The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
I do.
10 chars
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Gotem City Vigilante
I see, I guess you weren't claiming 0-death lol. I'm guessing the window (percent wise) for him to follow a tipped fair at any DI is pretty small.
Fortress | Sveet
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Actually he can't, its funny. His "best" way to get out is to DI away tech away, and that still pretty easy to cover.
Literally every stock is a 0-death unless i'm ******* around or making lots of mistakes. Even if i make 1 mistake, i can usually just cover it without losing the combo, which is even funnier. All you do is get 1 hit, then follow it with another hit (nair and fair link together perfectly at low percents) and keep doing that until you can get a fsmash, grab or he DIs off stage. Then you edge guard. How do you edgeguard? how ever you want. ganon can't sweetspot and he can't go up. he downb's and you can spike him without thinking twice. I spiked my friend out of his downb enough so that he only does it when he sees i can't punish it. you can also spike his upb, which is a lot more effective than fsmashing him until he dies. You can jump off the stage and fair/bair him out of his jump too, which is fun. As long as you are always prepared to tech a defending uair or up, you aren't at risk.
My friend plays tournaments regularly and always takes games off of cosmo when they play in tournament (who is top5 in the MW right now). I also beat another ganon main that is fairly good in tournament last weekend and now he quit ganon for fox.
Ok sounds goodI seriously hope I can MM your marth with Ganon one day.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
i'll mm sveets marth with my falcon for $100
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Sveet, stop posting, you're making me look bad <_<. Play better Ganons and you'll see that edgeguarding him isn't 100% foolproof, nor is getting your combos to end in that edgeguarding situation in the first place.
All I'm saying is that Marth combos very well, well enough in fact for him to more than make up for his other weaknesses in the matchup. Even matchup or in Marth's favor imo.
Sveet.....quit exaggerating. Good Ganons don't DI off stage, they DI up so that you don't get to finish the combo in anything meaningful. It may seem counter intuitive to let yourself get beat in the face over and over, but it's really the most effective thing to do against Marth's combos BECAUSE he can followup when you DI away anyway. Tell your friend to watch what you're doing and DI accordingly. Take into account these factors
1. Did he dash before jumping?
2. Is it tipped or untipped?
3. Is he falling or rising?
DIing Marth's combos is a little complicated, but you can minimize the damage and avoid getting set up for an edgeguard with good DI at various points in the combo. It's still a lot of damage, but to say that Marth constantly zero to deaths Ganon is an overstatement as bad as the one I was debating with earlier.
Actually, the window is VERY large. A shffl'd tipped fair can be followed at any DI from 0-90ish%. The only thing that changes is what I follow with (and what can be done after those subsequent hits).
All I'm saying is that Marth combos very well, well enough in fact for him to more than make up for his other weaknesses in the matchup. Even matchup or in Marth's favor imo.
Sveet.....quit exaggerating. Good Ganons don't DI off stage, they DI up so that you don't get to finish the combo in anything meaningful. It may seem counter intuitive to let yourself get beat in the face over and over, but it's really the most effective thing to do against Marth's combos BECAUSE he can followup when you DI away anyway. Tell your friend to watch what you're doing and DI accordingly. Take into account these factors
1. Did he dash before jumping?
2. Is it tipped or untipped?
3. Is he falling or rising?
DIing Marth's combos is a little complicated, but you can minimize the damage and avoid getting set up for an edgeguard with good DI at various points in the combo. It's still a lot of damage, but to say that Marth constantly zero to deaths Ganon is an overstatement as bad as the one I was debating with earlier.
X1-12
Smash Champion
Fortress | Sveet
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Aiiight sonic, i can't say if i've played a ganon thats done that or not. The main point is still true, and were saying the same thing. Marth out punishes ganon.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
Sveet, you should watch M2k's marth vs Chaddd's ganon from winterfest. M2k did not 0-death him at all (at least from what I remember lol), and M2k also missed a few edgeguards. Chaddd beat M2k's marth that match but then Chaddd had to switch to Fox to prevent getting counterpicked. Basically what I'm saying is that Ganon vs Marth isn't as bad as you think. Ganon has 1-2 options to get back to the stage against marth, and Ganon can also punish just as hard as Marth by getting a few hits and then edgeguarding.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think a ganon with good DI can escape simple marth combos such as fair to dair.
edit:
I just watched m2k vs chaddd and m2k missed one edgeguard but killed him anyways.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think a ganon with good DI can escape simple marth combos such as fair to dair.
edit:
I just watched m2k vs chaddd and m2k missed one edgeguard but killed him anyways.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Lets be real here. Who doesnt marth combo well?
Fair is that universal move. You can use it to combo everyone if the situation is right.
Nobody is saying marth doesnt have plently of options in the matchup, I just think ganon has to do a little less work. Fair is great for damage It can kill at 200ishes but marth needs to get kill moves in which is not a cake walk without tech chasing, which most characters can do. Ganon can kill with his jab, its just the diff in a single hit.
I think its just slightly in ganons favor. Not to mention if you can get under those fairs because marth extends his hitbox. You will win off trading hits.
Ganon just hits hard. I think he has a more direct and final approach to edgeguarding. Hit them and they Die vs marths I have sooo many options Ill just choose one and see what happens.
Fair is that universal move. You can use it to combo everyone if the situation is right.
Nobody is saying marth doesnt have plently of options in the matchup, I just think ganon has to do a little less work. Fair is great for damage It can kill at 200ishes but marth needs to get kill moves in which is not a cake walk without tech chasing, which most characters can do. Ganon can kill with his jab, its just the diff in a single hit.
I think its just slightly in ganons favor. Not to mention if you can get under those fairs because marth extends his hitbox. You will win off trading hits.
Ganon just hits hard. I think he has a more direct and final approach to edgeguarding. Hit them and they Die vs marths I have sooo many options Ill just choose one and see what happens.
Fortress | Sveet
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uhh what? fair combos into fsmash, and with edgeguarding ganon's stock should be done by 80% (the final death will probably be a lot higher depending on how long you keep fsmashing him as he comes back; i quit fsmashing when i spent 60 seconds edge guarding ganon, now i dair)
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
I would love to play your Marth Sveet.
Fortress | Sveet
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Lets do it. I'm near chicago, come to SMYM and we'll play.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
The situation is right every single time you land a tipped fair though (and this happens pretty often really). Only thing that changes is what you get from it.
Marth does have to work harder in the matchup to get his kills. But working harder=/=having a disadvantage. When Marth DOESN'T MESS UP he's deadly effective (Marth has plenty of room for error in both his combos and his edgeguarding, which are defining points of the matchup for him). Ganon has just as much trouble landing hits on a good Marth as vice versa. They have the same range you know <_<. They both have approaches that are safe on block and fairly safe on whiff. They both get a lot of reward for successful approaches (though Marth has to work harder for that reward, but in the end he gets more from it). It's not like Ganon outclasses Marth in any particular aspect, so saying that Ganon has the advantage is a little strange to me.
Marth having soooo many options for edgeguarding is a blessing, not a curse. You have many options that will ALL KILL, so it doesn't MATTER which one you pick. You're afraid the Ganon will tech on stage edgeguards? Go off stage instead of waiting there like an idiot hoping this non foolproof option will work. Having more edgeguards does not mean you'll be choosing inferior options (they are simply not options at the time), it means that you will have options in situations where you otherwise would not. You jabbed him near the edge and he's now off stage? You have a few on stage options you can use very quickly. He missed his edgeguard against you? You have some ledgehop options you can use after you recover. He's recovering high? You have some platform options to use to force him down. And after all these typical edgeguarding situations, Marth still has ledge traps for if Ganon DID grab the ledge. You will be in POSITION to edgeguard more often, and thus be capable of getting kills more often. TL;DR more options is ALWAYS a good thing, so long as you take time to evaluate them out of game so you know which options are appropriate for each situation.
Marth extending his hurtbox only applies when he misses. With Marth's superior ground AND air mobility, with equal range and faster startup, he's technically the one who should be in control of the spacing throughout the match. Being outspaced by a Ganondorf means the PLAYER outspaced you, not that Ganon as a character outspaces Marth. But of course, these things happen and the players will outspace each other throughout the match. Then we look at what each character gets from it, and it's clear that Marth not only combos Ganon better from landing hits, but also KILLS better on average because, while for both characters the opponent is sent off stage to be edgeguarded, Marth edgeguards Ganon better than vice versa.
THAT's where Marth gets his slight advantage from. It's that when Marth lands a hit, he's more likely to get a kill from it directly through edgeguarding than if Ganon lands a hit. Ganon will rely on his weaker edgeguarding, or rely on ledge traps AFTER Marth gets the ledge in order to get a kill, which are not as consistent or flexible as Marth's strategies.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Lol, sveet. Fair CAN combo into fmash. Its alot harder at kill percents.
So I guess ur saying ganon never recovers vs you. You **** every ganon out there and you sir are the ganon slayer.
welcome to team gurren baby.
@dark sonic, im just having fun messing with sveet. But you have a very valid point.
So I guess ur saying ganon never recovers vs you. You **** every ganon out there and you sir are the ganon slayer.
welcome to team gurren baby.
@dark sonic, im just having fun messing with sveet. But you have a very valid point.
Fortress | Sveet
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koastar lets mm, my marth your ganon. $200. advantaged matchup for ganon should mean easy money mirite?
S.R. XXVII
Smash Ace
SMYM? I can't say if I can make that or not. I'll be at Apex though. Come to that.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
I'll do it sveet
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
*sigh*
Well, at least I convinced the person I wanted to convince. Sveet's post would probably be more entertaining to me if I wasn't ashamed to be arguing on the same side as him <_<
Well, at least I convinced the person I wanted to convince. Sveet's post would probably be more entertaining to me if I wasn't ashamed to be arguing on the same side as him <_<
john!
Smash Hero
**** just got real! lol
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
You should mm a ganon player. Or at least somebody who plays ganon. The only thing I do with ganon is moonwalk across FD and dreamland.
for one thing it was considered to be slight, so by no means is a slight advantage easy money.
Plus if you were trying to prove a point you would still fail. One match between two players with lacking juxtaposition in skill doesnt prove anything.
Get em
lol Sorry for wasting your time
X1-12
Smash Champion
Watch it! Sveet is the best player in the world!
john!
Smash Hero
You're in trouble, Sveet. See this?
He's a Smash MASTER.
If there's one thing I've learned throughout my Smash career, it's this: Don't **** with a Smash Master.
He's a Smash MASTER.
If there's one thing I've learned throughout my Smash career, it's this: Don't **** with a Smash Master.
Fortress | Sveet
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nah, nowhere near.
I think a lot of the problem of this discussion came from what you consider a combo. I consider it a combo basically until the opponent can get a hit in or gain some stage control back. For actual combos and juggles in the air, no marth doesnt 0-death ganon often. If marth gets a regular combo on say YS, he can get ganon into bad stage position yet out of the true combo. The bad stage position can be severely exploited by marth on that stage in particular, and to varying degrees on other stages.
edit- @john LOL. I have him on block so i don't even have to read his ******** posts lmao
I think a lot of the problem of this discussion came from what you consider a combo. I consider it a combo basically until the opponent can get a hit in or gain some stage control back. For actual combos and juggles in the air, no marth doesnt 0-death ganon often. If marth gets a regular combo on say YS, he can get ganon into bad stage position yet out of the true combo. The bad stage position can be severely exploited by marth on that stage in particular, and to varying degrees on other stages.
edit- @john LOL. I have him on block so i don't even have to read his ******** posts lmao
SyOn
Smash Journeyman
hej john, I don't know if you noticed but
Sveet is also a Smash MASTER.
I think he knows what he's doing.
Sveet is also a Smash MASTER.
I think he knows what he's doing.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
lmfao the ignore function totally ruins the fundamentals of discussion. i doubt he's using it anyways, just saying he is to look cool
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFZhIKrLVlc
I'm just going to leave this here...
I'm just going to leave this here...
You are playing terrible Ganons.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Oh god, that's painful to watch.
otg
Smash Master
This kids ganon is pretty good.
KoldSmasher
Smash Rookie
hi guy's good stuff
though I would give it a 9.70 to falco, before the sheik
though I would give it a 9.70 to falco, before the sheik
xbombr
Smash Ace
The best part is that I don't see 4 0-death combos to end the match. It took like 4 minutes and he lost 3 stocks.
Yeah this is definitely a **** match up.
Fortress | Sveet
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3 months ago and not the match im talking about anyways........
w/e you guys are all douchebags anyways so idc
w/e you guys are all douchebags anyways so idc
BBQ°
Smash Champion
double post my bad
BBQ°
Smash Champion
in sveet's defense those matches are considered old to him since he's improved a lot
but that's besides the point
sveet is still not good enough to 0-death ganon 4 times a match so he shouldn't be talking lol
but that's besides the point
sveet is still not good enough to 0-death ganon 4 times a match so he shouldn't be talking lol
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
yeah a lot of people can be douchebags, but you aren't helping by digging yourself deeper into the ground by denying the fact that it's a close matchup. >_>
X1-12
Smash Champion
Fortress | Sveet
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i never said it wasn't? i agree its fairly close.
X1-12
Smash Champion
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