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I moved him up two spots. LOL
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Yea, but why do you think he's any higher than he is currently ranked? I guess I just have trouble seeing him as better than Luigi.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
The real question is who cares?
This is all opinion based anyway, nobody is 100% right.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Well that's why it's interesting though, isn't it? If we knew with 100% certainty then what would there be to care about? It's fascinating to get other people's perspectives.
I'm also curious regarding moving DK up at all, primarily because I've been thinking he's even worse than he's currently ranked. He just strikes me as a character with extremely few viable options.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I'd say Link is even more worse than he is currently placed
he is the worserest
imo
he is the worserest
imo
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
*looks at sig*
Bing
Smash Master
It just looks like he moved up so much further but yeah lol you're right... only two spots LMFAO
Idk. I think link is underrated. He does have a sucky wavedash but he has Multiple recovery options. Amazing grab combos. His bup. Sword character. Projectiles. Hard to combo if he takes safety measures. Overall I think he's more d tier
Bing
Smash Master
Link gets wrecked by many characters.. especially spacies. His recovery options are limited by stages, and that everything goes accordingly. He's slow and his projectiles are yes effective but also create lag if not used effectively. Also if you miss a grab, you can pretty much kiss your stock goodbye XD
I do love Link though
I do love Link though
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I agree, Link is bad.
Fortress | Sveet
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You know whos pretty good?
Fox
Fox
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Link should move down for sure, probably not into low tier but definitely below YL, imo. Here's my Take on Mid tier.
Doc
Ganon
Pika
Samus
Mario
DK
Luigi
YL
Link
Doc
Ganon
Pika
Samus
Mario
DK
Luigi
YL
Link
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Its pretty shocking how low Luigi is being rated in the last few lists.
Fortress | Sveet
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Yeah luigi is a lot better than people give him credit for. Sure he has low range, but mobility, priority, attack rate and combos are all pretty good, not to mention his recovery is beast and he can't be combod himself!
King5280
Smash Journeyman
I agree, I think Luigi is definitely not bad. Imo better than DK, the Links, and maaaybe Mario.
Yeah Luigi *****. Wtf is wrong with his vertebrae
@Range: Ftilt.
@Range: Ftilt.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
No ?
john!
Smash Hero
luigi's recovery is beast 1/8th of the time (15/64th of the time if you're recovering from high)
Fortress | Sveet
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Save ur jump, sideb til the edge, downb, double jump (optionally, fair/uair), double jump.
Obviously it can be beat, but its still miles better than ganon and doc's recoveries
Obviously it can be beat, but its still miles better than ganon and doc's recoveries
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Doesn't really change that most of the time (pretty much 7/8ths of the time lol) a well-timed ledge regrab kills Luigi's recovery.
People really are underrating Luigi though. He's really awkward to combo and his aerial priority is really good.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
He's swings fast in the air.
Is there a luigi who can pull off the downB? I thought the number of times you had to press B in order to rise in that move was stupid.
Is there a luigi who can pull off the downB? I thought the number of times you had to press B in order to rise in that move was stupid.
- Joined
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It's really not that hard.
Max?
Smash Champion
Luigi's recovery is pretty horrible imo. Get's ***** very easily and loses pretty soundly to a few very easy, low risk strategies.
As someone who play both Doc and Luigi A LOT, I'd say Doc recovers and is actually able to freely move and do stuff way more than Luigi
As someone who play both Doc and Luigi A LOT, I'd say Doc recovers and is actually able to freely move and do stuff way more than Luigi
Fortress | Sveet
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idk i used to think it was horrible before i played orly's luigi and he always saves his jump and has a downb charged. Unless you're fox and can ledgestall -> shine when he does downb, hes in pretty good shape. Luigi's downb does actually gain height unlike doc and mario's, and the standard strat that people use against doc's downb of just clearing the edge and edgehogging again (doc's downb is an illusion) will not work against luigi. Not to mention, if they want to play the "ill hit you off indefinitely and eventually you'll die" game won't work because odds are one in every 8 sidebs will get him back on stage and usually theres at least 2 sidebs per recovery cycle.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
Luigi's recovery is pretty beast. There's safe spots for missiles in every MU, and if you save the rest you can always get back. If his cyclone gets interrupted you can do it again after hit-stun and still rise.
stelzig
Smash Lord
Eh, I have to agree that doc has a better recovery than luigi too. Though I suppose it might be different in some mathcups.
What about the edgeguards that doesn't send luigi up by the way? Some characters do have semi-spikes and though I haven't really used it myself, you can also just jump into the attack (hoping that it doesn't end up being a misfire I suppose, LOL) and see luigi fall.
Doc's pills help so much more than luigi's fireball and it makes him harder to hit him with anything (I know you can hit through them). I just don't see how luigi can really defend himself during his recovery. There's plenty of lag in that sideB and it isn't hard to beat while the hitbox is active (not that being hit by the hitbox is even bad for you).
Can't say i'm an expert on either character, but I just don't see luigi's recovery being great.
Edit: The same goes for downB. Why not just hit him out of it? This is usually also possible against doc and mario instead of the regrab thing.
Edit2: I'm not so opposed to the idea that it is better than ganon's recovery though.
What about the edgeguards that doesn't send luigi up by the way? Some characters do have semi-spikes and though I haven't really used it myself, you can also just jump into the attack (hoping that it doesn't end up being a misfire I suppose, LOL) and see luigi fall.
Doc's pills help so much more than luigi's fireball and it makes him harder to hit him with anything (I know you can hit through them). I just don't see how luigi can really defend himself during his recovery. There's plenty of lag in that sideB and it isn't hard to beat while the hitbox is active (not that being hit by the hitbox is even bad for you).
Can't say i'm an expert on either character, but I just don't see luigi's recovery being great.
Edit: The same goes for downB. Why not just hit him out of it? This is usually also possible against doc and mario instead of the regrab thing.
Edit2: I'm not so opposed to the idea that it is better than ganon's recovery though.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I think the most interesting thing about the tierlist is that this community loves to spit bull out of both sides of their mouth.
On one hand, people REFUSE to accept peach rising in the tierlist because of tournament success, and they basically all say "peach still sucks, armada is just godly"
And then in the very same post, they put Doc outstandingly higher on the list than Mario, despite being practically the same character. I find it hard to believe that Doc is SO much better than mario, some people have him as above Ganon/Samus and have mario as low as DK and s***.
It basically boils down to the fact Shroomed *****, and mario has been underepresented for eternity.
But hey, Peach sucks mirite guys?
On one hand, people REFUSE to accept peach rising in the tierlist because of tournament success, and they basically all say "peach still sucks, armada is just godly"
And then in the very same post, they put Doc outstandingly higher on the list than Mario, despite being practically the same character. I find it hard to believe that Doc is SO much better than mario, some people have him as above Ganon/Samus and have mario as low as DK and s***.
It basically boils down to the fact Shroomed *****, and mario has been underepresented for eternity.
But hey, Peach sucks mirite guys?
Fortress | Sveet
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Peach is pretty terrible dude, what kind of terrible character loses to fox?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Dat 7-3 unwinnable matchup.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
There is a pretty big difference between Doc and Mario just because of how much more easily Doc KOs. It makes the difference between winning and losing heaps of MUs.I think the most interesting thing about the tierlist is that this community loves to spit bull out of both sides of their mouth.
On one hand, people REFUSE to accept peach rising in the tierlist because of tournament success, and they basically all say "peach still sucks, armada is just godly"
And then in the very same post, they put Doc outstandingly higher on the list than Mario, despite being practically the same character. I find it hard to believe that Doc is SO much better than mario, some people have him as above Ganon/Samus and have mario as low as DK and s***.
It basically boils down to the fact Shroomed *****, and mario has been underepresented for eternity.
But hey, Peach sucks mirite guys?
stelzig
Smash Lord
I've always played alot better with doc than with mario and he was originally my best character - the only one I won matches with at my first tournament (RoX4) IIRC. As such, I have always found him better. I was also pretty surprised when someone recently said that every good doc has a good mario since I really don't find my own playstyle with doc very transferable to mario.
Call me biased, but shroomed didn't have *that* much influence on my opinion of doc. He has reassured me in my opinion, and a good mario could shake my perception a little, but that is all.
Call me biased, but shroomed didn't have *that* much influence on my opinion of doc. He has reassured me in my opinion, and a good mario could shake my perception a little, but that is all.
- Joined
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- 5,493
.........I....uh....wow....I think the most interesting thing about the tierlist is that this community loves to spit bull out of both sides of their mouth.
On one hand, people REFUSE to accept peach rising in the tierlist because of tournament success, and they basically all say "peach still sucks, armada is just godly"
And then in the very same post, they put Doc outstandingly higher on the list than Mario, despite being practically the same character. I find it hard to believe that Doc is SO much better than mario, some people have him as above Ganon/Samus and have mario as low as DK and s***.
It basically boils down to the fact Shroomed *****, and mario has been underepresented for eternity.
But hey, Peach sucks mirite guys?
How in the world do you think that Doc/Mario are "practically the same character"?
Actually, no, you're right. I guess Marth isn't SO much better than Roy, either.
I'm going to say the same thing I've been saying: Take all tournament results with a heavy grain of salt. One person doing outstandingly well =/= the character is better than we thought, automatically. This also applies to Pika/Doc, but Peach has had much, much more representation than those two, which is why I think that it's fair less likely that her placing is wrong.
I will only be willing to give you that Marth and Peach stand on exactly equal footing in terms of tiers, and that neither is "better."
Max?
Smash Champion
JPOBS I agree with you about a lot of things; mostly about how fake the smash community is.
But I can't get behind you on the Doc/Mario thing. Mario's pretty fake. Doc is also pretty fake tho, so I think it balances out.
But I can't get behind you on the Doc/Mario thing. Mario's pretty fake. Doc is also pretty fake tho, so I think it balances out.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol at comparing marth/roy to doc/mario.
Honestly, yes they are practically the same character. Sure they have sightly different attributes (duh!) but they are very slight, and even Doc and Mario mains (lol mario mains) will tell you this. I conceed grim tuesday's point that doc kills better though.
You say "one person does not a character make" or something, but let me ask you this:
What is the exact quota then? How many people does it take to "prove" that a character is better than we thought? 2? 3? 79?
Becaue honestly, I don't buy that at all. Literally 2 people were playing Puff well when she went from like 8th/9th to 3rd. Literally 1 person was playing Pika well when we moved her up. I don't want to get crazy, but literally one person is playing YL in literally one matchup, and yet quite a few people have been musing about moving YL up.
Like, I don't really care about Peach being above marth or whatever. I'm just saying, lets not kid ourselves. There isn't some magical threshold of people/tournaments that is needed to prove that some characters are better than we thought. It could (and has) take as little as 1 person to do well.
edit:
Word, I get you OTG. I think a heavy bias exists for the low tiers though. One person doign well with low tier = "undiscovered character potential". One person doing well with high tier "this person is amazing."
Whatevs. I concede the Doc/Mario argument then.
Honestly, yes they are practically the same character. Sure they have sightly different attributes (duh!) but they are very slight, and even Doc and Mario mains (lol mario mains) will tell you this. I conceed grim tuesday's point that doc kills better though.
You say "one person does not a character make" or something, but let me ask you this:
What is the exact quota then? How many people does it take to "prove" that a character is better than we thought? 2? 3? 79?
Becaue honestly, I don't buy that at all. Literally 2 people were playing Puff well when she went from like 8th/9th to 3rd. Literally 1 person was playing Pika well when we moved her up. I don't want to get crazy, but literally one person is playing YL in literally one matchup, and yet quite a few people have been musing about moving YL up.
Like, I don't really care about Peach being above marth or whatever. I'm just saying, lets not kid ourselves. There isn't some magical threshold of people/tournaments that is needed to prove that some characters are better than we thought. It could (and has) take as little as 1 person to do well.
edit:
Word, I get you OTG. I think a heavy bias exists for the low tiers though. One person doign well with low tier = "undiscovered character potential". One person doing well with high tier "this person is amazing."
Whatevs. I concede the Doc/Mario argument then.
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I don't think that there is an exact number, but I certainly think that there should be more than just one occurrence of a situation before we start making conclusions. I'm not exactly in the "let's raise Pika because of Axe" camp, either. Moving YL is kind of dumb.
I'll concede on the moving characters up thing, because this is only conjecture on my part, and you may very well be right that Peach deserves a higher spot. I'm just saying that we shouldn't immediately jump the gun, even if tier lists should be more fluid than they are now.
I don't think the differences between Doc and Mario are that slight at all, and make the difference between Doc being somewhat viable in this meta, and Mario not really being viable. Being able to kill is huge, and having a good projectile is almost just as big. A lot of Doc's moves are just better, even though they're the same moves on the surface.
Argh. Why don't more people play this game, so we can have an actual player pool.
EDIT: In all honesty, Jpobs, you're probably right.
I'll concede on the moving characters up thing, because this is only conjecture on my part, and you may very well be right that Peach deserves a higher spot. I'm just saying that we shouldn't immediately jump the gun, even if tier lists should be more fluid than they are now.
I don't think the differences between Doc and Mario are that slight at all, and make the difference between Doc being somewhat viable in this meta, and Mario not really being viable. Being able to kill is huge, and having a good projectile is almost just as big. A lot of Doc's moves are just better, even though they're the same moves on the surface.
Argh. Why don't more people play this game, so we can have an actual player pool.
EDIT: In all honesty, Jpobs, you're probably right.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
The added power is extra huge too, because it allows Doc to get quick edgeguard gimps, something Mario seems to struggle with and when you're going up against characters like Fox who are good at controlling the whole match and probably are going to get more hits than you are, being able to gimp is huge.
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
lol
Bing
Smash Master
Okay.. the comparison of Roy to Marth was kind of ridiculous. However I see the point of Doc = Mario..ish.
Like they both have very similar movement, matchups and amongst other things, however I would say they are different characters. The power difference that Doc has, and like it was said earlier, makes for easier gimps. Combine that with the fact that Doc has a decent ko move(fair)(I say decent because it can sometimes be difficult to land) which on Mario, the fair is a brutal spike that sends them no where...
Like they both have very similar movement, matchups and amongst other things, however I would say they are different characters. The power difference that Doc has, and like it was said earlier, makes for easier gimps. Combine that with the fact that Doc has a decent ko move(fair)(I say decent because it can sometimes be difficult to land) which on Mario, the fair is a brutal spike that sends them no where...
Fortress | Sveet
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If mario had an easy one-two kill combo, he would be better than doc probably. But hey, that never stopped marth.
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Pills are infinitely better than fireballs. And Doc is much better at ledge guarding with bair.