KrIsP!
Smash Champion
The question is where to place Yoshi, before or after the gap?
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
If there is doubt about Yoshi, then the gap can't be that massive.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
For all his troubles, I actually have a rather high opinion of Falcon. An incredible dash dance, nutty killing power, an up-air that invalidates entire characters, and aerial mobility that amplifies his already crazy power to build momentum. A great character no doubt, and if the top 3 didn't exist, maybe the very best.
But they do and so he is where he is. Not a bad spot to be sure, hes still high tier, but just look how badly Samus gets penalized for the Sheik (and to a lesser extent the Marth) matchup despite being competitive with the spacies and outright beating ICs. There's a point of comparison there, and thats to a character I still place a tier below; Falcon has so much development and so many players yet, 12 years into the metagame, hes still banging his head against the same walls. You can point to the players all you want, and its true they are probably not as skilled as the people above them regardless, but its obvious just from watching footage how hard Falcon has to work to win. The top 3 matchups are too common to ignore.
Also, I think the stagelist is horrible for him (2 of Fountain, FD, and Yoshis are terrible in any given matchup. And in response he has to cp Battlefield or something...)
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As for Pikachu, I am completely baffled that the popular opinion places him so low. It actually makes no sense. I don't understand how people can watch Axe's matches and walk away still calling that character low tier.
Pikachu is the best gimper in the game, hands down. Backthrow sends characters extremely far, and the little roll Pika does (so cute!) allows the gimp to be a threat even near center stage. Pika doesn't even have to worry about jump->aerial to the extent other characters do (see: the Marth boards *****ing about it), and, similar to Falcon, his raw speed and momentum allows him to nullify firefox options on reaction. This reduces spacie recoveries to mostly illusion above the stage, which is a big step up from the hand-wringing Marths/Sheiks do while managing all the recovery options/angles. Plus, Pika can grab edge so quickly (and with a decent hitbox) with up B shenanigans, and then ledgedash on stage to cover subsequent options.
Oh and on that topic.
His ****ing ledgedash omfg. Like, omfg.
Axe's consistency with that alone has reduced Pikachus classic weakness to a near non factor: its very hard to corner Pikachu and bully him with your range; you've gotta respect the ledgedash. Ledgedash nair, ledgedash usmash, ledgedash grab...all invincible. Thats nuts, and a truly top tier trait (the only character that has a comparably good ledgedash is Fox, and his is harder to do. Sheik and Falco also have good ones, but can't get as much off it).
Couple all this with a fantastic recovery, and you have a character that dominates the edge.
...but its not like Pika is a slouch on stage either. A fantastic dashdance with a very threatening hitbox to back it up (compare that to Falcon) -- nair plows through characters. And after the nair, if Pika spaces it past the shield, its a 50/50 of either holding shield predicting the uair or getting grabbed. And this is a character with the easiest 0-death FD chaingrab in the game...he doesn't even need to edgeguard like Peach is forced to. Theres more depth there too; dtilt and thunderjolt approaches are good against certain characters, and uair leads to meaty conversions on stray hits. So much of his moveset leads to usmash too...a move that kills at 80..
In terms of defensive options, Pika has a godlike tech in place, one of the best OOS options (uair OOS), shielddrop uair, a great usmash OOS, and a decent spotdodge. Sure, Pika's shield isn't too healthy, but the options are there, and thats a lot more than you can say for Falcon.
idk
I'm glossing over some of the weaknesses (can't approach well from platforms, has a tough time covering 45 degrees above him, lack of pure range, no defensive utility moves, etc) but thats mostly because I think the community needs a bit of a reality check. This character is good. Really good. Not low tier. Not mid tier. The current tier list has Pika right next to (regular) Mario and in the same tier as Donkey Kong. An entire tier under Ganon and Samus.
You can agree or disagree about my placing Pika in the same tier as ICs and Falcon, but theres no way Pikachu is a comparable character to ****ing DK.
But they do and so he is where he is. Not a bad spot to be sure, hes still high tier, but just look how badly Samus gets penalized for the Sheik (and to a lesser extent the Marth) matchup despite being competitive with the spacies and outright beating ICs. There's a point of comparison there, and thats to a character I still place a tier below; Falcon has so much development and so many players yet, 12 years into the metagame, hes still banging his head against the same walls. You can point to the players all you want, and its true they are probably not as skilled as the people above them regardless, but its obvious just from watching footage how hard Falcon has to work to win. The top 3 matchups are too common to ignore.
Also, I think the stagelist is horrible for him (2 of Fountain, FD, and Yoshis are terrible in any given matchup. And in response he has to cp Battlefield or something...)
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As for Pikachu, I am completely baffled that the popular opinion places him so low. It actually makes no sense. I don't understand how people can watch Axe's matches and walk away still calling that character low tier.
Pikachu is the best gimper in the game, hands down. Backthrow sends characters extremely far, and the little roll Pika does (so cute!) allows the gimp to be a threat even near center stage. Pika doesn't even have to worry about jump->aerial to the extent other characters do (see: the Marth boards *****ing about it), and, similar to Falcon, his raw speed and momentum allows him to nullify firefox options on reaction. This reduces spacie recoveries to mostly illusion above the stage, which is a big step up from the hand-wringing Marths/Sheiks do while managing all the recovery options/angles. Plus, Pika can grab edge so quickly (and with a decent hitbox) with up B shenanigans, and then ledgedash on stage to cover subsequent options.
Oh and on that topic.
His ****ing ledgedash omfg. Like, omfg.
Axe's consistency with that alone has reduced Pikachus classic weakness to a near non factor: its very hard to corner Pikachu and bully him with your range; you've gotta respect the ledgedash. Ledgedash nair, ledgedash usmash, ledgedash grab...all invincible. Thats nuts, and a truly top tier trait (the only character that has a comparably good ledgedash is Fox, and his is harder to do. Sheik and Falco also have good ones, but can't get as much off it).
Couple all this with a fantastic recovery, and you have a character that dominates the edge.
...but its not like Pika is a slouch on stage either. A fantastic dashdance with a very threatening hitbox to back it up (compare that to Falcon) -- nair plows through characters. And after the nair, if Pika spaces it past the shield, its a 50/50 of either holding shield predicting the uair or getting grabbed. And this is a character with the easiest 0-death FD chaingrab in the game...he doesn't even need to edgeguard like Peach is forced to. Theres more depth there too; dtilt and thunderjolt approaches are good against certain characters, and uair leads to meaty conversions on stray hits. So much of his moveset leads to usmash too...a move that kills at 80..
In terms of defensive options, Pika has a godlike tech in place, one of the best OOS options (uair OOS), shielddrop uair, a great usmash OOS, and a decent spotdodge. Sure, Pika's shield isn't too healthy, but the options are there, and thats a lot more than you can say for Falcon.
idk
I'm glossing over some of the weaknesses (can't approach well from platforms, has a tough time covering 45 degrees above him, lack of pure range, no defensive utility moves, etc) but thats mostly because I think the community needs a bit of a reality check. This character is good. Really good. Not low tier. Not mid tier. The current tier list has Pika right next to (regular) Mario and in the same tier as Donkey Kong. An entire tier under Ganon and Samus.
You can agree or disagree about my placing Pika in the same tier as ICs and Falcon, but theres no way Pikachu is a comparable character to ****ing DK.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Haha, I want to pick up Pikachu now. Good job 
(I personally think Pikachu should be in the Samus / Doc tier)
(I personally think Pikachu should be in the Samus / Doc tier)
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I would say Yoshi is more likely to be considered above the massive gap at higher play, the only problem with him is he plays so differently. I think when a Yoshi player could have reasonably good parrying consistency, and shield drop as well as most players can jump out of shield, then he is definitely above that gap. Add in comfort with DJC and ECE and other little Yoshi things that aren't a big deal, but add up to make a difference, and you'll get a mid-level character.
That being said, I'm biased.
Yoshi also has the best sounds.
That being said, I'm biased.
Yoshi also has the best sounds.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
>marth above peach
>pika above falcon
I read your reasoning. for what its worth tho, I think it's silly that you (and others?) have pika so high based on the performance of axe alone, but everyone simply refuses to advance peach because "hurr durr, armada is just too good, he doesn't count".
Additionally, I think axe's performances with pika aren't any more impressive than hax's and s2j's performances with falcon, or kage's with ganon. they might be around the same. I agree pika isn't ****ing dk tho lol
Bones0
Smash Legend
Called that one.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i wrote that definition, and i still stand by it.
it's okay to abstain rather than to vote with ignorance.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
S- Fox/Falco
A-Sheik, Peach
B-Marth, Puff, IC's
C-Pikachu, Falcon
D-Doc, Samus, Ganon, Luigi, Mario
E-DK, Link, Young Link, Yoshi
F-Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy, Ness
Z-Bowser, G&W, Kirby/Pichu
A-Sheik, Peach
B-Marth, Puff, IC's
C-Pikachu, Falcon
D-Doc, Samus, Ganon, Luigi, Mario
E-DK, Link, Young Link, Yoshi
F-Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy, Ness
Z-Bowser, G&W, Kirby/Pichu
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I wonder if there has been anyone who defends some character over fox/falco at all.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Iirc M2k has the top 3 as follows:
Falco
Puff
Fox
no bias there at all. Never.
Falco
Puff
Fox
no bias there at all. Never.
MountainGoat
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2012
- Messages
- 247
I like this one. I might put Marth a bit lower and Pikachu is really hard to place but I like how the levels are put together.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Wow didn't notice Vudu's list but it's almost exaclty what I had in mind save for small differences with G&W, Puff and Pika but other than that I agree fully with it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik is close enough to spacies.
I mean if you really want to put her at her own tier or something because her macro game that slaughters bad characters requires her to grab them rather than jump and follow a really simple option tree then fine but I think her ground game / SH game > grab is good enough and about as brain-dead.
Her MU with Peach is better, with Marth is better, with Falcon is similar, goes even with the space furries, and loses to Puff and ICs. She then beats Samus soundly, is good vs Pika (Falco might be comparable), and ***** the rest of mid tier and below. This is a comparable MU spread to the spacies.
With the lack of exploitable stages I truly feel Sheik is on par with them. Sheik sucks on moving levels and platform only stages but those don't exist in this ruleset. It's all the style of fighting she handles well. We might as well act like it.
I mean if you really want to put her at her own tier or something because her macro game that slaughters bad characters requires her to grab them rather than jump and follow a really simple option tree then fine but I think her ground game / SH game > grab is good enough and about as brain-dead.
Her MU with Peach is better, with Marth is better, with Falcon is similar, goes even with the space furries, and loses to Puff and ICs. She then beats Samus soundly, is good vs Pika (Falco might be comparable), and ***** the rest of mid tier and below. This is a comparable MU spread to the spacies.
With the lack of exploitable stages I truly feel Sheik is on par with them. Sheik sucks on moving levels and platform only stages but those don't exist in this ruleset. It's all the style of fighting she handles well. We might as well act like it.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Fletch
Smash Master
You think she has a better matchup with Peach over Fox? I can see over Falco. Also, you don't think she's a very slight disadvantage to both Fox and Falco?
Everything else I agree with, think Sheik is a clear third.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
I think she has a better matchup against peach than fox in NTSC at least...in pal sheik sucks
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Most matchups within the top 6 or so are pretty damn close to even to say for sure if they go one way or another, but I can see where KK is coming from that Sheik can go genuinely even with the space furries. She has one of the most diverse ways of securing hits among the cast, and has more than good enough rewards for her hits.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
I really only put sheik below them because of the tier list definition. Her results and MU's are great, just not as great as the spacies atm. Plus she and Peach get along famously.
Peach and sheik do get along famously
A tier : Fox shiek falco
B tier : Puff, Peach, Marth
C tier : Ice climbers, tajs mewtwo, falcon
D tier : Doc, Pika, samus, mario, ganon, Luigi , DK
Truth tier : Zelda Link
E tier : Young link, Mewtwo, Bowser
Bad tier : Roy, Gnw, Ness, Kirby, Pichu
A tier : Fox shiek falco
B tier : Puff, Peach, Marth
C tier : Ice climbers, tajs mewtwo, falcon
D tier : Doc, Pika, samus, mario, ganon, Luigi , DK
Truth tier : Zelda Link
E tier : Young link, Mewtwo, Bowser
Bad tier : Roy, Gnw, Ness, Kirby, Pichu
Stevo
Smash Champion
anyone else think Mario is actually better than Samus?
Van.
Smash Ace
think it's bout time for a list update
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Another list where Yoshi is neglected. Sad day.
Look out for the new MBR backed version of Melee SDR, which fixes the only real problem in melee, the fact that Yoshi was in it.
Bad Cupboard
Smash Apprentice
What's a yoshi
Fortress | Sveet
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His shield game is actually pretty decent even without being able to jump out of it. Vman abuses shield drops on platforms quite a bit. Also he has parrying.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I demand the new list please.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Yoshi's light shield is stupid.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Don't get confused, vman isn't the only yoshi who abuses shield drops and parries, he is simply the only yoshi that you saw do it in a combo video. Pretty much every yoshi should shield drop and parry.
Yoshi in his shield has several options to get around things, but overall can be in a bad position when he shields. Although it isn't like everyone else can just throw their shield around.
Yoshi is in trouble when he shields, but some characters like falcon are too.
Mostly yoshi hopes his opponent does something silly to the shield, messes up pressure, makes a bad option, etc.
Also remember his lack of shield stun makes rolls and dodges quicker, and he can parry out of them. His lack of shield stun also limits the attacks his opponent can use, for example if gannnnon dairs yoshi s shield, yoshi can just release shield and d smash him.
Yoshi in his shield has several options to get around things, but overall can be in a bad position when he shields. Although it isn't like everyone else can just throw their shield around.
Yoshi is in trouble when he shields, but some characters like falcon are too.
Mostly yoshi hopes his opponent does something silly to the shield, messes up pressure, makes a bad option, etc.
Also remember his lack of shield stun makes rolls and dodges quicker, and he can parry out of them. His lack of shield stun also limits the attacks his opponent can use, for example if gannnnon dairs yoshi s shield, yoshi can just release shield and d smash him.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I am so confused
Why are there two terms both called shield dropping?
Why are there two terms both called shield dropping?
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
That's a good question. But even if we rename one of them, people will still get confused because the name fits both equally well, and if you don't know which is which, you'll just assume the first one that pops into your head.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I always assume "Shield Drop" is when you drop your shield. Call me crazy. Especially makes sense concerning Yoshi since it's usually his only OoS option.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But what if you drop from your shield? that's where the confusion lies.
I'm pretty sure that actually has a different name though, i just can't remember it atm.
I'm pretty sure that actually has a different name though, i just can't remember it atm.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
We have it listed on the ssbwiki that shielding and then platform passing while in-shield is called "Shield Platform Dropping," but the wiki also says the technique is only in Smash64 and Brawl lolol. Our wiki seriously lacks information on anything remotely important.
At least it's better than the wikia networks smash wiki.
At least it's better than the wikia networks smash wiki.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
When I replease the shield button I call it releasing my shield, like in my above post. I call shield dropping is dropping through the platform while in shield(and that is what I think most people consider as well.) Good options Yoshi has while shielding, in order of frequency that I use them: shield drop(when applicable) >>> roll/spot dodge -> parry/D-smash/jab/buffered lightshield/etc > releasing shield.
Fortress | Sveet
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Working on it, kinda. Got pretty distracted by AGDQ
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Is the new list still going to have splits based on character Mean deviation from one another? Because I just mean that's really silly to base splits on. All Mean difference shows is that some characters are closer to being agreed upon than others in their order, and not a reflection of where character viability makes a jump. Especially seems counterintuitive when an onlooker is trying to interpret the tier list and sees that Falcon is a "Whole tier" better than Ice Climbers.