Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Froggy]

It also probably wouldnt work. We'd need to weigh certain match-ups more heavily, as having better high tier match-ups is far more meaningful than having good low tier match-ups. But that would require us to ALREADY have a tier implemented.

Then we'd just have to do it twice. First based it on the match-up chart, and then recalculate the values based on the resulting tier-list.

I also ask if we need to weigh the matchups at all. People need to remember that a character is only ''better'' than another character if they have better matchups. Therefore what's the point in weighing certain matchups more than others? You're giving greater weight to matchups from the higher tier characters when they are only higher tier characters because of their matchups in the first place. It's a circular argument.

comparable viability is suggesting that they are even for all practical purposes, it's the same thing. we are ranking them by relative goodness for a tournament setting. Not breaking the ties in groups is a terrible and just lazy idea.

i would put falcon in semi-viable personally, so falco and falcon would not be in the same tier.

Did you read what I wrote? Saying they are of comparable viability is not the same as saying they are even for all practical purposes. Comparable and even are hardly synonyms. Armada and Mew2king are of comparable skills levels yet Armada is definitely the better player. You keep trying to simplify all this too much.

 

[Tero.]

The Tier List is representing more than just which character has the best MUs.
Its more like a combination of character potential, MUs and results/the likelihood to win or place good at tournaments.

100:0 MUs against 5 chars doesn't mean anything if you'll never get to play them in tournament.
Thinking of that character spread could also integrated in a ranking (thx ssbpd)

The perfect ranking would consider:
- character potential (best moves, speed, priority, damage output, recovery, etc.)
- Match Ups
- character spread to weight/evaluate those MUs
- tournament results
(- Player votes)

-

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

The Tier List is representing more than just which character has the best MUs.
Its more like a combination of character potential, MUs and results/the likelihood to win or place good at tournaments.

Place well*

sorry, I had to

 

[Stevo]

I still like my 4 tiers

Viable Tier (example: Falco)

Semi-Viable Tier (example: Ganon)

Could be Tournament Viable with more representation and under specific circumstances Tier (example: Young Link for fighting jiggs)

non-viable (example: Bowser)

 

[Divinokage]

Bowser is not viable and yet he won a tourney in NY recently. lol. Funny times.

 

[Stevo]

With the warrior spirit, anything is possible.

in the end, you can call the tiers whatever you want I guess.

Mostly non-viable unless your opponent does not really know the matchup, or is your younger brother tier doesn't have the same ring to it

 

[Deleted member]

Did you read what I wrote? Saying they are of comparable viability is not the same as saying they are even for all practical purposes. Comparable and even are hardly synonyms. Armada and Mew2king are of comparable skills levels yet Armada is definitely the better player. You keep trying to simplify all this too much.

If armada is clearly the better player, then they are not comparable. It's not simplification, it's the english language. I can't change what the words mean.

Synonyms for comparable:

a match for, as good as, commensurate, equal, equivalent, in a class with, on a par, proportionate, tantamount

Antonyms for comparable:

different, dissimilar, incommensurable, incomparable, unequal

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-synonyms/comparable

 

[JPOBS]

Falcon has been performing well enough, long enough, that to conside him only "semi-viable" is silly imo. From the ancient days when Isai was probably top 3 in the world with falcon, to Darkrain, and now to S2j and Hax consistently going top 5-15, to call falcon "semi viable" is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes, he places just as well as Fox at international tournaments.

We assume top level play. While I do agree that s2j and SS among others are incredibly talented, I think the character hits a glass ceiling of sorts at nationals, and it's rare to see a falcon in say the top 4.

That's hardly fair. The top 4 is usually clogged by the same 4 players (hbox, armada, mango, PP). And the falcon players usually place JUST outside those 4 at 5th and 7h places. It's unfair to say falcon in only "semi viable" because he never beats the Big 4. By that same logic, Sheik should only be "semi viable" as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon has been performing well enough, long enough, that to conside him only "semi-viable" is silly imo. From the ancient days when Isai was probably top 3 in the world with falcon, to Darkrain, and now to S2j and Hax consistently going top 5-15, to call falcon "semi viable" is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes, he places just as well as Fox at international tournaments.
That's hardly fair. The top 4 is usually clogged by the same 4 players (hbox, armada, mango, PP). And the falcon players usually place JUST outside those 4 at 5th and 7h places. It's unfair to say falcon in only "semi viable" because he never beats the Big 4. By that same logic, Sheik should only be "semi viable" as well.

In the MBR, I proposed that we start out results-based research on top 8 placements for 80+ attendance tournaments, effectively answering your concern, which I agree with. It's an arbitrary threshold, but it's at least a starting point.

 

[Bones0]

Results are worthless. Go hard in the theory bros or go home.

 

[Strong Badam]

Theory bros is worthless

Results are more useful, but I still find fairly important inherent flaws with them.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Everything is useless. Let's give up and go home.

 

[Divinokage]

Humans sucks, they cant agree with anything.

 

[Kimimaru]

Mostly non-viable unless your opponent does not really know the matchup

A player knowing a particular matchup is unrelated to the viability of a character.

 

[Geenareeno]

The perfect ranking would consider:
- character potential (best moves, speed, priority, damage output, recovery, etc.)
- Match Ups
- character spread to weight/evaluate those MUs
- tournament results
(- Player votes)

This guy's got it.

 

[Bones0]

A player knowing a particular matchup is unrelated to the viability of a character.

You're ********. If no one at the tournament knows the Bowser matchup, then Bowser becomes a viable character choice to win with.

 

[Boat Mode]

I can't put anyone above Doc in the grouping of semiviable.

The top 8 have all shown viability to win a national.

Our top 5 players have shown us repeatedly over the last 2 years that they are in a skill level above the rest. But, we've seen solid representation from the other characters in the top 8. Marth is proof of the fact that player skill is having more influence on character placement at the top.

 

[Kimimaru]

You're ********. If no one at the tournament knows the Bowser matchup, then Bowser becomes a viable character choice to win with.

Fair enough, but I was referring to a single player in a tournament.

 

[JPOBS]

Marth is proof of the fact that player skill is having more influence on character placement at the top.

Marth is semi viable at best. He rarely breaches top 15.

 

[KingofCereal]

Marth is semi viable at best. He rarely breaches top 15.

Again, and for the UMPTEEN MAZILLIONTH time its not based on results. With the right play Marth is still a great character. Way better than anyone below him. With the right play a Doc can do OK, but Marth would be expected to do better. And Sheik would be expected to do better than Marth. And Fox would be expected to do better than Sheik. It's expectations that count.

 

[VietGeek]

^ pretty sure that's just jpobs celebrating the old new marth main inside joke

don't worry

in 2030 it'll be that dolphin emulator adds interpolation frames that heavily disfavor marth's spacing game in outer space

obv

 

[Boat Mode]

Marth is semi viable at best. He rarely breaches top 15.

I had a really hard time not saying this lol

Marths are fake atm

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Again, and for the UMPTEEN MAZILLIONTH time its not based on results. With the right play Marth is still a great character. Way better than anyone below him. With the right play a Doc can do OK, but Marth would be expected to do better. And Sheik would be expected to do better than Marth. And Fox would be expected to do better than Sheik. It's expectations that count.

Or marth isn't as good as people once thought and he is now being exposed. (Peach at least equal to marth)

 

[Ripple]

Marth has too many even to losing match ups. Its at best a coin flip if he wins or not with characters above him, peach, falcon, and ICs

 

[VietGeek]

in the next tier list

marth should get his own tier

"where's ken?"

to better acclimate this radical approach

this tier should be placed right below peach's placement

that way we can all simultaneously recall ken's peach theory

obv

 

[john!]

oh ffs guys

stop using words that aren't quantitative (e.g. "top", "high", etc.) to describe the tiers

you will NEVER get agreement if you do that because words have different meanings to different people. language is subjective.

just keep it numerical like the current list. i don't want to have to read through 20 pages of people debating whether ganon is "viable" or not.

if you really think that the difference between "viable" and "semi-viable" characters is so huge that they should be two gigantic tiers, then that's fine. but don't call them that, because then you will have yoshi mains whining about how he is actually "viable" and falcon mains whining about how he actually isn't "viable"

i think one of the old brawl tier lists had three or four "mega-tiers" which were split into several "regular tiers" which contained a few characters each. maybe you could try that.

 

[Construct]

Marth mains just aren't as good as most other high level mains. The best counterpoint to this is how well IC players place relative to their small player pool (check SSBPD whenever that gets back up to see what I mean), they're just on average better players. There isn't an Armada or a Mango for Marth these days innovating for the character/showing everybody how relevant and powerful he actually is. Everyone's just copying what M2K and Ken did years ago.

From the nice vacuum of theory bros, Marth is one of the best characters in the game. He only has one losing matchup. We're all just bad.

 

[DerfMidWest]

mmm marth is a good character, but he has flaws.
also keep in mind, tier lists reflect the current metagame.
so you can't just say "marth would be sex if people used him"
People have found counters to the old marth bull**** that ken and m2k did, so outdated metagame is outdated.

 

[ShroudedOne]

in the next tier list

marth should get his own tier

"where's ken?"

to better acclimate this radical approach

this tier should be placed right below peach's placement

that way we can all simultaneously recall ken's peach theory

obv

Can you continue to post, please? For me? I'm enjoying these a lot.

 

[KingofCereal]

Just because Peach is better than Marth does not mean Marth is bad. Peach is a dirty **** that wrecks ****.

 

[Warhawk]

Marth has too many even to losing match ups. Its at best a coin flip if he wins or not with characters above him, peach, falcon, and ICs

Too many losing matchups? His Sheik matchup is the only one consistently seen as a losing matchup for him and having a bunch of even matchups with the top tiers isn't all that bad. Also you could argue that every character in the game has at least one losing matchup (Fox losing to Falco and Falco losing to Peach, though in all likelyhood they probably don't have losing matchups).

 

[Strong Badam]

falco doesn't lose

 

[Warhawk]

Pretty much

 

[ShroudedOne]

In my opinion, I see him losing to Fox, Peach, and Marth (out of high/top tier).

Without any bias on my part, I can say he probably only loses to Peach (if that, cause it's sort of a stretch).

 

[Warhawk]

Yea I can see him potentially losing to Fox and Marth, but I can also see them losing to him. Peach I don't really see as a winning matchup for Falco but I think its more likely even than Peach winning the matchup.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falco has even or winning MUs. No losing MUs.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Enh, I think fox/falco is pretty even, tbh. The only mu i could see falco losing is marth, and maaaybe peach.

 

[Geenareeno]

Fox and Marth are even. He probably loses to Peach but I think we need to see a few more PP Armada sets and maybe have other top peaches/falcos play. The fact that she can completely ignore a large part of Falco's neutral game/zoning/control is really big. And she combos him hard and chaingrabs him. And she edgeguards him really well.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Bowser is not viable and yet he won a tourney in NY recently. lol. Funny times.

Source. Now.

Spoiler

Smashboards needs better ":O" smilies...

 

[-ACE-]

My opinion: anyone who says peach beats falco is a r'tard.

Neither falco nor fox lose imo, aside from a 49/51 between the 2 of them