Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fortress | Sveet]

Saying that these are the only tactical advantages is incorrect, but we'll get there. I will acknowledge that I do not know a ton about hitbox sizes, but the difference in size is probably moot. Doc's Dair is disjointed well below him, and to my knowledge the only thing it lacks that Mario has the 'splash' hit when he touches the ground with it. Mario's 3rd hit in the jab combo is also slightly faster.

Well, I think being more disjointed and reaching farther down means its safer and more effective, but yes I suppose, considering doc's size does that well already, it is a moot point.

Not only is mario's 3rd jab faster, his transition from jab 1 to 2 is faster. Mario can start his 2nd jab on frame 6 of the first jab while Doc must wait til frame 14... huge difference. Also, his transition from 2 to 3 is much slower -- mario can start frame 6 while doc's is frame 16. Mario can start his 3rd jab before doc can even start his 2nd. Using this, mario is much less susceptible to CCs and shield grabs than doc.

Also, Doc's dsmash knockback is way stronger than Mario's. I will take a stronger CC move that is EASY to combo into over a situational Fsmash that needs to be spaced perfectly, is hard to combo most of the cast into, and sucks terribly if mis-spaced at all.

Well, they both break CC, so doc's being stronger is moot in this case. I want to show you the difference in dsmash disjointedness though.

Also, you seem to have many misconceptions about mario's fsmash. For one, it is not too difficult or risky to space. It is one of the most disjointed moves in the game, having the sweetspot hitbox completely removed from his body.

Fsmash is 41 frames long, the same length as fox's usmash. On shield, it is nearly unpunishable due to range and push back. -18 on block, the only threats are frame perfect WD OoS -> a 3-5 frame attack (jab, some ftilts).

Doc ftilt > Mario ftilt. Mario's downward angle has 0 knockback. They will literally not travel anywhere. So yeah, no catching people out of their upB's, or spacies who try to sweetspot the edge with their side b's SLIGHTLY below the lip of the stage. Seeing as how his cape is way harder to gimp people with as well, Mario's edgeguarding falls way below Docs.

That wasn't really my reasoning behind doc's ftilt being better than mario's. Doc's hits 1 frame earlier, stays out a frame later, and ends 3 frames earlier.

As for edgeguarding, i'm not really sure why cape is such a big deal. Plenty of characters edgeguard without cape. I don't understand the logic of "mario's cape doesn't hit sweetspot QED mario can't edgeguard". As Bones0 mentioned, there is the down angled fsmash. As i've been over before, fsmash is disjointed which makes it fairly safe. Admittedly, it doesn't hit too far south of the stage, but I don't think thats a big deal. The counter to sweetspots is to edgehog, not attack from the stage. Mario's cape also does go below the stage, just for the record.

The Fat Nair (as in the Doc's Nair at its strongest) is way more powerful than Mario's initial Nair. Learning how to land and combo into the Fat nair is something good Doc's know how to do, and it's a powerful tool to have at your disposal. On the topic of Fsmash, I love Doc's Fsmash and land it all the time out of tech chases or mindgames or w'e you want to call them, but since that can be implied towards any move in the game, let's just ignore that point. But once again, I'd rather have Doc's dsmash over Mario Fsmash/Dsmash any day of the week.

Please show me a fat nair combo. I have never seen one and cannot imagine what setup doc has that allows him to float in the air for 20-30 frames before hitting with a low priority nair finisher (doc's fat nair has less priority than weak nair, btw).

Doc's utilt is similar to Marth utilt, in that you can space it so that it launches someone up, or so that it sends someone out. You make it sound like Mario's utilt actually benefits him, but he has no good aerial finisher move, and his combo game out of uair juggles will typically end in a nair anyway, which is at best, mediocre. You are REALLY over stretching how good Mario nair as a finishing move is, and saying "oh but it leads to positional advantage/edgeguards"... um well so do a ton of other moves in the game, including Doc Nair, but Mario STILL doesn't have good KO tools, while Doc does.

Agree to disagree? I don't think mario's nair is a good finisher, but it isn't awful. It hits them off the stage. Doc's nair doesn't really do this, at least not as well as mario's.

Also, Doc cape can ABSOLUTELY catch spacies who try to UpB diagonally down towards the ledge. I don't know what makes you think otherwise.

It was more about spacing/mindgames than straight hitboxes. The fact that you can threaten the down angle from a farther angle allows for more room to feint.

Marth does have throw -> KO move on certain characters at certain %'s, which is more than Mario can say. Oh, and he has a HUGE SWORD, is faster, has way more range on all of his moves, a way better grab. This is not a good comparison at all.

I didn't say anything about the range or w/e, but yeah, marth is better than mario. I don't remember saying they are the same character, i was simply pointing out similarities in gameplay.

Mario also has throw->ko move, but on more characters and less specific percents (aka not spacies on FD at 50%)

Also, Doc's usmash is just as strong as Mario's, as long as his opponent is already in the air. If they are on the ground, then he gets the grounded hitbox, and from that a KO or a combo setup.

I would call this apples and oranges. How often does the usmash overhead get used on an airborne opponent who is in kill percent? Rarely, I would guess. In mario's case he has the earlier kill %, while doc has more combo percents.



edit- good post umbreon. I look forward to reading through it and commenting later. I have to run, though.

 

[knightpraetor]

interesting posts...i can't really weigh in much since I don't know enough about doc and mario, but those were good reads....i still think pills in itself make doc far stronger than mario against chars who aren't top 5...and without pills fighting marth is infinitely harder. pills force marth to be more cautious about approaching and take steps to deal with the pills...

on a side note i don't see how disjointedness of mario's dsmash has any relevance. ground moves clank, so the only place where it would matter is if the opponent is doing an aerial move..if they are doing an aerial move they aren't going to be hit by a dsmash on the ground..so having a better CC option is infinitely better than the extra disjointedness.

also, nair sucks at finishing opponents and most of the top characters in this game have enough recovery mixups that being able to fair the opponent and kill them instead of try to edgeguard probably improves your kill ratio by at least 25%. I could see it be even more depending on the opponent...with mario against marth I would say you would probably need to get an edgeguard opportunity twice to secure a kill at mid percents..while a fair from doc would send you far enough offstage/kill you

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Umbreon: What is a dash-dancer's counter to the opponent walking towards them?

 

[knightpraetor]

the counter is to either throw out a move to wall the movement or to attack normally reacting to your movement towards them...or reach a spacing where you can attack before the opponent can properly react to your attack (my favorite)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Never mind. Won't mean much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Umbreon, I really liked your post and how you explained how you view those 3 types of camping/stage control. My problem comes in at this point:

"doc and mario can both mimic ground control with the slightly less effective strategy of wavedashing in and out of shield. however, doc is still better at this strategy because upon punishment, doc's throw > fair kill is much more reliable than anything mario can do. thus, mario has no effective stage control."

First off, this is a non-sequitur. The conclusion is exaggerated and inaccurate. The premises do not support this conclusion. I think I know what you mean, though.

Second, you fail to acknowledge Mario's superior anti-CC and shield game. Because of the properties of his jab as opposed to doc's (see my last wall of text), Mario can be more aggressive from the air and use a combination of his fair and jab to defend against CCs and shields. On the other hand, doc must be much more careful since his jab has no real shield mixups and it can be beaten by CCs.


"doc's cape is still better for edge guarding falcon. when falcon comes up normally, he will always go over the edge to grab it and thus both mario and doc can cape him. when falcon comes up backwards, he does not go over the edge, so mario cannot cape him while doc can. it really is just strictly better."

When falcon comes up backwards, he still goes to the same total height. What makes that recovery harder to edgeguard is the distance away from the edge (which can force mistakes or outrange some attack spacings). If anything, Mario should have the easier time caping falcon than doc. Also, in case you didn't read the entirety of my last post, mario's cape does hit slightly below the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

the counter is to either throw out a move to wall the movement

Commitment - more likely to end up in the walker's favour

or to attack normally reacting to your movement towards them

Requires prediction.

...or reach a spacing where you can attack before the opponent can properly react to your attack (my favorite)

Such a spacing does not exist - whether you can react to something or not is based on timing and how good you are.

Walking seriously is amazing lol

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon: What is a dash-dancer's counter to the opponent walking towards them?

to answer you directly, you wait until they do something and then you grab it, but this is a little simple. walking toward an opponent isn't really a good solution because the best way to fight dashdancing is to limit the amount of stage they have to use the tactic and walking is too slow. this is where the idea of "run extra far at them" comes from, as it lets you take stage back. unfortunately, this always has answers too.

in my experience, it's almost always a pivot grab or to dashdance better. the idea of a dashdance is to use mobility to always be able to have a strategic advantage when the opponent attempts to engage you. for example, watch this kill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ9c-2lAld4&t=7m

and here's the pivot grab:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkwQRhJVHIk&t=54m55s

there's 2 particularly good grabs on leffen's last stock.

i'll come back to this thread later, i have to go for now.

 

[Lovage]

Umbreon: What is a dash-dancer's counter to the opponent walking towards them?

this kid doesn't know **** about ****

classic mental melee pro

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hi Lovage!

 

[Lovage]

sup dog

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not much. I'm really hungry though.

 

[Divinokage]

Hungry for what?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Something deep fried and smothered in cheese and gravy

 

[Deleted member]

Something deep fried and smothered in cheese and gravy

chili dogs are good. go get chili dogs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There's actually a really good burger place near my house that sells those. I sometimes get the hotdog with bacon & cheese and it's really good. But I might try their chili dog under that advisement.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Kage's tendency to put a winky face in all his posts is starting to creep me out

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ahh this page has so much purple and just the right amount of green :D

 

[Bones0]

Commitment - more likely to end up in the walker's favour



Requires prediction.



Such a spacing does not exist - whether you can react to something or not is based on timing and how good you are.

Walking seriously is amazing lol

I'll save this post in case anyone ever asks me for an example of "Theory Bros."

 

[Divinokage]

Kage's tendency to put a winky face in all his posts is starting to creep me out

Or maybe it's your mind going crazy.

 

[john!]

we should have theory bros. tournaments

"i shffl nair towards you"
"i wavedash back to avoid the nair"
"i overshoot the nair so it hits you after your wavedash"
"i powershield the nair and grab you"
"but my shine comes out 8 frames after hitting the ground"
"my grab takes 7 frames"
"but your powershield activates on the second frame"
"yeah but i spaced my powershield so your shine wouldn't hit"
"i predict this and doubleshine your extended arm before the grab hitbox comes out"
"but my arm doesn't extend past my body's hitbox"
"but the shine hitbox is circular so it hits the middle of your arm anyway"
"can we get magus over here to judge?"

 

[Bones0]

^ lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

grab would win

 

[standardtoaster]

That's amazing, John.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think I played that with someone once but they didn't understand what I was saying.

In hindsight, my coworker was probably a bad choice for an opponent...

 

[Varist]

we should have theory bros. tournaments

"i shffl nair towards you"
"i wavedash back to avoid the nair"
"i overshoot the nair so it hits you after your wavedash"
"i powershield the nair and grab you"
"but my shine comes out 8 frames after hitting the ground"
"my grab takes 7 frames"
"but your powershield activates on the second frame"
"yeah but i spaced my powershield so your shine wouldn't hit"
"i predict this and doubleshine your extended arm before the grab hitbox comes out"
"but my arm doesn't extend past my body's hitbox"
"but the shine hitbox is circular so it hits the middle of your arm anyway"
"can we get magus over here to judge?"

do more

someone should make a theory bros thread

where all we do is post such hilarious recounts

i can't do it because krynxe would lock

 

[RedGamer]

is there a 2012 tier list?

 

[Bones0]

No .

 

[Cactuar]

do more

someone should make a theory bros thread

where all we do is post such hilarious recounts

i can't do it because krynxe would lock

John's example is not how theorycrafting scenarios works. He is retroactively applying actions. In proper playouts, you work in measures dependent on action speed of the characters, and you either perform actions at the same time or in response to the opponent's actions.

 

[Varist]

too many words cactuar i just want to laugh

 

[Cactuar]

Just saying.

 

[Battlecow]

3 cactuars.

 

[Varist]

cactuar can you explain what happened to my pokeball postbit it's gone can't get it back used to be on I changed no settings makin me a sad boy

 

[Beat!]

is there a 2012 tier list?

The MBR is working on one. Sveet was gathering votes a while ago.

 

[Varist]

how come sveet never asked me for any votes, i could give some good votes

 

[Beat!]

He only asked like 12 people or something, and they were all MBR members + Armada.

I'm sure he'd greatly appreciate your input. Shoot him a PM or ten.

 

[Cactuar]

I don't know anything about your pokeball, homey.

 

[Varist]

**** this boards

 

[choknater]

yeah we got lightning speed option selects

 

[john!]

John's example is not how theorycrafting scenarios works. He is retroactively applying actions. In proper playouts, you work in measures dependent on action speed of the characters, and you either perform actions at the same time or in response to the opponent's actions.

i'm glad you see how ridiculous my example was