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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
OK

I called Pikachu

I called Yoshi

I'm gonna call Game and Watch now. Underrated. Below Ness and Kirby. Seriously? He will rise. Or maybe not because he's black.

(serious post(?))
 
john!

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
Max? said:
John you're one of my favorite posters on the boards.

I don't know how you're able to type or post when you're jerking off two ***** and sucking one at the same time tho
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i could post up a huge long post about jerking people off, but then people who have never jerked anyone off and have only seen porn of it would come in here and tell me i'm doing it wrong, so good day smashboards
 
twizzlerj

twizzlerj

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
349
Location
Freehold NJ
john! said:
i could post up a huge long post about jerking people off, but then people who have never jerked anyone off and have only seen porn of it would come in here and tell me i'm doing it wrong, so good day smashboards
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Thank you John
 
C

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
2,247
john! said:
i could post up a huge long post about jerking people off, but then people who have never jerked anyone off and have only seen porn of it would come in here and tell me i'm doing it wrong, so good day smashboards
Click to expand...
Somebody give this man an award.
 
twizzlerj

twizzlerj

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
349
Location
Freehold NJ
Making it my sig i don't think that is close enough to a award but oh well showing appreciation for a amazing post
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
There's no way Mario and Luigi are better than Ganon. They both lose the match-up to him first off and I'm fairly certain Ganon has better match-ups overall than these 2.
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Warhawk said:
The way you set up your list was how I thought it should be set up, by breaking it down into viable, semi-viable, and unviable characters and I think it works very well. I'm curious though as to your reasoning for putting Mario and Luigi higher up and above Pikachu when Pikachu probably has a faster and better offensive game than them which was your reasoning for moving them higher and Pika's still below Ganon on your list.
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Yeah, good point actually. I wasn't thinking when I placed Pikachu, I guess.

The Star King said:
OK

I called Pikachu

I called Yoshi

I'm gonna call Game and Watch now. Underrated. Below Ness and Kirby. Seriously? He will rise. Or maybe not because he's black.

(serious post(?))
Click to expand...
I played with him the other day because I was thinking the same thing. He is as fragile as Pichu because of his weight, shield and tech-roll. I don't think his "eehhhh" moveset makes up for that.

Divinokage said:
There's no way Mario and Luigi are better than Ganon. They both lose the match-up to him first off and I'm fairly certain Ganon has better match-ups overall than these 2.
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Yet you think that Doc is better than Ganon?
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Feb 27, 2008
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26,560
it's pretty common opinion to think that doc is a step above Luigi and Mario in tournament viability.
 
Max?

Max?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
2,255
Location
Falco Bair
Doc/Mario Stuff

The general consensus about these characters is that Mario combos better and has a slightly better recovery, while Doc has better projectile, KOing moves and edgeguarding tools. However, both Mario's are short, fat and slower than most of the top tiers above them. This means they have less range, are slower and can get comboed pretty free by someone who know's their weight class. For that reason, it's really hard to play them in an aggro/combo heavy style, and frankly I don't think they are suited for it. If you try to fight an opponent who knows the matchup in a head to head, you will most likely lose unless you're better than them.

IMO the optimal way to play the Mario's is a shield heavy turtle style that leads to quick 2 or 3 hit combos that end in a finisher and then set them up offstage for edgeguards. Some of these are universal between the two (dthrow -> dsmash, uair -> dsmash/fsmash) but Doc gains a bunch more from his janky Usmash and it's weird grounded properties and they also tend to do more damage, get people off stage faster and thus set up into his better edgeguarding.

Mario can rack up damage quickly, but his utilt stops being effective against most of the cast past 50% (even lower on floaty characters) since he can't combo into anything that will KO or set up into KO. He lacks reliable setups into his Fsmash outside of % windows in the mid %'s (which on work on FFers), and imo he struggles vs. a lot of floaties since he doesn't have tools to KO them off the top. Doc on the other hand has the Fair which KO's off the top reliably. It can be comboed into from Uairs, grounded Usmash or Usmash OOS, or best of all from one of his throws (which works on everyone in the cast outside of Luigi/Samus).

A few other little things I'll throw in here since I have to run to work:
- Pills > Fireballs in terms of damage/priority
- Mario's "better" recovery is negligible since both recoveries are pretty horrible at the en of the day imo, but the extra cape/wall jump upB jank def help. However, I do feel Doc's magnet hands sweet spot the ledge from a lill lower.
- Mario's down angled Ftilt is terrible and doesn't do anything (this applies to Luigi as well), Doc's functions normally and is great for hitting spacies out off sweetspot illusions/angled firefox's
- I mentioned this before, but Doc's utilt can combo just like Mario's with proper spacing and he can Fair people out of it at mid/higher%'s, so yeah, it's pretty good.
- At the end of the day Doc's combo game is just as good as Mario's if not better since he has better finishers that are more reliable to combo into. Juggling someone to 100% is great, but when you can't KO, and they come back and **** you that sucks. By comparison, doing a 60% combo and then getting a free edgeguard sounds pretty good, and is more conducive for winning.
- Doc's cape is sooooo much better. hitting people below the stage allows him to cape a number of characters recoveries that Mario can't touch, a big one that comes to mind immediately is Marth, who is pretty much dead if you force him to upB. The more I think about it, I don't think I ever get capes with Mario.
- Bair's should be obvious, Doc's sends lower, Mario's pops people up. This allows Doc to do things like Bair -> Pivot Dsmash at lower/mid %'s on a lot of the cast (another quick 2 hitter) while Mario gets ****. In terms of edgeguarding, Doc's chains into itself, and even if only one connects it forces people into situations where they have to jump or react immediately or die, while Mario's sends people out and gives them more time to recover/think about what they will do.

Obviously if you hit someone with a bair when they don't have a double jump they will most likely die from either of their bairs. This applies to almost every move in the game, I'm talking about in situations where you JUST get them offstage and they have full access to their options.

Anyway, there is probably more I'm missing here. They are both pretty bad at the end of the day, I just think you'll have more success with Doc if you choose to use him. Tho you'd probably have real success if you use Falco or something.

I know Scorp makes Mario look like a combo king (Scorp vs. Tai on Yoshi's omg), but when paired up against a player who is around/above/just below his level, he resorts to one thing that Mario CAN do effectively, WD back Fsmash. Just watch Scorp vs. SS from 2010, a large majority if the matches he wins are done exclusively with WD back Fsmash.

I'm out.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
It seems pretty sound to me. A lot of it is things I've noticed/been told by Doc users, so it makes sense. But I learned some things too. Thank you.
 
Geenareeno

Geenareeno

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
1,102
Location
Saskatoon, SK
Indeed, good post. Shifting attention to Mario vs. Luigi, I don't think anyone can play Luigi even close to his full potential. He might be right below Ganon/Pika.
 
Kal

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
When did Grim Tuesday sig me? I feel kind of violated.
 
Mahone

Mahone

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,940
Location
Blacksburg, VA
just to add to the doc vs mario thing...

against puff, mario gets *****...

but dr.mario ***** puff (well maybe its even, but its much better than mario)

Mario can't kill jiggs ever... downthrow nair will kill at like 150 or something, cuz you have so much time to sdi it

Doc will kill jiggs with downthrow fair at like 70... i don't actually know all the exact numbers and its based on stage or whatever, but id say that doc kills at an average of half the percent mario does

also pills are so much better than fireballs vs jiggs and im guessin against most characters
 
Mahone

Mahone

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Blacksburg, VA
@grim

i guess if hes at the ledge he can bthrow, but from the middle of the stage dthrow nair probably kills first? im not sure, but both are easy to perfectly di since there is so much time... also im not used being grabbed near the edge cuz mario bros don't like the edge vs puff

all those kill moves are pretty risky and not the easiest to hit if they are just spacing out with bairs...

a lot of times i get hit with that ****ty hitbox of marios and i don't go anywhere anyway... i will admit that his main kill is wd back fsmash though, but my point is that its not as good as doc's grab fair and spaced fair

@ace

haha, ya, you can make it harder for them, but if they can react quickly they can get it... same with dthrow knee vs puff at high percents

also at low percents doc can dthrow dair if you don't di well, i think that does a lot of damage
 
Mahone

Mahone

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Messages
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Location
Blacksburg, VA
Sorry for double post... this is my top 5 with reasoning

1. :fox: - Doesn't have any seriously disadvantaged matchups, has strong matchups against puff, peach, falcon. Is never at a severe disadvantage on any stage, has strong counterpicks

2. :falco: - Has mostly evenish matchups with everyone, decent counterpicks, not terrible on any stage in the new stagelist

3. :marth: - Loses to sheik, otherwise, mostly evenish matchups, possibly has advantage on fd against fox and falco which can't be banned in bo5 in current ruleset, weak on dreamland in some matchups (i.e. puff)

4. :sheik: - Slight disadvantage against fox/falco, strong matchups against falcon and marth, weak matchup against puff and ics. Is best against most low and mid teirs.

5. :jigglypuff: - Beats sheik, loses to fox, otherwise, mostly evenish matchups, is not as good as other top tiers vs mid and low tiers, evenish with some mid/low tiers, very good on dreamland in most matchups, weak on stadium and yoshis in some matchups
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Yeah i've been thinking about marth a lot recently and agree he is underrated due to lack of results. I can see him belonging in the top 3-ish
 
leffen

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I've played Marth a bit recently (won a tournament with some good players using him exclusively yesterday) and in my eyes Marth is becoming more and more clear as 2nd best

Yes, he does have less options to be explored than the spacies but his neutral game is just so incredibly strong that he really doesn't need them.

Hopefully I can get some vids recorded soon, I honestly had a perfect powershield rate in almost all falco sets I played yesterday, I'd like for everyone to see how incredibly good it is.
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
leffen said:
I've played Marth a bit recently (won a tournament with some good players using him exclusively yesterday) and in my eyes Marth is becoming more and more clear as 2nd best

Yes, he does have less options to be explored than the spacies but his neutral game is just so incredibly strong that he really doesn't need them.

Hopefully I can get some vids recorded soon, I honestly had a perfect powershield rate in almost all falco sets I played yesterday, I'd like for everyone to see how incredibly good it is.
Click to expand...
If Marth's second, what is your full list?


Yoshi and ICs are both so underrated because of their difficulty. I think the same goes for Ness, but I don't think he's as high as them.
 
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