Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KrIsP!]

I'm convinved pikachu is soon going to be top tier. Look at how many spaces he's moved up the past years? When was the last time fox moved up on the tier list hmmm? '04?

 

[Bones0]

I'm convinced Young Link is the best character in the game. Look at how many nationals Armada won

Get at that Bones Logic.

How is that my logic?

 

[Xyzz]

also to clarify what i meant about peach having good walling..I meant against everyone except marth..obviously marth can wall peach with that extra range and disjointed hitboxes.

but peach is pretty good at pressure. I honestly don't see what peaches are complaining about with that fair and nair. i would willing trade one of my two aerials for one of peaches and it wouldn't have much effect on my walling. Those aerials are damn good.

marth's speed is nice too..but when you have so much better ground moves than marth (super fast dash attack and dsmash and low float)..you can afford to be a little slower. Peach is not bad at all

Slow is really annoying. Imho being fast almost increases the range of your moves by a fair amount, just because you can move a bit faster. Fox is pretty much all about abusing that speed in order to compensate for the actually not that impressive range on his moves.
The only character where being slow isn't too bad is Falco, because well, he has a infinite amount of pretty fast friends in that blaster magazine of his

I think Peach might be better than Marth in PAL, though I doubt it.
They both do pretty fine against Falco (even), but Marth is having the better Matchup against Fox. People actually say that Marth - Jiggs is even, while Peach is definitely at a disadvantage here (and this is one of the most annoying matchups in the game. Will write some more on why I think so later....)
Peach is doing fine (even to slight advantage for her) in the Sheik matchup in PAL (loses in NTSC, dthrow -> fair is a big deal), while Marth loses both, so she has somewhat of an advantage here.
The direct matchup feels pretty even to me (and I've only seen people claim that Marth wins, never that he loses).
So we are trading better Jiggs / Fox matchups for a better sheik matchup? For me that is just not worth it.

Regarding the Peach - Jiggs matchup:
It's not volatile like fox vs cf where a few hits can turn everything around, so the variance is not big enough to at least get some lucky wins here from time to time. And if it's only about a couple of hits, every single time you win a mindgame just counts for sooo much, which is really rewarding for the better player.
Plus (even more important) I feel that in this Matchup jiggs does better at every single thing, which is soooo annoying to play around. If the other character is having some part where he is worse, one can always try to force the game in a direction that plays to that flaw... but nah, nothing here. Jiggs has better combos, better zoning, better edge guards. Yay.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I am pretty sure if Jiggs takes a stock on BF or DL she could fairly easily stall the rest of the match. /theorybros

Uair says no.

The only stage Puff can stall ICs out on is KJ.

 

[Bones0]

OMG uair. I totally forgot about that move!

Spoiler

Not...

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, don't know if upair can poke dreamland top platform adequately..but on battlefield and the other stages you can pressure rather easily with upair/bair..it's really time consuming though..if you have a large enough lead and little time on the clock you can probably just trade minor upair hits for a while...but jiggs vs IC seems to be pretty fast-paced so i really question whether you can time the ICs out. Dreamland....dreamland is just gay. armada already proved that..everyone else just hasn't felt like adapting his strategies yet

also, i'll believe marth is as good as peach vs falco when a marth demonstrates consistent powershielding in 3 separate sets vs falco that are spread out over a tourney. Right now we have people lauding people like Ice probably from playing him in friendlies after he gets warmed up and powershielding everything. but when I actually see marths in tourney I just see them getting pinned by lasers and getting pressured into oblivion or like m2k just trying to jump over them and getting bounced around like a pincushion.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

OMG uair. I totally forgot about that move!

Spoiler

Not...

Sure. Seeing as there is no case of ICs being timed out by Puff on Dreamland, I think the neutral position should be that it isn't viable, right?

So - What makes you think it would be?

 

[Bones0]

hmm, don't know if upair can poke dreamland top platform adequately..but on battlefield and the other stages you can pressure rather easily with upair/bair..it's really time consuming though..if you have a large enough lead and little time on the clock you can probably just trade minor upair hits for a while...but jiggs vs IC seems to be pretty fast-paced so i really question whether you can time the ICs out. Dreamland....dreamland is just gay. armada already proved that..everyone else just hasn't felt like adapting his strategies yet

BF's top plat is higher than DL's, yo. LOL

Sure. Seeing as there is no case of ICs being timed out by Puff on Dreamland, I think the neutral position should be that it isn't viable, right?

So - What makes you think it would be?

High level Puff stalling on DL... could've sworn I remember seeing that somewhere...

Now obviously Armada wasn't going full out to try and hit him. He was pretty content just throwing bombs and boomerangs, but he wasn't really threatening him reliably. And that's with Young Link's amazing jumping and projectiles. I don't see how IC's uair would be able to threaten even close to the same amount of space.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When I watch that set, I see Young Link timing out Jigglypuff - Not the other way around.

 

[knightpraetor]

also, i realize taj is kind of the main reason why people think falco loses to marth right now..taj with all that full hop / sh aerial from shield that *****..

but i wish we could have seen taj's marth more on FD to see how he deals with lasers.

i haven't seen much in terms of dealing with lasers since cactuar honestly.. these days you just pray the falco approaches a lot and that you hit him out of shield

edit:

also, i don't play dreamland since I ban it every set...but even so, just looking at the video you posted, it doesn't look like you could reliably platform camp the top platform.

IC full hops under top platform spaced under you...your response? if you jump he will just fall slowly and then DJ if you come down or wait for you to come down if you keep going higher...sure you can weave and do distractions,

(wow i'm out of it...what the heck are distractions...i don't even know what i intended here, just ignore it..but my question still stands..what are you planning to do?)


but i can't see you avoiding getting hit for 1min or something. and there's no way IC will get hit while doing this...pressuring cross overs to the top platform from the side platforms with bair has some risk since you go horizontal to jiggs..but upairs are safe...also..bair kills jiggs rather fast if you manage to double bair while they are going for combo DI which they will be since they are trying to flee. Not really relevant on dreamland, but I was getting early kills a lot when mahone tried it on FoD

anyway mahone and i played around with platform camping a bit with IC vs jiggs but he said it didn't seem to be in his favor. honestly i think platform camping works better when you play between side and top platforms on small stages so that jiggs can gimp ICs if they mess up or misspace..

ok, so after watching the bit when hbox camped armada's y. link, i can acknowledge jiggs can dodge decently, but i personally think that that only demonstrates jiggs can burn time that way, not that she can avoid getting hit altogether. the amount of time jiggs managed to avoid engagement was rather small.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

You're tripping ballz if u think Taj is the definitive reason why Marth beats falco.

 

[Strong Badam]

i agree, cuz you can't justify something that isn't factual

 

[past_b]

Btw taj has had years and years and years of practice against fowards falco...just saying. It's safe to assume be is more than competent against falco...

 

[-ACE-]

BF's top plat is higher than DL's, yo. LOL

Aren't they the same height? It takes 1 max height fullhop + max height dj to land/waveland on either one with Ganon. They have to be close lol

 

[Mahone]

im pretty sure all characters could time out popo if they had the lead if they really wanted to

 

[Beat!]

Aren't they the same height? It takes 1 max height fullhop + max height dj to land/waveland on either one with Ganon. They have to be close lol

BF's plat is a little higher.

 

[Twinkles]

im pretty sure all characters could time out popo if they had the lead if they really wanted to

that is actually kinda interesting

think sopo would sacrifice a stock in order to NOT get into a situation like that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

^happens in teams(or it used to)

hit the popo away then wreck his partner but don't kill popo...he decides to kill himself pretty quickly afterward lol


PS'ing and quick side platform waveland/Fair tricks tend to allow Marth to handle lasers just fine vs Falco

PS'ing handles certain approaches and camping, and platforms/WD OOS/aerial OOS handle approaches from Falco.

This is all as Marth, anyway. Marth got easy powershields.


PS'ing is not impossible btw Europe is better than the US at PS'ing(and fighting Falco in general). We just need to stop fearing lasers and learn the best ways to powershield+followup and practice them imo.

 

[Mahone]

that is actually kinda interesting

think sopo would sacrifice a stock in order to NOT get into a situation like that?

i actually do think some sopos would do that...

i know ive seen chu do it, but not against someone who was better than him, so im not sure how hed act if m2k, for example, tried it against him

 

[Divinokage]

That makes me remember at RoM 1 when me and Vwins faced Azen/Chu, he took ICs and then we took Peach/Ganon.. he had to think 5 mins for his character choice. It's probably the best counter vs ICs, lmao.

 

[Mahone]

haha, ya that sounds bad, did u guys win?

 

[Divinokage]

haha, ya that sounds bad, did u guys win?

Oh yes, it was destruction!!

 

[twizzlerj]

Oh yes, it was destruction!!

lmfao amazing

 

[Deleted member]

i actually do think some sopos would do that...

i know ive seen chu do it, but not against someone who was better than him, so im not sure how hed act if m2k, for example, tried it against him

every time i've played against chu in teams, i'd go out of my way to kill nana, then just stall him out while me and my teammate did 2 vs 1 against chu's teammate.

in our 5 sets, chu has never suicided to get nana back once.

against fox zelda ganon peach or falcon, i don't think he should suicide either, nana is way too frail against those characters.

i think ICs beat jigglypuff too.

 

[Mahone]

ya, ive never seen him do it in teams either, but i dont think thats as bad, since his popo is good and isn't gonna get camped (for timeout at least) in teams and nana is fragile in teams anyway

he has a lot of pride in his sopo though, for good reason, so it wouldn't surprise me if hed rather get timed out than sd just to get nana

 

[Bones0]

Dumb question, but how would having Nana even help vs. someone camping you?

 

[choknater]

haha im happy that people are seeing the light about ic puff

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dumb question, but how would having Nana even help vs. someone camping you?

Increased range, increased duration, increased damage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Discussion is starting in 45 minutes. MBR and project members wanting to participate should add me on skype (SveetX) ASAP. Discussion content will be posted later.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

For those of us that aren't in the MBR or project members, would we be able to listen in on the discussion? Or should we wait for the content to be posted?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'll post the context after, so wait for that. This was mostly for those who may have missed my posts in the BR

 

[Divinokage]

I added you, sup?

 

[Bones0]

Increased range, increased duration, increased damage.

Nana doesn't increase your range...

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

How is that my logic?

Maybe because thats the logic you use? >.>

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nana doesn't increase your range...

Ice block with free climber is more range than ice block without free climber. And so forth and so on.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe because thats the logic you use? >.>

How so?

Results-based tiers are pointless

 

[Bones0]

Ice block with free climber is more range than ice block without free climber. And so forth and so on.

But Jiggs wouldn't be on the ground if she's camping ICs.

 

[JPOBS]

I'll post the context after, so wait for that. This was mostly for those who may have missed my posts in the BR

stream this ***. Call Peef, idk figure something out you noobs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

But Jiggs wouldn't be on the ground if she's camping ICs.

Nanapult

Squall hammer that moves somewhere

So forth and so on

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

stream this ***. Call Peef, idk figure something out you noobs.

I'll stream my text screen

edit- Heres the chat

Participants: Sveet, Kage, Little England, Unknown522, KirbyKaze, Fly Amanita, Dr. PeePee, Pink Reaper, Umbreon, Strong Bad, Weon-X. Also VaNz was online the whole time but didn't say anything xD
[collapse=chat][19:44:41] Joe Fortman: OK TIME TO STARTT
[19:44:44] Umbreon: cause i'm a douche
[19:44:45] Ryan Ford: Lol. He loves to hear himself talk
[19:44:47] Joe Fortman: Before we start I want to say a couple things. First, lets try to keep things civil. This will be posted for the community to read. Second, Try to post full ideas each time you press enter. This will make sure people are responding to full ideas and not interrupting before you finish. Third, please try to keep on topic. When it seems like discussion has run out on a topic, I will continue on the agenda.
[19:44:49] Jeremy Westfahl: Do people not in the MBR who are participating know the criteria we're using?
[19:45:22] Umbreon: who do we have in this chat, by SWF alias?
[19:45:25] Ryan Ford: Good question
[19:45:32] Joe Fortman: Sveet
[19:45:46] Roustane Benzeguir: I'm not even sure what we are supposed to do exactly.
[19:45:59] Ryan Ford: Unknown522
[19:46:00] Strong Bad: Weon-x, KK, VanZ, Fly Amanita, Sveet, PP, Little England, Pink Reaper, Kage, Unknown, SwiftBass, Umbreon, Strong Bad and whoever nickkooy is
[19:46:08] Joe Fortman: nickkooy = rat
[19:46:12] Strong Bad: oh, k
[19:46:31] Pink Reaper: yo Unknown, you're not the Unknown from the MVC3 community right?
[19:46:39] Ryan Ford: Nope
[19:46:44] Strong Bad: that'd be unkn0wn
[19:46:47] Pink Reaper: cus i know you do play lol
[19:47:08] Ryan Ford: MvC3 is dumb
[19:47:12] Ryan Ford: Like brawl
[19:47:21] Roustane Benzeguir: no way..
[19:47:29] Roustane Benzeguir: comparing mvc to brawl, cmon..
[19:47:38] Ryan Ford: Hehe
[19:47:40] Pink Reaper: MVC3 is pretty stupid lol
[19:47:41] Strong Bad: yea that's pretty hrash
[19:47:47] Umbreon: i think falco da bess
[19:47:50] Umbreon: falco @ #1
[19:47:51] Ryan Ford: I'm more of an MvC2 guy
[19:47:56] Umbreon: 1 down 25 to go?
[19:47:59] Pink Reaper: I can agree with Falco at 1
[19:48:01] Strong Bad: yes, falco #1
[19:48:03] Ryan Ford: Anyways, melee discussion
[19:48:04] Roustane Benzeguir: Falco, fox, Sheik, Jiggs, Marth, Peach
[19:48:07] Joe Fortman: To get the ball rolling, lets talk about how many tiers there should be. There is the classic Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom ordering; the SABCDEF... ordering; or Viable Semi-Viable Unviable ordering
[19:48:17] Strong Bad: SABCDEF
[19:48:25] Pink Reaper: I like 3 tiered
[19:48:27] Umbreon: SABCDEF
[19:48:29] Pink Reaper: Viable/Semi/Non
[19:48:42] Umbreon: 3 tiered makes more sense if you want to be non-traditional
[19:48:44] Ryan Ford: Top/high/mid/etc
[19:48:46] Roustane Benzeguir: SABCDEF
[19:48:46] Pink Reaper: if only because Non-Viable is so hard to actually rank
[19:49:03] Umbreon: we don't have to rank within tiers, technically tiers are supposed to be even
[19:49:17] Strong Bad: viable/semi/non is too pessimistic for my tastes
[19:49:20] Little England: ^wat umbreon said
[19:49:39] Roustane Benzeguir: Top tier, High tier, low tier, bottom tier? lol
[19:49:40] Strong Bad: would rather just say "this group is good, then this group is not as good, then this group is even worse" rather than "These characters can't do well in tourney"
[19:49:50] Little England: the grouping matters the most imo. the order within the group is not as important
[19:50:06] Little England: I agree with strongbad
[19:50:10] Ryan Ford: Hmmm
[19:50:12] Umbreon: i think we should either go SABCDEF or viable, semi-viable, non-viable
[19:50:13] Pink Reaper: You say that, but the community will spend weeks murdering each other to prove Zelda > m2
[19:50:21] Roustane Benzeguir: ..
[19:50:22] Umbreon: zelda is >> mewtwo
[19:50:24] Umbreon: >_>
[19:50:29] Strong Bad: yeah and we can ignore them because i hate stupid people
[19:50:39] Umbreon: < ignored
[19:50:41] Pink Reaper: look strong bad
[19:50:43] Umbreon: haha
[19:50:43] Ryan Ford: I think ordering is pretty important as well. At least with the top half
[19:50:44] Pink Reaper: everyone hates leffen
[19:50:46 | Edited 19:50:52] Strong Bad: kaostar trying to convince me that M2's shadowball shuts down donkey kong
[19:50:48] Pink Reaper: but that's not important right now
[19:50:53] Roustane Benzeguir: no they dont lol
[19:51:00] Roustane Benzeguir: they like to hate on leffen
[19:51:05] Umbreon: almost everyone hates leffen
[19:51:16] Pink Reaper: Mike Haggar hates leffen
[19:51:20] Umbreon: i hate leffen
[19:51:21] Strong Bad: Mike Swaggar
[19:51:21] Joe Fortman: OK
[19:51:22] Pink Reaper: when you're somehow worse than Mike Haggar
[19:51:23] Joe Fortman: well it seems
[19:51:23] Pink Reaper: you've lost
[19:51:34] Joe Fortman: that SABCD seems most popular
[19:51:40] Strong Bad: yea buddy
[19:51:43] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[19:51:44] Umbreon: ok
[19:51:46] Ryan Ford: Yeah
[19:51:51] Ryan Ford: Next
[19:51:56] Pink Reaper: can i put forth a motion to leave D tier as "Unviable"?
[19:52:00] Joe Fortman:
[19:52:11] Strong Bad: oh, and after the tier list is made we should specify the low tier cutoff for tourneys
[19:52:20] Little England: thats fine
[19:52:21] Strong Bad: because i kind of want low tier tourneys to happen again
[19:52:36] Umbreon: can we replace "S Tier" with "Frame One Down Bs are Bull**** Tier"?
[19:52:47] Pink Reaper: Also we need an SS tier
[19:52:48] Joe Fortman: inb4 sb puts DK at 26th to skew the results so DK can be in low tier tourneys
[19:52:49] Strong Bad: idk does sheik's downb activate frame 1?
[19:52:49] Pink Reaper: for Meta Knight
[19:53:01] Umbreon: i don't think sheik is top tier tbh
[19:53:11] Joe Fortman: Ok thats next on the agenda so lets hit it
[19:53:13] Ryan Ford: Why?
[19:53:13] Joe Fortman: who is top tier
[19:53:18] Pink Reaper: FFS
[19:53:22] Pink Reaper: Falco Fox Shiek
[19:53:22] Umbreon: IMO top tier is falco fox jigglypuff
[19:53:25] Joe Fortman: is top tier fox/falco only or fox/falco/shiek/marth/puff/peach.... etc
[19:53:25] Strong Bad: falco fox sheik puff
[19:53:28] Roustane Benzeguir: Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jiggs
[19:53:41] david macdonald: Pikachu Kirby Fox
[19:53:54] Strong Bad: backflip upsmashes only
[19:53:54] Ryan Ford: Falco, fox, sheik, marth, jiggs
[19:53:55] Umbreon: i cut sheik from tops, she feels like the best "fair" character that is ultimately not as good as the unfair ones above her
[19:54:05] Pink Reaper: Sheik is hella unfair
[19:54:10] Strong Bad: sheik is very fair
[19:54:11] Roustane Benzeguir: sheik is amazing
[19:54:13] Strong Bad: as in, she uses fair a lot.
[19:54:14] Umbreon: i put the first gap in my personal list between jigglypuff and sheik
[19:54:21] Little England: Out of curiousity, are you guys ranking based on results or MUs
[19:54:23] Ryan Ford: Man. Play David for a week
[19:54:32] david macdonald: I'm not good with Sheik
[19:54:33] Ryan Ford: See how unfair sheik is
[19:54:35] Pink Reaper: I find it odd that people still are on this "jiggs da bess" thing
[19:54:39] Umbreon: yeah sheik is ****ing phenominal, she just doesn't ignore the rules of the game like fox falco and jigglypuff do
[19:54:57] Roustane Benzeguir: shes not the best but she can put it in work very often, her punish game is amazing
[19:55:01] Strong Bad: opinion-based tier list, so people can use their own criteria for ranking @ Little England
[19:55:05] Umbreon: nothing sheik has bypasses the rules that other characters have to play by
[19:55:05] Ryan Ford: But has an infinite combo in the 2 best characters...
[19:55:17] Strong Bad: just try not to rank a character based on how you like their alt colors and we're fine
[19:55:30] Little England: LOL
[19:55:35] Pink Reaper: Green Falco > Blue Falco >>>>>> Red Falco
[19:55:41] Roustane Benzeguir: Green everything > the rest
[19:55:43] Strong Bad: all falcos are gay
[19:55:47] Joe Fortman: green.
[19:55:53] Little England: leffen is the only one that agrees with me when I say marth is 2nd
[19:55:57] Pink Reaper: Purple Ganon > Green ganon
[19:56:02] Roustane Benzeguir: (Joe let's green greens friendlies in Chicago, )
[19:56:04] Little England: Fox Marth Falco Sheik Puff
[19:56:05] Jeremy Westfahl: Before I started going neutral everything, I went mostly green
[19:56:07] Joe Fortman:
[19:56:19] Ryan Ford: ...
[19:56:27] Strong Bad: imo marth is hurt the most by metagame advancements. the metagame has advanced to where "You move at the first instant you can" and that ****s on characers whose hitboxes don't linger at all.
[19:56:27] Pink Reaper: I will never agree with Marth > Falco lol
[19:56:30] Umbreon: anyway i guesss i can get behind sheik in top tier if you think vanish stall is broken
[19:56:43] Joe Fortman: so its fairly unanomous that fox and falco are both top tier
[19:56:50] Strong Bad: punishing marth was a lot harder before people started getting good at
[19:56:52] Strong Bad: that
[19:56:56] Little England: I also wanted to bring up including sheik/zelda as one character and separate
[19:57:05] Strong Bad: this ain't barwl
[19:57:12] Umbreon: they're clearly separate IMO
[19:57:13] Pink Reaper: Sheik/Zelda doesnt happen
[19:57:15] Roustane Benzeguir: its very good and and I mean her edgeguards are amazing vs any character as well.. on stage if shes able to stay away with good space, she had good advantage vs any character.
[19:57:16] Pink Reaper: unless you want to save needles
[19:57:17] Ryan Ford: I think Shino stall sucks
[19:57:20] Strong Bad: cosmo doesn't play anymore also
[19:57:23] Strong Bad: so not relevant
[19:57:24] Umbreon: i play both and even i only pick one for the match
[19:57:48] Umbreon: i think shino stall is good but limited and not broken, thus i can't put sheik in top tier, personally
[19:57:54] Roustane Benzeguir: though sheik is kinda of stuck in shield almost like Falcon/Ganon.
[19:58:04] Umbreon: i think sheik is the tippy top of A tier though, with peach and marth
[19:58:14] Little England: I say it because, when you think about it Zelda/Sheik isssss one character. And Zelda>ICs which may have an effect on people's opinions.
[19:58:19] david macdonald: sheik stuck in shield...?
[19:58:24] Umbreon: zelda ICs is even
[19:58:29] Roustane Benzeguir: She doesnt have much options OOS
[19:58:29] Jeremy Westfahl: Sheik's faster jump-start helps a lot OoS
[19:58:34] david macdonald: she has nair and WD into fast moves
[19:58:40] david macdonald: plus standard options and a gigantic shield grab
[19:58:44] david macdonald: what else do i need
[19:58:45] Roustane Benzeguir: Ya but thats why its predictable
[19:58:45] *** Joe Fortman added captain BJ ***
[19:58:52] Roustane Benzeguir: her limited options OOS can get punished
[19:58:53] Pink Reaper: predictable isnt necissarily bad
[19:58:54] Little England: its not that big a deal to me. Cosmo thought the matchup was 70-30 when I asked him lol
[19:58:56] Pink Reaper: Jiggs will Bair
[19:59:01] Pink Reaper: we can all predict that correct?
[19:59:05] Ryan Ford: What? Sheik has one of the best oos games aside from the spacies
[19:59:08] Umbreon: cosmo doesn't live with chudat
[19:59:11] Umbreon: >_>
[19:59:20] david macdonald: personally i think peach is better oos than sheik
[19:59:26] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[19:59:29] Roustane Benzeguir: i also think that
[19:59:31] Umbreon: why KK?
[19:59:33] david macdonald: since half of armada's style is shielding
[19:59:33] Jeremy Westfahl: Cosmo bases his opinion on Zelda vs. ICs on his experience with Trail probably
[19:59:38] Jeremy Westfahl: and Trail's style is probably awful against Zelda
[19:59:46] Umbreon: trail is awful
[19:59:48] captain BJ: this is lame and everyone here should be ashamed
[19:59:53] captain BJ: BYE
[19:59:57] Pink Reaper: Says Captain BJ
[19:59:58] Little England: thats quite possible
[20:00:00] Umbreon: lol s2j
[20:00:02] Little England: I'd like to see chu vs cosmo
[20:00:10] Roustane Benzeguir: is cosmo going to FC?
[20:00:16] Joe Fortman: no @ kage
[20:00:18] Umbreon: i think chu would win
[20:00:22] Little England: but when you think about the MU you can kinda see why zelda might win it
[20:00:23] Roustane Benzeguir: tsk.. i want to play him already!
[20:00:23] Umbreon: he has soooo much exp vs me
[20:00:29] Little England: ya I think he would
[20:00:37] Umbreon: i beat chu like 60-40
[20:00:39] Pink Reaper: Btw Max
[20:00:43] Umbreon: hmm
[20:00:43] Pink Reaper: if you're still in Fl
[20:00:46] Umbreon: yeah
[20:00:50] Pink Reaper: that means you DIDNT just up and leave Chu there
[20:00:52] Ryan Ford: Wow chat is pandemonium
[20:00:57] Pink Reaper: which i still think you shoul
[20:00:59] Strong Bad: also I have bad news
[20:01:00] Pink Reaper: *should
[20:01:04] Little England: ya we need to get back on track XD
[20:01:05] Roustane Benzeguir: well anyway, I still think sheik is top tier
[20:01:06] Strong Bad: AnDaLe has apparently moved to my area
[20:01:06 | Edited 20:01:31] Joe Fortman: Try to post full ideas each time you press enter. This will make sure people are responding to full ideas and not interrupting before you finish
[20:01:35] Pink Reaper: Where does everyone have Peach?
[20:01:42] Roustane Benzeguir: high tier
[20:01:42] Strong Bad: yeah I don't think we should be putting gaps in our tier lists, the tier list has always separated tiers based on the differences in average points
[20:01:43] david macdonald: 6
[20:01:45] Umbreon: 5th
[20:01:49] Joe Fortman: 6th
[20:01:54] Strong Bad: peach is 6th on my list
[20:01:55] Roustane Benzeguir: 6th
[20:01:57] Umbreon: 2nd in A tier, behind sheik but ahead of marth
[20:01:59] Pink Reaper: 6th on mine
[20:02:03] Pink Reaper: behind Marth/Jiggs
[20:02:08] Little England: 6
[20:02:09] Roustane Benzeguir: i think marths can do better in general
[20:02:21] Little England: I think marth is fantastic
[20:02:21] Joe Fortman: i agree kage
[20:02:23] Strong Bad: i still think marth is better.
[20:02:23] Umbreon: i do too, but right now the marth players are terrible
[20:02:26] Joe Fortman: marth is very underrated atm
[20:02:31] Ryan Ford: 6th
[20:02:35] Strong Bad: lol how is that relevant to how good the character is umbreon
[20:02:47] Roustane Benzeguir: yes he is definitely, you see so many miss opportunities from marths atm, in any tournament.. =/
[20:02:59] Strong Bad: marth players suck. conclusion: marth players suck, not marth
[20:03:04] Jeremy Westfahl: Marth players being bad negatively impacts the popular opinion of the character if nothing else
[20:03:09] Umbreon: a tier list measures the relative goodness of the character, if the character is represented poorly, the character is not as good for tournaments
[20:03:19] Ryan Ford: ....
[20:03:24] Roustane Benzeguir: ya but there was ken and m2k.. at least
[20:03:32] Pink Reaper: that's contradictory in and of itself max
[20:03:34] Umbreon: they're definitely associated, they're not independent
[20:03:38] captain BJ: *** yall
[20:03:42] Ryan Ford: Kage it's a trap
[20:03:43] david macdonald: i love s2j
[20:03:48] *** Joe Fortman removed captain BJ from this conversation. ***
[20:03:51] Little England: hurray for johnny =D
[20:03:57] Strong Bad: i'd rather just do a character rankings list based on SSBPD if you want to go into that; i do not base my opinion on how well players are doing with their character and I don't think many do.
[20:04:00] Little England: wtf sveet
[20:04:02] Umbreon: i could see marth over peach, i won't fight you guys on it
[20:04:19] Umbreon: but atm peach is definitely doing better, and its not just armada
[20:04:33] Pink Reaper: I cant actually name any other peaches besides armada who are winning
[20:04:35] Strong Bad: i will agree that peach players are performing better than marth players, that fact is obvious.
[20:04:36] Pink Reaper: except MacD
[20:04:46] Strong Bad: macd places 9th at every tourney
[20:04:48] Umbreon: this is like 3 years ago when everyone said fox is better than falco, it's just that all the fox players suck. ALL OF THEM
[20:04:54] Strong Bad: you can't say the same for any marth player.
[20:04:54] Pink Reaper: no
[20:04:59] Pink Reaper: Falcomist places 9th at every tourney
[20:05:04] Strong Bad: every national*
[20:05:09] david macdonald: I wish Vwins was better
[20:05:16] Strong Bad: macd gets 9th at like gen2 and apex iirc
[20:05:20] Umbreon: vwins was really fun to play lol
[20:05:39] Pink Reaper: I still think Fox is a better character, just it's not possible for players to stay at the conistant level to keep him first
[20:06:03] Umbreon: i think fox's useful tech skill is actually easier than falcos, i don't think consistency is fox's problem
[20:06:09] Strong Bad: fox is ***ing hard, i used fox for an hr against darkrain and my hands hurt afterward
[20:06:14] Little England: Everyone looks at player vs player vs player rather than concrete character vs character info. I think the point should be to avoid variation, but how can that be done by looking at player performance.
[20:06:19] Strong Bad: use falco for 3, no problems
[20:06:32] Roustane Benzeguir: Umbreon, you said Marth's underperformed so he should be ranked lower, but then why didnt you rank Fox lower since they dont do well either?
[20:06:43] Umbreon: fox does really well in california
[20:06:53] Umbreon: there's like 3 foxes in the top 5 all the time
[20:07:07] Pink Reaper: and Doc constantly in the top 3
[20:07:12] Pink Reaper: therefore Doc > Fox
[20:07:15] Umbreon: well i think doc is underrated too
[20:07:22] Umbreon: but we're not there yet
[20:07:32] Pink Reaper: Ca is an amazing scene but you cant weight it that heavily
[20:07:40] Umbreon: why not
[20:07:43] Umbreon: CA has tournaments
[20:07:50] Umbreon: lots of them
[20:07:57] Roustane Benzeguir: I dont think its fair to rank it like that, you should rank the world
[20:08:08] Pink Reaper: except canada
[20:08:13] Pink Reaper: canada doesnt count
[20:08:14] Umbreon: fox does well in new england too
[20:08:14] Little England: you should rank characters not players
[20:08:25] Roustane Benzeguir: im everywhere not just canada.
[20:08:33] Umbreon: characters ~= players if you think about it
[20:08:39] Roustane Benzeguir: almost
[20:08:45] Umbreon: not completely but they're def related
[20:08:56] Umbreon: they're at least NOT independent variables
[20:09:03] Little England: true
[20:09:14] Roustane Benzeguir: well i could say my nose represents Ganondorf but..
[20:09:27] Ryan Ford: Lol
[20:09:37] Umbreon: fox does really, really well overall, we just have falco dittos in nationals finals so i think falco is slightly better than fox
[20:10:08] Joe Fortman: umbreon, in a perfectly saturated community, you can look at players ~= characters, but the melee scene is far from that.
[20:10:14] Strong Bad: ^
[20:10:26] Umbreon: define perfectly saturated, what do you mean
[20:10:32] Strong Bad: anyway i'd much rather argue that falco is better than fox because of his character qualities not because pp and mango always fight each other in finals
[20:10:38] Little England: the way I see it is like this. if we need evidence of a certain strategy or something for a MU then it's 100% appropriate to look at players/videos. But we can't rank characters based on results.
[20:10:57] david macdonald: Fox is very squishy
[20:10:59] Pink Reaper: Results do matter
[20:11:17] Umbreon: if you argue purely on character qualities and not who wins then you've missed the point of the tier list, the point of the tier list is to rank characters from most winningest to least winningest
[20:11:19] david macdonald: Fox is squishier than Falco vs combo damage
[20:11:24] Umbreon: falco wins more than fox
[20:11:25] Pink Reaper: I remember from the last tier list discussion when talking about Samus people would say it was "only HugS" but if Hugo can do it it should be repeatable by others
[20:11:34 | Edited 20:11:39] Strong Bad: that's your definition of a tier list
[20:11:36] Pink Reaper: whether or not it is repeated is another thing
[20:11:43] Umbreon: no, that's THE definition of a tier list
[20:11:50] Umbreon: if you got something else, you're doing it wrong
[20:12:03] david macdonald: Falco should be squishier than Fox in recovery but he has some stuff that deters people from taking certain liberties they take vs Fox
[20:12:17] david macdonald: And people are generally better at comboing than they are at edgeguarding
[20:12:17] Strong Bad: frame 5 spike
[20:12:52] Pink Reaper: Edgeguarding Spacies is the easiest thing in this game >_>
[20:13:00] Pink Reaper: no one should be bad at it
[20:13:07] Roustane Benzeguir: that depends who you use
[20:13:08] david macdonald: I think Sheik is much easier to edgeguard
[20:13:16] Joe Fortman: ^
[20:13:17] david macdonald: But that might just be my inner character bias talking
[20:13:27] Strong Bad: i disagree, edgeguarding spacies at times requires reads while most other characters require patience and basic edgeguarding loops
[20:13:48] Roustane Benzeguir: covering options is dependant of character of course, sometimes you'd need more prediction to make the correct call
[20:13:50] Umbreon: anyway if we're going to say that character attributes are all that matters, we can go back to putting bowser @ 3rd, i don't think anyone wants to see that
[20:14:11] Strong Bad: provided you're fighting a good spacie and not that stupid hold toward the stage and mash jump ****
[20:14:12] Joe Fortman: umbreon, i've always disagreed with that bowser @ #3 in "theory"
[20:14:18] Joe Fortman: theres no evidence
[20:14:25] Kevin Nanney: realistic character attributes, not perfect play ones, would be what we should use if we decide to use character attributes
[20:14:29] Umbreon: i disagree with bowser @ 3rd because he doesn't win tournaments
[20:14:31] Pink Reaper: let's not get into the TAS Tier List please
[20:14:38] Joe Fortman: [20:14] Kevin Nanney:

<<< realistic character attributes, not perfect play ones, would be what we should use if we decide to use character attributes
[20:14:42] Pink Reaper: im with kevin
[20:14:44] Ryan Ford: Yeah, please
[20:14:45] Strong Bad: umbreon your hyperbole e.g. bowser is obnoxious. i'm using realistic character qualities that are relevant in tournament.
[20:14:49] Little England: A tier list should be based on the potential ability of a character given current human error
[20:14:59] Strong Bad: people like john! bring that **** up, not you, cmon now
[20:15:02] Little England: wat pp said
[20:15:08] Umbreon: i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can't base our tier list on perceived value of character attributes, any idiot can do that and it's just a waste of our time
[20:15:09] Pink Reaper: ****ing john!
[20:15:32] Pink Reaper: but any idiot can also look at results and say X wins therefore X is the best
[20:15:45] Umbreon: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286224
[20:15:46] Pink Reaper: why did we never put Jiggs @ 1 then?
[20:15:56] Umbreon: A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.
[20:16:13] Strong Bad: yea u wrote that, i disagree
[20:16:24] Umbreon: this is what the MBR has used for its tier lists since 2003
[20:16:30] Joe Fortman: Sorry strongbad, that is what we are using for this tier list
[20:16:35] Pink Reaper: Mow you're definition of a list is "How likely will PP be in grand finals"
[20:16:36] Joe Fortman: check the first post
[20:16:37] Umbreon: thats what a tier list is
[20:16:43] Umbreon: the definition is not negotiable
[20:16:58] Strong Bad: k then sveet
[20:17:01] Strong Bad: next topic
[20:17:02] Jeremy Westfahl: Arguing about definitions is silly.
[20:17:05] Umbreon: we have some excellent players that bias our list, we should accept the data, not reject it
[20:17:31] Pink Reaper: soo we all agree then, Peach is 6th?
[20:17:36] Roustane Benzeguir: yes
[20:17:40] Umbreon: peach can be 6th yes
[20:17:46] Strong Bad: peach is either 5th or 6th on just about everyone's list
[20:18:01] Joe Fortman: [20:15] Umbreon:

<<< i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can't base our tier list on perceived value of character attributes, any idiot can do that and it's just a waste of our timeI disagree. It takes an expertise to understand the subtle characteristics of each character and rank the characters by these traits
[20:18:02] Umbreon: i think i was the only person to put her @ 5th, but i'm ok with 6th also
[20:18:24] Umbreon: frankly I think jihn! can rank character attributes better than any of us can
[20:18:30] Umbreon: john!
[20:18:42] Strong Bad: that's fairly insulting
[20:18:47] Kevin Nanney: a couple ways to handle this predicament umbreon mentioned:

1. base a list solely off of attributes. this is most subjective and hardest to agree upon.

2. combine attritbutes+results. this allows for some leeway to be made in discussions and agreements to be made regarding character placement. still allows for opinions outside of typical results to be weighed fairly.

3. attributes+results+potential. adding in a little above current level human play can also be used at times or overall if people wish to project what the metagame will be like later. That is a tricky argument to use because no one can know how a metagame will turn out.


theres also results of course.

everyone doesnt necessarily have to agree but if they did it would make discussion a LOT easier
[20:19:21] Umbreon: well I vote for #2
[20:19:24] Little England: #2
[20:19:35] Ryan Ford: 2
[20:19:46] Pink Reaper: 2 is the only choice imo
[20:19:58] Strong Bad: yea 3 just seems useless
[20:20:23] Roustane Benzeguir: 2 i guess
[20:20:27] Joe Fortman: #3, but with 1 being the most important, 2 next, and 3rd slightly important (but hard to bring to the table because of obvious reasons)
[20:20:34] Umbreon: The Tier List: Peach is 6th
[20:20:47] Jeremy Westfahl: Maybe I missed something, but I don't see why we are voting on how we're determining this list when we already had a definition for the list
[20:21:03] Ryan Ford: Good point
[20:21:06] Little England: I think people are interpreting the definition differently
[20:21:07] Joe Fortman: Jeremy, the definition is open to interpretation
[20:21:22] Umbreon: it's really not, thats what a tier list is
[20:21:32] Pink Reaper: we have a lot of definitions for the list, and few are in actual agreement
[20:21:39] Umbreon: you can't change a definition, you're just making it something else
[20:21:41] Pink Reaper: except mow, mow fully agrees with his definition
[20:21:46] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:21:47] Strong Bad: kind of why we do opinion-based
[20:21:58] Strong Bad: you have no guarantee that the panelists agree with the definition and base their list on it
[20:22:04] Pink Reaper: let's get back to the actual list
[20:22:04] Strong Bad: but we do it anyway
[20:22:09] Pink Reaper: like
[20:22:14] Pink Reaper: the middle tiers
[20:22:23] Umbreon: a tier list rates relative goodness, we only have 1 type of data to help us do it >_>
[20:22:33] Roustane Benzeguir: ICs, Doc, Ganon, Samus
[20:22:42] Pink Reaper: where's falcon?
[20:22:48] Strong Bad: ICs, Falcon, Doc, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu.
[20:22:48] Roustane Benzeguir: whoops
[20:22:52] Strong Bad: that's the order on my list
[20:23:05] Roustane Benzeguir: Falcon, ICs, Doc, Ganon, Samus
[20:23:07] Pink Reaper: Falcon, Doc, ICs, Ganon, Samus, Pika
[20:23:10] Joe Fortman: Ok lets talk about ICs vs Falcon
[20:23:10] Strong Bad: tier list assumes wobbling legal AFAIK, put ICs under Falcon if banned.
[20:23:14] Joe Fortman: not the match-up, but ordering
[20:23:16] Umbreon: ICs, Falcon, Doc, Ganon, Samus, Pikachu
[20:23:17] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon, Pika, Samus**
[20:24:01] Strong Bad: imo Falcon's competitive playstyle requires reads and his recovery is more exploitable
[20:24:06] Strong Bad: in comparison to ICs
[20:24:11] Strong Bad: making him a less consistent tournament threat
[20:24:23] Umbreon: i would put ICs under falcon if wobbling was banned, but i think we should assume for now that it's not banned
[20:24:34] Roustane Benzeguir: Falcon is fast and he can kill really fast off one or 2 reads though
[20:24:42] Ryan Ford: Ok wobbling legal
[20:24:53] Little England: no reason to ban wobbling at allllllllllllll
[20:24:59] Strong Bad: yes kage, we all know falcon is fast
[20:24:59] Umbreon: falcon currently struggles with fox falco jigglypuff and sheik, that's not where you want to be in our meta
[20:25:04] Pink Reaper: He doesnt even need real reads for a lot of it, He can just do Throw->knee on a lot of characters
[20:25:18] Umbreon: ICs are better against fox falco somewhat and definitely better against jigglypuff and sheik
[20:25:23] Strong Bad: specifically against characters like fox falco sheik, pink reaper. you know the ones that are 75% of the bracket.
[20:25:42] Roustane Benzeguir: Ya but ICs suffers more from mid tier characters and also peach
[20:25:50] Pink Reaper: ICs lose to stage CPing harder than any other character imo
[20:25:55] Umbreon: definitely, falcon bodies mid-tiers
[20:25:59] Strong Bad: yeah
[20:26:05] Joe Fortman: ICs is worse vs fox than falcon is
[20:26:06] Ryan Ford: Ok I think ICs are At least 5th with wobbling legal
[20:26:18] Umbreon: I'd agree @ the CP thing but all of the stages that screw them over are banned pretty much now
[20:26:22] Strong Bad: although outside of like, zelda (??) i don't see ICs having issues with mid tier
[20:26:23] Umbreon: like brinstar
[20:26:24] Joe Fortman: and ICs is worse against marth and peach than falcon
[20:26:32] Roustane Benzeguir: oh yes
[20:26:35] Strong Bad: oh yeah, that's something else i wanted to bring up
[20:26:40] Umbreon: and falcon is better vs himself
[20:26:44] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:26:54] Pink Reaper: But ICs lose a ton of momentum the second a stage with platforms is chosen
[20:27:05] Strong Bad: does this tier list assume that weird ruleset where FD isn't a starter, or the MBR ruleset that every tourney uses?
[20:27:08] Jeremy Westfahl: I don't know if ICs are worse against Marth than Falcon is, not that I think either match-up strays far from even
[20:27:11] Roustane Benzeguir: even with wobbling, im personally not scared to fight one
[20:27:19] Umbreon: with wobbling legal, CPs mostly banned, and sheik fox falco jigglypuff being more important than marth peach falcon, i put ICs over falcon
[20:27:51] Joe Fortman: [20:27] Strong Bad:

<<< does this tier list assume that weird ruleset where FD isn't a starter, or the MBR ruleset that every tourney uses?I don't think this list should be done with the "assume FD is played every set" ruleset
[20:28:06] Strong Bad: why? that's the ruleset that every relevant tourney uses
[20:28:09] Joe Fortman: no its not.
[20:28:26] Joe Fortman: its actually a very outside of the box rulset
[20:28:30] Pink Reaper: he's saying FD is legal not FD is the first stage Sveet
[20:28:35] Joe Fortman: that only a handful of tourneys have used
[20:28:50] Umbreon: i see FD banned a lotttttt
[20:28:51] Joe Fortman: im saying the ruleset where FD is legal and can't be banned
[20:29:00] Joe Fortman: should not be used for this list
[20:29:05] Roustane Benzeguir: only in best of 5s though
[20:29:06] Umbreon: i agree with sveet
[20:29:10] Strong Bad: plus not every tourney does bo5s for all bracket
[20:29:19] Strong Bad: in fact, very few
[20:29:20] Roustane Benzeguir: its rare i see tourneys all best of 5s in bracket
[20:29:35] Joe Fortman: so you agree with me?
[20:29:41] Umbreon: i agree with you yes
[20:30:24] Strong Bad: it's particularly weird to me that the mbr tier list assumes a ruleset different from the mbr recommended ruleset, but if that's the case then i'll adjust my list accordingly
[20:30:40] Umbreon: the rule set needs updated too probably
[20:30:50] Pink Reaper: we can do that after the tier list
[20:31:02] Umbreon: i still see bans used a lot though
[20:31:08] Joe Fortman: the funny thing is
[20:31:14] Umbreon: the CP system is hugely important to the tier list for obvious reasons
[20:31:17] Roustane Benzeguir: FD is striked and banned often for sure vs ICs
[20:31:19] Joe Fortman: DSRM and stage bans arent mutually exclusive.. you can have them both
[20:31:22] Joe Fortman: no reason to remove stage bans
[20:31:39] Umbreon: i still put ICs over falcon even when FD can be banned
[20:31:44] Strong Bad: ^
[20:31:44] Joe Fortman: ok
[20:31:47] Roustane Benzeguir: mmm..
[20:31:59] Pink Reaper: I'd keep ICs < Doc when FD is banned lol
[20:32:03] Roustane Benzeguir: Fly how many times s2j outplaced you?
[20:32:23] Jeremy Westfahl: A lot. I don't keep track
[20:32:28] Roustane Benzeguir: hmm..
[20:32:34] Jeremy Westfahl: He always beats me in the head to head, but we do similarly against most other people
[20:32:36] Roustane Benzeguir: do you guys put wobbling legal?
[20:32:56] Strong Bad: sveet, wobbling's just assumed to be legal in the tier list right?
[20:32:58] Joe Fortman: This is my take on ICs vs Falcon

ICs do better against: Falco, Sheik
Falcon: Peach, Marth, Falcon, ICs
~the same: fox, puff
[20:33:02] Joe Fortman: yes, wobbling legal
[20:33:04] Strong Bad: k
[20:33:09] Ryan Ford: Does fly ever wobble anyway?
[20:33:11] Jeremy Westfahl: It's usually legal, but I don't wobble often since I rarely land clean enough grabs to confidently start a wobble before people mash out
[20:33:16] Joe Fortman: falcon also doesn't lose to platform camping
[20:33:18] Pink Reaper: Ics def do better against Puff than Falcon
[20:33:23] Joe Fortman: and doesn't have problems with any mid/low tiers
[20:33:47] Umbreon: ICs are wayyyyy better against jigglypuff, i honestly have no idea hoe falcons beat jigglypuff sometimes
[20:33:52] Strong Bad: again what mid/low tiers does ICs have problems with, cept maybe zelda
[20:33:57] Umbreon: how*
[20:33:57] Roustane Benzeguir: So ya ICs get easily separately a lot then, all you need is one hit and then you can mash out of grab fast enough before a wobble happens anyway
[20:34:09] Ryan Ford: ICs 10-0 more low tiers than falcon does, lol
[20:34:14] Umbreon: falcon is way better vs ganon and samus too
[20:34:20] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:34:29] Strong Bad: yes, he does better against those high tier characters
[20:34:50] Pink Reaper: Falcon does way better against ICs than the ICs do
[20:34:52] Roustane Benzeguir: oh falcon/Ganon.. best matchup btw,
[20:34:54] Pink Reaper: also against Falcon
[20:35:01] Little England: i say cf>ics>doc
[20:35:03] Ryan Ford: ICs beat sheik which is kind of rare to beat sheik in this game
[20:35:08] Roustane Benzeguir: im with england
[20:35:21] Pink Reaper: ICs are weird
[20:35:26] Strong Bad: still not sold on ICs > Sheik, I think it's even.
[20:35:27] Pink Reaper: we should give them their own tier
[20:35:28] Umbreon: ICs don't fold hard to falco, pretty important
[20:35:35] Joe Fortman: [20:35] Little England:

<<< i say cf>ics>doc^
[20:35:42] Umbreon: ICs molest the **** out of sheik
[20:35:47] Ryan Ford: They have a close matchup with falco too whereas falcon is falco's *****
[20:35:51] Umbreon: literally all she can do is SH fade FF autocancel fair
[20:36:01] Strong Bad: where's the tourney results to support that claim umbreon
[20:36:19] Umbreon: chu never lost to a sheik ever for like 6+ years
[20:36:20] Umbreon: >_>
[20:36:23] Roustane Benzeguir: lol
[20:36:27] Roustane Benzeguir: holy
[20:36:27] Joe Fortman: m2k's sheik
[20:36:28] Umbreon: idk more recent **** since he stopped playing
[20:36:30] Pink Reaper: But Fly > Chu
[20:36:30] Strong Bad: yeah, but we're in 2012
[20:36:40] Umbreon: i think fly >> chu also
[20:36:58] Little England: m2k beat chu one match and then nothing else like that has happened before
[20:37:00] Umbreon: ok even now what sheiks are beating jeremy or wobbles
[20:37:06] Pink Reaper: we should give ICs their own tier and name it "Fly is the only ICs" Tier
[20:37:10] Roustane Benzeguir: chu beat hbox though and nearly beat m2k.. thats almost top 5 material lol
[20:37:23] Strong Bad: wobbles tho
[20:37:24] Umbreon: chu didn't even play before he got 3rd for like 4 months
[20:37:32] Roustane Benzeguir: idk how he did thaty
[20:37:35] Roustane Benzeguir: that*
[20:37:41] Ryan Ford: Does wobbles face any sheiks?
[20:37:44] Strong Bad: hbox was stupid and kept letting him cp to a stage he won on.
[20:37:55] Strong Bad: all kinds of confused
[20:38:01] Jeremy Westfahl: IIRC, the last time Wobbles played a relevant Sheik was at Genesis 2, at which he beat Lucien
[20:38:01] david macdonald: lucien lost to wobbles fwiw
[20:38:05] david macdonald: ninja'd
[20:38:08] Roustane Benzeguir: hmm..
[20:38:14] Ryan Ford: I remember him getting ***** by that random sheik a week after he got 5th at apex
[20:38:37] Jeremy Westfahl: I think that had more to do with Wobbles being realy off-point than anything else
[20:38:44] Roustane Benzeguir: has chu beaten kdj before?
[20:38:50] Umbreon: wobbles was clearly not at his best at apex
[20:39:01] Pink Reaper: KDJ hasnt been relevant for years now
[20:39:04] Pink Reaper: let's not get on Mow logic here
[20:39:07] Strong Bad: who did wobbles lose to in winners?
[20:39:09] Umbreon: kdj switched to marth to play chu because chu kept 3 stocking his sheik
[20:39:13] Roustane Benzeguir: lol i was just curious
[20:39:18] Ryan Ford: I think wobbling is just op
[20:39:20] Umbreon: mmhmm
[20:39:21] Roustane Benzeguir: alright
[20:39:37] Pink Reaper: Most ICs players dont even care about wobbling
[20:39:38] Roustane Benzeguir: its not op when you know how to seperate ICs though im Ganon biased, lol
[20:39:43] Ryan Ford: But that's not for debate now I guess
[20:39:49] Pink Reaper: since the good ones are competent enough to kill you off a grab anyways
[20:39:55] Umbreon: i don't think wobbling changes a whole lot results wise, it's just relly degenerate to watch
[20:40:00] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:40:03] Jeremy Westfahl: How important wobbling is varies by match-up
[20:40:11] Ryan Ford: Hmm
[20:40:23] Pink Reaper: the only match up i can see it being super useful in is the Jiggs match up
[20:40:31] david macdonald: Marth & Peach
[20:40:37] Little England: i would think it would help more vs characters like puff/peach than falco/sheik
[20:40:43] Umbreon: i think it'd be best vs fox
[20:40:47] Jeremy Westfahl: It's still really useful in other match-ups since most of the ICs' cgs can be escaped with good sdi
[20:41:00] Pink Reaper: but no one has good SDI so it's cool
[20:41:06] Roustane Benzeguir: lol
[20:41:17] Roustane Benzeguir: i disagree
[20:41:20] Jeremy Westfahl: Cali spacies and S2J are generally good at getting out of dair CGs
[20:42:06] Jeremy Westfahl: bizzarro flame will do things like sdi to the ground and grab you before you can re-grab him. I've seen lots of strange things
[20:42:21] Strong Bad: grab, or jab?
[20:42:26] Umbreon: california is a strange land
[20:42:26] Little England: thats cool lol
[20:42:27] Jeremy Westfahl: grab
[20:42:31] Strong Bad: weird
[20:42:35] Pink Reaper: Cali > the world
[20:42:46] Umbreon: in smash, yeah pretty much
[20:42:57] Pink Reaper: also cost of living
[20:42:58] Pink Reaper: dont forget that
[20:43:11] Strong Bad: and MPG
[20:43:27] Little England: cali is also a good place to be broke
[20:43:29] Little England: but anyways
[20:43:35] Umbreon: i think some tiny *** area on long island new york has all of california beat narrowly
[20:43:52] Little England: falcon>ics>doc imo
[20:44:01] Pink Reaper: M2 > Zelda
[20:44:02] Pink Reaper: imo
[20:44:13] Joe Fortman: haha ok
[20:44:21] Joe Fortman: anyone wanna talk about yoshi?
[20:44:24] Pink Reaper: no
[20:44:25] Strong Bad: yoshi sucks
[20:44:27] Umbreon: even w/ so many bad top tier MUs you put falcon over ICs?
[20:44:29] Roustane Benzeguir: not especially
[20:44:33] Strong Bad: below the links
[20:44:37] Pink Reaper: Below Roy
[20:44:41] Umbreon: yoshi is a waste of programming
[20:44:41] Strong Bad: lool
[20:44:43] david macdonald: Roy is legit
[20:44:46] Strong Bad: roy is ****
[20:44:52] Umbreon: roy is better than yoshi
[20:44:59] Roustane Benzeguir: i think yoshi and roy are about even in viability
[20:45:01] david macdonald: Roy's f-smash is pretty good
[20:45:08] Umbreon: roy's dashdance is pretty good
[20:45:16] Strong Bad: yea roy's DD is his best move
[20:45:24] Umbreon: roy's DD is way more degenerate than anything yoshi has
[20:45:43] Roustane Benzeguir: yoshi has fast counter-attacks after parries though
[20:45:49] Umbreon: ....k
[20:45:58] Umbreon: don't jump at him = no parry
[20:46:00] david macdonald: Yeah but parry is a commitment whereas DD isn't. Not really.
[20:46:04] Strong Bad: now that we've got yoshi's ****tiness out of the way anything else on the agenda sveet
[20:46:12] Joe Fortman: hahaha
[20:46:17] Umbreon: falco #1 , peach #6, yoshi #26
[20:46:29] *** Strong Bad has changed the conversation topic to "MBR Tier List: Yoshi #26" ***
[20:46:42] david macdonald: Sveet are you actually streaming this?
[20:46:46] Joe Fortman: no haha
[20:46:50] david macdonald: You should
[20:46:54] david macdonald: I want to talk to the streamchat
[20:46:55] Joe Fortman: im posting the text after
[20:46:57] Pink Reaper: Stream it directly to leffen
[20:47:02] Joe Fortman: lmao
[20:47:16 | Edited 20:47:33] Strong Bad: EDITED for leffen's protection
[20:47:29] Umbreon: whats a leffen fanboy
[20:47:31] Pink Reaper: Dear Mango: I lost to PP, take notes
[20:47:34] Little England: who's gunna read all of this lol
[20:47:56] Roustane Benzeguir: i definitely won't lol
[20:47:57] Joe Fortman: i have LE
[20:48:05] Strong Bad: i have so far read all of this
[20:48:06] Joe Fortman: taken me an hour and a half
[20:48:10] Pink Reaper: let's more on to the lower tiers
[20:48:16] Strong Bad: ok so
[20:48:25] Strong Bad: ganon > samus > pikachu
[20:48:25] Joe Fortman: falcon/ic/doc tier then
[20:48:30] Roustane Benzeguir: so what is it Falcon/ICs/Doc?
[20:48:32] Joe Fortman: ganon samus pika mario?
[20:48:32] Pink Reaper: it's pretty safe to say despite my outlier vote it's gonna be Falcon/ICs, Ganon, Samus, Pika
[20:48:42] Pink Reaper: with doc above Ganon
[20:48:44] Pink Reaper: cus i missed him lol
[20:48:47] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon pika samus, luigi
[20:48:51] Strong Bad: pika > luigi > dk > mario on my list, because mario is ****ing terrible.
[20:49:03] Pink Reaper: I have Luigi > Pika > Mario > DK actually lol
[20:49:09] Umbreon: mario is pretty awful....except dat downthrow
[20:49:13] Pink Reaper: though i think that was a mistake
[20:49:18] Pink Reaper: because i def want Pika > Luigi
[20:49:23] Strong Bad: yea dude he has downthrow -> nair -> nothing
[20:49:24] Joe Fortman: mario has the best jab in the game
[20:49:25] Joe Fortman: haha
[20:49:26] Roustane Benzeguir: pika is def > luigi
[20:49:28] Umbreon: luigi is def after pikachu though
[20:49:41] Little England: doc>ganon>samus>pika/luigi
[20:49:57] Strong Bad: think we're all in agreeance that doc is 9th
[20:50:03] Roustane Benzeguir: ya
[20:50:09] Little England: ya
[20:50:14] Pink Reaper: im not
[20:50:18] Pink Reaper: but no one cares what i think
[20:50:18] Pink Reaper: so let's move on
[20:50:25] Umbreon: i can accept doc @ 9th
[20:50:41] Strong Bad: it's an opinion based tier list anyway, aren't all the lists gonna be averaged? so no big deal if people disagree, just have it represented in your vote
[20:51:08] Umbreon: 1 falco 6 peach 7 falcon 8 ICs 9 doc 10 ganon 11 samus 12 pikachu 13 luigi 26 yoshi
[20:51:18] Pink Reaper: 0 Meta Knight
[20:51:26] Strong Bad: MK is banned, no point in putting him on the list.
[20:51:27] Joe Fortman: is everyone pretty much in agreement about falco?
[20:51:31] Umbreon: i wish melee had more characters so i could vote yoshi lower
[20:51:38] Little England: not really lol
[20:51:47] Strong Bad: yoshi is below master hand
[20:51:52] Umbreon: who wins more than falco?
[20:51:57] Jeremy Westfahl: Add in the wire frames
[20:51:57] Little England: not at all
[20:52:02] Pink Reaper: let's make Zelda?samus one character
[20:52:02] Pink Reaper: so we can put Yoshi at 27th
[20:52:30] Little England: Fox doesn't lose to any character except maaaaaaaaaaaaybe falco.
[20:52:35] Pink Reaper: wow
[20:52:38] Pink Reaper: zelda/samus?
[20:52:39] Pink Reaper: go pink reaper
[20:52:45] Pink Reaper: you meant zelda/shiek
[20:52:46] Umbreon: fox doesn't win as much as falco does though
[20:52:49] Little England: whereas I think Falco loses to ICs and Marth imo
[20:52:58] Strong Bad: can we put demo link AI as a character? he's the AI it uses in event 3: bomb-fest
[20:53:04] Joe Fortman: sheik and zelda will remain separate characters.
[20:53:05] Strong Bad: that way we can have yoshi at 28th
[20:53:15] Ryan Ford: Fox doesn't lose to marth? What is this?
[20:53:15] Little England: purely based on MUs (which is how I form my opinion) Fox>Falco
[20:53:18] Umbreon: both mango and kevin have great records as falco vs marth and ICs i think
[20:53:21] Roustane Benzeguir: if you remove the top 5 in the world from the list, does falco still win or fox? =p
[20:53:29] Pink Reaper: Fighting Polygon Male 26, fighting polygon female 27, yoshi 28
[20:53:34] Strong Bad: yea just ignore the most relevant data kage
[20:53:36] Strong Bad: sounds good
[20:53:47] Strong Bad: fighting polygon? this ain't 64
[20:53:51] Strong Bad: cmon step it up, wireframes
[20:53:54] Pink Reaper: I think Falco's overall match ups are better than Fox's
[20:53:56] Pink Reaper: SHUT UP SB
[20:53:59] Pink Reaper: I woke up at 3am for work
[20:54:02] Pink Reaper: im tired as **** lol
[20:54:02] Jeremy Westfahl: Wobbles thinks Falco is one of ICs' two worst match-ups. I think ICs vs. Falco is even-ish. There isn't a lot of consensus on that match-up
[20:54:14] Jeremy Westfahl: Didn't you just wake up?
[20:54:19] Strong Bad: ICs worst MU is peach right?
[20:54:21] Pink Reaper: yeah, i took an hour nap lol
[20:54:33] Pink Reaper: but im even added in that's all of like, 5 hours of sleep total
[20:54:37] Jeremy Westfahl: I would say so, although Wobbles thinks Falco/Marth are ICs' worst match-ups
[20:54:38] Umbreon: peach on brinstar lol
[20:54:39] Jeremy Westfahl: neither of which I agree with
[20:54:46] Roustane Benzeguir: Marth? ...
[20:54:50] Pink Reaper: Falco?
[20:54:57] Strong Bad: that's fairly strange
[20:54:58] Pink Reaper: Marth/Falcopro?
[20:55:01] Umbreon: usually ICs worst MUs seem to be peach fox and falcon
[20:55:07] Roustane Benzeguir: I guess I need to own him some more, he'll think Ganon is worse
[20:55:09] Umbreon: jeremy? agree/disagree?
[20:55:11] Strong Bad: guess those are just the characters he has trouble with most
[20:55:26] Ryan Ford: That's cuz wobbles is bad vs falco he doesn't even play the matchup often
[20:55:28] Roustane Benzeguir: Ganon does better vs ICs than Falcon
[20:55:44] Strong Bad: so anyway sveet, what's next
[20:55:49] Jeremy Westfahl: I'd say Peach is the hardest, then Falcon and maybe Ganon, and then Fox
[20:56:09] Strong Bad: and is there a reason we're going down the list when we can just post our list and they can be averaged like they're going to be anyway
[20:56:10] Pink Reaper: Having ganon as a bad match up is ok though, because Kage is the only Ganon
[20:56:21] Roustane Benzeguir: ya but thats like saying PP is the only Falco
[20:56:28] Strong Bad: only gonna get more spotty the lower down the list we go
[20:56:30] Umbreon: even with a proposed but debatabler MU advantage, falco definitely wins more than fox
[20:56:31] Pink Reaper: no no, there's also mango
[20:56:36] Umbreon: debatable*
[20:56:40] Jeremy Westfahl: Having Ganon is a bad match-up isn't that big a deal since odds are you aren't going to run into a good Ganon at a major tourney
[20:56:45] Jeremy Westfahl: *as a bad
[20:56:47] Roustane Benzeguir: hehe true
[20:57:01] Pink Reaper: it's like having Y.Link as a bad match up
[20:57:06] Strong Bad: ^
[20:57:06] Roustane Benzeguir: if they were more Kages in tournament ICs wouldn't win as much, j/k
[20:58:01] Jeremy Westfahl: For better or worse, character popularity is a factor in how well a character can perform in a tourney since it determines what match-ups it's most important to be good in
[20:58:06] Jeremy Westfahl: and there just aren't a lot of Ganons
[20:58:17] Joe Fortman: we've pretty much touched on everything on my agenda
[20:58:27] Joe Fortman: does anyone else have something we should talk about?
[20:58:28] Strong Bad: yeah basically, if you're going to use a MU chart then you need to weight based on popularity.
[20:58:49] Strong Bad: having a losing MU to mewtwo isn't relevant if no one uses mewtwo etc
[20:58:54] Umbreon: i know as of 2012, cactuar and pc chris finally agree that falco is better than fox after holding out on that forever
[20:59:07] Pink Reaper: JV thinks Falco is the best
[20:59:17] Strong Bad: ****ing JV
[20:59:20] Umbreon: JV has basically always thought falco was the best though
[20:59:31] Umbreon: JV thought falco was the best in 2003 when i met him
[20:59:33] Pink Reaper: Side note: MLG Sucks
[20:59:37] Umbreon: MLG Sucks
[20:59:39] Strong Bad: i agree
[20:59:40] Strong Bad: MLG sucks
[20:59:49] Jeremy Westfahl: MLG: Yoshi tier
[20:59:56] Little England: lolz
[21:00:07] Ryan Ford: I've thought falco was the best since like 2006. I didn't even main fox back then
[21:00:24] Umbreon: i thought falco was the best after 2007 or so
[21:00:25] Pink Reaper: not maining Fox is a good way to get ***** even harder by Falco though lol
[21:00:28] Umbreon: so you beat me ryan
[21:00:33] Little England: welp I'm def the only one here who thinks Fox>Falco
[21:00:48] Pink Reaper: I still think Fox is a better character, just not maintainable LE
[21:00:49] Strong Bad: I thought falco was the best when I realized that every time he shorthopped he controls a box of space relatively equal to the horizontal length of the stage.
[21:00:51] Joe Fortman: Based on weighted match-ups, isnt fox better?
[21:01:03] Joe Fortman: i mean, falco has many more "evenish" matchups than fox
[21:01:03] Umbreon: i think fox is worse because his playstyle is too limiting
[21:01:17] Strong Bad: having evenish MUs isn't bad.
[21:01:18] Umbreon: no one has "even" matches with falco lol
[21:01:21] Umbreon: laser is too stupid
[21:01:29] Pink Reaper: Falco beats Falco 70/30
[21:01:30] Umbreon: stage control everywhere forever = dumb
[21:01:33] Strong Bad: fox loses to falco though, idgaf if he 90-10's everyone else.
[21:01:40] Joe Fortman: umbreon: fox, marth, puff, peach, sheik disagree
[21:01:51] Ryan Ford: Depends who you ask fly
[21:01:59] Jeremy Westfahl: IIRC, based on some weighted match-up chart I made for the top 11 characters a few years ago, Fox came out on top, but that doesn't mean anything for a number of resaons
[21:02:03] Pink Reaper: falco beats Sheik
[21:02:14] Ryan Ford: I don't see how fox is even/wins vs marth for example
[21:02:18] Strong Bad: yeah those are close to even MUs where it's between 50-50 and 55-45 falco favor sveet
[21:02:29] Umbreon: the modern falcos tend to **** all of those except peach and puff, and puff sidesteps the laser control and peach is armada and basically only armada does well against the good falcos
[21:02:30] Little England: if Marth beats Fox
[21:02:39] Little England: thats more proof that Fox>Marth>Falco lol
[21:02:43] Joe Fortman: yes strongbad, but fox has like 2 even match-ups and wins the rest (marth and falco)
[21:02:50] Jeremy Westfahl: I'm confused why I'm being referenced here
[21:02:59] Strong Bad: that's only if you assume that fox vs falco is an even MU
[21:03:11] Roustane Benzeguir: LE but you based that on you think that fox > Falco
[21:03:24] Little England: I think Fox vs Falco is even
[21:03:25] Umbreon: fox vs falco is pretty even for the most part, falco is just doing much better in tournaments overall vs a varied cast
[21:03:33] Little England: but fox is a better character
[21:03:39] Umbreon: results say otherwise
[21:03:42] Pink Reaper: I actually think Fox has a slight advantage in the head to head >_>
[21:03:47] Little England: what umbreon said
[21:03:49] Roustane Benzeguir: fox is better played perfectly
[21:03:52] Joe Fortman: results are skewed by players
[21:03:54] Roustane Benzeguir: but we cant measure that
[21:04:05] Ryan Ford: How LE? If of loses 2, and falco loses 1? Or was it 0?
[21:04:07] Strong Bad: anyway we're only gonna go in circles if we try to dicsuss fox vs falco (in MU or tier list)
[21:04:11] Ryan Ford: If fox*
[21:04:15] Strong Bad: lets just let the averaged votes decide that
[21:04:20] Umbreon: results have been skewed in favor of falco and against fox since 2005, how long is it a skew and not a fact?
[21:04:29] Joe Fortman: umbreon i disagree completely
[21:04:30] Strong Bad: brb
[21:04:46] Umbreon: you can only deny reality for so long, even mango does better as falco over fox
[21:04:55] Joe Fortman: Even when mango and PP were winning everything, the character ranking list had fox at almost 3 times the amount of points falco and puff had
[21:05:05] Little England: I think Falco loses to Marth ICs and if Fox loses to Marth it would make sense that Fox>Marth>Falco
[21:05:07] Umbreon: which ranking list?
[21:05:18] Joe Fortman: character ranking list
[21:05:23] Umbreon: show me?
[21:05:41] Umbreon: please don't use the super flawed player data base
[21:05:55] Strong Bad: there is no accurate character ranking list in existence
[21:05:59] Little England: Can I invite CunningKitsune
[21:06:05] Umbreon: sure, CK is cool
[21:06:07] Joe Fortman: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771
[21:06:09] Little England: he knows a thing or 2
[21:06:38] Strong Bad: lol DK 17th
[21:06:56] Joe Fortman: Jason i wish you would have brought him in earlier
[21:06:59] Joe Fortman: we are almost done now
[21:07:24] Roustane Benzeguir: whats left?
[21:07:29] Pink Reaper: Bottom tier
[21:07:29] Umbreon: ahh i've seen this before, tony stopped doing these because they rank usage more than quantitative output
[21:07:32] Little England: he wasn't online
[21:07:36] Little England: =/
[21:07:38] Roustane Benzeguir: Umm
[21:07:41] Umbreon: iirc the BBR now does winnings in $ divided by representation
[21:07:46] Pink Reaper: G&W
Ness
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
yoshi
[21:07:58] Roustane Benzeguir: we havent even touched Roy, Link and YL lol
[21:08:00] Umbreon: although it does suggest with data that fox is better than falco, so i'll buy it
[21:08:13] Roustane Benzeguir: DK too
[21:08:30] Pink Reaper: DK > YL > Link > Roy
[21:08:31] Joe Fortman: umbreon, its basically the same thing since the points = placing * pot
[21:08:39] Umbreon: yes i understand that
[21:08:46] Umbreon: i'm not arguing with you
[21:08:57] Joe Fortman: my bad didnt see ur 2nd to last post
[21:09:02] Roustane Benzeguir: DK > Link > YL > Roy
[21:09:17] Strong Bad: DK > YL > Link > Zelda > G&W > M2 > Roy
[21:09:22] Little England: I think DK is awful lol
[21:09:29] Umbreon: the hard part is deciding how many of those points are quantified by our super ambiguous "top level of play" qualifier
[21:09:38] Roustane Benzeguir: DK isnt represented at all, so it really sucks lol but i know how he is in general
[21:09:48] Umbreon: DK is really awful, but probably still better than link and zelda lol
[21:09:55] Roustane Benzeguir: i play pkm a lot who is amazing at various matchup at the very least
[21:10:00] Pink Reaper: DK Vs Roy on FD is 100/0 in DKs favor
[21:10:00] Strong Bad: DK sucks
[21:10:01] Pink Reaper: that's all that matters
[21:10:08] Strong Bad: that's a fact
[21:10:14] Strong Bad: the problem is, these other chars are even worse
[21:10:20] Umbreon: i'm pretty sure the worst match in the game is ICs vs roy on FD
[21:10:28] Pink Reaper: 110/-10
[21:10:36] Umbreon: i can't seem to win that one
[21:10:40] Ryan Ford: ICs v pichu on FD is worse
[21:10:50] Pink Reaper: Pichu is in smash?
[21:10:54] Strong Bad: pichu?
[21:10:55] Umbreon: whats a pichu
[21:10:56] Strong Bad: what's a pichu
[21:10:56] Jeremy Westfahl: Somebody counterpicked me with Roy a while ago. He killed Nana kind of quickly, but it didn't matter since I just CGed him to death with Popo the rest of the stocks
[21:11:03] Jeremy Westfahl: because that is something Popo can do to Roy apparentl
[21:11:05] Jeremy Westfahl: *y
[21:11:06] Umbreon: yeah chu CGs me to deal with sopo
[21:11:08] Roustane Benzeguir: I think Zelda > Roy though > G&W
[21:11:16] Umbreon: i usually kill him with upthrow @ 220
[21:11:25] Little England: I think Roy is bottom 5 lol
[21:11:30] Roustane Benzeguir: no way
[21:11:32] Strong Bad: sopo can also CG yoshi, yet another reason yoshi's awful
[21:11:32] Umbreon: nah roy isn't that bad
[21:11:43] Umbreon: roy still has a dumb DD
[21:11:44] Little England: LOL
[21:11:57] Pink Reaper: I maintained for a long time that Roy was one of the bottom 3 characters
[21:12:09] Pink Reaper: I still do, but im voting against that right now because it doesnt really matter
[21:12:17] Little England: lhe's just so easy to exploit
[21:12:26] Strong Bad: roy's 5th worst on my list
[21:12:31] Little England: ^same
[21:12:38] Umbreon: as long as roy can press left and right, he'll still shut down any character that loses solely to dashdance, and there's a good number of them
[21:12:47] Strong Bad: i can't think of another character that's worse than him
[21:12:49] Little England: oh wait no he's at 4
[21:12:51] Strong Bad: than ness/bowser/pichu/lkirby
[21:12:53] Little England: cause I got that bias
[21:12:55] Pink Reaper: Roy can Dash dance into hitting with a paper fan
[21:12:59] Umbreon: no
[21:13:00] Pink Reaper: which is like 4%
[21:13:00] Umbreon: grab
[21:13:02] Strong Bad: dd into grab into nothing
[21:13:02] Pink Reaper: oh
[21:13:04] Pink Reaper: i play kirby
[21:13:04] Jeremy Westfahl: He can at least grab
[21:13:04] Umbreon: grab = position
[21:13:07] Umbreon: he can work with that
[21:13:08] Pink Reaper: I've never been grabbed by roy
[21:13:11] Pink Reaper: what's it like?
[21:13:16] Little England: LOL
[21:13:16] Jeremy Westfahl: Grabs can also lead to tech-chased which can lead to actual damage
[21:13:19] Jeremy Westfahl: *chases
[21:13:20] Umbreon: roy can dash attack cancel grab and grab kirbys crouch
[21:13:25] Umbreon: it's not so bad
[21:13:29] Roustane Benzeguir: Zelda > Roy> g&w > M2 > Yoshi
[21:13:30] Pink Reaper: Kirby's Dtilt > Roy
[21:13:31] Strong Bad: dash attack cancel grab is so worthless with roy
[21:13:47] Umbreon: no it's not, it grabs kirby;s crouch so he doesn't lose to only dtilt
[21:13:52] Strong Bad: how on earth do you think roy is better than G&W or M2
[21:14:00] Strong Bad: you can just dash grab instead <_<
[21:14:02] Umbreon: roy is definitely better than GAW, mewtwo maybe maybe not
[21:14:05] Pink Reaper: Kirby's Dtilit is longer than Roy's grab box
[21:14:07] Strong Bad: barely any difference
[21:14:08] Little England: I think Ness>Roy too. (bias)
[21:14:10] Pink Reaper: and Boost grabbing is awful
[21:14:19] Roustane Benzeguir: Roy has decent matchups vs spacies
[21:14:22] Strong Bad: boost grab only with sheik, and doc for lulz
[21:14:24] Umbreon: roy is also definitely better than ness, ness is really worthlesss
[21:14:32] Roustane Benzeguir: which is the most popular character chosen
[21:14:38] Little England: I think Roy is more worthless XD
[21:14:39] david macdonald: Ness is atrocious
[21:14:40] Pink Reaper: Roy has nothing on Falco lol
[21:14:45] Umbreon: ness is probably bottom 5
[21:14:45] Strong Bad: you're just kind of wrong if you think roy does decently against fox or falco.
[21:14:47] Strong Bad: sorry
[21:14:49] david macdonald: Ness is worse than Roy
[21:14:53] Roustane Benzeguir: he does
[21:14:54] Umbreon: nothing under B tier has anything on falco
[21:14:59] Strong Bad: especially if we're assuming an fd bannable at all times stagelist
[21:15:06] Strong Bad: pick roy -> lose
[21:15:11] Strong Bad: is what happens
[21:15:16] Umbreon: yeah
[21:15:21] Pink Reaper: Pick Roy -> Still better than Yoshi
[21:15:22] Little England: This is largly based on theorycrafting with mofo so idgaf really lol
[21:15:22] Umbreon: definitely
[21:15:36] Umbreon: i think roy and yoshi are close, real talk
[21:15:41] david macdonald: Ness has no way to hit you
[21:15:46] Strong Bad: yoshi is > roy on my list if only because roy is so bad
[21:15:51] Umbreon: ness is just horrible awful bad
[21:15:52] david macdonald: Once you come to terms with this, he's really bad
[21:15:57] Pink Reaper: Ness has some useable OoS options >_>
[21:15:57] david macdonald: Oh, really?
[21:16:02] Umbreon: WD back?
[21:16:02] david macdonald: Can you tell me them?
[21:16:02] Pink Reaper: DJC Nair lol
[21:16:03] Pink Reaper: the only one
[21:16:07] Umbreon: WD back is good KK
[21:16:13] Strong Bad: djc nair hits like frame 10
[21:16:14] david macdonald: I know WD back is good
[21:16:19] Umbreon: it's an option? lol
[21:16:19] Strong Bad: that's ****
[21:16:22] Strong Bad: and has no range
[21:16:25] david macdonald: DJC nair sucks and doesn't beat anything
[21:16:26] Strong Bad: because you're ****ing ness
[21:16:34] Jeremy Westfahl: WD back and non-DJCed nair are the things I'd think would be decent
[21:16:45] Strong Bad: yea, normal nair is better than djc nair
[21:16:48] Joe Fortman: this discussion is kinda silly now since nobody plays any of these characters in tournament
[21:16:55] Roustane Benzeguir: yep lol
[21:16:55] Umbreon: i never block with ness ever, i only do movement into things that can be crouchgrabbed and i hope my opponent never does it
[21:16:56] Ryan Ford: Pichu has more options oos than ness
[21:17:03] Roustane Benzeguir: LOL
[21:17:03] Little England: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4skdaYDW4D8
[21:17:05] Little England: lies sveet
[21:17:06] Little England: lol
[21:17:16] Umbreon: i used to play ness in tournament >_>
[21:17:21] Strong Bad: this aint a doubles tier list
[21:17:26] Strong Bad: get that vid outta here
[21:17:26] Little England: lol its a joke
[21:17:35] Joe Fortman: (clap)
[21:17:35] Pink Reaper: Watty vs Drephen
[21:17:38] Roustane Benzeguir: i used to play Roy and Link in low tier tourneys, they were quite good
[21:17:52] Strong Bad: link is quite good in low tier tourneys
[21:17:58] Pink Reaper: Link is ***
[21:18:03] david macdonald: Link is a boss except he sucks
[21:18:03] Pink Reaper: Y.Link is where it's at
[21:18:06] Pink Reaper: 10/0's everyone
[21:18:09] Pink Reaper: just ask Laijin
[21:18:11] Joe Fortman: link is great in PM
[21:18:12] Strong Bad: although i think low tier tourneys are particularly irrelevant in a tier list discussion
[21:18:23] Roustane Benzeguir: aww
[21:18:33] Umbreon: link is probably about as good as mario, and better than zelda/roy
[21:18:33] Roustane Benzeguir: i tried
[21:18:33] Roustane Benzeguir: ya probably
[21:18:39] Pink Reaper: Im hungry, someone mow me a sandwich
[21:18:44] Umbreon: mowwwww
[21:18:50] Ryan Ford: That's why laijin quit YO for sheik right?
[21:19:00] Ryan Ford: YL*
[21:19:03] Jeremy Westfahl: Young Old
[21:19:09] Roustane Benzeguir: whats left?
[21:19:10] Joe Fortman: Ok guys. I'm calling it now
[21:19:10] Strong Bad: lol Young Old
[21:19:20] Strong Bad: what's left is probably just pm sveet your lists
[21:19:23] Pink Reaper: should we just do Votes in the MBR?
[21:19:24] Joe Fortman: You are all invited to vote on the tier list
[21:19:24] Umbreon: but we didn't fight for 4 hours about jigglypuff
[21:19:36] Joe Fortman: To vote, PM me your list
[21:19:43] Ryan Ford: The chat has been done for me for a while
[21:19:48] Roustane Benzeguir: for a while?
[21:19:49] Joe Fortman: deadline is friday
[21:19:51] Pink Reaper: i posted mine publicly so i could remember the order >_>
[21:20:04] Umbreon: wait
[21:20:07] Umbreon: is sheik S tier or A tier
[21:20:09] Umbreon: >_>
[21:20:17] Ryan Ford: We don't have to Pm it again right?
[21:20:18] Umbreon: she has S in her name so idk
[21:20:20] Pink Reaper: XXX tier
[21:20:22] Joe Fortman: i figured id just flip a coin umbreon
[21:20:30] Strong Bad: tiers should be separated by the discrepancy in points after averaging out lists
[21:20:34] Joe Fortman: ^
[21:20:39] Umbreon: ...fineeeeee
[21:20:43] Umbreon: look at math over here
[21:20:43] Strong Bad: i do think that sheik will end up a tier though
[21:20:48] Ryan Ford: Uh oh
[21:20:52] Pink Reaper: so
[21:20:55] Pink Reaper: that pokemon tier list
[21:20:55] Joe Fortman: GUYS
[21:20:56] Strong Bad: because peopel put puff over sheik, and no one puts falco/fox at anything worse than 2nd
[21:20:58] Joe Fortman: SHh
[21:20:59] Umbreon: we killed kevin, he's dead
[21:21:05] Joe Fortman: PM me your vote with no tier separation
[21:21:10] Strong Bad: kkk
[21:21:19] Joe Fortman: i will compile and we can talk about division breifly later
[21:21:21] Pink Reaper: SS Tier: Breloom
[21:21:28] Joe Fortman: i think itll be fairly clear, but just in case
[21:21:52] Umbreon: if fox falco puff are S tier, can we rename it Frame 1 Down Bs are Bull**** Tier?
[21:22:00] Joe Fortman: Yes haha[/collapse]