Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[leffen]

^and that is the reason why Yoshis rolls are the best >_> (I guess m2s could be better).

stupid ripple

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't really think that helps all that much. Samus is tiny when she rolls

 

[leffen]

It does help a lot, if you watch Vman vs Axe you can see how he just SPAMS rolls at times, almost never getting punished.

I'm also pretty sure that Yoshis invincibility is different, iirc he is first invincible for a while 5 frames, enough to evade any move, and then his invincibility is spread out, making punishing the end lag much much harder
If you watch Yoshi, he pops out of the egg a few times for a few frames each.

Not 100% sure on the above tho

also, samus' roll has the huge flaw of being really slow and having a big window of punishment, making it much easier to react to

 

[Bones0]

Anyone who thinks parrying is a gimmick obviously hasn't tried to actually use it. I messed around with Yoshi this morning and was able to parry stuff vs. CPUs just fine (try it vs. Falcon's raptor boost if you want to see for yourself). It's like an easier version of powershielding where you don't have to worry about shield stun or hitlag when you go for the punish afterwards. And I'm not even good with it (yet).


As far as rolls, no one answered me before. Can you parry out of rolls? I couldn't seem to do it myself, but I wasn't even sure what I was trying to do. lol

 

[leffen]

Exactly. The part with no hitlag is huge, it makes everything (even max spaced stuff) punishable for free(powershielding normally still makes you go through hitlag+shieldstun)AND it "option selects". If they don't attack you, you will go on as if they did (this makes emptys almost worthless)


also, its a 6 frame window. If you can hit with a shine, which is one frame, you should be able to hit a 6 frame lol.

edit: Yes, you can parry out of rolls. This was iirc Vmans main strategy against WeonX @pound5 (he posted about it, no vids). WeonX kept trying to punish his rolls, and Vman got a free parry to combo.

edit2: You have to press Shield again, you can't hold it

 

[Bones0]

Is it 6 frames of invincibility every time? I thought the invinc ended once you JCed meaning you would rarely get all 6 frames.

Damn, parrying after rolls sounds sick. Or you could even do tech option/wake-up option -> parry to beat any punish that is just a few frames late, EVEN GRABS.

Now I'm tempted to pick up Yoshi. WTF

 

[Kimimaru]

edit2: You have to press Shield again, you can't hold it

Interesting. Does this mean you can press the shield button mid-roll and end up parrying after the roll is done?

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone who thinks parrying is a gimmick obviously hasn't tried to actually use it.

obviously parrying is not a gimmick.

the problem is evaluating yoshi's entire shield game (parry, no shield stabs) against what you forego in terms of defense when you pick a different character (different weight, survival DI range, combo ability, a standard OOS game, etc) and this is before you consider recovery.

i don't think anyone in this thread is saying that parry is bad or gimmicky, and if they have then i missed it. it's more like you just have to question if it's as good as the alternative, and i don't think it is. comparing parry to say shine OOS or sheik's rolls to yoshi's shield game might not be a "fair" comparison, but those things are what we consider relatively good in this game.

you should test it out for a few days and post your findings. it would be nice to see an unbiased opinion with a straight comparison.

 

[leffen]

lol, anyone who thinks shine oos is better than parrying is ****ing ******** >_>, and sheiks rolls are worse than Yoshis.

I think the main problem for the theorycrafters (that have never played any good yoshi) is that you try to compare him to others characters, and because he isn't like others, you say that its bad. Because Yoshi's shield is so special that it changes EVERYTHING about how you play. That does not mean that it's worse.


@Bones0
its not 6 frames everytime, you have 2-6 frames, depending on your timing (this is one of the reasons why yoshis tech skill is so hard to master)
you should fiddle around some with yoshi.
also I wanna create a Yoshi back room lmao, I have so many tricks that I won't reveal to others (gonna use it in tournament obv)

read up some in the "vman is the best yoshi thread (lol)" from the start. There is plenty of good information there.

also watch some vids of me (anything from TiA, Tampora 3, Super Motaro and Terebi), Vman (random friendlies mostly, his tournament sets aren't too beautiful tbh) and Angel

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheiks rolls are worse than Yoshis

ummm no


Also, you can only get 5 frames on invincibility since you must jump on frame 6

 

[leffen]

I'd argue otherwise, but whatever

You get 6 frames when you shield grab something (like Fox/Falcos bair) tho ;o
The other wasn't unknowledge, I just wrote it out wrong tbh
What I was meaning to say was obv you can jump out at 2-6 frames (you can get 1 frame invincibility too...why didnt u comment on this lol) and then you get 1-6 frames of invincibility, with 5 being the max if you wanna JC


Could you check exactly when Yoshi is vulnerable during his roll? Just check it by rolling + timing a shine differently. Thanks.

 

[V3ctorMan]

^Pretty much everything that Leffen is saying, is very accurate, close to the best way I can possibly describe the "parrying" after rolls... I admit, I do overuse, Yoshi's roll, however this is because I "want" my opponent to try and punish my roll.. ^As Leffen, said above, this is a MAJOR factor that helped me in my sets vs Weon X, and Kels @ Pound V...If they attempt to attack, and my timing is correct, I have a parry, if they grab.. I ALSO have a parry... if they do nothing with it.. I simply just jump (and I can accept that, bcuz that just gives me a chance to reposition myself on stage.. is the way I see it I guess..

Glad Leffen read my post in the thread about my sets vs WeonX, Hax, Azen, etc... ^^

Yes indeed no videos... just R1 pools when I went Falco.. I went Yoshi for R2, R3.

Leffen pretty much has been very accurate with statements... I still want to post my thoughts on things, but I'll just need some free time to write up something...

@Leffen, you should make that back room, just invite me ^^

uhhh yeah i'll hopefully get to get more later... Working so much is rough...

 

[leffen]

I wasn't saying that you overused them (at least not at pound5) since they didn't know how amazing yoshis roll is, just saying you used them a lot

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Spoiler

Even if he is vulnerable on frames similar to other characters during a roll, this is a tiny hitbox to try hitting. It is that little discoloration in the center of his body.

 

[Bones0]

I thought you were trolling me with that pic for a second, then I saw it. lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

For vision impaired peeps

 

[leffen]

Yes, but WHEN is he vulnerable?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yes, but WHEN is he vulnerable?

You already have the information in the Yoshi Board under the stickied thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317467

Roll
invulnerable 4-19 out of 34 (forward)
Invulnerable 4-19 out of 37 (back)

NOTE: when Yoshi is vulnerable during
his roll, his get-hit-box is a tiny
circle in his center, a sphere just
smaller than his fist.

Its not incorrect at all.

 

[Bones0]

So... is Zelda viable yet?

 

[Ripple]

Spoiler

Even if he is vulnerable on frames similar to other characters during a roll, this is a tiny hitbox to try hitting. It is that little discoloration in the center of his body.

you think this was on purpose?

 

[Warhawk]

I did some research and on yoshi's roll: the hurtbox is a small circle "just smaller than his fist" according to the yoshi frame data thread (also, Xyzz said it first). Frame data in ripple's and others' posts are accurate.

Yah, I said it too but everyone just ignored us for some reason.

 

[Jockmaster]

So... is Zelda viable yet?

nope

10nopes

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So... is Zelda viable yet?

Was this the final set and split matches evenly? Zelda/Sheik may be a new thing to consider. Sheik pulls out a 3 stock lead, Zelda loses it and wins on the final stock.

you think this was on purpose?

I don't understand squat about why anything in this game works the way it does. Lets take out flaming canceling and mass distribute the melee disc with that change along with other removed tweaks which generally made the lower tier characters slightly buffed.

 

[john!]

flaming canceling

a.k.a. putting leffen on your ignore list

 

[Geenareeno]

Not sure if people have seen this but holy **** Link is good. Better keep him above YL eh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8egX5Rw9-IU

 

[Max?]

Link ****ing sucks

 

[twizzlerj]

Link ****ing sucks

the truth someone had to say it

 

[Purpletuce]

So, all things considered, I think Yoshi should move up on the tier list, anybody want to put a number on it? I definitely agree with the idea that Yoshi is good because he is different, and two other things that haven't been brought up (I may have missed them, I haven't read much on this thread) are his double jump cancel counter and his instant ledgehog. DJCC is often a good way to escape combos or save your life, and can quickly turn the tides in battle, and even just add frustration. Last Wednesday I was playing Zelgadis, and he would get so frustrated when I DJCC Nair him out of his Uthrow Uair. Also, I played with a YL once who couldn't figure out how to get around edgegaurds, so he kept going for sweetspots, and died from Yoshi's instant ledgehog. It forces opponents to be a little more cautious with their sweetspots, which seems useful.

Note: I've only played half a year, and I usually play state level players, Eggz and Zelgadis being the best I've played, so this may not be as useful at regional/national play. That being said, these aspects definitely have some use at higher levels of play, even top level players do stupid stuff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Was Zelgadis frustrated enough to steal $6000?

 

[Purpletuce]

I didn't mention that, seems like an awkward thing to do. . . just regular frustrated.

 

[weon - X]

omg **** yoshi man it was such a close match and i didnt even know what i was doing,
i lost to ****ing yeah! at pound 5. i was so bad back then.
i rematched him at apex 2012 and it was such a joke

you know how many people i ***** at apex 2012 with roy? his only good thing is his dashdance and noobs just dont know how to face it. even tho i beat all these people i dont see any potential. im not kidding myself.

 

[Divinokage]

So, all things considered, I think Yoshi should move up on the tier list, anybody want to put a number on it? I definitely agree with the idea that Yoshi is good because he is different, and two other things that haven't been brought up (I may have missed them, I haven't read much on this thread) are his double jump cancel counter and his instant ledgehog. DJCC is often a good way to escape combos or save your life, and can quickly turn the tides in battle, and even just add frustration. Last Wednesday I was playing Zelgadis, and he would get so frustrated when I DJCC Nair him out of his Uthrow Uair. Also, I played with a YL once who couldn't figure out how to get around edgegaurds, so he kept going for sweetspots, and died from Yoshi's instant ledgehog. It forces opponents to be a little more cautious with their sweetspots, which seems useful.

Note: I've only played half a year, and I usually play state level players, Eggz and Zelgadis being the best I've played, so this may not be as useful at regional/national play. That being said, these aspects definitely have some use at higher levels of play, even top level players do stupid stuff.

Like trying to uthrow uair a Yoshi.. man some people don't know matchups.. Just by understand the weight difference in every character should change the decisions you make to do combos. When you can do that, already the matchup becomes a bit easier.. You gotta adjust and not fall to stupid **** like that, seriously... Yoshi still sucks.

 

[Bones0]

Yo, Ganon does seem to pwn Yoshi in my head though. I will say that. Especially for edgeguarding he probably knocks him out of his DJ armor sooner than any other character. Idk how badly he gets his options parried though since they're often pretty telegraphed and slow. He also can't whittle Yoshi's shield down like other characters, or go for shield pokes.

 

[Divinokage]

Well shield stabbing is just something I use sometimes to surprise my opponents when they are feeling pressured.. so it's just a tool/gimmick and in no way relevant to any matchup. It CAN give me the edge at crucial times but it doesn't define anything related to what the characters do to each other. The way I do the match-up is generally mixing up my grounded moves with aerial moves and delay them to make Yoshi have a real hard time to figure out what I'm going to do next, so parrying isnt that obvious. And also grab Yoshi when he is rolling. Though the egg gets hit pretty hard with Ganon's attacks too so he will have to move around eventually, he can't roll forever. Being invincible for 1 second just means, it's actually easier to react when he's not invincible.

 

[JPOBS]

Especially for edgeguarding he probably knocks him out of his DJ armor sooner than any other character.

Falco's shine breaks yoshi's jump amour at 0.

 

[Bones0]

I was only talking about moves that weren't broken. Sorry if that was unclear.

 

[JPOBS]

Word, my mistake.

 

[Xyzz]

falcons knee is pretty fun, too.
looks hella weird when knee doesn't cause the opponent to fly across the screen, but just stops him.
And in case yoshi comes from below strong meteors are great as well (yoshi can't meteor cancel anyways :D)

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, the Falco matchup sucks, his SHL is really gay, too. (Against pretty much everyone) Again, for emphasis, I am wondering if you all can put a number on Yoshi, I'm not claiming he is S tier, because it simply isn't true. I do, however, believe he is more viable than many people think, especially considering his amount of bizzare options.

P.S. Yoshi can kill Falco at 0 with dtilt. It isn't as easy to pull as shining a jumping Yoshi, though. I personally think he is mid-tier, possibly 16.

 

[Geenareeno]

He's probably like right belows mario/luigi and right above dk/link.