Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

Meh. Forget it.

But you're right, Blistering, and I understand what you're saying.

 

[Fletch]

What top player would argue that matchups don't matter at the top level? We know M2K talks about it constantly, Armada refuses to play Hbox with his main because of the matchup, we've seen Mango counterpick with characters when he cared, and we have seen even a diehard main like PP switch to Marth against M2K at Zenith. I'm sure the other top players would all agree that matchups are pretty damn huge at top level as well, but I think this is too ridiculous for them to even have to address this.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If I may, shouded.

As near as I can tell, he's not trying to say matchups and counterpicks don't matter.

But

Matchup numbers don't mean ****.

At low level they don't matter because they "assume top level play for both characters," and at top level play matchup numbers are absolutely worthless because at that point in the metagame, you're more trying to outsmart and prey on your opponent's weaknesses, not their character's. No top player is ever going to say "Yeah I thought I was going to lose, but then I remembered Dhalsim Rufus is a 7:3 matchup!" (I know nothing of SF's matchup numbers, this is an example). Matchup numbers mean nothing significant for any level of play. Instead, knowing the ins and outs of the matchup itself is important (What can this character do, how can I avoid it, what can my character do, how can I hit them with it).

 

[JPOBS]

Nobody would contest that. Your original statement, however, is this:

Two very different things.

EDIT: And as for the lack of elaboration, I'm not going to patronize you and JPOBS (though he appears to have completely back tracked on this immediately so whatever) with an explanation of the existence and significance of match-ups. It's a fundamental of the genre.

?
I was never in argeement with ShroudedOne. If you read back on the full argument, my original point is that matchups are in fact most important at top level.

I was saying that stuff about not being important at lower levels to prove a point. If matchups allegedly don't matter at top level, then they don't matter at all.

 

[MountainGoat]

So how often is the Tier list updated? The previous tier lists have been updated at least every two years and we're past that point now. I think I remember hearing something about how the MBR was messed up somehow and can't accept new members, does that have something to do with it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have a completed 2012 tier list but nobody wanted it released

 

[MountainGoat]

I have a completed 2012 tier list but nobody wanted it released

Why not?

10chars

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why not?

10chars

Because it wasn't my list.

 

[The Star King]

KirbyKaze is becoming more arrogant by the day... I like it

 

[iRobinhoood]

i have a completed 2012 tier list but nobody wanted it released

release the kraken

 

[Bones0]

They probably didn't want to release it because it's the same as 2010's.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I demand a release of said classified documents.

 

[Armada]

Matchups at top level is very important. Top players are top players because of many different reasons.
One of those is the fact they understand the game much better then other players. Understand what makes a char good/bad is one way to realize how to play against the char.

Even between the top chars it is MUs you really need to outplay the other player (with top chars I mean top 8). But yeah it is even more important for the ones in the lower part of top 8 (Peach,ICs and Falcon) cause those have more bad MUs and some that is bad for sure.

Also remember the fact that the better the players get the harder it is to get away with simple stuff and some chars have more/better options so it becomes even harder.

 

[Deleted member]

Because it wasn't my list.

yeah pretty much.

your list is pretty spot on.

 

[john!]

> nobody wants the new tier list released
> tier lists are decided by voting

something doesn't add up

 

[Mahone]

Matchups at top level is very important. Top players are top players because of many different reasons.
One of those is the fact they understand the game much better then other players. Understand what makes a char good/bad is one way to realize how to play against the char.

Even between the top chars it is MUs you really need to outplay the other player (with top chars I mean top 8). But yeah it is even more important for the ones in the lower part of top 8 (Peach,ICs and Falcon) cause those have more bad MUs and some that is bad for sure.

Also remember the fact that the better the players get the harder it is to get away with simple stuff and some chars have more/better options so it becomes even harder.

can i get some friendlies at apex, i wanna test some secondaries vs ylink and maybe try puff again but that was too brutal last time

we can make it a mm if u want

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I demand a release of said classified documents.

Hmm very tempting. I guess I lied when I said its completed, though. I have all the votes, I just need to compile it and format. I will put it on my list of things to do, but pestering me to get it finished sooner always helps too haha

 

[KrIsP!]

can i get some friendlies at apex, i wanna test some secondaries vs ylink and maybe try puff again but that was too brutal last time

we can make it a mm if u want

wtf? Are you goin or trolling?

 

[Mahone]

ya i got a ride

 

[Armada]

can i get some friendlies at apex, i wanna test some secondaries vs ylink and maybe try puff again but that was too brutal last time

we can make it a mm if u want

Ofc we can play some friendlis!

 

[Tarv]

I was bored and decided to make my own tier list. I've done it several times before but this is the first time I thought about it pretty extensively and considered all MUs not just the important ones determined by tournament frequency. I ended up doing a 25 match round robin where all possible matches were considered. I understand that this is an inherently flawed way of doing a tier list because the ability of a character to wreck low tiers isn't really as important as handling higher tiers in a tournament setting. Nevertheless, this seemed to be the most accurate way of considering all angles of a character in terms of tier placement. So it goes without saying that my tier list isn't really tournament based (which hopefully answers why Peach is so low) Also, keep in mind that, I've never thought about a lot of these MUs and don't have a lot of knowledge or a real strong opinion about them. So anyways, here it is I imagine all of you are going to disagree to some point and I'm ok with that; just let me know what you think and don't be too mean:

Fox/Falco
Shiek

JigglyPuff
Marth

Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

Ice Climbers

Samus
Peach
Dr. Mario
Pikachu

Young Link
Link
Luigi
Mario

Mewtwo
Zelda
Roy

Donkey Kong
Ness
Yoshi
Mr. Game and Watch

Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

Here are the matches and what I choose in more detail if anyone is interested. Note: I think the Falco/Peach MU is even, not in peach's favor: http://challonge.com/ssbmcharacters

 

[Blistering Speed]

Is there any discernible reason everyone, en mass, has returned to putting Sheik > Puff? Hungrybox, as an individual, getting consistently stomped on by Mango and Dr PeePee this past year isn't justification.

 

[Landry]

wtf @ your Peach placement...

 

[Tarv]

Yeah, I figured people were going to have a problem with her placement more so than others. Thing is, my tier list isnt based off of tourney results like MBR list is but on a MU by MU basis, even those against characters that aren't tournament viable. So another character may win a bunch of mid-tier MUs but not do too hot against the top tiers and let's be honest if you're character has a disadvantage against fox or falco you're going to have trouble regardless of how badly your character wreck mid or low tiers. That's why my tier list and the MBR list are pretty different, I weigh all the matches equally. While for obvious reasons most tier lists weigh matches in different variables, because honestly beating falco is more viable than taking out Link for example.

Also, I think peach as a character is a bit overrated. I think it's more that guys like Armada are amazing at this game, than peach being really good. In my honest opinion I think peach is at a disadvantage against: Link, Fox, Marth, Shiek, Captain Falcon, Young Link, Jigglypuff, and goes even with Ganondorf and Dr. Mario.
Anyways just my two cents.

 

[The Business]

ganondorf 6th...
peach 9th...

thats the part that makes the least sense to me. I play some ganondorf, and ganon ***** noobs, and gets 0-deathed by good people.

i like the jiggs placement though,.

 

[Tarv]

Well, I'm certainly not going to pretend that the round robin tournament system breakdown I did is flawless. And I've already mentioned that the way I did it is inherently flawed but it's the only way I could think of to consider all aspects. Maybe I should do an edited lists that does not weigh all matches equally and takes into consideration how viable a character's MU advantages/disadvantages are? I imagine that the results of that one would be less mind boggling.

I guess the only justification I can offer other than I just mentioned above is that "ease of use" was one of the minor factors I used in determining placement as well. Peach is a fairly difficult character to use well and to play her at her best seems like you need to be on your game. While Ganon's gameplay seems to be much more simplistic and straightforward. Also, I admire Ganon's ability to kill with just a few moves. Like I said before though, if this was a less flawed tier list system I would imagine that he would drop a bit and Peach would rise up a few places.

Anyways, here is my updated tier list with the aforementioned adjustments:

Falco
Fox
Shiek

JigglyPuff
Marth
Peach
Captain Falcon

Ice Climbers

Samus
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Pikachu

Young Link
Link
Luigi
Mario

Mewtwo
Zelda
Roy

Donkey Kong
Ness
Yoshi
Mr. Game and Watch

Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

 

[Kimimaru]

Yoshi is better than Ness, Roy, and Mewtwo. He handles top tiers way better than them and has some advantageous and evenish MUs with characters above him, including Marth. Even if you don't think he's better than Roy or Mewtwo, you have to at least place him above Ness.

Also, I think DK should be right under Mario.

 

[Tarv]

Ehh, I can definitely agree that Yoshi could be placed higher than Ness so I might have to rethink that one. But I have a hard time picturing Yoshi above Roy and Mewtwo. My roy placement IS slightly biased because he's basically Little Marth, and being a Marth main I have to show him some love. As for mewtwo I think he handles top/mid tiers fairly well all things considering. I definitely think Yoshi has a lot of potential but I don't think we've seen that full potential as of yet (I think v3ctorman is the exception that proves the rule.)

I do like DK quite a bit, but wasn't sure if placing him too high would be questioned. I may need to rethink it though.

 

[Yobolight]

Is Mewtwo's previous rise in the tier list completely attributable to Taj?

 

[Gea]

Tarv, love your ICs being in their own area.

 

[Tarv]

Heh, thanks. I can't really take credit for that placement though. The MBR list has them in their own tier as well if I remember correctly.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Hmm very tempting. I guess I lied when I said its completed, though. I have all the votes, I just need to compile it and format. I will put it on my list of things to do, but pestering me to get it finished sooner always helps too haha

Sveet please it's been to long since the last tier list <3 I don't know why some people don't agree with the release of a new tier list either. For me it's just something to look at that's interesting, something new. Like an issue of a magazine that you've been waiting for a while to be released.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know why some people don't agree with the release of a new tier list either.

It wasn't released iirc because newer MBR members don't like the older method of evaluating what a tier list actually is. That and we had a lot of members abstain from voting.

The one sveet derived isn't different enough from the current one to matter anyway.

 

[iRobinhoood]

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

What were their interpretations of a tier list? And if you don't vote den why you in da MBR.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Discussion has gotten a little stale/bad so I guess I oughta post my list:

Falco - Fox - Sheik - Marth
Puff - Peach - ICs - Pikachu - Falcon
Doc - Samus
Ganon - Mario - Luigi
Link - Young Link - DK

*massive gap*

Roy - Mewtwo - Zelda - G&W - Ness
Pichu - Kirby - Bowser

unlisted: Yoshi

I'm curious what initial impressions are so I'll hold off justifying my choices until I get some feedback :D

 

[KrIsP!]

Dat falcon placement yo. I feel it's time for falcon to move down and pika to move up but not by that much

 

[iRobinhoood]

Discussion has gotten a little stale/bad so I guess I oughta post my list:

Falco - Fox - Sheik - Marth
Puff - Peach - ICs - Pikachu - Falcon
Doc - Samus
Ganon - Mario - Luigi
Link - Young Link - DK

*massive gap*

Roy - Mewtwo - Zelda - G&W - Ness
Pichu - Kirby - Bowser

unlisted: Yoshi

I'm curious what initial impressions are so I'll hold off justifying my choices until I get some feedback :D

I still think Fox out places Falco in terms of being purely limitless at a top level and by top level I mean near perfection. Puff/Marth to swap spots specifically because Puff has an excellent edgeguard game against him. Pikachu finally getting some respect(this is all assuming top level play).

I enjoyed *massive gap* lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who cares about near perfection?

 

[iRobinhoood]

Fox has da more likelihood to do well in a tournament setting than Falco is wat I'm saiyan.

 

[Xyzz]

Fox is slightly better in terms of raw power, Falco is more consistent.
So if you want to defeat somebody a bit better than you, you're better off with Fox. If you're aiming to never be defeated by lesser players, Falco should be your choice.
Usually.
just my 2cents.

I like TCBs list (I don't agree entirely but there's nothing unreasonable). Especially the MASSIVE GAP is so true <3