Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I am just trying to sat peach goes closer to even with sheik then falcon (referring to oliman's post) (also falcon is worst then marth imo)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I just ignore the minor 5 on MU numbers. To hard to really tell for certain how a match-up places out. There is way too many opinions between even and slight advantage that I just collapse 55 and 45 and call it an even. Stages, player knowledge, skilll, success of gambles, and mistake will usually outweigh any sort of minor advantage to me.

In this case, I found it odd that peach has a disadvantage against sheik and jiggs since I thought it was even. If the the only way jiggs can play the match-up on marth is by relying on baits to get stuff done since marth will outspace everything jiggs does, then this seems like an advantage to marth.

 

[Xyzz]

Jiggs vs Peach is even. Armada just likes to troll everyone and endure 2h Grand Finals of spamming bombs because that's the best way to enjoy melee.

 

[Twinkles]

Was that supposed to be sarcasm? If it was, it didn't really come out well on account of it being a typed response rather than a vocalization.

 

[Xyzz]

Just irony

 

[unknown522]

I still dont think sheik is that bad for peach, probably 55/45 just b/c of dthrow

65:35 IMO. She has solid combos on peach that most characters don't have. Sheik also doesn't get super combo ***** if you DI'd well

 

[Deleted member]

65:35 IMO. She has solid combos on sheik that most characters don't have. Sheik also doesn't get super combo ***** if you DI'd well

agreed. at least in NTSC, sheik is probably her worst match besides jigglypuff, i'm not sure really.

they can both do some really nasty things to each other for edge guards too.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So you guys think Sheik/Peach is 65:35 in Sheik's favor? I feel like I'm misreading, so I'm asking for clarification.

I found out recently that Sheik's edgeguard on Peach is absolutely stupid. If I had to give it an arbitrary rating, 60:40 would be mine.

 

[Wake]

I think I would agree with ShroudedOne's number. I think both Fox and Jiggs are worse.

I think from worst to best MUs for Peach:

Jiggs/Fox
Sheik
Marth (slight Marth)
Falcon
Falco (even or slight Peach)
ICs (in Peach's favor)

 

[Warhawk]

I think if Peach lost 35:65 to Sheik she'd probably be worse than Falcon.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So, serious question: does puff really deserve to be 3rd?
I feel like it should be sheik.
I mean, Puff does well against falcon and peach, and a lot of people say she goes even with falco, but she seems to get wrecked by everybody else in the top 7 (unless i'm forgeting somebody)
Imo, puff should be under marth, IF not lower than peach.
Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member]

So, serious question: does puff really deserve to be 3rd?
I feel like it should be sheik.
I mean, Puff does well against falcon and peach, and a lot of people say she goes even with falco, but she seems to get wrecked by everybody else in the top 7 (unless i'm forgeting somebody)
Imo, puff should be under marth, IF not lower than peach.
Thoughts?

she obv. doesn't get wrecked by any char, most tops tiers don't.

jigglypuff doesn't play by the same rules that the other characters have to play by. she doesn't need to worry about losing her options most of the time, doesn't really need to rack up damage to get a kill, and for the most part doesn't need to worry about combos, juggles, etc. that's pretty top tier IMO

 

[ShroudedOne]

Doesn't need to worry about losing her options? Doesn't have to worry about combos? Uh...I'm afraid I don't see those. Could you elaborate?

 

[Deleted member]

they're generalized statements but overall jigglypuff doesn't need to learn say how to DI out of a CG, wall teching, and lots of other skills that "normal" characters use.

like if jigglypuff is recovering in against the side of FD you can like ledge jump nair with sheik and stage spike the jigglypuff players every time because they're bad at super smash bros melee. the character just doesn't force you to learn a lot of defensive techniques. thus, they're not her problem.

KK tactics tried and true lol

edit: i think when jigglypuff players branch off to other chars this kinda goes away. but you can def tell the "I only play jigglypuff" people

 

[Mahone]

She has her own set of problems as well though...

I put her at 5th

 

[unknown522]

Lol I messed up with names.

The first line I put sheik's name instead of peach. But yeah I think sheik does better than fox in the MU. You get more rewards out of a hit. Solid punishes and combo starters/enders. Peach is easier to grab as sheik as well, and you will always get a combo off of a throw. She also can't randomly SDI/CC punish most of sheik's combo starters, like she can vs fox. Having more range than her is great too, while still being a fast character (omg, it's possible to approach her).

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i disagree, i believe sheik is pretty close to even for peach. one way of looking at it is that in pal amsah and armada iirc (dont want to put words in their mouths) believe the mu is 55:45 in peach's favor. 10 point swing makes sense b/c of dthrow but i cant see dthrow and a stronger upair being enough to swing the mu anymore then 10 points.

Also idk what u r talking about when u say peach can't cc most of sheiks combo starters. peach cc game is really strong vs sheik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You can approach Peach as Fox (kind of).

I can see why one would say Sheik is her hardest MU. The logic makes sense.

There also seems to be this myth about Peach not being able to be comboed...though I guess Fox is weaker at it than most. But when you can outmanuveur her really well (Fox is kind of good at running away), recover high every time and be safe, uthrow into second hit only uairs properly, edgeguard her properly (shines and ledgestalls to refresh invincibility to counter her upB out of float from below the stage), and hit drills so that they can't be SDI'd into waveshine upsmashes at kill percents (only one waveshine)...

I just think Sheik gets trapped by Peach a lot easier than Fox, and edgeguarded harder. Sure, Peach mitigates a good portion of his damage through SDI, but he doesn't suddenly become unable to kill her.

Sheik is, imo, second worst (she is certainly "easier" to use vs Peach than Fox).

 

[john!]

here's my opinion of peach's worst matchups (worst first):

puff (i am going to trust armada on this one, although i personally have a harder time with fox)
fox
marth
falcon
sheik
falco

 

[Deleted member]

here's my opinion of peach's worst matchups (worst first):

puff (i am going to trust armada on this one, although i personally have a harder time with fox)
fox
marth
falcon
sheik
falco

sheik under both marth and falcon? sounds like someone plays FD too much.

 

[john!]

sheik under both marth and falcon? sounds like someone plays FD too much.

LOL

you don't even know how right you are

 

[unknown522]

i disagree, i believe sheik is pretty close to even for peach. one way of looking at it is that in pal amsah and armada iirc (dont want to put words in their mouths) believe the mu is 55:45 in peach's favor. 10 point swing makes sense b/c of dthrow but i cant see dthrow and a stronger upair being enough to swing the mu anymore then 10 points.

Also idk what u r talking about when u say peach can't cc most of sheiks combo starters. peach cc game is really strong vs sheik.

cc punishe dude. If you don't know what that is, then go research

 

[knightpraetor]

dang just noted that unknown actually agrees with me and thinks marth has an advantage vs fox...never thought i'd hear a fox player suggest that fox could have disadvantaged matchups

 

[Divinokage]

Gotta remember top players think at least 3 steps ahead.. If someone tries to CC then you already trapped them in doing so, you can either space better to account for that or just not attack him and go for mixup grabs or some ****. Idk theres a lot of possibilities. And then he'll know you go for a mixup and counter-attack you.. but then you know he'll try to counter-attack so you'll wait before he throws his. See how far it goes? lol.

Just one example of this, it happens all the time for every move almost.

 

[JPOBS]

Sheik and Puff are peach's hardest matchups.

Fox would be the hardest if this was still 2007 and he didn't get blown up from random hit confirm/cc shenanigans.

edit: kage with dem theorybros inception mindgames

 

[unknown522]

@ shrouded: I think jiggs is peach's worst, but sheik is pretty close.

@ knightpreator: that MU is kind of gay. I think that matchup depends on stages, but since all the gay levels are banned now marth has the advantage. Marth just has the advantage or more stages than fox now and you're likely to strike to one of those stages game 1.

 

[Divinokage]

Sheik and Puff are peach's hardest matchups.

Fox would be the hardest if this was still 2007 and he didn't get blown up from random hit confirm/cc shenanigans.

edit: kage with dem theorybros inception mindgames

It's some good ****, a big reason why I play this game.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

cc punishe dude. If you don't know what that is, then go research

I didnt ask what cc is, i said u r wrong and peach cc is strong vs sheik.

I find this very odd that anyone thinks sheik is that tough for peach. Just b/c sheik can combo peach doesn't make her a hard mu.

Edit: and no one wants to respond to the fact that peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow, and that dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing

Imo it goes
Jiggs
Fox
Falcon
Marth/sheik (both 55/45)
Falco

 

[JPOBS]

Edit: and no one wants to respond to the fact that peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow, and that dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read, which is saying a lot, I was around when ICG still posted.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read, which is saying a lot, I was around when ICG still posted.

Why is it dumb? Do u believe dthrow effects the mu more then just 10 points? If so how do u take into account that peach is one of the harder characters to grab b/c of the low lag of fc's?

Also posts that just make blanket statements instead of giving a reason r far dumber posts. (Just saying)

 

[JPOBS]

and no one wants to respond to the fact that peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow, and that dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing

>and no one has responded to the fact
>implying your opinion is a fact
peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow
>get rid of dthrow? lolwut?
>dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing
>10 point swing? from PAL you mean?
>implying matchups can be quantified accurately with a 100 point system
>implying that the addition/removal of any one move arbitrarily affects the matchup by some quantifiable margin
>fact

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

and no one wants to respond to the fact that peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow, and that dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing

>and no one has responded to the fact
>implying your opinion is a fact
peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow
>get rid of dthrow? lolwut?
>dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing
>10 point swing? from PAL you mean?
>implying matchups can be quantified accurately with a 100 point system
>implying that the addition/removal of any one move arbitrarily affects the matchup by some quantifiable margin
>fact

Its not my opinion its armada's and amsah's.

I was talking about pal where the dthrow is different

People have been putting mu's in the 100 point system for years, so i am sorry if u have a problem with it.

And its pretty easy to see how the dthrow would make the mu in sheiks favor but not to the ridiculous degree many people r arguing on this thread

 

[leffen]

jesus you're so dumb jpobs

 

[JPOBS]

Sup leffen

 

[ShroudedOne]

All I'm going to say then is that Fox is really, really fast, and she's really slow. And the reason he beats her the worst is because she has insane difficulty hitting Fox. Not because of his "combos" or whatever (which he can still do, but whatever).

If you're hitting your aerials correctly, and spacing your uairs, SDI really shouldn't be that much of a problem (dair, uair). And nairing her before 50 is dumb anyways.

It's not some stupid number like 70:30, however. It's probably just a fair bit worse than Sheik.

 

[Froggy]

All I'm going to say then is that Fox is really, really fast, and she's really slow. And the reason he beats her the worst is because she has insane difficulty hitting Fox. Not because of his "combos" or whatever (which he can still do, but whatever).

If you're hitting your aerials correctly, and spacing your uairs, SDI really shouldn't be that much of a problem (dair, uair). And nairing her before 50 is dumb anyways.

It's not some stupid number like 70:30, however. It's probably just a fair bit worse than Sheik.

If you're not playing on a very big stage then Fox is speed isn't so hard to deal with. He doesn't have a lot of space to work with on Battlefield, YS or FOD. He gets chaingrabbed like hell on FD, and Peach lives really near forever on Dreamland and Pokemon Stadium should always be banned. Even with all this the speed is still a challenge but it's manageable.

I think Sheik beats Peach about as bad as Fox does.

 

[Xyzz]

Reliable killsetups and general combos from a grab are definitely altering a matchup a lot.
It adds a really good mindgame, few things that beat grab are good options for dealing with other stuff. Plus it adds a simple and reliable punish from shield, which can be really helpful as well.
And on top of that Sheik gains an upair that can kill?

Easily explains a shift of 10-20 points to me. (I think it's about 60 - 40 in ntsc, and 45 - 55 in PAL)

I'd say Peachs matchups against the top tiers look somewhat like that:

Losing:
- Jiggs (30 - 70)
- CF (35 - 65)
- Fox / NTSC sheik (40 - 60)

even:
- Marth (50 - 50 maybe 45 - 55)
- Falco (50 - 50)

wins:
- Pal Sheik (55 - 45 maybe 60 - 40)
- ICs (70 - 30)


I feel Fox is easier than CF since the upair can be avoided with good DI, while Falcon can reliably knee her everytime he gets a grab, which even kills earlier most of the time (or start combos at low percent).

 

[unknown522]

I didnt ask what cc is, i said u r wrong and peach cc is strong vs sheik.

I find this very odd that anyone thinks sheik is that tough for peach. Just b/c sheik can combo peach doesn't make her a hard mu.

Edit: and no one wants to respond to the fact that peach has the advantage if u get rid of dthrow, and that dthrow only makes it a 10 point swing

Imo it goes
Jiggs
Fox
Falcon
Marth/sheik (both 55/45)
Falco

wow. Read before you post

 

[ShroudedOne]

If you're not playing on a very big stage then Fox is speed isn't so hard to deal with. He doesn't have a lot of space to work with on Battlefield, YS or FOD. He gets chaingrabbed like hell on FD, and Peach lives really near forever on Dreamland and Pokemon Stadium should always be banned. Even with all this the speed is still a challenge but it's manageable.

I think Sheik beats Peach about as bad as Fox does.

I disagree regrding Battlefield somewhat. That top platform is kind of high. But yes, Yoshi's (if you can SDI well so you don't die at 2%) and FoD are pretty solid picks vs him. I don't think good Foxes get caught on FD that much, but it's riskier for him due to longer combos and less recovery options, as well as less movement options in general. It depends on the players, imo.

Dreamland is becoming popular for Foxes I've noticed, because it seems like they're willing to sacrifice quick kills for space to stay away from her and force her to move first (which makes sense). Stadium is just BS.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Its ok if u guys think the sheik mu is that bad for peach, just makes me look that much better when i win or do very well vs sheiks. (Makes me only getting 1 stocked by m2k look very good)