Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Warhawk]

Still not as useful as Doc's pills as well as most other projectiles.

 

[Bones0]

I like fireballs way more than pills for edgeguarding.

 

[Max?]

Mario ****ing blows. In fact, almost every character in the game blows outside of the Top Tier.

Doc BARELY escapes the "****ing blows" tier because he has some interesting properties and tools to gimp/KO people effectively. I think he is in the same tier as Falcon and Icies, tho he is probably the worst of the 3 (tho theory fighter could argue him being better then either one/both of them). Everyone below him is pretty ****ing terrible (Pikachu, Samus, Ganon included).

Luigi is jank tho

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fireballs arent pills


otg u need to get off doc's ****

doc isn't nearly as good as ics much less falcon

i'll post some pics later showing the size differences between doc and mario

 

[Max?]

Did I not say that Doc was the worst of the 3? A number of people recently have been posting they feel Doc could be better than Icies and Falcon, and based on certain perspectives of the metagame/personal opinion, it could be true. Realistically, I don't buy it, I was just putting it out there.

I'm tempted to pull up old facebook conversations between Hax and myself where he argues Doc is better than Falcon and I just laugh at him for johning

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't see a tier separation between the marios, much less 2 tiers

 

[Max?]

Well based on your thought process from the way you post, you seem to be under the impression that Doc is below Ganon/Samus/Pikachu. So yes, it's not hard to believe that he is close to Mario in the tier list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have never said anything like that...

 

[Max?]

I could go searching if I wanted to, and for all I know your opinion has changed in recent history, but I recall a number of tier lists you've posted showing Doc below at least Samus/Ganon. Moot point tho,

Mario ****ing sucks

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is the tier list I submitted to the preliminary vote

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Puff
Marth
Peach
Falcon
ICs
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Mario
Pikachu
Luigi
DK

and so on..

 

[Geenareeno]

Why do people think Samus is better than Ganon? Also I think mid tier (mid tier being Ganon Samus Pikachu Mario Lugi) is hard to define because Ganon, Samus, and Luigi are all awful if you learn how to play against them really well but most people don't. What I'm saying is those three matchups have intricacies that make them much easier after learning them very well. This also means the characters get worse.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Considering my current level in comparison toward state tournaments, I Personally probably wouldn't make bracket at a national, but depending on how stacked brackets were, I believe Leffen could and has with Yoshi, and others may be able to, although I don't know of any Yoshis making bracket at a national. That being said, I've never looked.

^*giggles* also

*sad face*

it's ok tho

;_;

 

[The Good Doctor]

Why do people think Samus is better than Ganon? Also I think mid tier (mid tier being Ganon Samus Pikachu Mario Lugi) is hard to define because Ganon, Samus, and Luigi are all awful if you learn how to play against them really well but most people don't. What I'm saying is those three matchups have intricacies that make them much easier after learning them very well. This also means the characters get worse.

Samus is a pretty amazing character to watch, look up some videos. Also, V3ctorman is the best Yoshi on the planet.

 

[Deleted member]

doc isn't nearly as good as ics much less falcon

doc is nearly as good as falcon. i think ICs are better than both though.

having kill power and stage control are pretty good in this game. doc has both, mario has neither.

i'd be ok putting doc in a B tier and mario in a C tier. but doc is irrefutably, noticeably better than mario. he's almost strictly better.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone think Mario is better than Doc at any particular matchup (I don't have anything in mind, just curious)?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

doc is nearly as good as falcon. i think ICs are better than both though.

having kill power and stage control are pretty good in this game. doc has both, mario has neither.

i'd be ok putting doc in a B tier and mario in a C tier. but doc is irrefutably, noticeably better than mario. he's almost strictly better.

I disagree on all counts. Falcon's nair alone is better than ICs

mario does have kill power and stage control. if you don't think so, you are ignorant.

Doc's only tactical advantages over mario are pills and dthrow/uthrow -> fair. His fair is slightly larger than mario's, his uair is the same size. His dair has a slightly smaller hitbox, his dsmash has less range, his jab has much more lag. Doc's ftilt is marginally better, and his dtilt has better trajectory/knockback.

Mario has a better nair for ending combos. A better fsmash, more range on the dsmash, better knockback on utilt and uair, a better jab, more horizontal range on his cape (while he has a harder time on the sweetspots, he can cover other options doc can't such as diagonal down firefox sweetspots or simply bait/punish with cape from a distance doc wouldn't be threatening cape from).

And for the record, marth doesn't have a dthrow->KO move and he does just fine. Mario is similar to marth in that way. They both have easy moves to initiate an edgeguard and tools to finish that. Mario also has pretty useful smashes (all of them KO) that he can fish for. Mario's usmash kills bowser on FD ~150% while doc's doesn't kill til ~190% (percents are after the hit)

 

[Strong Badam]

don't use grounded percents on doc usmash, it has a ground-only hitbox that sends downward causing floorbounce, leading to a 0.80 multiplier on KB. it's like comparing fox's usmash to falcon's dair in KO ability, when falcon dair/doc grounded usmash are designed for comboing not KOing.
calculated KO percent for doc usmash on bowser that's 1 pixel off the ground assuming 150% is accurate for mario usmash is at 143% after hit, so you're just kinda wrong there.

and just lol at "falcon's nair alone is better than ICs"

 

[john!]

the funny thing is that falcon's other 4 aerials **** IC's even harder

 

[Geenareeno]

Pretty good post Sveet. I don't think people realize how close together everyone from Doc - DK are, as far as viability.

 

[Kyu Puff]

the funny thing is that falcon's other 4 aerials **** IC's even harder

the funny thing is that none of falcon's aerials **** ICs at all

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree on all counts. Falcon's nair alone is better than ICs

mario does have kill power and stage control. if you don't think so, you are ignorant.

Doc's only tactical advantages over mario are pills and dthrow/uthrow -> fair. His fair is slightly larger than mario's, his uair is the same size. His dair has a slightly smaller hitbox, his dsmash has less range, his jab has much more lag. Doc's ftilt is marginally better, and his dtilt has better trajectory/knockback.

Mario has a better nair for ending combos. A better fsmash, more range on the dsmash, better knockback on utilt and uair, a better jab, more horizontal range on his cape (while he has a harder time on the sweetspots, he can cover other options doc can't such as diagonal down firefox sweetspots or simply bait/punish with cape from a distance doc wouldn't be threatening cape from).

And for the record, marth doesn't have a dthrow->KO move and he does just fine. Mario is similar to marth in that way. They both have easy moves to initiate an edgeguard and tools to finish that. Mario also has pretty useful smashes (all of them KO) that he can fish for. Mario's usmash kills bowser on FD ~150% while doc's doesn't kill til ~190% (percents are after the hit)

you're just wrong on a lot of things.

mario doesn't have a dtilt.

 

[Max?]

you're just wrong on a lot of things.

Yeah agreed, no point in arguing with him.

 

[Warhawk]

Doc's only tactical advantages over mario are pills and dthrow/uthrow -> fair.

Even if this was all of it they make a significant difference.

 

[Little England]

Yeah agreed, no point in arguing with him.

And this is the problem I have with sveet.

 

[Max?]

And this is the problem I have with sveet.

Makes sense that he is one of the leaders of the MBR then

 

[Deleted member]

Makes sense that he is one of the leaders of the MBR then

not a leader, the leaders atm are cactuar and hyuga.

a lot of people have problems with me and i was a leader at one point, so idk.

 

[Mahone]

Does anyone think Mario is better than Doc at any particular matchup (I don't have anything in mind, just curious)?

I think he's better vs falcon. My reasoning is that falcon is so easy to gimp that it doesn't really matter that he has a worse cape since most edgeguards are going to be a string of bairs or an offstage cape. Also falcon is heavy as **** and never dies off the top so i actually prefer mario's fair because it lets you start combos. I think mario being faster and his fsmash having more range is pretty useful in this matchup. I'm not really sure how doc uses pills in this mu, but i don't really mind not having them... maybe they help your high recoveries but overall i think mario does better.

 

[tarheeljks]

are there any doc/mario players who agree w/this line of thought that mario is basically as good. otg clearly does not. shroomed basically laughed when i asked him what he thought about it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you're just wrong on a lot of things.

mario doesn't have a dtilt.

This made me laugh

The other posts made me laugh too, but for a different reason

 

[john!]

what the hell guys

if someone clearly articulates their opinion and doesn't constantly repeat themselves, then there's no reason not to have a discussion with them unless you're just tired and willing to concede.

 

[Little England]

mario does have kill power and stage control. if you don't think so, you are ignorant.

This doesn't really sound like someone who wants to have a discussion John.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if that was the only content in my post, i'd agree.

why you so mad jason?

 

[Mahone]

I disagree on all counts. Falcon's nair alone is better than ICs

mario does have kill power and stage control. if you don't think so, you are ignorant.

Doc's only tactical advantages over mario are pills and dthrow/uthrow -> fair. His fair is slightly larger than mario's, his uair is the same size. His dair has a slightly smaller hitbox, his dsmash has less range, his jab has much more lag. Doc's ftilt is marginally better, and his dtilt has better trajectory/knockback.

Mario has a better nair for ending combos. A better fsmash, more range on the dsmash, better knockback on utilt and uair, a better jab, more horizontal range on his cape (while he has a harder time on the sweetspots, he can cover other options doc can't such as diagonal down firefox sweetspots or simply bait/punish with cape from a distance doc wouldn't be threatening cape from).

And for the record, marth doesn't have a dthrow->KO move and he does just fine. Mario is similar to marth in that way. They both have easy moves to initiate an edgeguard and tools to finish that. Mario also has pretty useful smashes (all of them KO) that he can fish for. Mario's usmash kills bowser on FD ~150% while doc's doesn't kill til ~190% (percents are after the hit)

Falcon's nair thing was hopefully a joke. Even if it wasn't that was an "umbreon" sentence, aka, a sentence that just makes you sound like an elitist ******* who thinks he sounds smart when really you are just adding empty words to this site and making it harder to find real information.

he DOESN'T have killing power and you keep acting like ending combos with nair is a GOOD thing...

I already explained that the trajectory of his "kill" moves make them more susceptible to good di (and it isn't hard to sdi and di nair perfectly since you see it coming) into recovering high into living all the ****ing time....

He really doesn't have stage control, but he's kinda like ganon where he sucks at approaching but then just uses tricky waveland bs to approach and catch opponents offguard and therefore with bad di to get some combos... he's definitely a bait and punish character most of the time

pill's control space, fireballs don't because of the trajectory difference and properties (don't know what word to use, but the fact that fireballs are like "weak"... hopefully you know what i mean)

"Mario has a better nair for ending combos." - I already explained that this shouldn't matter cuz ending combos in nair sucks so i don't know why you would even mention it. I think having a reverse strength nair is much better usually anyway, but you never mention situations where that's better.

"(while he has a harder time on the sweetspots, he can cover other options doc can't such as diagonal down firefox sweetspots or simply bait/punish with cape from a distance doc wouldn't be threatening cape from)" - What if they just always go up to the top platform instead of the ledge cuz mario sucks at handling that? You can't seriously be saying his cape is just different for edgeguarding and not just strictly worse

"And for the record, marth doesn't have a dthrow->KO move and he does just fine." - Basically all of marth's bad matchups are due to the fact that he doesn't have killing power... if he had dthrow->KO move he would go from losing matchups to ******... for example, i agree with the current idea that marth loses to jiggs but if he can consistenly pivot tipper he wins the matchup... thats how badly it would swing matchups...

The only reason he does fine is because he compensates for this HUGE flaw with all his other stuff... i don't wanna explain everything marth has that mario doesn't because i would have to write like 10 pages, so i'll let someone else do that, but since you mained marth at some point i would hope you would realize what all of those things are.

"They both have easy moves to initiate an edgeguard and tools to finish that." - I was about to explain how ridiculously wrong this is but then i realized the burden should be on you... can you explain what both they're tools are and how they are comparable?

Ya, marios smashes are good... the difference in smashes isn't why doc is better than mario

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ending a combo off stage is a good thing. Its not dthrow->knee good, but its not bad. Hell, thats all puff has if you don't count uthrow->rest. Plus he can dthrow -> fsmash, which doc can't except on no DI at medium percents.

 

[Mahone]

"I already explained that the trajectory of his "kill" moves make them more susceptible to good di (and it isn't hard to sdi and di nair perfectly since you see it coming) into recovering high into living all the ****ing time...."

This is the third time i have said this... what do you not understand?

I don't know what you are trying to say about puff... none of her combo enders have anything resembling marios nair... the reason shes good and mario isn't is because if they survival di her moves they continue to get comboed forever because she has 6 jumps and if they combo di she is one of the best edgeguarders in the game and usually has at least a 33% chance of killing them

 

[Little England]

if that was the only content in my post, i'd agree.

why you so mad jason?

Mad? lol.

Anyways, my issue with you is no more personal than some of your posts. Really, almost everything you said in your Mario/Doc comparison is false. And then you top it off by saying if anyone disagrees they're "ignorant". It's no wonder OTG said there was no point in arguing with you. haha

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't call everyone ignorant that disagrees with me. Are you arguing that "having kill power and stage control are pretty good in this game. doc has both, mario has neither" as Umbreon posted? I don't think he was arguing it, and he took it in good flavor judging by his response.

Also, I'm fairly sure that in any debate, when saying that the facts presented are false, its customary you provide the correct facts. Not doing so tends to lead to many "No you" situations. For the record, that post that Mow and you replied to was written while I was in AR looking at hitboxes and frame data.

 

[Max?]

Alright fine

mario does have kill power and stage control. if you don't think so, you are ignorant.

Good start to a conversation

Doc's only tactical advantages over mario are pills and dthrow/uthrow -> fair. His fair is slightly larger than mario's, his uair is the same size. His dair has a slightly smaller hitbox, his dsmash has less range, his jab has much more lag. Doc's ftilt is marginally better, and his dtilt has better trajectory/knockback.

Saying that these are the only tactical advantages is incorrect, but we'll get there. I will acknowledge that I do not know a ton about hitbox sizes, but the difference in size is probably moot. Doc's Dair is disjointed well below him, and to my knowledge the only thing it lacks that Mario has the 'splash' hit when he touches the ground with it. Mario's 3rd hit in the jab combo is also slightly faster.

Also, Doc's dsmash knockback is way stronger than Mario's. I will take a stronger CC move that is EASY to combo into over a situational Fsmash that needs to be spaced perfectly, is hard to combo most of the cast into, and sucks terribly if mis-spaced at all.

Doc ftilt > Mario ftilt. Mario's downward angle has 0 knockback. They will literally not travel anywhere. So yeah, no catching people out of their upB's, or spacies who try to sweetspot the edge with their side b's SLIGHTLY below the lip of the stage. Seeing as how his cape is way harder to gimp people with as well, Mario's edgeguarding falls way below Docs.

Mario has a better nair for ending combos. A better fsmash, more range on the dsmash, better knockback on utilt and uair, a better jab, more horizontal range on his cape (while he has a harder time on the sweetspots, he can cover other options doc can't such as diagonal down firefox sweetspots or simply bait/punish with cape from a distance doc wouldn't be threatening cape from).

The Fat Nair (as in the Doc's Nair at its strongest) is way more powerful than Mario's initial Nair. Learning how to land and combo into the Fat nair is something good Doc's know how to do, and it's a powerful tool to have at your disposal. On the topic of Fsmash, I love Doc's Fsmash and land it all the time out of tech chases or mindgames or w'e you want to call them, but since that can be implied towards any move in the game, let's just ignore that point. But once again, I'd rather have Doc's dsmash over Mario Fsmash/Dsmash any day of the week.

Doc's utilt is similar to Marth utilt, in that you can space it so that it launches someone up, or so that it sends someone out. You make it sound like Mario's utilt actually benefits him, but he has no good aerial finisher move, and his combo game out of uair juggles will typically end in a nair anyway, which is at best, mediocre. You are REALLY over stretching how good Mario nair as a finishing move is, and saying "oh but it leads to positional advantage/edgeguards"... um well so do a ton of other moves in the game, including Doc Nair, but Mario STILL doesn't have good KO tools, while Doc does.

Also, Doc cape can ABSOLUTELY catch spacies who try to UpB diagonally down towards the ledge. I don't know what makes you think otherwise.

And for the record, marth doesn't have a dthrow->KO move and he does just fine. Mario is similar to marth in that way. They both have easy moves to initiate an edgeguard and tools to finish that. Mario also has pretty useful smashes (all of them KO) that he can fish for. Mario's usmash kills bowser on FD ~150% while doc's doesn't kill til ~190% (percents are after the hit)

Marth does have throw -> KO move on certain characters at certain %'s, which is more than Mario can say. Oh, and he has a HUGE SWORD, is faster, has way more range on all of his moves, a way better grab. This is not a good comparison at all.

Also, Doc's usmash is just as strong as Mario's, as long as his opponent is already in the air. If they are on the ground, then he gets the grounded hitbox, and from that a KO or a combo setup.


TL;DR version:

At the end of the day, Doc does everything Mario does but better/more efficiently.


Sorry for any spelling errors, I typed this up quickly and I'm in a rush so I didn't get to edit it.

 

[Bones0]

Who needs LA ftilt to edgeguard when you can LA fsmash?

But seriously, that ****'s pretty good.

 

[Deleted member]

Even if it wasn't that was an "umbreon" sentence, aka, a sentence that just makes you sound like an elitist ******* who thinks he sounds smart when really you are just adding empty words to this site and making it harder to find real information.

ok i'll elaborate, here's some academic examples of stage control.

this is what i affectionately refer to as "the box", also applicable to fountain of dreams and battlefield. ganondorf and peach are extremely effective at controlling the boxed in area because it have strong aerials that can extend to the rest of the stage, or outside of the box, namely fair, bair, and upair from both characters. more importantly, it allows them to use the small stage to make up for relatively slow movement speed. the small proximity of the box and the rest of the stage makes projectile camping a poor choice and platform camping a risky endeavor. strong positional advantage is established.

this is a generic representation of dashdance camping. dash dancing is a form of stage control more specific to horizontal motion. this is most effective on stages with a large floor and/or with less ability to use platforms to bypass the technique, such as final destination or dreamland 64. because the engagement with the opponent is more prone to crouch cancelling, a successful instance of camping should lead to a move that circumvents the crouch, the most effective of which is a grab. fast dashers with excellent grabs tend to be the best dash dancers, such as fox, marth, and captain falcon. unlike box camping, the dash dancer can move his range of stage control if the opponent forfeits some amount of the stage. because of this ability to adapt, there are no known ways to beat dash dancing as a technique. traditionally, the opposing player should chase the dash dancer when he does the dash away from the opponent to restrict the amount of stage left, and thus area he is able to control, but this is always outplaying the player more than defeating the tactic itself and is still risky in nature. strong positional advantage is established and is reflexive to your opponents actions.

this is a generic representation of platform camping. platform camping is in many ways the opposite of box camping, where you want to bait the opponent into attacking you on the platform, and then punishing it with a fast fall speed. this is the least understood of the 3 types in my post, and may or may not have a solution based on the character. for example, there are no solutions to fox platform camping properly, but captain falcon can platform camp effectively enough to use it, but can it can also be played around. stage position is establish when the opponent is unable to profitably attack the character on the platform. because of the relatively limited area that the camping can use, it is still possible to force the character into a bad position with creative use of aerial positioning. with fox specifically, there is no known solution to proper platform camping, and the opposing player must once again outplay the fox to resume the interaction.

in all 3 examples, it is important to understand that the point of establishing stage advantage is to make the opponent unable to engage you in an ideal way. if you are able to interact with what your opponent does, you have the option to overcome his/her strategy, and if you are unable to interact with your opponent because you are at a disadvantageous position, you do not have the option to interact with your opponent and are subject to any number of punishments.

------------------

mario can not box camp because he does not have the proper aerials, and he cannot dashdance/platform camp because he is too slow. doc's pills allow some measure of stage control because they can direct the opponent to not be at some specific location, which can increase your interaction or lower your opponent's interaction. doc and mario can both mimic ground control with the slightly less effective strategy of wavedashing in and out of shield. however, doc is still better at this strategy because upon punishment, doc's throw > fair kill is much more reliable than anything mario can do. thus, mario has no effective stage control.

doc's cape is still better for edge guarding falcon. when falcon comes up normally, he will always go over the edge to grab it and thus both mario and doc can cape him. when falcon comes up backwards, he does not go over the edge, so mario cannot cape him while doc can. it really is just strictly better.