Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Warhawk]

At best I can see it being Peach = Marth

 

[Tero.]

nah its cool, but theres been a tier list project in the works for a while now. Next week was supposed to be the "final voting" time. Thats all i meant by you being out of the loop.

this is looking great so far!
i feel like sheik should be grouped in S tier. actually she's between S and A (about 1.3 apart from Falco and Marth) but I'd say she fits better in S.

 

[Deleted member]

this is looking great so far!
i feel like sheik should be grouped in S tier. actually she's between S and A (about 1.3 apart from Falco and Marth) but I'd say she fits better in S.

actually, i think she should be the top of A tier.

tero you mah nigro

 

[ShroudedOne]

At best I can see it being Peach = Marth

This is essentially where I stand.

As long as we can all agree that Puff is trash and shouldn't be third, I'm fine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Puff is broken.

 

[Kimimaru]

I don't think that Jigglypuff is trash, but I don't believe that he/she is as good as most people think he/she is. Jigglypuff generally has good matchups, but he/she dies pretty easily and some low-mid tiers and can go toe-to-toe with him/her with very few problems. Also, a missed Rest almost always means a lost stock. I think Jigglypuff should be around Captain Falcon, Peach, Marth, etc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Puff is probably the most death resilient character in the game: she can't really be edge guarded and few characters have guaranteed kill combos on her.

What mid tiers go toe-to-toe with puff? Unless by "some" you mean only young link and toe-to-toe you mean only armada can win that match-up.

Missed rests are not "almost always" a lost stock. Ganondorf is the only character that has the ability to kill puff under 25%, other than another puff on YS. Also, quite a few characters don't have a kill move until at least 70% (sheik, marth, peach, falco).

 

[Divinokage]

Mid tier? Probably only Ganon ya. Though Doc doesn't seem like he would do horrible vs Jiggs either. I also wonder how Jiggs vs Samus work?

ICs also have arguable good match-up vs Jiggs from what I've seen, they have good tools to keep Jiggs away from approaching and can rack up damage pretty damn quick and also has reliable kill setups.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hopefully Ice Climbers don't get to be forever alone together in their own tier again.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Everyone forgets the g&w jiggs counter

 

[RedGamer]

what about Captain Falcon against a missed rest?

also would it be possible to do a teams tier list? (a simple yes/no/maybe so)

 

[Bones0]

There was a thread with a good amount of tier list discussion. You could search for it. Not much came of it because there are so many team combinations and teams is extremely susceptible to theory bros (even moreso than 1v1).

 

[RedGamer]

what's it called? so I can search.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Puff only has 1 match-up thats worse than "even", fox. All those others are arguably even (I think puff wins most of them slightly, but who am i to say). Sounds pretty top tier to me

 

[Bones0]

Idk. Try the obvious stuff.

Puff only has 1 match-up thats worse than "even", fox. All those others are arguably even (I think puff wins most of them slightly, but who am i to say). Sounds pretty top tier to me

A lot of people seem to think Marth beats Puff. Even M2K (which is saying something lol).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When did m2k say that? Last I heard from him marth loses to every character above doc.... But seriously, I have heard the opposite but I may be behind the times.

Thats one of those "even" match-ups in my opinion. I like playing the match-up from marth's end, but its still much harder than playing fox. Marth has difficulty killing people if he can't combo into the fsmash/dair/upb/whatever, and thats puff at all percents. Not saying its impossible, but puff has some really solid punishes against marth if he wiffs

 

[RedGamer]

puff is SO unfair (no pun intended).
I know that against marth, puff is going to try to keep you out until you make a mistake and then punish (basically).
but what are puffs basic goals against captain falcon, sheik, fox, falco?

 

[Bones0]

Go to the Puff boards.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think puff's goal in every match is to either take 4 stocks before losing 4 or have the lead at the end of 8 minutes

 

[Kimimaru]

If you're trying to kill Jigglypuff from the side or on Dreamland, yes, it'll be really tough because Jigglypuff has arguably the best recovery in the game. However, characters that have good killing power from the top on Puff (Fox, Young Link, Pikachu, etc.) or outrange her (G&W, Marth) do pretty well. Basically, if you can avoid B-air you can do well against Puff, and her Grab -> Rest combo works only at low percents and only on fast fallers. Yoshi is even one of the few characters that can fight her in the air and his U-smash outprioritizes all of Puff's aerials and has pretty good killing power. I'm not saying Jigglypuff is bad; I just feel his/her approach is too predictable overall and doesn't have enough mixups to throw the opponent off. I feel Puff is just too one-dimensional to be considered top 4 material.

 

[Twinkles]

I dunno, I think her aerial mobility gives her plenty of options even though her standard move pool isn't as diverse

 

[Dr Peepee]

Puff is probably the most death resilient character in the game: she can't really be edge guarded and few characters have guaranteed kill combos on her.

I disagree.

At least about the edgeguarding part for now lol. People just either attack too early and get hit or they wait too long and Puff gets the edge for free. You just have to read Puff's jumps and what she's doing with them and then it's just like edgeguarding anyone else.

If Puff wants to jump at you with an aerial first and then jump again to grab the edge, then don't run away and stay away. You shield/dodge the first attack and then grab the edge/hit Puff trying to grab it.

Puff can't really sweetspot and her last 2 jumps are pretty garbage so she's more limited when recovering than you think.

She also can't really go over someone without burning at least 2 jumps so if you catch that(pretty easy since most characters rise faster than she goes horizontally) then she's in a really tight spot while recovering.

She has to go really low or into you then. Most characters can shield or dodge and punish any attack into them(especially Pound) and if Puff goes low then it should be a free hit. People just need to pay attention to weaving patterns and jumping patterns more.


Puff might have a better recovery than most characters, but that does not mean she is nearly impossible to edgeguard or anything of the sort. She simply takes a different mindset to handle than what most people are accustomed to.



Also, someone mentioned the Marth vs Puff matchup. For what it's worth, I think Marth wins that matchup. I don't think it's a counter matchup(65-35 to me is counter) or anything, but I firmly believe he wins. Range+disjoint advantage on a character that also can only zone is incredibly powerful. Marth having way more ground mobility than Puff helps(+ great DD also hurts her) and Marth's solid aerial mobility also allows him to guess less when using his aerials vs Puff's faster ones. They both juggle each other okay but Marth juggles Puff better imo since his ground mobility is better and his hitboxes are bigger. You just have to be patient and learn jumping/weaving patterns. Marth combos Puff better at low percent especially off of a grab, but Puff can get those clutch rests to help even up damage output. Marth gets free rest punishes since he should never be surprised by one though(uptilt to rest and whiffing shield grab to rest should be really easy to DI).

There's more but that's some reasoning for why I think what I do.

 

[RedGamer]

this is the kind of suff you should put on the puff boards. "watch out for this weakness" type thing. certainly more helpful than anything else on the puff boards.

 

[Beat!]

M2K thinks Marth vs Puff is an even matchup if you "play gay", iirc.

In addition to what PP said, there's also fthrow pivot (tipper) fsmash. Extremely good vs Puff.

I also think Marth beats Puff. Not completely sure by how much, though. I want/need to play vs good Puffs a little more first and try some stuff out before I can decide on that.


And Marth is better than Peach wtf

 

[twizzlerj]

At one point i thought puff won the match up against marth but its pretty even.

And Marth is better than Peach wtf

False.

 

[Beat!]

N o.

 

[Deleted member]

As long as we can all agree that Puff is trash and shouldn't be third, I'm fine.

I think puff is 3rd, possibly 2nd if you put her over fox.

i also think that peach is slightly better than marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I disagree.

At least about the edgeguarding part for now lol. People just either attack too early and get hit or they wait too long and Puff gets the edge for free. You just have to read Puff's jumps and what she's doing with them and then it's just like edgeguarding anyone else.

If Puff wants to jump at you with an aerial first and then jump again to grab the edge, then don't run away and stay away. You shield/dodge the first attack and then grab the edge/hit Puff trying to grab it.

Puff can't really sweetspot and her last 2 jumps are pretty garbage so she's more limited when recovering than you think.

She also can't really go over someone without burning at least 2 jumps so if you catch that(pretty easy since most characters rise faster than she goes horizontally) then she's in a really tight spot while recovering.

She has to go really low or into you then. Most characters can shield or dodge and punish any attack into them(especially Pound) and if Puff goes low then it should be a free hit. People just need to pay attention to weaving patterns and jumping patterns more.


Puff might have a better recovery than most characters, but that does not mean she is nearly impossible to edgeguard or anything of the sort. She simply takes a different mindset to handle than what most people are accustomed to.



Also, someone mentioned the Marth vs Puff matchup. For what it's worth, I think Marth wins that matchup. I don't think it's a counter matchup(65-35 to me is counter) or anything, but I firmly believe he wins. Range+disjoint advantage on a character that also can only zone is incredibly powerful. Marth having way more ground mobility than Puff helps(+ great DD also hurts her) and Marth's solid aerial mobility also allows him to guess less when using his aerials vs Puff's faster ones. They both juggle each other okay but Marth juggles Puff better imo since his ground mobility is better and his hitboxes are bigger. You just have to be patient and learn jumping/weaving patterns. Marth combos Puff better at low percent especially off of a grab, but Puff can get those clutch rests to help even up damage output. Marth gets free rest punishes since he should never be surprised by one though(uptilt to rest and whiffing shield grab to rest should be really easy to DI).

There's more but that's some reasoning for why I think what I do.

I'm glad you made this post :D i'm stealing so many ideas

 

[twizzlerj]

peach is slightly better than marth.

True.

As for the puff thing 3 is a good spot

 

[knightpraetor]

as pp said, puff is not impossible to edgeguard..people just suck. you just need to burn all of jiggs jumps..going across takes 2-3...and the last couple jumps are garbage so they can't cross over that easily unless they DIed a strong attack up (in which case peach would also get on even more free).

basically edgeguarding twice on a cross over will burn all their jumps so they have almost no options....if they just repeatedly try for the ledge they may get 3-4 tries..but they also very easiliy eat dtilts and you get a lot of free damage.

anyway, it's embarrassing watching marths play puff and never get a kill by burning all of jiggs jumps..just watch pp play the matchup sometime. he's pretty solid on the edgeguarding...i was pretty solid too but PP is better at using platforms to supplement his edgeguarding so they can't cross over high..i'm dumb so i take too long to notice they are going high and get on the platform too late.

also peach is at least as good as marth..in my opinion. if i'm wrong, which I could be, then it would have to be because dashdancing is much stronger than float....if you just look at hitboxes and aerial speed peach wins out in the walling department....however, while i think dashdancing is strong, the small stages really limit it, while float does not get limited similarly.. I would rather have an excellent float that i can use on every stage and even retreat off stage with with little risk rather than a dashdance that is godly on big stages but becomes unusable as you run out of space.

 

[Tero.]

Mid tier? Probably only Ganon ya. Though Doc doesn't seem like he would do horrible vs Jiggs either. I also wonder how Jiggs vs Samus work?

ICs also have arguable good match-up vs Jiggs from what I've seen, they have good tools to keep Jiggs away from approaching and can rack up damage pretty damn quick and also has reliable kill setups.

Doc can do really good vs puff. He can punish rest better than almost everybody else and his fair can be pain.
Problem is as always his range. He needs to get through those bairs.
Tho Doc is really good at controlling Space vs puff using pills since she is slower than most char thus having a harder time jumping over them or running under them.
Edit: normaly Jigglypuff usually waves in and out with Jumps/Bair at about perfect Doc fair hight so she really needs to be careful with throwing out random bad spaced aerials because hitting with docs fair is way easier against slow floaty (especially slow falling) characters being at full jump hight all the time (opposed to fast (falling) characters who dont do anything else than SHFFL or grab)

Samus gets ***** by puff. She can't hit Puffs shield with anything without getting rested. Also Puff can crouch under missiles and can edeguard with just jumping into bombs.
Samus also can't really do much vs spaced Bair since CC wont work and she'd probably get rested after trying to CC Puffs Bair and DSmash.
Edit: All of her good stuff (CC, missiles, edgeguarding) doesn't work quite well and Puff can win with only crouching, shield camping and sh bair + rest (oos) then jumping into bombs while Samus is recovering.

What you said vs ICs is true, but on the other hand Puff shouldn't be grabbed ever.
That makes the best tool ICs have pretty much useless

Edit: also they lose their safe kill setup from grab so they have to hope for wd DSmash or catching Puff offguard with usmash/fsmash
In theory i think Puff should be fine against ICs, tho i havent really seen this

 

[-ACE-]

Marth over Peach all day

(NTSC)

 

[knightpraetor]

"What you said vs ICs is true, but on the other hand Puff shouldn't be grabbed ever.
That makes the best tool ICs have pretty much useless"

if you can't manage to make puff shield as ICs, you either freaking suck..or wobbling is legal

actually scratch all that..even without shield..how can you fail to get any grabs...are you just letting her float off the ground the whole time without using your own bairs or smashes?

puff has to land sometime...ICs aren't exactly slow on following up on the ground either..what are they doing platform camping the whole match...seriously.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

can't puff just land unexpectedly? I mean, she does have 5 air jumps and good autocancel moves, not to mention platforms to land on.

 

[knightpraetor]

if she's platform cancelling it's obviously a different matter...5 jumps doesn't mean anything..it just means you shouldn't hard predict landings if the hard prediction will result in you getting ***** if you're wrong...it's easy enough to just keep spacing around her many jumps with faster characters...characters with long wavedashes have it even easier because they don't have to accurately space around puff, they just have to stay out of range and come in when they anticipate a landing....

the thing is you can kind of react..if the jiggs doesn't actually start to land during your wd you just short hop bair or smash instead. Yeah you aren't going to always hit her, but you only need to hit 1 for 2 to stay even.

anyway you don't really need the grab unless they are actually utilizing their shield, but i could still easily think of ways to get it if wobbling was not banned making it worthwhile to go for even when they aren't shielding much.

When did jiggs magically become immune to grabs...the only way to do that is to platform camp or constantly camp backwards..but if you do that you run out of space..then you have to land or go offstage

Anyway, i'm no master of IC vs jiggs yet..only played it a few hours tops. but jiggs isn't some magical character that can't be grabbed.

on another note characters with long wavedashes have much better options out of shield against jiggs...the fact that she can't just throw out moves on your shield and then away safely has a huge impact on matchups. the effective range of ICs out of shield wd smash is as fast and strong as marth wavedash chasing fair. This forces them to either play higher in the air or to stay close both of which let you tag them more easily from shield. close puts them at risk for the bair (you are hopefullly facing backwards like you want..) and high...high is just bad

anyway, i've only gotten to play mahone but he definitely shields occasionally. eating double smash at high percent kind of sucks for jiggs

as for platform camping i haven't played against it enough to know where I think the matchup stands if the jiggs does that so I'll stay out of that argument, except to say that I don't think it will work if there is a lot of time on the clock.

also to clarify what i meant about peach having good walling..I meant against everyone except marth..obviously marth can wall peach with that extra range and disjointed hitboxes.

but peach is pretty good at pressure. I honestly don't see what peaches are complaining about with that fair and nair. i would willing trade one of my two aerials for one of peaches and it wouldn't have much effect on my walling. Those aerials are damn good.

marth's speed is nice too..but when you have so much better ground moves than marth (super fast dash attack and dsmash and low float)..you can afford to be a little slower. Peach is not bad at all

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs beat Puff - I'm certain of it.

 

[john!]

samus is the most "death-resilient" character

at least puff dies early due to her weight

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think ICs can beat Puff if Puff plays to avoid being grabbed just because f-smash, uair, up-smash, and bair do assloads of damage to her.

 

[Bones0]

I am pretty sure if Jiggs takes a stock on BF or DL she could fairly easily stall the rest of the match. /theorybros

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm convinced Young Link is the best character in the game. Look at how many nationals Armada won

Get at that Bones Logic.