Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

Not that he's incapable of ending stocks, but that he's lacking in kill power and guaranteed setups into kills.

I know nothing about Mario/Doc, so I can't speak to it. Sure, Mario's fsmash is decent at ending stocks...what does he have that leads into it, though?

Sure, I exaggerate when I say that Mario is trash, but...

 

[V3ctorMan]

So do I need to prove myself again? to show Yoshi's value... I had done it once, and just tried to move on to other characters, to continue their value....

Must I continue Yoshi's so people believe he's not pure trash..

Because I will if it's necessary... The yoshi is trash talk is painful to here...

 

[Ripple]

I'll help you out Vman

 

[Mahone]

Mario's biggest problem IS killing people, it can get pretty annoying sometimes

his jab combo is awesome though but his fireballs are pretty much useless

im pretty sure that shroomed thing about picking mario because of fsmashes has to be a joke, it really feels like dr.mario has an advantage on mario, mainly because of killing power

As for fsmash, you can honestly just space it and get it to hit because it does have pretty sick range, when you add that to the fact most people don't know its range well on top of his fast wavelands tricks, you can definitely get some naked fsmashes in... i wish the inside hit wasn't so ******** though

Also at high percents if u dthrow fastfallers and they di away u can get fsmash and you can combo upair into fsmash on a lot of characters in a lot of situations

It's not that amazing of a kill move though, because its easy to di even though it is really strong... i mean when you compare it to doc's throw->fair and cape kills, it feels like mario's kill moves are much less reliable, besides bairing them offstage, he doesn't have much... dthrow nair doesn't kill until like 200%, i think you usually have to get a kill of some weird movement trick into like an upsmash on a floaty, or an unexpected dsmash on a spacie

I dunno, im not great with mario, but i just feel like if they di your "kill" moves up and recovery high, he doesn't have good coverage at all

 

[Bones0]

lol @ naked fsmash. I'm so stealing that phrase.


As far as that being a joke, it didn't sound like it. I agree that Doc's fair gives him way more killing options overall, but in the Doc vs. Mario matchup specifically, I don't think he can ever combo into it, and naked fairs are pretty hard to land in general. If I were playing the matchup, I'd much rather have Mario's fsmash than Doc's fair. *shrug*

 

[Mahone]

I wasn't really talking about the fair, more the cape hitting sweetspot upbs, in my experience docs cape tends to trade with mario's upb and mario dies, whereas mario's doesn't hit dr.mario's, but maybe it was just an issue of me and my opponent not knowing the upb spacing/cape timing... i think boss told me thats how it worked though

and the marios' upb is strange... i bet if you perfect magnet you can dodge it since he can do crazy magnet grabs, but idk

Also pills>>>>fireballs

And i personally like nair getting stronger for that mu

I dunno, it just doesn't seem like that fsmash thing would be a big part of the mu, but i don't know the ways of high level doc vs mario

 

[Deleted member]

Mario has lots of ways to kill people. Thats like saying samus can't kill people because she can't dthrow->fsmash to kill.

Of the midtiers, Luigi and Mario have the most potential for improvement, i think both of them have "potentials" around doc's level but aren't as explored/exploited.

And don't take yoshi facts to say more than they are. The theory crafting comes in when you go beyond looking at the facts and begin speculating how well they would work in a match. Personally, I have 0 match-up experience against yoshi so I try to be as factual as I can be while I evaluate him.

Mario has like non-guaranteed smashes or ledge hop invincible aerial....over and over and over until they eventually die. A lack of punishment power is not where you want to be in this tournament scene.

That said, he definitely doesn't have the potential that doc has, and it goes back to the lack of kill power. Doc can get an opponent to 90 or 100, ledge hop aerial, and kill people, while mario has to make gay trades for another 50 damage to get the job done, and it's basically forfeiting percentage points left and right in a direct comparison. So yeah I pretty much agree with everything mahone said.

Can someone explain to me what it is that Falcon lacks in this metagame? I know that he gets comboed/edgeguarded fairly well (as do spacies (sometimes), Sheik, and Marth), but I don't hear anyone talk about his weakness in-depth. Not that I think he has space to move up, or down. I'm really just curious, because I don't know that much about him (just that he's not as good as everyone above him, or as bad as those below).

A way to beat tech in place > shine, a move that favorably and reliably deals with well placed nairs, a way to beat lasers other than roll dodge early > pray. IMO it's pretty much just space animals at this point, and the fact that punishment games have improved so much.

 

[Bones0]

A way to beat tech in place > shine, a move that favorably and reliably deals with well placed nairs, a way to beat lasers other than roll dodge early > pray. IMO it's pretty much just space animals at this point, and the fact that punishment games have improved so much.

I never see Falcons getting hit by tech in place shine...

As far as lasers, shai dropped uairs all day. I can't wait 'til the next time I play on a stream or something. I will just abuse this **** so people can see how bad lasers are vs. Falcon.

 

[Mahone]

His recovery is just soooooooo bad, compared to all the chars above him its a joke... If only he had some options or trick.. Like a hover or a stall or needles or some invul or a shorten or SOMETHING


His only "trick" is getting jump back after downb which is awful and i think people arent comfortable enough at going out there early to hit him in his downb lag, especially when hes off camera but its super easy and if they dont downb u have plenty of time to get back onstage and set up your edgeguard

 

[Divinokage]

So do I need to prove myself again? to show Yoshi's value... I had done it once, and just tried to move on to other characters, to continue their value....

Must I continue Yoshi's so people believe he's not pure trash..

Because I will if it's necessary... The yoshi is trash talk is painful to here...

You'll have to do it 10 times.

 

[Warhawk]

Well theory without the skill to back it up is just like trying to build a flying machine when you don't know how to make it fly in the first place.

But its not as if there aren't any skilled Yoshis, they're just few in number...

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, Kage is right. You should just play Yoshi for the rest of your life. :D

@Mahone
Is wall jumping after up-B not tricky enough for you?!?

 

[Divinokage]

But its not as if there aren't any skilled Yoshis, they're just few in number...

Maybe but only 1 ever, made brackets once.. that's it. All the others talk so much about Yoshi that it just doesn't make much sense anymore.. he's not viable!

 

[Mahone]

Yeah, Kage is right. You should just play Yoshi for the rest of your life. :D

@Mahone
Is wall jumping after up-B not tricky enough for you?!?

Im talking about falcon, sorry i was unclear

 

[Twinkles]

falcon can play some tricks with his up-b: reverse grab the ledge, recover high and drift towards edge/stage, etc. it's not great, but it works

he still gets gimped harder than anyone else in top/high tier tho imo

 

[Bones0]

Im talking about falcon, sorry i was unclear

Maybe I was too. Ever consider that possibility? No, you didn't, because you're close-minded. Think outside the hbox.

 

[Mahone]

falcon can play some tricks with his up-b: reverse grab the ledge, recover high and drift towards edge/stage, etc. it's not great, but it works

he still gets gimped harder than anyone else in top/high tier tho imo

ya his drift is his actual one "trick", also edgecanceling is nice

but man his recovery is so bad still

I have other reasons i think falcon isn't good but i'll hold off cuz apparently there is some theory way to play him thats like super reactive and optimal that no one does, so i'll wait for someone to do that first

@bones: at first i thought u were referring to scar jumping, or some doraki walljump **** i didn't know about

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mario has dthrow->dsmash/fsmash on spacies. Also, his up combos can generally end in a nair or bair which leads to positional advantage (quite valuable). Mario's uair is a better zoning tool than doc's and his dair mixups are better due to the range increase. He can actually bait and punish with his fsmash (something doc can't really do). His fair can be used as a spacing tool due to its low lag, high shield stun and decent range/priority (doc's is more risky to use in this way due to its size and properties).


tl;dr mario is much better at zoning/trapping even though doc can dthrow/uthrow -> fair. It really comes down to how much you value their differing traits.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Couldn't you argue that doc's pills make him better at zoning?

 

[Ripple]

its not a matter of how you value their differing traits because Doc can zone and trap much better than mario due to his pills.

they may zone and trap in different ways but doc still does it better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How does doc trap with his pills? I always considered them more of an annoyance or defensive strategy.

In any case, pills are useful, for sure. I've never played shroomed or the other top docs so i'm not sure if they could be used better than i have seen them used. As it is, I think they only have situational uses (except on FD).

 

[Deleted member]

How does doc trap with his pills? I always considered them more of an annoyance or defensive strategy.

You put them places that you don't want your opponent to go like you would with falco's lasers. then you use their immobility to gain incremental advantage.

moves that stay out can beat pills reliably, but then doc can punish you for putting out a hitbox sometimes. sometimes he just can't. either way it's still really useful. fireballs just kinda blow.

mario is definitely not better at zoning and trapping. even if he were, both lack the speed of the true top tiers to make the best use out of it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If only pills didn't have so much lag. Pills are def better than fireballs, but I don't think either are a good projectile at all.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Neither are good lock down projectiles like falco's lasers but they're both acceptable in terms of defensive control. Rather than being for trapping it would be more correct to say they are simply tools for zoning, a way to force an opponent to approach and approach more on your own terms than their own. To that end Doc's pills are superior in that the arc they have covers space better than Mario's Fireballs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only situation where Pills will completely stop you are if Doc double jumps or jumps off of a platform and spams pills as he is falling.

Then you just kind-of wavedash back, shield, and wavedash in when he lands.

 

[tarheeljks]

Mario has fsmash kills that Doc could never get. When Mango played Shroomed recently in Mario dittos, apparently (I think Lovage or one of the other commentators mentioned this) Shroomed went Mario instead of Doc because in that matchup he gets outranged pretty hard by Mario's fsmash. I also think there are times when Mario's nair is good for knocking people off stage or killing where Doc would have to go for a fair or something else because the beginning of his nair is weak. Mario also has a good dsmash just like Doc.

pretty sure he went mario b/c the crowd was chanting for a mario ditto. and b/c he is a noob

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah it seemed more like a joke to me

 

[TheLake]

Ok so if you can use a projectile and you can gain advantage while RECOVERING

then the projectile is purdy good I reckon

 

[Xyzz]

ya his drift is his actual one "trick", also edgecanceling is nice

but man his recovery is so bad still

edge tech -> instant up b "YESZ" is the best part of his recovery :D

Though of course there's so much room to just hit him before he ever gets to the wall or one could just grab the ledge as he gets there, and then punish his on stage landing lag

 

[knightpraetor]

i think falcon deals fine with tech in place..i think the problem is really just the last two things that make it hard...a way to punish nair pressure that doesn't require room to start a dash away...i think the big thing is that fox takes space easily while falcon has to give space up in order to punish nair properly..not the best of situations against a character who is going to kill you rapidly as soon as you are offstage..

and Falco.. falco has like every tool needed to beat falcon, laser, bair, uptilt, and dair..probably in that order...

but i still believe..someday, falcon will take a national..like when pp and mango retire...

 

[Max?]

Mario has dthrow->dsmash/fsmash on spacies. Also, his up combos can generally end in a nair or bair which leads to positional advantage (quite valuable). Mario's uair is a better zoning tool than doc's and his dair mixups are better due to the range increase. He can actually bait and punish with his fsmash (something doc can't really do). His fair can be used as a spacing tool due to its low lag, high shield stun and decent range/priority (doc's is more risky to use in this way due to its size and properties).


tl;dr mario is much better at zoning/trapping even though doc can dthrow/uthrow -> fair. It really comes down to how much you value their differing traits.

A lot of this is blatantly wrong

 

[The Good Doctor]

Ninja'd...

 

[john!]

Ninja'd...

it's funny cuz you play sheik

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mario has dthrow->dsmash/fsmash on spacies.

He can actually bait and punish with his fsmash (something doc can't really do).

I have edited this post for accuracy.

 

[Purpletuce]

Maybe but only 1 ever, made brackets once.. that's it. All the others talk so much about Yoshi that it just doesn't make much sense anymore.. he's not viable!

So, I don't know anything about Kage personally, although I feel as if I should respect the guy's knowledge of smash simply from his skill. I feel as if he must have some knowledge of smash to play at the level he does. However, this quote is amazingly stupid. First off, what is a tier list? A hierarchy of characters based on their LIKELIHOOD of success. Based on this information, nobody is saying Yoshi is the most likely to win tourneys, so he obviously isn't top tier. However, with enough play skill, this can be overcome. Ex: Peach isn't top tier, but Armada wins tourneys, so one must consider skill a factor, not just characters. The real question is, how much of a disadvantage does Yoshi provide? Claiming him as "not viable" is just ignorance, and I think Kage is making hyperbolic statements trying to prove his point.

Also, to say Yoshis cannot make bracket is also stupid, lets ask what bracket? Last year my dorm had a smash tourney, and I beat everyone without trying, technically making bracket. Which means I believe there are THOUSANDS of Yoshis(even if the players only troll with Yoshi/never played him before but are good) capable of making A bracket. If Kage is challenging Yoshis to let's say, make a state bracket. . . Then I would say I know Leffen Angel V3ctorman Mind Trick and myself. That is off the top of my head.

Kage, don't make such ridiculously incorrect posts.

 

[Divinokage]

Well usually I base it off tournaments where mostly everybody is at that particular tournament. If you really think you can make brackets at a tournament at this caliber, at this moment.. no way in hell. And the tier list should be based on those results.

 

[Ripple]

Making bracket at FC is now a must for me

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Also, to say Yoshis cannot make bracket is also stupid, lets ask what bracket? Last year my dorm had a smash tourney, and I beat everyone without trying, technically making bracket. Which means I believe there are THOUSANDS of Yoshis(even if the players only troll with Yoshi/never played him before but are good) capable of making A bracket. If Kage is challenging Yoshis to let's say, make a state bracket. . . Then I would say I know Leffen Angel V3ctorman Mind Trick and myself. That is off the top of my head.

When people say "make bracket" they mean at a(n inter)national. Like a Genesis, Pound, APEX, FC, etc. Many people use these parameters to judge player skill: a 1st round pools calibur player is low level, 2nd round is mid level, 3rd is high, and bracket is top. Obviously this differs depending on how competitive the tournament is, and what the cutoffs are at each level, but the hierarching is nevertheless made.

Another way to think of it is in percentiles. About half the room at nationals don't make it out of round 1 pools (in a typical 8-man, top 4 make-it-out format). So the 50th percentile is the cutoff for the "low-level" designation. 75th for mid-level, and 85-90 for high level (32/48 man bracket cutoff). Top 8 is the 98-99th percentile; the best of the best.

 

[Purpletuce]

Considering my current level in comparison toward state tournaments, I Personally probably wouldn't make bracket at a national, but depending on how stacked brackets were, I believe Leffen could and has with Yoshi, and others may be able to, although I don't know of any Yoshis making bracket at a national. That being said, I've never looked.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mario's fireballs have uses

sveet out