Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Svetsunov]

Ness isn't difficult.. he doesn't have anything special

Pretty much this, from my experience he doesn't really bring anything new. I have a friend who can pull off some pretty sick gimps with PK fire though.

One thing that really bothers me about Ness is his ledge game and how easy it is to gimp him, though it could just be im playing with some horrible Ness players.

His aerials dont seem too bad though, Bair and Fair both have some pretty nice uses and his Dair has some nice priority.

Anyway just my two cents.

 

[Little England]

Ness isn't difficult.. he doesn't have anything special

Untrue. Ness has so much untapped "technology". Talk to Mofo sometime.

 

[leffen]

Ness has untapped potential like Peach did before Armada.

Both characters gain lots on perfect precision and utilizing their quirkiness in to the max in each matchup.

 

[Svetsunov]

Untrue. Ness has so much untapped "technology". Talk to Mofo sometime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbqze0rnfQs

Pretty interesting match to examine, though i think both players were slumping a bit.

Lots of Fair. Specifically shffl Fair into an immediate grab and Fthrow. Cool stuff.

This makes Ness' grab game look pretty good though, i'm gonna look for some more mofo videos.

 

[Stevo]

I feel that Ness needs to recover high much more than most characters and most people tend to try to recover too low with him.

Not that it makes much difference.

 

[KrIsP!]

Ness can Pull off some crazy **** with his djc and with his pretty good aerials, good fsmash and bthrow I really like ness but he can't recover or edge guard well without extreme precision and with that it doesn't quite stand up with other chars.

 

[Bones0]

Ness's edgeguarding is only really weak off stage, and even then it isn't that weak, but more just risky. On stage, his bat does mad work. Against Marth (the only matchup I know), you can fair/bait high recoveries and you can just HRB his up-B literally every time...

 

[Strong Badam]

I will never, ever put Marth above either space animal on my list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox and falco both don't have bad matchups

Marth loses to sheik
Sheik loses to puff, ics
Puff loses to fox

Peach loses to fox, sheik, puff, marth
Falcon loses to fox, falco, sheik
Ics lose to fox, falco, peach, samus, ganon

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth probably loses to Puff too.

In regards to Ness, he is one of those characters that can look really good against people who don't know the match-up, but as soon as they learn the match-up you realize why he is ****. Playing against my state's top player, I haven't landed a Yoyo glitch in months; when I first picked him up, I was averaging 1-2 a match.

Ness' recovery can be greatly improved if you are good at aiming PK Thunder (straight into the ledge from every angle, including above the ledge) and delaying it to out-last invincibility. The problem is when you get hit by an attack and you aren't close enough to the stage to air dodge, but you aren't far enough away to avoid edge-guards.

 

[Mahone]

Marth doesn't lose to puff, i will defend this to my death

 

[ShroudedOne]

1) Fox
2) Falco (I don't think he'll ever be #1, in my opinion)
3) Sheik (I'm not 100% if she should be above or below Puff, but she certainly has less problematic MUs, that being ICs. Sheik/Puff is not that bad)
4) Jigglypuff (Slightly overrated, but still good)

5/6) Marth/Peach (I'm not being cheeky, I seriously think these two are even. Marth has slightly better MUs vs spacies [mainly Fox], and an amazing neutral, combo, and edge guarding game, his weaknesses lying mainly in the holes in his hitboxes [no lasting hitboxes hurts], long cooldown on moves, and a less than stellar recovery. Peach's neutral is lacking vs most chars [her neutral vs Falco is actually really good, imo], and her initiation is poor, but she has 3rd best shield pressure in the game, and an amazing followup/combo/edge guard game [edge guarding is somewhat worse than Marth's, but not too badly]. She also has literally frame safe aerials, and relatively low cooldown on most of her moves. For now, I think this makes the two even).

7) ICs (Underrated, extremely strong punishes)
8) Falcon (Slightly less underrated, extremely strong punishes, gets WRECKED by spacies, though, so I can't put him above ICs)
9) Doc (may be better than Falcon. Not sure.)
10) Ganon (Grab game is really, really underrated)
11) Pika
12) Samus (Just OK, imo)
13) Luigi (Not sure if he is or is not better than Mario. Needs more development)
14/15) Mario/DK
16) Young Link (His speed puts him over Link, imo. Can't get camped/isn't subject to keepaway as hard)
17) Link
18) Yoshi (I think he's better than people give him credit for, with his potential for tight shield pressure, pretty good combos, and an aerial CC. I think his defensive options seem to be better than what he's given credit for, but not being able to jump OoS still hurts. Light shielding/parrying help mitigate this to some degree)
19/20) Zelda/Roy (Who knows, really)
21) Mewtwo (Yeah, that's right. Below Zelda)
22) Ness
23) G&W
24) Bowser
25) Pichu
26) Kirby (Last three are interchangeable. I advise to not take this list that seriously past Yoshi)

Just so I have it on record, not so much that it's important.

 

[Max?]

Doc is not better than Falcon. He is 9th on the tier list.

Marth beats/goes even with Fox, goes even/loses to Falco, probably loses to Puff. Marth's are arguing that he loses to Icies as well, I think a lot of his matchups are overrated and not the other way around.

 

[twizzlerj]

a lot of people think marth is great and i just don't see it which is annoying because im positive he is my second best character. Im not at a high level but most of the time when i watch high level the non marth players are not dumb and own marth all day.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, when I said Marth does better against spacies, I really just meant Fox. He definitely beats Peach there. I also think he loses pretty soundly to Puff. Don't know about Falco. I think that Marth only beats (in the head to head) Peach and Falcon (among the top 8). Everyone else is either a loss or even. Similarly, Peach doesn't beat anyone in the top 8, besides ICs. Everything else is a loss or even.

And yeah, Doc is most likely worse than Falcon. Do spacies combo him as hard as they do Falcon, though?

 

[twizzlerj]

Peach does better against falco then marth does i think as for the whole head to head marth peach i think its pretty close turnips are really good. Projectiles are annoying for marth even if he has the option to swat them away constantly or power shield (lasers) they are still there

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach doesn't "win" vs Falco, it's even, but I can see Marth losing (vs Falco). As for the head to head, he can just punish her for pulling turnips (29 frames of pull lag). He is superb at juggling her, comboing her, and swatting her recovery attempts, and turnips are her only direct answer to his sword.

He sucks at killing her though, and gets comboed pretty well, but I think he edges that out slightly.

Another thing I need to say about turnips: When she holds a turnip, Peach loses all of her aerials, as well as her dash attack and downsmash. It becomes infinitely easier to trap her once she has a turnip. Sure, she can float and do aerials while floating, but you can just hit her before she floats, especially since that's one of the few, obvious options she has while holding one. So you can account for it.

 

[Geenareeno]

Shrouded what about Ganon's grab game do you think is underrated?

 

[twizzlerj]

a few of the flaws you names shroudedone can kinda be overlooked as long as the spacing is good

 

[ShroudedOne]

His down throw gives him a guaranteed follow up on almost every, if not everyone, and he's got really good CGs (spacies and Sheik are the notable ones). I don't think he excels at getting grabs by any means, but I think the guaranteed things he gets from down throw, along with his other redeeming qualities, make him not quite as awful as people tend to think. Um...he still gets ***** by spacies, is easy to combo in general, and doesn't have a recovery, but he's kind of good a ****** those who **** him off of a hit.

@twizzlerj: Yeah, but in that scenario, Peach has to outspace Marth by a larger margin than he does her, due to his range advantage.

 

[Strong Badam]

1) Fox
2) Falco (I don't think he'll ever be #1, in my opinion)
3) Sheik (I'm not 100% if she should be above or below Puff, but she certainly has less problematic MUs, that being ICs. Sheik/Puff is not that bad)
4) Jigglypuff (Slightly overrated, but still good)

5/6) Marth/Peach (I'm not being cheeky, I seriously think these two are even. Marth has slightly better MUs vs spacies [mainly Fox], and an amazing neutral, combo, and edge guarding game, his weaknesses lying mainly in the holes in his hitboxes [no lasting hitboxes hurts], long cooldown on moves, and a less than stellar recovery. Peach's neutral is lacking vs most chars [her neutral vs Falco is actually really good, imo], and her initiation is poor, but she has 3rd best shield pressure in the game, and an amazing followup/combo/edge guard game [edge guarding is somewhat worse than Marth's, but not too badly]. She also has literally frame safe aerials, and relatively low cooldown on most of her moves. For now, I think this makes the two even).

7) ICs (Underrated, extremely strong punishes)
8) Falcon (Slightly less underrated, extremely strong punishes, gets WRECKED by spacies, though, so I can't put him above ICs)
9) Doc (may be better than Falcon. Not sure.)
10) Ganon (Grab game is really, really underrated)
11) Pika
12) Samus (Just OK, imo)
13) Luigi (Not sure if he is or is not better than Mario. Needs more development)
14) Mario
15) Young Link (His speed puts him over Link, imo. Can't get camped/isn't subject to keepaway as hard)
16) Link
17) Yoshi (I think he's better than people give him credit for, with his potential for tight shield pressure, pretty good combos, and an aerial CC. I think his defensive options seem to be better than what he's given credit for, but not being able to jump OoS still hurts. Light shielding/parrying help mitigate this to some degree)
18/19) Zelda/Roy (Who knows, really)
20) Mewtwo (Yeah, that's right. Below Zelda)
21) Ness
22) G&W
23) Bowser
24) Pichu
25) Kirby (Last three are interchangeable. I advise to not take this list that seriously past Yoshi)

Just so I have it on record, not so much that it's important.

yo

any reason DK isn't on your list?

 

[twizzlerj]

any reason no one else caught that till now lol oops.....

 

[ShroudedOne]

isdngkdjngksdjbfkjsdfbksdjbgkjsdbgksdjgbsdkjbgdkjsgb

I KNEW I MISNUMBERED IT

"Why are there only 25 slots in my list? Oh well."

Idiot...

 

[twizzlerj]

yea didnt catch it most lists i just look at like top 9 and go yea thats all there is to it

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I usually just go down to Ganon, then look at where they put Kirby. So, I'd notice if they were missing Ganon or Kirby.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, when I said Marth does better against spacies, I really just meant Fox. He definitely beats Peach there. I also think he loses pretty soundly to Puff. Don't know about Falco. I think that Marth only beats (in the head to head) Peach and Falcon (among the top 8). Everyone else is either a loss or even. Similarly, Peach doesn't beat anyone in the top 8, besides ICs. Everything else is a loss or even.

And yeah, Doc is most likely worse than Falcon. Do spacies combo him as hard as they do Falcon, though?

Fox does better vs. Marth than Falco.

 

[ShroudedOne]

As in, Marth beats Falco? Or Marth/Falco is even, and Fox beats Marth?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As in, fox is the ****, **** the rest

 

[Warhawk]

Shrouded what about Ganon's grab game do you think is underrated?

Well I mean he can chainthrow most of the cast to some extent. Plus down throw leads into a guaranteed aerial on most if not all of the characters.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Once Ganon mains get really good, we'll be able to perfectly guess Falco's DI. Then any grab on Falco will result in a KO.

 

[Bones0]

As in, Marth beats Falco? Or Marth/Falco is even, and Fox beats Marth?

Too hard to tell. The matchups are way too close and have too many variables for me to comfortably say it goes either way.

 

[ShroudedOne]

But, between the two, you're saying that Fox performs better, against Marth, than Falco does against Marth. Right?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Once Ganon mains get really good, we'll be able to perfectly guess Falco's DI. Then any grab on Falco will result in a KO.

When I watch other players I tend to unconsciously make decisions and compare them against what actually happens. I think a lot of players do this. I have found myself watching ganon players after dthrows on spacies thinking "i would have regrabbed that DI". The low percents are difficult to do on reaction, but it starts to get reasonably easy to do around 50% i'd say and iirc it lasts until just over 100% in which point it can lead directly into downb and other KO moves.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

JC Grabs can still lead past 100, at least on Falco. 120 or so should be guaranteed. At some of the lower percentages you don't have time to react, so have to guess. If you've seen a player play often enough, you should know their habits and be able to predict their DI.

In my opinion, more Ganon mains should use it against spacies. I know I should do it a lot more than I do at the moment.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

such a good thread

 

[Geenareeno]

No Ganon's chaingrab because it's really hard and if you miss you just lost a lot of guaranteed damage or a stock. Although I'm starting to think it's necessary to perfect it on Sheik if you want to win against her. ****ing ******** matchup.

 

[Tekk]

Marth doesn't lose to puff, i will defend this to my death

This, this and this.
Marth/Puff is extremely even, marth players are just bad (at that matchup).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Does anyone have a video of a Marth playing the match-up right?

It doesn't have to be high level, I just want to compare the tactics with M2K vs. HBox.

 

[ShroudedOne]

M2K vs Hbox, Marth/Puff, has happened?