• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Thing is, those techniques are nothing game breaking or game changing, good players have already taken care of those options. =) Even if you can consistently do it, there are counter-attacks you can do... or you can just predict that they are trying to trap you above the platform. It's not that hard. You have to be able to think constantly while being aware of multiple options ALL THE TIME.
If you don't think shield dropping or parrying changes the game, then idk what to tell you. I can't speak for parrying since I don't play Yoshi, but shield dropping has hardly even been scratched past the surface by 99.9% of even above average players. When I've seen the handful of players that do utilize it, their opponents are absolutely clueless about how to deal with it properly. The shield dropping metagame is basically equivalent to the spacing metagame before WDing.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Ever since Brawl (****ing piece of ****) came out, there hasn't been enough time to run a low tier tourney. It used to be Singles & Doubles & Low Tiers, now it's Singles & Doubles and Brawl singles & doubles
Melee-only tourneys should run it though.
there used to be crew tourneys as well back in the day

Edit: @ umbreon: *** stone edge. I actually use the move though. I just hate on the move cuz it costs battles for no reason sometimes. It is an essential move though for some Pokemon.

I had a +4/+4 gyarados once in gen 4, and the opponent sent in his own after I killed his empoleon (he was letting me set it up for some reason). I use stone edge and miss. Then he uses his own SE and I die in one hit x_x. Then I send my aerodactyl in glyscor and try to SE again....miss. Then he crit a waterfall and I died. But yeah, since then I've always been like *** SE.

I also missed 2 Draco meteors in a row a few days ago

:phone:
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
If you don't think shield dropping or parrying changes the game, then idk what to tell you. I can't speak for parrying since I don't play Yoshi, but shield dropping has hardly even been scratched past the surface by 99.9% of even above average players. When I've seen the handful of players that do utilize it, their opponents are absolutely clueless about how to deal with it properly. The shield dropping metagame is basically equivalent to the spacing metagame before WDing.
Ya to me it doesn't change the game that much, I only need to see it once before I can come up with ways to deal with it. But ya I guess for the avg player it's much different

Also the easy way I see this has is.. if someone is shielding or light shielding on a platform it's likely a trap to either make you lose positioning or straight up attack you OOS by doing a falling aerial which is EXTREMELY fast. So to counter this, it's either you have to wait it out and maintain the center/bottom position.. or go for a shield stab. Going to him for a grab can be done too but it's a little riskier this one.

You have to realise that Kage's writing is entirely comprised of generic warrior-esque cliches. He throws it at a topic and hopes someone interprets something relevant and profound.
:phone:
Well if you can't even understand something like that then you must be even worse than the avg player. Oh and **** you.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I also missed 2 Draco meteors in a row a few days ago
my record so far is one random match in GSC, I had Blissey and my opponent has Electrode using Thunder. Out of 16 Thunder uses, all 16 hit, the first one paralyzed and 10 of them crit.

I missed 4 Blizzard in a row a few days ago in a GBC cable battle @ RBY's 90 acc on blizzard. sad forever.
 

Jockmaster

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
872
Location
Athens, GA
Try having your Metagross be frozen for ~20 turns while it slowly gets Headbutt-ed to death by a Dewgong. Lost my faith in Pokemon that day.
 

Jockmaster

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
872
Location
Athens, GA
Well im actually pretty sure my situation was in sapphire in the battle tower (hurr i know no stone edge), but in all my days playing in the Pokemon meta I have NEVER heard of a turn limit for freezing. I always thought it was simply a 20% chance of thaw every turn (barring any Fire moves being used). But now we are derailing the **** out of this thread
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I posted this in the MBR, but I'll put it here as well, as I feel the public could have some good ideas pertaining to my post-

I think we should scrap this tier list project:

- We have no meaningful changes from the prior "outdated" list.

- There's a surprising lack of research data backing our votes.

- Only the stage list and maybe extreme outlier players have any real impact on the performance of the characters.

- Our stage list, and by extension the rule set are outdated anyway.

- We should really be above this Fox vs Falco **** by now.

Here's what I propose that we do:

1. Stop/Cancel this project entirely.

2. Revise the stage list. Include regional TOs for the tournament making process, and ask them how we should update our 2009-2010 rule set.

3. If we do another tier list, it's pretty apparent that nothing is going to change. We should take this opportunity to use a better method than guesswork and voting. I would like to propose that we move to a more meaningful shift to the 3 tiers based on viability idea. That is, our tiers would be Viable, Semi-Viable, and Non-Viable.
 

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
- We should really be above this Fox vs Falco **** by now.
why? it's still pretty controversial to claim that fox is the best character. there's no clear-cut winner between the two.

also, i think that there should be a separate "results-based tier list" based entirely on statistical data from ssbpd

edit: post #6969, come at me bros
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I posted this in the MBR, but I'll put it here as well, as I feel the public could have some good ideas pertaining to my post-

I think we should scrap this tier list project:

- We have no meaningful changes from the prior "outdated" list.

- There's a surprising lack of research data backing our votes.

- Only the stage list and maybe extreme outlier players have any real impact on the performance of the characters.

- Our stage list, and by extension the rule set are outdated anyway.

- We should really be above this Fox vs Falco **** by now.

Here's what I propose that we do:

1. Stop/Cancel this project entirely.

2. Revise the stage list. Include regional TOs for the tournament making process, and ask them how we should update our 2009-2010 rule set.

3. If we do another tier list, it's pretty apparent that nothing is going to change. We should take this opportunity to use a better method than guesswork and voting. I would like to propose that we move to a more meaningful shift to the 3 tiers based on viability idea. That is, our tiers would be Viable, Semi-Viable, and Non-Viable.
I've insisted on that while we were doing the 2010 Tier List and like every single person in the mbr was against it :'(

:phone:

Edit: statistic Tier list would be cool
Only for (semi) viable tho
Edit2: MU chart + MU based Tier list for viable would be ****
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
why? it's still pretty controversial to claim that fox is the best character. there's no clear-cut winner between the two.
they're pretty obviously equal in terms of competitive viability and they're equal in the tier list vote, whether you look at the 2010 vote or the prospective vote from this week. Why does one have to be "better"? What does that even mean when they're seen as equal and perform near equally?

there's no clear-cut winner, and yet we're supposed to pick one? it almost makes us the clear-cut losers for wasting our time on it.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Umbreon, I am fully in support of multiple character list types. Once the SSBPD is back to 100% I plan to work on a CRL feature foxlisk can add to the site. I would also love it if the match-up chart started back up. The tier list itself is an opinion based list. I don't think its the end-all list that everyone should look to, i put much more stock in objective lists, but that doesn't mean it is useless.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The tier list itself is an opinion based list. I don't think its the end-all list that everyone should look to, i put much more stock in objective lists, but that doesn't mean it is useless.
Even under my cleaner definition, the tier list is about as useful as our opinions. What are the opinions of MBR members really worth?

edit: this is a real question.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
I would like to propose that we move to a more meaningful shift to the 3 tiers based on viability idea. That is, our tiers would be Viable, Semi-Viable, and Non-Viable.
And change all matchups to Even, slight ad/disavantage, or 90-10.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
And change all matchups to Even, slight ad/disavantage, or 90-10.
No, that's completely wrong. It should be:

Even
Slight advantage
Slight disadvantage
Muahahahahahaha! You're playing that character!? You have no chance!
What kind of idiot are you, using that character against him? You'd be better off using Kirby. Oh wait, you are using Kirby.
 

Froggy

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,448
3DS FC
3110-7430-0100
they're pretty obviously equal in terms of competitive viability and they're equal in the tier list vote, whether you look at the 2010 vote or the prospective vote from this week. Why does one have to be "better"? What does that even mean when they're seen as equal and perform near equally?

there's no clear-cut winner, and yet we're supposed to pick one? it almost makes us the clear-cut losers for wasting our time on it.
A tier-list is kinda stupid if it's not going to be thorough enough to break down each character's placement. Ties simply aren't good enough.

And I stand by earlier point that the tier list has no weight if it's only voted on by 12 members.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I think Umbreon is pretty spot on. There are viables, semi viables, and non viables. Beyond that, everything else is kinda wild speculation/guesswork/opinionated.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
A tier-list is kinda stupid if it's not going to be thorough enough to break down each character's placement. Ties simply aren't good enough.
If we specified each character placement in a specific manner, we'd have 26 tiers. Placing multiple characters in a tier suggests that they are even. We really place too much weight on characters being better than each other within a tier, which makes no sense.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I've always thought characters within a tier should be treated as equal. I think it's a much more modest approach to our knowledge of the game. I also think a matchup chart would be much more useful anyways. Get the top 10-15 most knowledgeable mains of each character and have them fill in matchup charts, but make it so they are reluctant to fill in matchup spots that they aren't extremely experienced in. Average them all together. Take that chart and post it in the MBR, and allow open discussion for people who main other characters to give their input. If there is no consensus between a matchup being +1 or 0, do a vote.
 

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
And change all matchups to Even, slight ad/disavantage, or 90-10.
This is why you and I should be allowed in the MBR, we would streamline that ****. Most efficient and well run the Melee scene would ever be
 

Froggy

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,448
3DS FC
3110-7430-0100
If we specified each character placement in a specific manner, we'd have 26 tiers. Placing multiple characters in a tier suggests that they are even. We really place too much weight on characters being better than each other within a tier, which makes no sense.
Placing multiple characters within a tier does not suggest they are even, it suggests that they are of comparable viability, more specifically it suggests that they are of closer viability than either groups above or beneath them. To go from their to say that they should all be treated as equal is a large stretch.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Saying that Falcon and Falco are even in viability sounds sort of odd to me, now that I think about it.

*sigh* And it was such a good idea, too.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Placing multiple characters within a tier does not suggest they are even, it suggests that they are of comparable viability, more specifically it suggests that they are of closer viability than either groups above or beneath them. To go from their to say that they should all be treated as equal is a large stretch.
comparable viability is suggesting that they are even for all practical purposes, it's the same thing. we are ranking them by relative goodness for a tournament setting.

i would put falcon in semi-viable personally, so falco and falcon would not be in the same tier.
 

Seartu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Messages
215
Location
San Francisco
comparable viability is suggesting that they are even for all practical purposes, it's the same thing. we are ranking them by relative goodness for a tournament setting.

i would put falcon in semi-viable personally, so falco and falcon would not be in the same tier.
I have an honest question about this. Are you referring to "a tournament setting" meaning a national tournament setting? I am by no means an expert and haven't been involved in the community very long but at a local and regional level falcon seems pretty viable to me.

I understand that there are outliers for several characters who are capable of placing well at large tournaments, eg axe. But falcon players have proven him to be very viable at a regional level (silent spectre, darkrain, s2j) and hax has provided wildly consistent (I like the way that sounds even if it's an oxymoron) results at the national level.

Based on this I don't understand how he could be considered semi-viable in a tournament setting. That is unless you are limiting it to strictly national tournaments which seems like a stretch considering nationals make up such a small portion of the melee tournament experience.

:phone:
 

Seartu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2012
Messages
215
Location
San Francisco
Tier lists are based on top level play.
But players like s2j and ss (sorry I'm from California) have competed very respectably and consistently in regions where top level play is the norm.

If it was merely projecting results at the highest level peach has done as much as any character thanks to armada.

The simplicity of that response was a little insulting grim. You provided no information that is not readily available in the OP.

:phone:
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
I was responding to these parts of your post:

I am by no means an expert and haven't been involved in the community very long but at a local and regional level falcon seems pretty viable to me.

That is unless you are limiting it to strictly national tournaments which seems like a stretch considering nationals make up such a small portion of the melee tournament experience.
I don't really know what else you want me to say.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I have an honest question about this. Are you referring to "a tournament setting" meaning a national tournament setting? I am by no means an expert and haven't been involved in the community very long but at a local and regional level falcon seems pretty viable to me.

I understand that there are outliers for several characters who are capable of placing well at large tournaments, eg axe. But falcon players have proven him to be very viable at a regional level (silent spectre, darkrain, s2j) and hax has provided wildly consistent (I like the way that sounds even if it's an oxymoron) results at the national level.

Based on this I don't understand how he could be considered semi-viable in a tournament setting. That is unless you are limiting it to strictly national tournaments which seems like a stretch considering nationals make up such a small portion of the melee tournament experience.
We assume top level play. While I do agree that s2j and SS among others are incredibly talented, I think the character hits a glass ceiling of sorts at nationals, and it's rare to see a falcon in say the top 4.

My viable tier right now in my head has Fox Falco Sheik Peach Marth and Jigglypuff.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I'd put Falcon and IC's in viable
Ganon, Samus, Doc, Mario, Luigi, Pika in semi-viable (maybe others too w/e)

Edit: also MBR could vote viable tier, then we'd made a ranking of them based on Tournament Results (ssbpd), then MBR is voting on Match ups between viable chara (should be possible since there would only be like ten) and THEN we'd make a Ranking based on Match ups and considering how much each Match up is worth by using the ranking based on Tournament Results mentioned above

:phone:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'd put Falcon and IC's in viable
Ganon, Samus, Doc, Mario, Luigi, Pika in semi-viable (maybe others too w/e)

Edit: also MBR could vote viable tier, then we'd made a ranking of them based on Tournament Results (ssbpd), then MBR is voting on Match ups between viable chara (should be possible since there would only be like ten) and THEN we'd make a Ranking based on Match ups and considering how much each Match up is worth by using the ranking based on Tournament Results mentioned above
I think you're the only european on this site that i like.
 
Top Bottom