Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Max?]

Luigi's Fair/Dair and Nair all beat Yoshi's DJ

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yoshis djc is fairly risky too. A trade can be stock ending without a double jump

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, good Yoshi players often need to decide whether trading hits using the DJ is worth it. Most of the time the DJ is actually used for recovery or DJC aerials. The superarmor actually gives Yoshi an advantage over other characters in aerial-heavy combat, like when fighting Jigglypuff. In this matchup, Yoshi can actually afford to trade compared to other matchups because Jigglypuff is much lighter than him and will die at a lower percent (in general, excluding rest). Overall though, breaking a good Yoshi's DJ isn't as easy as it sounds, and if you do, chances are he'll be at kill percent anyway.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...The reason Yoshi can trade with Puff is because her aerials don't interrupt the DJ armour...

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, I thought that was implied from this sentence.

The superarmor actually gives Yoshi an advantage over other characters in aerial-heavy combat, like when fighting Jigglypuff.

I think you might have slightly misinterpreted the sentence after, where I stated that it's in Yoshi's favor to be trading a lot with Jigglypuff as opposed to some other matchups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yoshi can actually afford to trade compared to other matchups because Jigglypuff is much lighter than him and will die at a lower percent

The reason Yoshi can afford to trade with Puff and not other characters is because other characters hit him out of his DJ.

That's what I was referring to.

 

[Purpletuce]

Puff can hit him out of DJ, any character can, the DJ super armor works like a crouch cancel +/- a few %. At 0%, nearly nothing breaks DJ, but at 200%, nearly everything can. Considering Yoshi's priority and Puff's priority, Yoshi has to be careful, for sure. Also, you have to beward cancelling your DJ for an attack being hit before it starts, or losing from range/priority during. Also, when I saw DJCC when it is presented, I mean to say that if you can hit them after your double jump, I never attempt to trade with DJCC, and if I take advantage of the armor, it is almost always when my opponent is using an attack I know won't break my armor, or if they barely break my armor and I happen to be in a position to exploit it.

 

[Warhawk]

Luigi's Fair/Dair and Nair all beat Yoshi's DJ

At any percent?

 

[Geenareeno]

Judging by the post above yours, no.

 

[Purpletuce]

Luigi's arials do not beat Yoshi's DJ at any percent. . . very few moves do, and except for Falco's shine, I assume that if I am in low %, nobody will ever break my jump, it simply doesn't happen. Unless you jump into a warlock punch or something silly like that.


[COLLAPSE="DJC information"]"Here are some statistics of scream percentages for Falco’s forward smash on Yoshi. Me and Quetzalcoatl both came up with this list for an accurate measure of the difference crouch cancelling and double jump cancelling has to the distance that your character is hit by an attack. For those who don’t know, scream percentages is the most accurate way to measure attack power, because kill percentages can be very inconsistent based on position in the level, and DI.

Standing -
Scream 1 44% - 61%
Scream 2 132% - 149%

CC –
Break 40% - 57%
Scream 1 99% - 116%
Scream 2 231% - 248%

DJC -
Break 40% - 57%
Scream 1 150% - 167%
Scream 2 238% - 255%

These statistics show pre-hit and post-hit percentages, as well as the point at which Yoshi’s CC and DJC break. From this data, you can see that Yoshi’s double jump has the same breaking point that crouch cancelling has. In other words, if you ever crouch cancel a hit without Yoshi falling over, you can then say that you could have double jumped through that same attack. Also, you can see that DJC is considerably similar to CC in terms of reduction in power of your opponent’s move, with the big difference being the DI direction. At lower percentages, DJC seems to be a greater reduction, but it seems to even out at higher percentages. Not that it really matters at 235% against Falco’s forward smash anyway."[/COLLAPSE]
-rmusgrave's Yoshi tutorial, found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=53132

 

[Strong Badam]

still don't believe that mario's better than DK, let alone yoshi

 

[Geenareeno]

The last good DK we saw was in the MLG era. The only vids I've seen of you are against m2k, so that's not really an accurate assessment of how good dk is (since he's way better than you). On the other hand, Mango is (or was) doing work with Mario. Everyone (other than the people who play as him or against him frequently) who is putting Yoshi in mid tier is just theory crafting, which is fine.

 

[Purpletuce]

I disagree with "just theory crafting", there are a large amount of Yoshi players, and several are capable of tourney play. The only problem with Yoshi in the tier list right now is that there isn't anyone to be his noteable example, for pika there is Axe, for Mewtwo there is Taj, etc. However, the best Yoshi IMO is Leffen, who mains Fox. However, there are many Yoshis out there, who knows, one of them may end up amazingly good and show everyone what Yoshi is capable of. However, Yoshi is definitely viable outside of theory crafting, that has been proven, the question is how viable?

 

[Max?]

Please name all of the large amount of Yoshi players who are capable of tourney play please

 

[RFrizzle]

Strong Bad's legit, those videos vs. m2k really shouldn't be taken to heart about his playing.

 

[Kimimaru]

Yeah, I think saying that there are several Yoshi players that are capable of tourney play is pushing it. There's V3ctorman, Leffen, and Angel, and that's about it. I was theorycrafting extensively earlier because I wanted to get it out of the way. I know there aren't too many results right now, but I hope to see more in the near future (Chances are I'm going to Rule 6). If Leffen really does pick up Yoshi again we'll be able to see how much further he can push the character.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yoshi players I know are good:Leffen, Angel, V3ctorman, Mind Trick, Yoshido
Yoshi players I've heard of/barely seen/don't know if they still play: Hai I'm Fearless, Blistering Speed, Kimimaru, Chival Ruse, Twitch
Old: Fumi, BringerOfDeath, rmusgrave

There are 13. I exluded myself.

 

[Strong Badam]

The last good DK we saw was in the MLG era. The only vids I've seen of you are against m2k, so that's not really an accurate assessment of how good dk is (since he's way better than you). On the other hand, Mango is (or was) doing work with Mario. Everyone (other than the people who play as him or against him frequently) who is putting Yoshi in mid tier is just theory crafting, which is fine.

that's exactly the point, you dudes can't tell the difference between player skill and character ability. mango did work, not mario. mario's terrible. melee has not, and never will have the sample size necessary to take a look at tournament results alone to determine character ability. you have to actually THINK, sorry.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yoshi players I know are good:Leffen, Angel, V3ctorman, Mind Trick, Yoshido
Yoshi players I've heard of/barely seen/don't know if they still play: Hai I'm Fearless, Blistering Speed, Kimimaru, Chival Ruse, Twitch
Old: Fumi, BringerOfDeath, rmusgrave

There are 13. I exluded myself.

Are those people in the 2nd group just people that post in the yoshi forums? If so I demand my name be added for accuracy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah I've posted there as well. Please add me.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that's exactly the point, you dudes can't tell the difference between player skill and character ability. mango did work, not mario. mario's terrible. melee has not, and never will have the sample size necessary to take a look at tournament results alone to determine character ability. you have to actually THINK, sorry.

I disagree completely. You can't do better than the limitations of the character. A player doing well at a national with a character either means he had a [edit: really!!!] lucky series of pools/brackets or his character is at least "semi viable".

Tom R just got 2nd using only mario and falcon. He beat the good doc's sheik using mario in a bo5 I believe. From my experience playing vs his mario and watching his matches, I don't consider mario much worse than doc at all.

 

[Purpletuce]

The second list is mainly people that post to the Yoshi forums that I remember talking about playing as Yoshi, or people I saw on YouTube playing Yoshi.

 

[Deleted member]

...mario is a good bit worse than doc. doc has a potential throw > kill combo, and aerial kill move, an edge guard that hits below the edge, a noticeably better projectile.

that said, i think both are better than DK. DK is just depressing.

not as depressing as yoshi though.

/pissed off at least 20 people with this post.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm not pissed off, although it is upsetting to hear that so many people still think Yoshi is hopeless. However, if the general consensus remains that Yoshi is "depressing", I can work with that. Many times people thought it was silly, I was bad, trolling etc. when I pick Yoshi, and a few people at a time, I am teaching people he is viable. Nothing is more satisfying than beating somebody after they say your character is bad. Although, maybe I just want a cause to fight for, and don't have the tech skill to play Fox, who knows.

 

[Divinokage]

Yes it's fun and all but until anyone has proven it themselves, the words are meaningless. Also playing only one character especially a crappy one will very likely make you skill capped as well as you will not be able to see certain things as to why things work the way they work. You'll be so conditioned to play a certain way that when you start playing a top tier alt even, you'll be stuck in the same mindset as if you were playing a crappy character. It would take more years to train yourself otherwise.

 

[Zoler]

...mario is a good bit worse than doc. doc has a potential throw > kill combo, and aerial kill move, an edge guard that hits below the edge, a noticeably better projectile.

that said, i think both are better than DK. DK is just depressing.

not as depressing as yoshi though.

/pissed off at least 20 people with this post.

DK is really depressing indeed, Yoshi however isn't as much depressing.

 

[Divinokage]

Play NTSC Yoshi. GG.. he is!

 

[Deleted member]

DK is really depressing indeed, Yoshi however isn't as much depressing.

yeah you're probably right. you have to go pretty deep down the rabbit hole to be happy to play DK.

 

[onionchowder]

Play NTSC Yoshi. GG.. he is!

is PAL Yoshi better? I don't know **** about PAL or Yoshi.

 

[Zoler]

I mean DK is large, has a horrible shield that you can just spam stuff against or grab, gets comboed really really easily, and his recovery sucks balls. He has some nifty combos but so does yoshi.

Yoshi do get comboed but not as bad, and cannot be uthrow uaired. He can be edgeguarded but not even close to DK. His shield is pretty good.

Yoshi also has more mobility if you're on point with the wavelands and stuff.

This comes from a fox mains point of view btw.

is PAL Yoshi better? I don't know **** about PAL or Yoshi.

All his smashes are a lot stronger in PAL, and his dair is weaker but that's apparently better because you can gimp easier with it (leffens words not mine).

Not sure if there's anymore, but the stronger smashes really makes a huge difference indeed. I think he's still better than DK even in NTSC though.

 

[Geenareeno]

Isn't his d-tilt like **** in NTSC as well?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

...mario is a good bit worse than doc. doc has a potential throw > kill combo, and aerial kill move, an edge guard that hits below the edge, a noticeably better projectile.

that said, i think both are better than DK. DK is just depressing.

not as depressing as yoshi though.

/pissed off at least 20 people with this post.

I agree. If mario had doc's dthrow->fair he would be much better. As is, though, he does have dthrow->nair which can setup an edgeguard, not to mention better combos at the comboing percents. Also, the additional range mario has on doc seems small at first, but i think it makes a big deal if its abused as Tom does. Heres his set with darkrain from a few months ago for reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=069_L0TKfqs

 

[Kimimaru]

Although, maybe I just want a cause to fight for, and don't have the tech skill to play Fox, who knows.

Yoshi in my opinion needs as much consistency as Fox to do well. You have to be on point for everything, and one mistake can get you punished really hard. It's a matter of getting used to the character you want to play and practicing tech skill. If you want to switch mains, regardless of character, it'll take a while before you can adjust to that character's playstyle. Personally I play Yoshi because he feels natural to me. It's hard to explain, but I'm sure most players know what I mean.

Also playing only one character especially a crappy one will very likely make you skill capped as well as you will not be able to see certain things as to why things work the way they work.

While Yoshi is considered a terrible character, that doesn't mean he's not technical. He's probably one of the most technical characters in the game. Either way, you're right about a player being skill capped when he/she plays only one character.

Isn't his d-tilt like **** in NTSC as well?

As far as I know, his D-tilt has never been changed. I play against a Marth main who absolutely despises that attack, lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Mario is trash (if he could kill people, that alone would make him a good deal better, but he can't).

DK is...surprisingly not awful against Peach or Puff, from my estimation. And guaranteed pain on spacies (even aside from FD) counts for something, right? I think that says something? I don't think he's a terrible, terrible character, to be honest. He just has little/no potential, or room to grow.

I wish we wouldn't dismiss all of this Yoshi information as "theory crafting." I don't see that much theory. I see more FACTS about his tools (unless his ability to parry is just a theory? I don't get it). All the same, no one will be convinced until we have video evidence. So whatever.

==

Can someone explain to me what it is that Falcon lacks in this metagame? I know that he gets comboed/edgeguarded fairly well (as do spacies (sometimes), Sheik, and Marth), but I don't hear anyone talk about his weakness in-depth. Not that I think he has space to move up, or down. I'm really just curious, because I don't know that much about him (just that he's not as good as everyone above him, or as bad as those below).

==

Also, I'm not convinced that Sheik loses to Puff. Someone convince me.

 

[Divinokage]

Well theory without the skill to back it up is just like trying to build a flying machine when you don't know how to make it fly in the first place.

 

[unknown522]

I mean DK is large, has a horrible shield that you can just spam stuff against or grab, gets comboed really really easily, and his recovery sucks balls. He has some nifty combos but so does yoshi.

Yoshi do get comboed but not as bad, and cannot be uthrow uaired. He can be edgeguarded but not even close to DK. His shield is pretty good.

Yoshi also has more mobility if you're on point with the wavelands and stuff.

This comes from a fox mains point of view btw.




All his smashes are a lot stronger in PAL, and his dair is weaker but that's apparently better because you can gimp easier with it (leffens words not mine).

Not sure if there's anymore, but the stronger smashes really makes a huge difference indeed. I think he's still better than DK even in NTSC though.

he's heavier in PAL too. Also u-throw -> u-air combos in NTSC. I'm gonna assume it doesn't in PAL.

Edit: also for some reason mango says that Mario is better than doc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mario has lots of ways to kill people. Thats like saying samus can't kill people because she can't dthrow->fsmash to kill.

Of the midtiers, Luigi and Mario have the most potential for improvement, i think both of them have "potentials" around doc's level but aren't as explored/exploited.

And don't take yoshi facts to say more than they are. The theory crafting comes in when you go beyond looking at the facts and begin speculating how well they would work in a match. Personally, I have 0 match-up experience against yoshi so I try to be as factual as I can be while I evaluate him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I just don't see it. If we're comparing Doc to Mario, at least, Doc has reliable kill setups that Mario doesn't seem to have (at the very least, he doesn't have the killing power).

 

[Bones0]

Mario has lots of ways to kill people. Thats like saying samus can't kill people because she can't dthrow->fsmash to kill.

Of the midtiers, Luigi and Mario have the most potential for improvement, i think both of them have "potentials" around doc's level but aren't as explored/exploited.

And don't take yoshi facts to say more than they are. The theory crafting comes in when you go beyond looking at the facts and begin speculating how well they would work in a match. Personally, I have 0 match-up experience against yoshi so I try to be as factual as I can be while I evaluate him.

I thought Samus could dthrow fsmash spacies. lol I agree with you though. People act like Mario is incapable of ending stocks and never talk about the rest of his game.

I just don't see it. If we're comparing Doc to Mario, at least, Doc has reliable kill setups that Mario doesn't seem to have (at the very least, he doesn't have the killing power).

Mario has fsmash kills that Doc could never get. When Mango played Shroomed recently in Mario dittos, apparently (I think Lovage or one of the other commentators mentioned this) Shroomed went Mario instead of Doc because in that matchup he gets outranged pretty hard by Mario's fsmash. I also think there are times when Mario's nair is good for knocking people off stage or killing where Doc would have to go for a fair or something else because the beginning of his nair is weak. Mario also has a good dsmash just like Doc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

2 frame jab and a real good CC game doesn't hurt either