoiding sheild grabs, and Hbox's air mobility covers so many options. The problem with marth is, he doesn't have a projectile, making approching jiggz in the air a *****.

However..in terms of skill Mango says that m2k is way up there (2nd best for life) , along with Armada. I guess he really hates HBOX cuz he believes that he's only winning because of how he plays with jiggz, and not because of his skill. Therefore M2K has the potential to win tourneys with marth again he just needs to practice his worst atchups. Honestly he is the only one I see fit to make marth rise to glory again.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Combo breaker DI vs Ganon is a tricky thing though.

if you DI away u take his massive knockback and although u avoid the combo you're now probably (way) offstage and trying to recover.

then if you DI in u get *****.
pick your poison :/

i play against ganon basically every single day. I know how to avoid his combos and not die at early percents. I also know how to kill him off one hit (ask mundungu lololoololoolol). I don't know why this conversation has suddenly turn to me, i was just pointing out that marth vs ganon is nowhere near ganon's favor.

 

[Zephynazo]

Honestly he is the only one I see fit to make marth rise to glory again.

I agreed with everything u said, until that part came. No it's not true, M2K is not the only one, please trust me when saying this.

That is all.

 

[-ACE-]

i play against ganon basically every single day. I know how to avoid his combos and not die at early percents. I also know how to kill him off one hit (ask mundungu lololoololoolol). I don't know why this conversation has suddenly turn to me, i was just pointing out that marth vs ganon is nowhere near ganon's favor.

I seriously hope I can MM your marth with Ganon one day.

 

[TheManaLord]

i play against ganon basically every single day

that's just you pal!!!!

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i can't really speak on ganon/marth (though i see it as about 35/65 marth's favor)

i will say marth is the top tier character that falcon does the best against.
it feels really even and if it weren't for the edge guarding, i'd give the matchup to captain, easy.

marth puff is hard to call. i think it's in marth's favor because i think he can keep the puff out.
m2k thinks puff owns marth (iirc) but i just think the really good puffs are better at that match up than he is right now.

with all this said, the only reason i think marth should move down is because i believe falco (and maybe puff) are better characters. it's not because i think marth is bad/worse or any of that.

i honestly believe fox and falco being fast fallers and having shines solidifies them as top two.
falco's recovery, gimping, and kill percent are a little worse than fox but he has easier access to combos and he has the laser.

TL;DR as great a character as marth is, i don't think he can come between fox and falco.

 

[x After Dawn x]

@ sveet: ganon can DI out of marth's combos, I don't know what ganon you play against lol.

Sorry for the late reply.

This is true, but couldn't we say the same thing for Falcon? There's hasn't really been any new significant advances for the Falcon 'metagame'. They've just been becoming more technical and hitting their punishes more often than not. Why are Falcons close to, if not, more prominent than they were in '07 and before that. On top of that, there have been more spacies + Jiggs and less Marths so wouldn't it be even harder for Falcons to place well?

there aren't that many advances, but it seems like falcons now are just a lot more technical and have mastered how to follow up on each hit to string combos together as compared to years ago. it also seems like falcon players have learned their spacies matchup and learned not to get ***** anymore like in 05. ie, hax beating pc chris at pound 4. that and the fact that there's an absence of sheik players, which means falcons don't have to get ***** in that matchup either.

jiggs, on the other hand, I don't know. falcons like hax and darkrain really seem to know how to handle the jiggs matchup really well, but maybe jigglypuff is the character that really prevents falcon from being better than he wants to be. I've heard a lot of people say that matchup is roughly even, though IMO it's slightly in favor for jiggs. but yeah.

then again, the absence of sheik players helps out marth too, so I don't really know. all I know is that marth is definitely not as good in the current metagame than what he used to be.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i play against ganon basically every single day. I know how to avoid his combos and not die at early percents. I also know how to kill him off one hit (ask mundungu lololoololoolol). I don't know why this conversation has suddenly turn to me, i was just pointing out that marth vs ganon is nowhere near ganon's favor.

If its slightly in marths favor, IMO thats pretty close/near to ganons favor. Playstyles, skill of course affect the outcome but as far as arbitrary ganons vs arbitrary marths.

Ganons got a bit of a swagga. The word that pops into my head when I describe marth is "softbellied." Its like thats his weak spot. You hit that dude right there and its over. Thats why falcons nair ***** that dude.

Im sure you can 0-death ganon with marth. But its not as easy as you think. The knockback is just too rewarding, and ganon has decent edgegaurds-period.

I just love anecdotal evidence. My friend plays ganon and I **** him with m2. Does that mean m2 is good vs ganon.?. Probably, get at me.

 

[-ACE-]

A Ganon with good DI usually won't be hit more than 2 or 3 times tops.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol thats in a row, I just assumed he meant though tech chasing and edgeguarding could be 0-death a ganon.

Not like ken combo ganon all across the stage with 100% efficiency.

 

[BBQ°]

imo:

-marth is the 5th best character (fox, falco, puff, sheik are higher than him in no specific order)

-marth's current style is slightly outdated but he still has options to catch up to the metagame

-marth vs ganon is very close to even with a slight advantage to marth

-marth vs falcon is in falcon's favor, but it's still close to even nonetheless

-marth vs jiggs is supposed to be in marth's favor but I have no idea anymore and neither does anyone else. I think the problem with this matchup is that Marths tend to go on autopilot and let the Jiggs player do all the mindgaming and the Marth is just like "robot fair/ftilt/uptilt" so marth ends up getting *****

-marth vs doc is definitely in marth's favor. something like 65:35 probably

-marth vs sheik is the same story as marth vs falcon, but it's less work for sheik

-I think marth beats fox slightly, but I'm biased because all I see is m2k ****** everyone's fox. Mango's fox could probably do some work though. the matchup is probably even, idk.

-marth vs falco is pretty even with a slight advantage to falco. falco has all the options to avoid getting grabbed and marth depends on grab too much for the matchup to be even.

keep in mind that this is all "imo"

 

[Dark Sonic]

I disagree with your Marth vs Falco assessment. Getting grabs on Falco is becoming easier and easier as Marth players start to take advantage of basic game mechanics (though they're doing it in bits and pieces).

Powershielding lasers is becoming more mainstream, and a powershielded laser is basically a free grab for Marth. It also negates Falco's only midranged approach, letting Marth make use of his own pressure game from a safe distance.

Smash DIing in shield seems to be the new "thing" at least with the people I play with. You can smash DI away from Falco's shield pressure, and it's basically as effective at lightshielding, and easier to perform on command (for those uncomfortable with switching between full shield and lightshield). It's also a very sudden movement, and Falco players will often continue their pressure string thinking you were still in position to be hit. Yet again, a free grab for Marth.

Reacting after getting hit by a laser while airborne is another thing that I've seen a few Marths do. You can simply take the hit and then fair Falco out of anything he does that's not a shine. But people just forget to do this <_<. Landing said fair (or uair) is either a free grab or a free uptilt (which leads to grab) for Marth.


Basically, Falco players are utilizing the nuances of the matchup (sliding off of platforms or abusing momentum glitches to escape combos, smash DIing edgeguards in order to tech, ect.) but Marth players are not. Just using ONE of the things I've mentioned above drastically changes the matchup, as it enhances Marth's defense or provides him with a safer approach. Using ALL of them at the same time simply hasn't happened yet.

It's not that Marth CAN'T advance, it's that Marth players simply don't. Marth as a character is definitely lacking in unique mechanics for advancing his metagame, but he still has a ways to go in simply incorporating general mechanics into his playstyle. Using bits and pieces of this has great results.


Also, on the Marth vs Ganon matchup, you'd be surprised how well Marth combos Ganon EVEN WITH good DI. It's not those exagerated zero to deaths that Sveet is describing, but a competent Marth can easily get 60% off of one combo on Ganon, not because of it all actually being a combo, but simply because Marth can position himself to limit Ganon's options while chasing him. Take this for example.

Ganon has about 20% on him on let's say, battlefield.

Marth tips a fair on Ganon (Ganon is in the middle of the stage) and Ganon DI's away. Marth chases Ganon with a full jump tipped fair and lands on a platform. Then he runs off the platform and hit's Ganon with a falling tipped uair. In this position it will combo into either f-smash or a SH/Fullhopped tipped fair if he DI'd away From a fullhopped tipped fair he can either do a double jumped tipped fair (assuming he DI's away again) or he can neutral B. If he DI'd in or did not DI Marth still do the above, or he can sh an untipped fair or fullhop a dair (it won't kill at this percent though).

Each tipped fair does about 10%, each untipped fair does about 7%, the uair does 12%, dair does 12% (I think), neutral B does 10% and the f-smash does 20%

These percentages are just rough estimates from memory. But you can see that Marth can get a lot of damage in a couple of hits. Not to mention, this entire combo (started off a tipped fair and pretty much guaranteed) sends Ganon off stage for an edgeguard. So yes Marth combos Ganon like nobody's business. "Good Ganons get away after only 2 or 3 hits" is bull****. I pull these combos on Rockcrock, Renth, hell I even pulled stuff like this on KAGE at Genesis. And I'm not even that good <_<.

Only reason that Marth doesn't DESTROY Ganon is that Ganon can compete in range with Marth and can kill Marth off a few hits and a bit of edgeguarding (and Marth has trouble getting up from the ledge even if he does recover. Ganon has some of the best ledgetraps and Marth doesn't have great options from the ledge to begin with). Not nearly enough to give Ganondorf the advantage

 

[a13c]

marth should be top

 

[-ACE-]

I agree with BBQ that marth is 5th best, but I also think he should be top tier. Some people might see a problem with 5 people being in top tier, but I don't.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm fine with Marth being bottom of top tier (tied for 4th imo. I don't feel he's WORSE than Jigglypuff.)

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Why are people still debating position if this is the supposed "last" Melee tier list?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Because there's no such thing as a final tier list and people like debating <_<

 

[-ACE-]

Dark Sonic, my statement is not bull**** buddy. I said "A Ganon with good DI usually won't be hit more than 2 or 3 times tops." I wasn't referring to techchasing when I said this, and if you read back a few pages I actually recommend that Marths should techchase Ganons more and camp for grabs a bit more. If Marth spaces all of his aerials perfectly, is great at techchasing, and uses platforms effectively (which isn't always a walk in the park depending on which stage you're on), sure he can combo Ganon fairly well, but some of you Marth mains seem to act like Ganon is helpless once he's hit or something... and THAT is what I call bull****.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Using platforms in combos is indeed a walk in the park on every level except Pokemon stadium during the water formation. Every other platform setup is pretty much perfect for Marth's fullhop aerial combos. Tech chases from under platforms vary a little based on their height, but combos involving landing on the platform are pretty much the same on every level.

Marth has PLENTY of guaranteed combos without tech chases, tech chases simply add more to it. And the only aerial that would be difficult to space would be the initial hit, spacing during combos is not particularly difficult.

Ganon pretty much IS helpless after he's hit...if you land the CORRECT hit on him. Landing a grab or untipped fair, or a nair on a grounded Ganon doesn't mean much sure, but to say that Marth doesn't USUALLY get more than 2 or 3 hits in a combo is a pretty big exaggeration (unless you think that Kage, Linguini, and Rockcrock are bad Ganons <_<. I still lose to them because they're better than me, but I combo the balls off them when I land a good hit). The problem is finishing the combo, not getting damage out of it, which is a completely different argument. Normally a Ganon can avoid any kind of finisher just by DIing up and away the whole time, making Marth chase him up to continue the combo. So then Marth has to finish the combo with a uair because Ganon just isn't in position to be hit by anything else. Sure he's still above Marth which is a bad place to be, but he's not dead and likely still has his double jump to play around with.

 

[-ACE-]

I'd like to see some vids of Kage/Linguini getting 0-deathed by marth without techchasing. I'm not questioning that's it's possible, I know it is. But it almost makes me want to say, "once Ganon gets a grab on Fox the stock is done, since Ganon has a guaranteed chaingrab on Fox from 34 to 250 (death) at any DI. Although the chaingrab I'm talking about is much harder than marth 0-deathing a Ganon with great DI, niether of them happen very often, even at top level play.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd like to see some vids of Kage/Linguini getting 0-deathed by marth without techchasing. I'm not questioning that's it's possible, I know it is. But it almost makes me want to say, "once Ganon gets a grab on Fox the stock is done, since Ganon has a guaranteed chaingrab on Fox from 34 to 250 (death) at any DI. Although the chaingrab I'm talking about is much harder than marth 0-deathing a Ganon with great DI, niether of them happen very often, even at top level play.

When did I ever say 0-death? The combos I'm talking about do about 60-70% if there are platforms involved. Tech chases and juggle traps (keeping a string going simply because you can cover their options from below them) just make it longer.

And they don't come off a grab, they come off a fair >_>. They are simply MUCH longer than 2-3 hits, which is why I said your statement was incorrect. Marth can follow ANY DI off of a tipped fair/a falling uair/ a falling tipped dair/a non hilted uptilt/non hilted dash attack from ground level, a hilted or tipped fair/a nair/a uair/a non hilted uptilt at SH height (meaning Ganon is in the air and Marth SHs to meet him), or hilted bair/a hilted or tipped fair (you have to tip Ganon with the top part of fair to land any additional hit though) at fullhop height.

And this is all WITHOUT platforms. You just mix these around in reaction to your opponents DI and you can get 5-6 easily hits before ever having to go for any tech chases or juggle traps.


Comboing Ganon is easy. Landing the hit to let you get a combo is the hard part. Ganon has a decent defense just because he can compete with Marth's range and hits harder. Surprisingly, he also does better under pressure against Marth than vice versa.